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An Unholy Trinity

Saturday, October 1, 2016 20:47
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(Before It's News)

Union of Christianity, paganism, and Greek mythological dogma.

My religious beliefs have changed over the years.  On this web site I have deleted most of my essays, simply because everyone prefers their denominational ”Traditions of men” to my more spiritual and Godly viewpoints L.O.L.

The Protestant Reformation is proof that Christianity was changed, for the Apostle Paul said that after his death that wolves would come in and not spare the flock. The Protestant Reformation didn’t take Christianity back to 1st Century teachings!!! 

When Greek Mythology, ancient pagan religions and Christianity have beliefs in common; then we know that our Christian faith has been perverted and compromised.  

I have come to believe that God is the only person who can change the minds and hearts of His children; and my reasoning skills of persuasion cannot force an individual to change their mind concerning “What is Truth”.

The TRUTH is:

Pagan and Greek Mythology beliefs shouldn’t be thought of as being needed or necessary in order to fulfill and complete our Jewish/Christian worldview or Theological presupposition’s.  The two deviations or departures from the Jewish/Christian faith are the need for a virgin birth of Jesus or the belief that Jesus existed before he is conceived in the womb of Mary his mother. 

Before the Protestant Reformation all scripture was hand written by the scribes who had a vested interested in seducing the pagans into becoming Christians by adding scriptures that reflected their pagan and/or mythological world view (which were embraced as truth long before Jesus was born).

No human exists before they are conceived as a human, including Jesus!!!  There are two concepts that Christians should entertain as Biblical facts, “God became a son” and “God sent his son”.  In human or spiritual logic, “To become” (HAS TO PRECEED) “Being sent”.  No human becomes a son (or is conceived “Twice”.  If Jesus is a son before the world began, he would have to have a “Mother” in heaven to give him that “First “ conception into existence as a son, otherwise the word “Son” has no meaning if there is no “Heavenly mother” to give him existence.  Son, mother and daughter are all “Human terms that don’t apply to God or angels.  

After two apostles performed miracles before a group of pagans, one of them shouted out loud for everyone to hear “Behold the god’s have come down to us”, the “Coming down” implies or infers that they are perceived as being virgin born gods who existed “Before they were conceived” in their human mothers womb; henceforth a virgin birth of Jesus is needed in order to proselytize pagan converts to Christianity.

When Jews saw apostles perform miracles, they would collectively belief or say something like “Isn’t if marvelous how God has given these men these gifts to perform before us and increase our faith in our Creator” (no Jew would consider a human as God. 

Emmanuel means “God with us” and if you think of the “One” and “Only” God putting His Spirit in a human body and making it a temple or tabernacle to house God and call his physical body Jesus; then you will be less likely to try to deify the body of Jesus.  You deify Jesus when you don’t consider him a descendent of “Both” Joseph and Mary.  Keeping him single is ludicrous, illogical and unnatural 2000 years ago simply because a Jewish Rabbi had to be at least 30 years old and married (no exception). 

Mary would have been stoned for adultery if she or Joseph had of told any family member, friend, stranger or Rabbi that God got her pregnant.  It is amazing that God can (supposedly) get a young virgin pregnant but this same God can’t protect this family and they have to flee to Egypt for safety L.O.L.  Every teenage or adult female who loves her husband, only wants a man to get her pregnant and not God.  You doubt this, go to a wedding and at the reception go up to the new bride and say something like “Thanks for inviting me to your wedding, and by the way, do you want your husband or God to be the father of your first born child”.  The husband and bride will either laugh or be angry at you nonsensical comment.  This would be true 2000 years ago or in 2016.  Plus, Mary is told by the angel “You will conceive a child” and doesn’t ask her if she wants to have a child in an abnormal “Non Jewish” concept.  Mary, Joseph and “All Jews” know that if this child is a result of the covenant that God has with King David and Bathsheba, then Jesus can only be the Promised Messiah if Joseph and Mary are his parents. 

There is an Abraham/Sarah covenant with God.  Sarah can’t be the stepmother of Isaac and fulfill this covenant with God.  IN LIKE MANNER, Joseph can’t be the stepfather to Jesus and fulfill the King David/Bathsheba covenant with God.  Neither covenant can have a stepfather or stepmother involved, for that would make them null and void covenant.

A Bible verse says that there are those who “Deny that Jesus has come in the flesh”.  No one denies that Jesus has come in the flesh of Mary his mother, but “Almost” EVERYONE denies that Jesus has come in the “Flesh” of JOSEPH!!!  Jesus calls himself the “Son of man”.  If Jesus had of said “I the son of woman, came not into the world to condemn the world but that the world through me might be saved” EVERYONE WOULD KNOW he is talking about his mother Mary. 

