Leave Babylon Now!!! Lest Ye Perish In The Coming Destruction!!!!!
True believers in Jesus all over the world belong to the heavenly mount Zion, where we reside spiritually, our eternal home, not our physical earth address.
Any believer in Jesus who physically lives on any part of the planet spiritually dwells in the same place as all true believers in King Jesus/Yeshuah dwell, and that is, the holy mount of the LORD called Zion:
“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion”
—Psalm 2:6
So there is a special spiritual city where believers in the King of Kings and Lord of Lords dwell upon, the holy mount of Zion (see REV 14:1), the new Jerusalem, where God comes to dwell with us Immanuel forever and ever amen! Hallelujah! Praise be to the one sits upon the throne and to the Lamb:
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
—Revelation 5:13
So just as there is a spiritual city that maps or correlates to those who can enter the gates of the new Jerusalem whom have right to the tree of life and may enter through the gates into the city (see REV 22:1), there is a spiritual city that maps to and draws from peoples all over the physical earth who dwell in that spiritual city that is at enmity with God, that God-forsaken place known as Babylon. Leave Babylon now partake not in her destruction (see REV 18:4)!
In the Book of Revelation, spiritual, heavenly places, map to physical places upon the earth. For example, in the temple of God in heaven in chapter 11 of Revelation, John was told to measure the temple of God and count the worshippers there but to exclude the outer courts, which was given to the Gentiles. The courts of God’s temple in heaven correspond to people upon the earth—the inner courts are where the true believers are (mount Zion) and the outer courts have been given over to the gentiles for 42 months (see REV 11:2).
Mystery spiritual Babylon feeds upon the nations of the earth and is incarnate in those who repenteth not of their sins, the laundry list of which is as follows from chapter 21 of Revelation:
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
—Revelation 21:8
People spiritually reside in one of two places, either Babylon or Jerusalem. The overriding exhortation of the Scriptures is to leave Babylon and make the way to Zion:
6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.
—Jeremiah 4:6-7
Verse 6 above says to point the way to Zion (Jesus is the way to Zion), for great destruction is coming from the north, the Destroyer is on the way. Read the rest of chapter 4 of Jeremiah. The destruction it describes encompasses the whole earth, not just one nation:
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
—Jeremiah 4:23-27
Later on in Jeremiah:
29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
—Jeremiah 25:29-31
And here in chapter 50 of Jeremiah, you have the exhortation to make the way to Zion and to leave Babylon:
3 For out of the north there cometh up a nation against her, which shall make her land desolate, and none shall dwell therein: they shall remove, they shall depart, both man and beast.
4 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God.
5 They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.
6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
7 All that found them have devoured them: and their adversaries said, We offend not, because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, even the LORD, the hope of their fathers.
8 Remove out of the midst of Babylon, and go forth out of the land of the Chaldeans, and be as the he goats before the flocks.
—Jeremiah 50:3-8
Again, in chapter 51, the exhortation is to come out of Babylon to avoid the fierce anger of the LORD:
44 And I will punish Bel in Babylon, and I will bring forth out of his mouth that which he hath swallowed up: and the nations shall not flow together any more unto him: yea, the wall of Babylon shall fall.
45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.
—Jeremiah 51:44-45
In the Book of Revelation, Mystery Babylon is described as the woman who rides on the beast and is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth (see REV 17:18).
Mystery Babylon is a spiritual city that controls and influences the kings of the earth, the merchants of the earth, etc. (something the NWO is scheming and feeding upon right now) but it’s not a physical city or country on earth like NYC or America.
When Babylon is split into 3 parts in the greatest earthquake of all time, ALL the cities on earth will collapse (see REV 16:19).
So what I am saying is the exhortation throughout Scripture to leave Babylon speaks to everyone on earth who has not left Babylon yet:
“And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”
—Revelation 18:4
Come out from Babylon so as not to partake in her destruction declares the Scriptures! Make the way to Zion before it is too late!
Surely the Scriptures urge us to make the way to the heavenly Zion, not the earthly Jerusalem.
And so likewise, the call to leave Babylon is a call to a spiritual city for it cannot just be a call just to leave America. If so, and you are an American, are you planning on leaving America? I for one do not subscribe to a nuclear holocaust in America for my Bible says no weapon that is formed against me will prevail (see Isaiah 54:17). So a nuclear bomb isn’t going off in my hemisphere—my faith won’t allow it!
America truly is the leader in the generation and exportation of abortion, pornography, sexual immorality, etc. no doubt about it. And surely, the punishment/judgment shall be greatest upon this nation for we keeping adding wood to the fire of judgment this nation will receive by doing things like promoting and sanctifying the perversion of gay relationships and marriage, aborting thousands of fetuses a day, and so forth.
Destruction is surely coming (see CHP 21 of Ezekiel) and it is fully deserved.
The destruction is coming to America is big time for sure, but, it also is coming to all the nations. The destruction and judgment described in Revelation is world-wide.
So to summarize, I propose that you live in one of two places spiritually: Babylon or Zion. The great exhortation in the Bible is to leave Babylon for great destruction is coming and to make our way to Zion.
If you are an unrepentant sinner, you dwell in Babylon. The Gospel message is one of repentance, for the kingdom of heaven is near (the New Jerusalem is coming down to earth).
Since Babylon is going to be destroyed, the Scriptures repeatedly admonish everyone to leave Babylon so as not to partake in her destruction and to make the way to Zion with King Jesus.
Quite simply, it all can be summed up as repent, seek Jesus while He may be found, lest ye perish in the coming destruction.
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Whistler Blowers, Insiders
Matthew 25: 11 Afterward (after the rapture?) came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man comes.
Notice verse 13 is not for the wise virgins. They have already left to be with the bridegroom. This is an instruction for the foolish. The Son of man will return to earth after the great tribulation. After the rapture you can still repent but you will not escape the great tribulation. The Tribulation saints will have a different reward.
RAPTURE ALERT: Millions of Christians have been deceived!
/alternative/2013/02/rapture-alert-millions-of-christians-have-been-deceived-2561260.html
From your link: “There is a widely held deception within the Church (or so-called Church) that the rapture takes place BEFORE the tribulation period. This viewpoint is not Scriptural at all and is a doctrine of demons.”