Another unusual situation is that from say 18-29 (12 inclusive years) everyone demands that Jesus “Stay single”.  “If” he is fully man and fully human (same body parts Arthur Trafford and other men have) you would think any “Rabbi” would still be “Righteous” if he was married and had a child.  In those 12 adult years there might have been “Literally” hundreds of fathers and mothers who would want their daughter to date and marry the man we call Jesus. 

Even a “Perfect” man desires to eat, sleep, work, date and/or marry for companionship, sex and procreation (but no pagan can entertain a “Normal” Jewish lifestyle for Jesus of Nazareth).  Surely no Godly Jewish female 2000 years ago would be attracted to and want to date or marry Jesus L.O.L.  The flesh, bone and blood of Jesus is created by Adam and Eve’s descendants’ which HAS TO INCLUDE a child from the sexual union of Joseph and Mary in order to fulfill the Jewish/Christian scripture. Otherwise, Christians are seeking to unite and solidify an unholy trinity (union of Christianity/paganism/mythological dogma).

Sincerely,

ArthurTrafford.com

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  • TCB

    If I post my objections to your above claims, would you participate here in a dialogue about the relevant biblical specifics?

    • To Elvis Jr.:

      I noticed that you are analytical and opinionated and I appreciate that about you.

      You seem to be a take-charge, choleric, entrepreneur type who is very goal oriented, an opinioned personality who wants things done (when you want things done). At 8:20 P.M. you sent me 1 email and at 9:35 P.M. the same day Oct. 3, 2016 you sent me the second email (at 14-point font it added up to 6 pages of information. All received by me in 1 hour and 15 minutes.

      I felt like I was being interrogated and it appears you “Have to win” a debate or discussion. You might not mean too, but you come across as a “Religious Bully”, everyone has to accept your viewpoint and make you feel you are right concerning Theology.

      I like to put my thoughts on electronic paper and seek “What is Truth”. All humans are guessing at “What is Truth” because in this fallen sinful world we are told, “We see in a mirror dimly”. If either of us were born in India, China, Mexico or anywhere else we would probably have a different religion, culture and looks.

      If you had of asked me 2 or at the most 3 questions I wouldn’t have been overwhelmed with the 6 pages sent on the same day. But I don’t think you were seeking more understanding of my beliefs, you were wanting to shame and belittle me for thinking anything that doesn’t agree with your “My way or the highway” approach to truth.

      You have no interest in reading my ArthurTrafford.com (surely you can’t oppose everything I write) L.O.L. I have read every word that you and others post on my essay page “An Unholy Trinity”.

      But in most cases it is more important that I understand you and others, with no desire to persuade you to change. In heaven, we will all be on the same page of understanding and loving each other and God in a perfect relationship.

      I will address some or all of your questions, in a limited way (I don’t plan on turning my response into a lengthy book) L.O.L. Just wanting to clarify what and why I believe what I think. With no attempt to be judgmental, condescending, or think I am more pious or righteous than others. We are all sinners in the hand of a loving God; who knows we are guessing at “What is Truth”.

      God bless you and your family

      Sincerely,
      ArthurTrafford.com

      • TCB

        “…it appears you “Have to win” a debate or discussion.”

        My concerns lie elsewhere, I assure you. This response of yours is a most common sentiment: A man will come along to this website and post opinionated material openly contradicting the Scriptures. Someone then happens to read and respond to that material; in this case me. The reaction of the original poster, in almost ALL CASES, is to complain that he feels beset upon. That is something I’ve noticed – an almost universal trait – in the men (and sometimes women) who come here to ‘share’ their ideas about the Word of God…

        …none of you are ready, willing or able to defend your own positions, or even to make a positive argument in favor of your own conclusions. To be perfectly honest with you, that bothers me. It bothers me because anyone who presumes to teach relevant to the Scriptures, is also commanded by those same Scriptures to give an ‘apologetic’ to anyone that asks them to. But almost none of you are inclined to do so. There are obvious reasons for this.

        “You might not mean too, but you come across as a “Religious Bully”, everyone has to accept your viewpoint and make you feel you are right concerning Theology.”

        I can understand why a man like you would think that about me. Whenever someone who is unsettled in his own beliefs encounters one who is firmly-settled and is ready in all instances to demonstrate the scriptural validity of those settled beliefs (only because his beliefs accord with the Word of God), it must be somewhat unnerving to the first believer. But here’s the problem, Arthur – I don’t post material here in the form of articles. I don’t presume to teach. You do. And as a teacher, you had better be willing to consent to questioning and dialogue.

        “I like to put my thoughts on electronic paper and seek “What is Truth”.”

        There is nothing at all in your material posted above, which gives the reader to understand you are seeking anything. You came here and posted a teaching piece. You impugned the beliefs of others and held out your own beliefs as uniquely attuned to the truth. But your beliefs cannot withstand even the first round of questioning from an outside perspective. Your beliefs can stand only as a monologue, not as a dialogue. And since you are unable or unwilling to defend your ideas, then your ideas are not worthy to be taught to others. It really is that simple. If I am able to dismantle your claims as easily as I have done – even without your participation – then just imagine how quickly your ideas will fall to dust when confronted with an actual barrage of TESTING from a truly hostile source. You have not built your doctrine on a firm foundation. You have ignored repeated warnings in the Scriptures on how to learn and how to build on what you’ve learned. You have shown yourself to be easily misled by sources exterior to the Word of God and you have demonstrated your unwillingness to properly test the Word to see whether it is what it claims to be. Having failed in all of these areas, you have then come to disseminate what you think you know. But you’re not ready to support your material in even a marginally strenuous examination, which means your material is not worth much at all.

        “All humans are guessing at “What is Truth”…”

        Preposterous. We, Adam-kind, do not have to GUESS at Truth. That is to say, we don’t have to guess if we believe our God. God has entered into His own creation and has given us revelation. He has condescended to explain MANY issues to us and has done so in a unique fashion. He has given us material to test, to study and to learn from. He has provided and continues to provide for us the conditions which make study of His Word possible. He has given us all we need in divine revelation and in natural revelation:

        Romans 1:20

        For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So [men who would deny the efficacy of His revelations] are without excuse.

        “…in this fallen sinful world we are told, “We see in a mirror dimly”…”

        He who wrote those words also wrote the first chapter of the Letter to the Romans. I would suggest you read that chapter right now, and most carefully. (Particular attention beginning in verse 18)

        “If either of us were born in India, China, Mexico or anywhere else we would probably have a different religion, culture and looks.”

        Irrelevant. He CALLS those whom He wills to call – no matter in which corner of this world they abide.

        “If you had of asked me 2 or at the most 3 questions I wouldn’t have been overwhelmed with the 6 pages sent on the same day.”

        Please. You are the one who said to me, and I quote:

        “Tell me what you think I am implying in my essay that you disagree with.”

        If you desired a limited response, then was the time to say so.

        “I don’t think you were seeking more understanding of my beliefs…”

        I am not at all unfamiliar with your beliefs, Arthur. You did an ample job at making your beliefs perfectly known in what you posted above and nothing of what you wrote is new to me. There’s nothing unique in your ideas; all you have done is marry the anti-scriptural ideas of enemies of the Word of God. If that’s said a bit too bluntly for your sensibilities, I apologize. But friend, this is deadly serious material we’re discussing and I find that a somber and direct approach is warranted.

        “… you were wanting to shame and belittle me for thinking anything that doesn’t agree with your “My way or the highway” approach to truth.”

        Not true. If my intentions are to belittle you or to shame you, then my intentions are evil, unscriptural and contrary to what The King has asked of me. I haven’t come here to hurt you, Arthur. I have engaged you merely do demonstrate the utter insufficiency of your ideas. Your ideas cannot stand when called out into scrutiny – that much is patently obvious. My intention is solely to get you to rethink your stance on this matter because you’ve endangered yourself through imprudence and now you presume to teach others.

        “You have no interest in reading my ArthurTrafford.com (surely you can’t oppose everything I write)…”

        If you consent to participate in a dialogue about your material, then suggest a single piece (or two) about the size of what you posted above. I will read it if you’re willing to discuss it.

        “I have read every word that you and others post on my essay page “An Unholy Trinity”.”

        As well you should have. Every word here was addressed directly to you. Just consider the judgment you might walk yourself into if you presumed to teach but then refused to hear what was said to you in response.

        “In heaven, we will all be on the same page…”

        There’s nothing in Scripture about any of us going to heaven.

        Proceed as you see fit, friend. I have placed no demands on you whatsoever. I came here asking. You told me to proceed. And now here we are.

        • 2000 years a go homosexuality was neither unknow or accepted in Jewish culture. If Jesus really would have been single and only ”hanged out” with men, it would have been considered most suspicious and therefore without doubt utilized by his political opponents Pharisees. Israel was not exactly ”rainbow oriented” 2000 years a go. One would have trouble distinguishing between the opinions of contemporary Saudi clerics and average guys of biblical Israel. :cool:

          • I believe some of what you say. Go to ArthurTrafford.com, for some of my writings validate some of your beliefs.

            God bless you and your family !!!