So, since I believe in the pre-trib Rapture, and in spite of all the scripture I’ve cited elsewhere, you believe I personally am:
– deceived or deceiving
– believe/teach what is not from scripture
– believe/teach a doctrine of demons
I never accuse anyone who disagrees with me on prophecy as any of those things. We’re human, we disagree. But no other prophecy view gets this kind of slander and hatred thrown at it. And I’ve seen people who were undecided take note of this fact, of how people treat this one prophecy view, and it convinced them that the pre-trib Rapture must be true.
Behavior is a message all its own, and so is condemnatory rhetoric. It deeply disappoints me that fellow Christians would say such things about each other, just for believing Jesus comes 3.5 to 7 years sooner than they believe he will.
3.5 to 7 years…
… and for this I am deceived and following demons.
Wow.
The reasons why I believe it is a doctrine of demons, or a deception from Satan, is because one, I believe it is not Scriptural and two, I believe it is in Satan’s interest for Christians to believe it in. I won’t go into the Scriptural case as I did that in the link I provided and in our discussion in your prophecy series. But I will explain why I believe it is Satan’s interest, and that is because all hell is literally about to break loose, and the pre-trib rapture is a teaching that itchy ears want to hear because they think they will have an easy way out of what’s coming. They are being set up to make them cannon fodder for the Devil and his forces when all hell does break loose. Is the so-called Church ready for martyrdom today? No they are not. They are not ready to stand in their faith against the ravages of the beast. Jesus calls us to a patient and enduring faith during the time of the antichrist. We are entering the time period the Bible warned us about, the time the world of the dead will open its mouth wide for. The body of Christ should be in spiritual boot camp, bracing and strengthening themselves in the LORD, preparing for all-out war, the war of all wars. But instead, so many Christians are ill prepared for what will soon envelop the whole world because of the pre-trib rapture teaching. They prepare not for what is about to happen and so will be sitting ducks for the enemy to take out.
In the natural world, those entering the armed forces are not thrown onto the battlefield with no training, because they would not last. They must go through rigorous training first, understanding their weapons and how to use them, physical training and so forth. They must understand the tactics of the enemy and battle strategies.
Satan knows his time is coming, his last 42 months (except for a short time after the Millennium), and he wants to take out as many Christians as possible. Not as martyrs, but as those who will not remain firm in their faith. And that is a matter of salvation, a battle for souls, for Jesus said we must remain firm in our faith until the end to be saved.
I do not buy your take on the pre-trib view getting slandered. I would guess it is the major belief amongst Christians in America. Look at the popularity of the “Left Behind” series. Millions of Christians believe in the pre-trib rapture theory.
The fact that you believe Jesus comes a few years earlier than I do, that itself is not the issue. The issue is because so many (millions?) believe in a pre-trib rapture, their salvation will be in jeopardy because they are not prepared for the tribulation and persecution. For me, that is the bottom line—millions not being able to remain firm in their faith because of a lack of preparation. If someone does not think they will enter into a war, they will not prepare themselves for it. That is why I believe it is a demonic doctrine that is in Satan’s interest, because it seduces people into thinking they have an easy way out and so they do not prepare themselves for war.
“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils”
—1 Timothy 4:1
I have explained my stance on this as best I could. I am sorry you feel the way you do about this HumanBeing. You are one of the most articulate believers on this site with much good and valuable input. I wish this issue did not divide us so. Do I believe your faith is strong? Yes I do. Do I believe millions upon millions of Christians who believe in a pre-trib rapture will be able to endure and remain firm in their faith? No I do not. That is why I feel so strongly about this. I must remain true to my calling.
It is my hope we can remain on good terms. If not, I understand and there will be no hard feelings coming from my side.
Well, am123, it’s getting late here so I’ll try and check back in the morning. My hope is that by putting a face on the group of people you condemn as demonically deceived and unscriptural, you’ll think twice about making such broad-brush judgments. It’s one of the reasons I chose the name HumanBeing; there really is a person behind the name.
Some here think it’s wrong or stupid to “take it personally”, but such people need to learn how seriously and personally Jesus takes such things: “Whatever you did to the least of these my brothers and sisters, you did to me”. Rest assured that Jesus does indeed take it personally when someone takes the sincere and STUDIED conviction of one of His children and attributes it to demons, or stupidity, or gullibility, etc.
You know me better than this, am123. I implore you as a fellow believer, think about what Jesus said concerning how you speak about those in Christ who disagree with your eschatology.
It appears we posted at the same time.
But you’re burning a straw man, and I know I’ve pointed this out before. You said,
“The issue is because so many (millions?) believe in a pre-trib rapture, their salvation will be in jeopardy because they are not prepared for the tribulation and persecution.”
This is utter hogwash.
Here is the truth:
I know that even today many Christians suffer and die for the faith. Not ONE pre-tribber believes that we are exempt from suffering! Did you read that? Not ONE of us is any more afraid of suffering or death than you are. Anyone who teaches otherwise, regardless of the motive, is a false teacher.
What all us pre-tribbers ACTUALLY believe is that scripture promises us escape from THE WRATH OF GOD.
Did you read that? The wrath of God. NOT the wrath of man, or the wrath of Satan. The wrath of God.
Who is it who will not be prepared? How about those who are caught slandering us for disagreeing with them? Yes, it is slander, because we are being lied about and having our motives and character smeared. Will you be among those who are caught “beating their fellow servants” because you say you don’t expect your Master just yet?
See, I could play the slander game too. But I won’t, and no pre-tribber I know does this either. We don’t go around calling a teaching demonic because we FALSELY assume that whoever disagrees will crumble and fall away.
Again: You are burning a giant straw man; you wrongly presume what we will or will not do or believe in the event our eschatology is wrong. You are the one who believes the lie that pre-trib causes people to be unprepared. I cannot overemphasize this point.
I appreciate your attempt to not let this divide us, but ask yourself this: If I were to accuse you of “beating your fellow servants” and went on saying that everyone who disbelieves in the pre-trib Rapture will follow the Antichrist, can you honestly say it would have no effect on our friendship? Why do you want to remain friends with a false teacher, as you believe I am? Why would you be friends with someone who teaches others to be unprepared? This makes no sense at all.
Our parting ways will not be because of your eschatology; it will be because you would spread false charges against so many believers in Christ “who long for His appearing”.
Well, I am sorry you feel that way and do not agree with your statements. It may not do much good to explain why, so I’ll keep it short with just a few quick points.
I too believe the Scriptures promise us escape from the wrath of God. But not from the wrath of Satan.
Despite of what you believe, I do not question your motive or character one iota.
You perhaps do not see the post-trib rapture as demonic because from your perspective, it is not a salvation issue. So from your perspective, it is an eschatological disagreement we have that does not rise to the salvation level. But from my perspective, it rises to that level because I see millions of Christians ill prepared for what is coming. Again, I do not see you personally as being unprepared, but I believe millions are for reasons I already explained.
“If I were to accuse you of “beating your fellow servants” and went on saying that everyone who disbelieves in the pre-trib Rapture will follow the Antichrist, can you honestly say it would have no effect on our friendship?”
Yes. I would take no offense.
“Why do you want to remain friends with a false teacher, as you believe I am? Why would you be friends with someone who teaches others to be unprepared?”
Because while I believe you are misled on this issue, nevertheless, I believe your motives are pure and good and you have a heart for God.
am123,
As I explained, your whole accusation against pre-trib is based on a FALSE ASSUMPTION about the character and willingness to suffer of thousands or even millions of fellow believers. This is a very, very serious charge.
But in saying “I do not see you personally as being unprepared, but I believe millions are”, you’re actually saying that it is NOT pre-trib that causes unpreparedness! Don’t you see that? If you know that I, a pre-tribber, am prepared nonetheless, then how can you blame pre-trib for other people’s lack of preparedness? This is the height of self-contradiction.
You say that I am spreading a doctrine of demons, and you would call someone a friend and a false teacher at the same time. The topic is irrelevant; what matters is that you would do this.
Your beliefs, and those of everyone who so deeply hates pre-trib, are ripping apart the Body of Christ. I could, by your argument, accuse you of teaching the doctrine of demons, but I don’t. Yet now that I know you raise eschatology to a salvation issue, the inescapable conclusion is that you’re calling me lost, whether you intend to or not.
When the Lamb of God opens the first seal, the wrath of God has begun… unless you don’t believe the Lamb is God. It’s that simple. It is not Satan that causes the judgments, it is God.
My new BIN signature, if I even stay any longer:
– “The prepared and saved pre-tribber whose doctrine of demons is causing milliions of people to lose their salvation” –
HumanBeing,
I will respond to what you have said as best I can.
“your whole accusation against pre-trib is based on a FALSE ASSUMPTION about the character and willingness to suffer of thousands or even millions of fellow believers”
I made no accusation about the willingness of pre-tribbers to suffer. I merely make the charge that, because of the teaching, millions are not ready for the most intense time the Church has ever or will ever go through.
“But in saying “I do not see you personally as being unprepared, but I believe millions are”, you’re actually saying that it is NOT pre-trib that causes unpreparedness! Don’t you see that?”
No I don’t. Like I’ve explained before, if people do not believe they will be around during the Great Tribulation, they will not and do not prepare themselves for it. Amongst millions, there are going to be exceptions. But I believe the vast majority do not concern themselves with eschatology and preparing for what is coming because they do not believe they’ll be here.
“When the Lamb of God opens the first seal, the wrath of God has begun… unless you don’t believe the Lamb is God. It’s that simple. It is not Satan that causes the judgments, it is God.”
Absolutely, the seals, trumpets, and bowls are all from God. Believers (the Church) will not be affected by these things.
“Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
—REV 7:3
“And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”
—REV 9:4
The Church will not be touched by the wrath of God. However, regarding Satan and the Beast and Babylon, Jesus said this:
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
—REV 13:7
“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
—REV 13:10
“And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus”
—REV 17:6
am123,
“I made no accusation about the willingness of pre-tribbers to suffer. I merely make the charge that, because of the teaching, millions are not ready for the most intense time the Church has ever or will ever go through.”
And again, I’ve tried to tell you that you’re burning a straw man. If it were “because of the teaching”, then there would be no exceptions like me. And who is truly “ready” for the events described in Revelation? No one. Not you, not me, not anyone on the planet. Christians are already suffering terribly in many parts of the world, some of them children, and by the grace of God they get through it without losing faith. BY… THE… GRACE… OF… GOD… not by personal strength or preparedness. Is it your personal prepping that will get you through, or is it the power of God? I for one would never rely on my own strength.
“if people do not believe they will be around during the Great Tribulation, they will not and do not prepare themselves for it.”
Untrue. Completely speculation on your part. If any of us, regardless of opinion on this, is unprepared for the possibility that our view is wrong, we have been poor disciples. Every believer must be prepared to be challenged, persecuted, even killed for the faith. This has been true throughout church history. And I defy you to explain how exactly you are preparing for the GT, in a way that no pre-tribber is. Prayer? Study? Holiness? Wilderness training? What exactly are you doing that no pre-tribber is doing? What does GT prepping look like that no pre-tribber would recognize?
You are simply PRESUMING people’s character and spiritual state, since I’m pretty sure you never took a poll and actually asked any pre-tribbers how they would handle the GT. How many do you personally know, am123? How many have you talked to directly? Where are you getting your stats?
“The Church will not be touched by the wrath of God.”
Exactly. And the entire 7 years of the Trib. is the wrath of God.
I’ve already addressed the issue of the term ‘saints’ in Rev., many times. They are not the church; they are never referred to as the church beyond the 7 letters. There have been saints before the church, and there will be saints after it.
IDIOT ALERT: SEE AM123
HB,
As far as preparation goes, we are told to draw near to God and to hold fast to our faith without wavering:
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
—Hebrews 10:23
There is much to be gained by drawing nearer to God. For more, see:
/spirit/2013/03/invoking-angels-to-protect-you-and-your-loved-ones-in-these-troubled-times-2475866.html
And Jesus said false prophets will deceive many (why did he warn us if we weren’t going to be here?) and the love of many will wax cold, but those who endure to the end will be saved:
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
—Matthew 24:9-13
So we are told to draw near to God and hold fast to our faith. And great persecution is coming, and only those who endure in their faith until the end will be saved. And at the risk of beating a dead horse, if people believe they won’t be here for it, they will not prepare themselves like someone who believes they will be here. When the AC comes and all hell literally breaks loose, and the Christians are still here, what will happen to those who believed they wouldn’t be here, will they believe they weren’t good enough and so they weren’t raptured? Will they wonder what else have they believed that was wrong? When the rubber meets the road and they are faced with the choice of death or going along with the Beast, won’t many of them falter in their faith? The Scriptures say many will lose heart and fall away. And I believe a big part of the reason why is they believed they weren’t going to be here.
“I’ve already addressed the issue of the term ‘saints’ in Rev., many times.”
I know. And I totally disagree with what you say about that. So doesn’t that put us at the proverbial brick wall?
am123,
We completely agree on drawing near to God, as this is something completely unrelated to eschatology; it is to be the normal Christian life. So if that’s the preparation you’ve been saying pre-tribbers lack, it should be obvious that this is a false charge. There isn’t a pre-tribber in the world who refuses to draw near to God, especially due to any part of pre-trib teaching. So once again, there is nothing you’re doing to prepare that pre-tribbers aren’t also doing.
I’ve also explained numerous times that the context of Jesus’ teachings was primarily and almost exclusively to Jews, before any of them had any notion of the new church to come. Jesus was speaking not only to the immediate population of Israel, but also to the future. After all, you may as well ask why Jesus told them anything at all about the distant future, as to ask why he warned about false teachers. Why tell them about the Abomination of Desolation when none of them would live to see it?
And of course, I’ve written much about all the prophetic passages, so no need to repeat it here.
You wrote again about PRESUMED lack of preparedness, even after you stated that your preparation is simply to draw near to God. I can only conclude at this point that you truly believe that no pre-tribber draws near to God. And that’s an astounding claim, to say the least.
Yes, we’re at a standstill. My purpose for entering this thread at all was simply to express to you my deep disappointment at your eagerness to judge and predict the behavior and spiritual condition of all pre-tribbers, the vast majority of which you have never met. I can only hope that you are the super-spiritual ultra-Christian to surpass all who came before you, that you seem to present yourself as being. If you’re going to rely on your own strength, you’re going to need a LOT of it. Us poor heretical pre-tribbers can never hope to be so spiritual.
We have indeed reached a brick wall. To try and proceed further would only result in repeating the same points again.
God bless.
Robbie;
The rapture is a false teaching of religion and churches. What they call the rapture, is actually the last of the annointed 144,000 being taken to heaven after being transformed into spirit creatures. Most are already in heaven. Maybe 6000 remain alive on Earth now. They are to be taken to heaven to co-rule with Jesus during the 1000 year period known as judgement day. They will also battle Satan and Babylon the Great (the world empire of false religion. This includes ALL religions, churches, clergy, and their members as well as all Earthly governments and anything else related to Satan’s system of things). Rapture is NOT scriptural teaching. Most of what all religions teach is not scriptural, but doctrines of men and not God Almighty. All religions have fornicated (worked hand in hand) with all governments and armies. Several are blood guilty, like Catholicism with the murder of countless tens of thousands of little children used in Satanic rituals in Canada, U.S., and England. That’s been documented and has been going on for well over 100 years. Not to mention pedophilia and false teachings. I could go on, but what’s the point?
The US doesn’t murder its unborn by the “thousands.” It murders them by the tens of millions.
While I appreciate your condemnation of abortion, your concept that all true believers in Christ belong to “the heavenly mount Zion” is confabulation.
Jesus Christ (Son of St. Mary) founded the Catholic Church. Believers in Christ are either in communion with the one true Church or they are not. There is no “heavenly mount Zion” alternative.
Also, why do you use a Christ-like avatar? If you think it lends credence to your “heavenly mount Zion” delusion, then think again, because it doesn’t.
No my avatar doesn’t lend credence to the heavenly Zion, but the Word does.
“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.”
—Psalm 2:6
“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,”
—Hebrews 12:22
Heavenly Zion is third heaven, where Christ and his Immaculate Mother Mary dwell with the angels and saints in the glory of the Blessed Trinity.
The “word” of God you quote is mangled and abridged by Protestant heretics and therefore no longer trustworthy. Yet you pass yourself off as a teacher.
The correct reading of PSALMS 2:6 is: “But I am appointed king over Sion his holy mountain, preaching his commandment.”
Before it’s too late, some admirable high-minded Protestant ministers are, with Vatican approval and assistance, leading their entire flocks into communion with the one true Catholic Church founded by Christ.
“Heavenly Zion is third heaven, where Christ and his Immaculate Mother Mary dwell”
There was an Immaculate conception. But Immaculate Mother Mary? What does that mean?
louis
all the mother’s daughters are now beginning to return, and they ALL will.
Soon the Eastern Orthodox leg that had broken away will come back as will the church of England.
Soon you will be so elated as your one true ‘catholic’ church will be THE ‘christian’ church for the world.
Soon sunday will be mandatory.
Soon the pope will be in control of Jerusalem
Soon all the world will kneel before the pope
Soon priest will be allowed to marry, who knows, maybe to each other
On a 14th of Nisan not far in the future a pope will offer the Passover Sacrifice on the Temple Mound, fire will come down from heaven and devour the lamb and the whole world will shout for joy.
you will be so proud for about a year or two.
July 17, 2014
I had a vivid dream last night with three weird sounding horns last night. I have never had a dream like that in my life. They sounded exactly like the sounds on YouTube of the Earth Sounds heard all over the world. The very first part of the video below is exactly what they sounded like.
They sounded just like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JHAu5qDSgU
I don’t know what it means, but when I awoke I immediately went into prayer.
Prayer is always a good idea.
Since we don’t know exactly when Jesus will come for us, we are motivated to live holy lives at all times. Above all, we’re motivated to spread the gospel as fast as possible, so that more people will belong to Jesus and hasten the day of his appearing (Rom. 11:25).
The best ‘prepping’ any Christian can do is to walk with God daily, making sure that their faith in the risen Jesus is anchored deeply. None of us knows what life may bring, even if Jesus doesn’t return in our lifetime, so we need always to be ready to see him. In contrast, a Christian who says, “My master is staying away a long time” or who is sure he isn’t coming just yet, may become lazy and careless. None of us knows how we would hold up under persecution until it happens, but that’s why we must live daily as if we may be called upon to such a thing.
if one can read, count trumps and discern what they’ve read, then one can clearly see in scripture that a pre-trib rapture is not there. Many just believe what they have been taught their entire life in “church”, never getting into scripture themselves. This is a problem for anyone calling themselves a believer and follower of Christ. Being in Gods Word is mandatory for a Christ follower.
Yes, pre-trib is a doctrine of demons to lure the “religious” of this world into a false sense of security.
True Christ followers seek the truth, found in the Word. Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
As for end time scripture – you need to find for yourself! Be sure and count the trumps to see when Jesus returns. Be sure to note what takes place before His return! Do not be deceived!
http://www.fether.net/index.php?page=refuting-slander-against-the-pre-trib-rapture/
I follow the Jesus who rose from the dead and promised to return after preparing a place for us, the One who said that he would come to take us to be with him. I study rather than blindly swallow what anyone teaches, per the example of the Bereans. I “get into scripture myself”, even into the Greek, and study the grammar/syntax, semantic ranges of words, context, and every other bit of scripture or logic required to “rightly divide the Word of truth”.
And I am pre-trib.
If that one belief of mine outweighs everything else in your view, then let God judge between us. I will not back down from what I see clearly in scripture, no matter how vicious the slander, no matter from how many people who judge me, no matter how long. Call it demonic if you like; it’s a very popular practice these days. But understand that calling what is of God demonic, is a very unwise thing to do. A student of scripture would know that.
minor point but it would help if Babylon was not spelled Baby-long
RAPTURE ????
Let us review some revelations from Jesus Christ;
Revelation 20: 4, 5
4 “——–and they lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years”
5 “(But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished!) This is the First Resurrection”.
In verse 5 the statement “This is the first resurrection” refers back to the last of verse 4 “and they lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years”. Those that lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years must be the first resurrection as the beginning of verse 5 states the rest of the dead live not until the 1000 are finished. Those that reign with Christ for the 1000 years can’t be resurrected after the those 1000 years, that is impossible.
Verse 4 and 5 speak of two resurrections, one that occurs before the 1000 years and the 2nd after the 1000 years. These two scriptures are clear but many will do their best to twist them.
What Christ calls the First Resurrection occurs before the the 1000 year reign and if you will notice it is called by Jesus Christ “THE FIRST RESURRECTION” — no mention of a rapture. Never is the word used.
John 5: 28, 29
28 “Marvel not at this for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice.”
Where are those now that are to come forth unto the resurrection of Life? The grave – not in heaven.
29 “And shall come forth; they that have done good unto THE resurrection of life —.”
Those that have endured until the end and obeyed are given immortal Spirit LIFE in the First RESURRECTION!
Continuing in 29 “——-And they that have done evil unto THE resurrection of damnation.”
We have seen above that there is a First Resurrection before the 1000 years then a 2nd after the 1000 years; Verse 29 talks about a resurrection to life and to damnation, are they at the same time?
The resurrection of damnation is exactly as it’s termed it is the final resurrection to death (3 is God’s number of completion) in which those that refuse to repent, refuse to obey are adjudicated, given the verdict of death and the sentence of death is carried out — they are cast into the Lake of Fire.
There are 3 Resurrection:
The First Resurrection is to eternal life
The Second Resurrection after the 1000 year is to judgment, See Ezekiel 37; all those that have never had an opportunity for salvation, the pagans, the abortions, those children killed by what ever means, those like the vast majority in my large family, they just didn’t have and interest. They were not bad people but they were never called by God.
The Third and final Resurrection is to damnation — the final death.
There is not one mention or hint or anything about a secret rapture because there is none.
Christ came to reveal the TRUTH, “You shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH shall make you free”
Sorry, a rapture is not found in the TRUTH. but 3 resurrection are.
Please do not bring up other scriptures — show why these do not say what they clearly say.
“BABYLONG” huh? somehow this is TOO funny
Yes, I had a typo in the title (now corrected), ha ha.
So, have you been a baby long?
A few last things:
Revelation 3:10
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
(or maybe I’ll make you endure it, to prove yourselves in a way no other believers have ever been tested)
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(or maybe that unprecedented suffering isn’t really technically “wrath”, it just looks like it)
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
(or maybe I changed my mind and hell will overcome you anyway)
Finally, what about the fact that the living believers when Jesus returns will never have died, and thus never a part of any resurrection? (If we call it a resurrection anyway, then the dead in Christ will have been resurrected twice, which is ridiculous.)
—————————————-
In the OT, nobody foresaw that the Messiah would come more than once. They could not reconcile the passages that spoke of a conquering King, yet also one who was “despised and rejected” and “cut off”, so they spiritualized and rationalized and were unprepared for “the day of their visitation”.
Now, today, many believers are likewise unprepared for Jesus to come, and for the same reasons. Some passages speak of endurance and worthiness for a time with very clear signs, while others speak of sudden departure without any signs. Some have Jesus touching the earth and setting up his kingdom, while other have him appearing in the air where we are snatched up to meet him. Yet in spite of having the example of the OT prophecies that were only reconciled by two comings, many still refuse to see that the NT prophecies require the same solution again.
Aside from all the other documents I’ve written to try to explain this, I’m out of things to say about it to you. Satan is not whispering in my ear; I’m just reading the Bible. Whoever accuses me to the contrary will have to do so while standing before God, because He alone is my judge.
For Rev. 3:10, the greek word for KEEP is ‘tereso’ = to watch over, to guard.
EK = *from* the hour
This has to do with the Lord not keeping us from temptation but in temptation — which is the result of being delivered out of the power of temptation.
“I do not ask that You take them out of the world but to keep them from the evil one.” Jn 17:15
I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture, but even if I did, it would not jeopardize my redemption… it is not one of the conditions. I understand the concern that many will not make ready if they do not expect to be here… but even if they are not ready, they will be protected by Yahweh’s divine hedge. Yahweh promised that, if need be, He will send one of His very own angels to our door to lead us to safely. There are only two ways that cause Yahweh’s divine hedge to come down and believing/disbelieving in the rapture is not one of them… it is not sinful to believe it or disbelieve it. One way it comes down has nothing to do with giving a legal accusation of sin to The Accuser… such as the way (reason) Yahweh’s divine hedge came down for Job and Jesus Christ. The only other way is by giving the Accuser a valid claim against you. Those who live a holy life are out of satan’s reach… invincible, even. This is why Yahweh tells us that we have power over satan and his minions. Before I understood, I asked Yahweh, a number of times, how this is possible when satan and his countless servants have several supernatural powers… such as; they can hear every spoken word… they can see every movement made… they can instantly change their form, appearance… they control all earthly positions of power… they are in perfect position to exploit every weakness with every imaginable temptation… and they have been in existence for many millenniums. How can a mere mortal defeat such powerful, malevolent entities? If we do not sin and give The Accuser a legal claim then Yahweh’s divine hedge remains impenetrable. Soon, we are going to need Yahweh’s impenetrable protection more so than ever before.
The once-saved-always-saved deception is far more concerning… because those who embrace this belief have far less incentive to spiritually progress and live a holy life… they continue to commit adultery, theft, perjury etc. because they mistakenly assume that they are permanently saved in spite of indulging in sin.
Thanks for your… ViewPoint.
I agree; in spite of claims to the contrary, one’s eschatological view is not a salvation issue. Pre-trib does not set anyone up for failure, since spiritual preparedness is something every believer should practice in any era. Especially, I agree that since the judgments to come are supernaturally instigated and carried out, it requires supernatural support. Those who rely on their own strength in any era are set up for failure.
However, for the same reasons I oppose the idea that pre-trib is a deception, I also oppose the idea that OSAS is deception. There is zero practical difference between whether a person is lost and resaved multiple times, and whether they backslide and are restored multiple times. The real question is, Why would anyone claiming to have been saved be living like that anyway? What kind of believer only wants to see what they can get away with and still get to heaven? Such an attitude exposes the fact that the person never really understood the gospel in the first place. And Paul said explicitly, “Shall we sin so that grace may abound? Absolutely not! We died to sin; how can we keep living in it?”
So no, OSAS is NOT a license to sin, and there is no discernable difference in the holiness of the lives of those who believe it compared to those who reject it. Non-OSAS people do not live on any higher plane than OSAS people. You too are burning a straw man against a belief you don’t like, just as others do against the pre-trib Rapture. How many OSAS do you know personally, who live like the devil?
Since the comments in this thread have been centered on the rapture, I’ll add some more of my 2 cents on the subject.
Jesus was extremely adamant about warning us not to be deceived in the end times (the times in which we live):
“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.”
—Matthew 24:4
“For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.”
—Matthew 24:5
“And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.”
—Matthew 24:11
“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
—Matthew 24:24
Jesus was talking to the final generation, the one that sees His return.
We know from the Scriptures that the antichrist will come with his great magic to deceive people. We also know that anyone who is deceived and receives the mark of the beast will suffer the full wrath of God and will end up in the lake of fire. So it is vital not to be deceived. Hence, we get repeated warnings from Jesus and the Apostles to not allow ourselves to be deceived.
So I ask this of those Christians truly seeking truth:
If Jesus is going to rapture the Church out of here before the antichrist comes upon the scene, why then did He warn us so adamantly about being deceived? If Christians aren’t going to be around for the great deception there would be no reason to warn them so adamantly about it.
The truth of the matter is this: Jesus warned us because we WILL be here during the time of the beast, for Jesus prayed this to the Father:
“I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
—John 17:15
The truth is our faith must be strong. We must be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil and his cohorts. It is only by the precious blood of Jesus and the words of our testimony that gives us victory over the Devil.
If your faith is not firm, you will not be able to stand until the end. And only those who endure until the end are saved:
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
—Matthew 24:13
Therefore it is imperative that you study the Scriptures for yourself. Read, pray, and meditate upon the Scriptures. Search the Scriptures diligently and do not rely on what others say.
It would do Christians of today well to consider what Isaac Newton said concerning the importance of Christians knowing the end time prophecies. Newton drew a parallel between how the learned Jews missed the first coming of the Messiah because they were deceived and how it will be no less possible for Christians to be deceived by the antichrist. Newton said if God was angry with the Jews for not searching more diligently into the prophecies which He had given them to know Christ by, why should we think He will excuse us for not searching into the prophecies which He has given us to know the antichrist by? For surely it must be as easy for Christians to be deceived by the antichrist as it was for the Jews to reject Christ, Newton postulated, saying it is as much our duty to endeavor to be able to know the antichrist and avoid him as it was the duty of the Jews to know Christ and to follow Him.
The study of eschatology should be no small matter to Christians today. But sadly, many Christians today are indifferent and apathetic to eschatology because of this false belief that they won’t be here when all hell literally breaks loose, and so they are severely ill-prepared for what is about to happen and therefore in grave danger. And yes, the pre-trib rapture theory serves Satan’s purposes greatly—the many warnings of Jesus have fallen on millions of deaf ears.
It amazes me how someone of a religion or a church (Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion) would tell others to leave Babylon the Great. It’s like a grocery store owner telling everyone of his customers to leave his store and not shop there. Strange.
Oh Mike, even I understood what am123 was trying to convey with his essay. It’s a spiritual Babylon he is talking about. Read the article before making assumptions.
I never did think of Babylon as being a spiritual state of being. Does makes some sense.
Although I do believe Ameri☭a leads the way in the category of the Babylonian Emipre of these last days.
am123, The Tower Of Babel in the Bible. Can you give me some insight on the subject.
Hi engineer,
It’s good to see you around. As to America, there’s no doubt that more than any other nation, America throws more logs into the fire of judgment that will rain down from on high.
Regarding the Tower of Babel, that is not something I have meditated much upon, so I can’t be of much help to you on that particular subject. I don’t put much stock in how some try to link the Tower of Babel with the Illuminati or NWO or . More than anything else, the Tower of Babel speaks to me of the Lord intervening and controlling events down here on earth. And no matter what the Illuminati or whoever has planned, all their plans are futile. For there is One who gives life to the game and sets borders and limitations and controls the totality of things and laughs at those who think they can throw a monkey wrench into God’s plans:
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
—Psalm 2:1-5
I see the Tower of Babel as a pivot point in God’s master plan and I actually am more interested in the events adjacent to it. Before the scattering of the nations at the Tower of Babel, you had the dividing of the earth in chapter 10 of Genesis during the time of Peleg. Hmmm…..the dividing of the earth followed by the dividing of peoples. But anyway, after the Tower of Babel is when God’s plan really started to take shape with the appearance of Abr(ah)am.
So early on in the history of mankind, it was a lot of upheaval and change until the dust settled so to speak and then history that is much more familiar to us started to unfold. But, for what it is worth, I would like to address some of this earlier time of the upheaval of things which resulted in the drastic reduction in the average lifespans of humans.
I believe the world was perfect and good at the time of creation, before the fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden. When mankind was judged by God and God “smacked” the earth so to speak with the flood of Noah, the axis of the earth was knocked off its axis and became slightly tilted, giving us an imperfect 365.24 days a year. But before that, a year consisted of exactly 360 days and each month was exactly 30 days (this is the prophetic days/months/years God uses, i.e. the 42 months in Revelation is 1260 days). You can extrapolate 30 day months from the timeline of the flood of Noah, which started on the 17th day of the 2nd month as per Genesis 7:11, lasted for 5 months or 150 days (5months@30days each) as per Genesis 8:3, and ended on the 17th day of the 7th month as per Genesis 8:4. Before this, because there was no tilt of the earth’s axis and because there was a water vapor canopy in the atmosphere above the earth (GEN 1:6-7), the pre-flood earth was an ideal place for human habitation. The temperature was just right, not too hot, not too cold. So in this pristine environment, Adam (who had lost his eternal life) lived for 930 years. Noah also lived 900+ years.
But then after the flood, because there was no longer a water vapor canopy in the atmosphere and because the earth’s axis became titled and there was a more harsh environment temperature wise, the average lifespan of humans was cut just about in half to around 400 years or so. You can see this in Genesis 11:11-15.
Then, after the dividing of the earth during the time of Peleg (GEN 10:25), the average lifespans of humans was cut about in half again (radon gas a contributing factor?). Just a quick side note, I would not be surprised if the land mass of earth before the time of Peleg formed a diamond shape—hence the Biblical saying of the “four corners of the earth”. But anyway, after the time of Peleg, when the earth was divided, the average lifespan of humans dropped to around 200 years or so (as per GEN 11:21-32).
The average lifespan now is down to less than half of that now. So the ball has been rolling downhill ever since the fall in the Garden. But the Good News is all that was lost in the Garden and more can be regained by anyone and everyone who wants to come freely and drink of the spring of the water of life and live forever!
engineer;
am123 does post some pretty strange stuff. Like third heaven? Immaculate mother Mary lives there? There is no third heaven, and Mary is dead, sleeping in death in the grave. Awaiting resurrection after the final battle, just like Revelation to John says.
You’re either mistaking me for someone else or making things up mikesavage. I never posted those things.
“True believers in Jesus all over the world belong to the heavenly mount Zion..”
Then you’re all stupid because Zion means castle, specifically the Jebusite castle King David conquered on Zion/Castle mount near Jerusalem. How materialistic of you.
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem”
—Hebrews 12:22
Thank you sir for your time in explaining the subject matter. May God have mercy on this pix character who in my opinion has no consciense. I’ve seen suffering, I’ve seen death, I hope to Father in heaven in Jesus name that I can find the proper words to say to people that there is another life after this. Pray for me my brother.
I may not be worthy of heaven, if that’s the case, I look forward to holding hands to this pix character WHILE WE BOTH BURN IN HELL TOGETHER.
Engineer Out.
You’re very welcome engineer. It’s always my pleasure to answer any serious inquiries.
As for Pix’s rants and diatribes, with great fervor, he/she continuously slanders God and the Bible time and time again while strutting and displaying his or her ignorance and arrogance like a proud peacock. It’s unconscionable what awaits Pix come Judgment Day with the path he/she is currently on.
As for you engineer, I will keep you in my prayers. But always keep in mind the Good News, and that is, while none of us are worthy of heaven, we don’t have to be because of what Jesus did for us. We can turn away from Him, but He will never turn away from us, always willing to lead us home. If you are willing, his grace will find you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqd8MoiCbcI
So come what may, you just keep hanging onto Jesus engineer and I’ll see you on the other side of the Second Coming in the great feast of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God bless.
am123, I have one last, and honest, thing to say to you.
You say, rightly, that “while none of us are worthy of heaven, we don’t have to be because of what Jesus did for us. We can turn away from Him, but He will never turn away from us”.
Yet time and again you’ve told me that millions of Christians who believe in the pre-trib rapture will indeed fall away; that is, that Jesus will indeed turn away from us. And knowing that none of us are worthy of heaven, you nonetheless say only those who reject pre-trib will make themselves worthy by some sort of prepping. Elsewhere you’ve also said that you’re not worried about nukes because God “has your back”. Yet apparently He only has the backs of those who hate the pre-trib view and call it demonic, since we’re all going to fall away after the Trib starts without the rapture, as you insist.
It’s this sort of conflicting irrationality that I will no longer try to sort out for you, though I have tried with every ounce of effort I could muster.
I’m not asking you to respond, as we already know how that would turn out, and I’m not riding that merry-go-round anymore. I’m just making an observation, in what is likely a vain final attempt to convey to you my utter perplexity at your “logic” and despair at your willingness to condemn a follower of Jesus, all because you believe a lie: that pre-tribbers’ faith is based on prophecy instead of the risen Jesus. There are no more words.
HumanBeing,
You said:
“you’ve told me that millions of Christians who believe in the pre-trib rapture will indeed fall away; that is, that Jesus will indeed turn away from us”
Well, first of all, thank you for giving me another chance to respond and explain my position.
Jesus turning away from pre-tribbers is never what I have said or meant to imply at all. What I have said and implied is I believe many pre-tribbers, when the persecution of the beast comes, when they are bound and forced to kneel down on the chopping block with a sword raised over their heads and are given one last chance to renounce Jesus and pledge allegiance to the Beast, many, not all, but many will renounce Jesus, turning away from Him (not Him turning away from them). And I believe a big part of why many will turn away at that time is because there was no sense of urgency about strengthening themselves in their faith because they never thought they would be here for the tribulation. When a hurricane or tornado is bearing down on people, there’s no motivation for people like there is when they see it coming their way on the radar or visibly see the storm coming their way. But when there’s nothing but blue skies and nothing on the radar, they will not prepare in the same way.
That in a nutshell is my position on this issue. And there is great perplexity on my side as well that I cannot get you to see that that is not one iota of a swipe at your faith, which is clearly based on the risen Jesus.
Regardless of our perplexities with each other, we are members of the same body and so you have no choice but to consider me a brother in the Lord
, and vice versa.
So I will remember you too in my prayers. May His grace and peace shine upon you, in Jesus name amen.
engineer
” May God have mercy on this pix character who in my opinion has no consciense”
Spoken like a true Christian… heartless barbarian. and typically vilifying people who disagree while role playing their deity so they can do the judging instead. You prove your disbelief by judging because if you really believed there was a god who commanded ‘thou shalt not bear false witness’, you would not dare.
We’ve all seen suffering and death, most of it caused by Christian America.
am123 “As for Pix’s rants and diatribes, with great fervor, he/she continuously slanders God and the Bible ”
You can’t slander fairy stories or fairy story characters.
” time and time again while strutting and displaying his or her ignorance and arrogance like a proud peacock.”
Excuse me mate, you are the one making all the odious arrogant claims of knowledge of the unknowable.
Nothing awaits me after death, dead is dead. Grow up, stop inventing me as a demon so you can justify role playing your spiteful vindictive god.
Eph. 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 1:17
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
2 Corinthians 5:5
Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Ephesians 1:13-15
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
2 Timothy 1:14
Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
1 Cor. 6:19b
You are not your own; you were bought at a price.
Romans 6:1-3
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
========================================
For anyone not familiar with these verses, the Bible teaches that it is faith in the risen Jesus that saves us, not our own preparations or endurance. So it is likewise not our own weakness or theology that can make us unsaved. Since when we place faith in Jesus we are no longer “our own”, we are no longer at liberty to reject Jesus forever. We stumble, we even sometimes run away like the prodigal son, but we will eventually return. And we know this because scripture promises it, not because we only got “saved” because we thought it gave us a license to sin. Since, as scripture says, we participated in the death and resurrection of Christ, we can no more reject him than he could reject himself.
So rest assured that if you freely choose to accept Jesus as the risen Savior, for the purpose of being reconciled to God, your salvation is guaranteed. And a guarantee is meaningless if anyone, even you, can lose it. What kind of God would give this guarantee and then stand idly by while you are tempted beyond your ability or willingness to endure? No, God means what he says, not what false teachers say.
And as already shown, this is no license to sin. Anyone who thinks that being saved is merely a ticket out of hell is not saved at all. Instead, salvation is accepting not just the gift but the Giver; it is reconciliation, not a blank check.
So don’t be frightened by those who falsely teach that God will let you be ravaged by his own wrath meant for Satan and the rebellious world, to the point that you would lose your faith. You may suffer, you may even be called to martyrdom, but you wlll not be lost. So accept Jesus today; don’t put it off. Even if he doesn’t return for another thousand years, none of us knows the span of our life or how many more chances we’ll get. Be reconciled to God:
2 Cor. 5:16-21
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
PS:
Being unprepared to be martyred has ZERO to do with the pre-trib rapture belief. There are millions of Christians today, right now, who know nothing of Bible prophecy, even who are amillennialists or post-tribbers, who are just as likely to crumple when persecution comes as anyone else.
I’ve said this a thousand times: lack of deep faith has ABOSULTELY NOTHING to do with one’s prophetic viewpoint. The false teachers who keep spreading this vicious and hateful lie will have to answer to God for their slander.
HumanBeing said:
“we participated in the death and resurrection of Christ, we can no more reject him than he could reject himself”
I thought you agreed with my statement above that we can turn away from Him, but He will never turn away from us?
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
—Matthew 24:12-13
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
—Hebrews 6:4-6
“Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”
—2 Peter 3:17
“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
— Revelation 3:5
“I thought you agreed with my statement above that we can turn away from Him, but He will never turn away from us?”
No.
For my viewpoints on the other passages, see my commentary on the various books at http://bible.fether.net/index.php?pager=co . All else I’ll say about that to you is what I’ve said all along and you keep dismissing: context is everything, not all ‘saints’ are the church, not all ‘enduring’ passages concern salvation but rewards, etc. etc. etc. etc.
I was under the impression you that you agreed with that because you said this in a post above:
You say, rightly, that “while none of us are worthy of heaven, we don’t have to be because of what Jesus did for us. We can turn away from Him, but He will never turn away from us”.
“we can turn away from Him”
THIS is the ‘no’ part.
HumanBeing said:
“So don’t be frightened by those who falsely teach that God will let you be ravaged by his own wrath meant for Satan and the rebellious world, to the point that you would lose your faith”
The Church will be kept from the wrath of God, but will be given over to the antichrist for a time, until the kingdom of God comes in fullness (I love verses 22 and 27 below from chapter 7 of Daniel):
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
—Daniel 7:20-22
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
—Daniel 7:25-27
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
—REV 13:7
“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
—REV 13:10
“And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus”
—REV 17:6
“The Church will be kept from the wrath of God, but will be given over to the antichrist for a time,”
No. You will never find “the church” being prevailed against by the gates of hell.
You will never find “the church” mentioned in Rev. past the 7 letters.
You will never find “the church” in the OT.
I’ve said all this many times, and I won’t say it again. If you want to learn about “the church”, read the NT Letters. And if we belong to Jesus, we are not at liberty to leave; if we died and became “a new creation”, then we cannot go back to the grave and re-acquire our old nature.
Or you can just believe whatever you want, since I’m a false teacher getting lessons from the devil.
Humanflotsam wrote “since I’m a false teacher getting lessons from the devil.”
Why, NO, humanflotsom!
You are a “Brain washed from Birth” christo-CREEP, the worst kind! The kind that is NOT “christian”, BUT “is a self avowed expert interpreter” of the Book Of ALL MALE WRITTEN Babble!
You are a Talmud reading zionist dis-information expert, with a strong “smell” of FOUL, rotted, Beef!
“You will never find “the church” mentioned in Rev. past the 7 letters.”
You most certainly do. The church is composed of saints:
“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
—1 Corinthians 14:33
“Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints”
— Colossians 1:26
The saints are mentioned many times throughout Revelation.
Besides, regarding the manchild in chapter 12, it says this:
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
—REV 12:5
And in the letter to the angel of the church of Ephesus, Jesus said this:
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
—REV 2:26-27
“You most certainly do. The church is composed of saints”
How many times have I told you that ‘saints’ preceded the church and will also follow it? The fact remains that the ekklesia, the church, the Body of Christ, is NOT mentioned after the 7 letters, and you cannot spin this away. All in the church are saints, but not all saints are in the church. I’ve said this a thousand times. This is why I expended so much effort in my prophecy series to establish in the first article the separation between Israel and the church. But clearly that effort was wasted, at least on you.
This fallacy of yours is called ‘equivocation’; you’re trying to change the meaning of “church” into “all saints of all ages”. And if you’re okay with doing things like that, then discussing scripture with you is a complete exercise in futility. Around and around you go, repeating the same… things… over and over… in spite of how many times I’ve refuted them.
No more, am123. I’m done with you.
So be it HumanBeing.
God bless.