  • Thanks for your reply, Mr. Elvis Presley L.O.L.
    -
    I really doubt if either one of us will change our mind, especially since the “Traditions of men” have already been added to our Christian Bible. And no one is going to accept what I believe over what has been added to our Bible before the “Protestant Reformation” by the Catholic Pope.
    -
    Logically speaking, you don’t reform something that is “Perfect and without error” (only heresy in the Bible should be confronted and rejected) in the 1500’s (but wasn’t).
    -
    But I would prefer you reading the essays on my website ArthurTrafford.com, simply because I don’t want to rehash what I have already said. Tell me what you think I am implying in my essay that you disagree with.
    -
    My views changed about 5 years ago, I sent an essay to a Jewish Christian woman and talked about how I believe that Joseph and Mary had a “Normal” marriage and sexual relationship after the virgin birth of Jesus. SHE WROTE ME BACK SAYING “No virgin birth of Jesus”. Pagan religious leaders and Greek Mythology philosopher’s already taught the virgin birth long before Jesus was born (that is why Jesus had to be virgin born, single and childless). To be a Jewish Rabbi, you had to be at least 30 years of age and married (no exception).
    -
    Sincerely,
    ArthurTrafford.com

    • TCB

      “…the “Traditions of men” have already been added to our Christian Bible.”

      And that is something we could discuss. We have today ancient documents with which to compare our more modern Manuscripts; i.e. we have copies of Isaiah and Deuteronomy dating back to before 350 B.C. and we have early second century and even late first century New Testament Manuscripts (both complete books and fragmentary sections), so the claim that our modern biblical Manuscripts have been irreparably altered is a non-starter. Variations have indeed crept into the streams, but with the massive amount of data extant which we have at our disposal, we are remiss in our duties if we do not thoroughly vet any claim for ourselves that the biblical documents have been changed beyond all hope of repair.

      “And no one is going to accept what I believe over what has been added to our Bible before the “Protestant Reformation” by the Catholic Pope.”

      We can in fact prove what has been added and what hasn’t. It is a somewhat time-consuming effort, but it is one which is most readily achievable.

      “Logically speaking, you don’t reform something that is “Perfect and without error”…”

      I concur with that statement entirely. No portion of the Bible should ever have been tampered with by any man for any reason. However, that notion wasn’t enough for Erasmus and the Trinitarians who are responsible for the corruptions of Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 in the ‘Textus Receptus’ MSS.

      “But I would prefer you reading the essays on my website ArthurTrafford.com, simply because I don’t want to rehash what I have already said.”

      I presume to suggest that I might present you with arguments you haven’t dealt with often or at all. I come from the perspective of what can be proven based on the evidence we have at our disposal. Like Plato, I too despise opinion – most assuredly including my own. What matters is that which IS and not what we think or believe. My life’s goal since adulthood has been to pursue the truth of these matters, nothing wavering. I hold no ideology, no mind-set, no doctrine and no system of belief in higher esteem than I do the evidence itself and the truth which that evidence conveys.

      “Tell me what you think I am implying in my essay that you disagree with.”

      Fair enough. After I finish replying to this post I will compose a list of any objections to your above submission.

      “My views changed about 5 years ago, I sent an essay to a Jewish Christian woman and talked about how I believe that Joseph and Mary had a “Normal” marriage and sexual relationship after the virgin birth of Jesus. SHE WROTE ME BACK SAYING “No virgin birth of Jesus”. Pagan religious leaders and Greek Mythology philosopher’s already taught the virgin birth long before Jesus was born (that is why Jesus had to be virgin born, single and childless).”

      That particular falsehood is one which I oppose most vehemently at this website and others. In fact, I have a ten thousand dollar bounty payable to anyone (read anyone) who can provide legitimate supporting evidence for that claim (in addition to any other specific claim that any portion of the New Testament Gospels were reliant on any pre-existing documentation of any kind – pagan or otherwise). Were it not mentioned in the New Testament that Jesus was born of a virgin, it would have been deducible merely by careful examination of the Old Testament. If the Messiah had NOT been born of a virgin, then His sacrifice was not sufficient to provide the substitutionary atonement needed to purify the sins of mankind.

      That is not to say the Catholic nonsense about Mary’s perpetual virginity, or her immaculate conception, or any of that popish tradition, has any bearing on the Word of God. It doesn’t. But the Messiah was most assuredly born of a virgin. And NO story of ANYONE being born of a virgin, preceded the Gospels. The claim that the Gospels took that notion from pre-existing sources, is a claim which has no basis in fact whatsoever. To illustrate that point, I have been trumpeting my bounty for anyone who can demonstrate to the contrary, now for almost eight years. A few have tried to meet the challenge but all have failed. They have all failed because NONE were able to produce or to cite evidence older than the Gospels themselves. That is, all of the pagan mythological documentation pertaining to a virgin birth is significantly newer than the Gospels. The pagan stories were changed after the fact to reflect the Gospels; not the other way around. Ten thousand USD is yours if you can prove otherwise.

      I’ll compile a short list of objections to what you published above and post it here when I have finished.

      • we have copies of Isaiah and Deuteronomy dating back to before 350 B.C.

        No. You do. The rest of us have fake dead sea scrolls, coffins and pieces of the one true cross made from wood from Noahs’s ark.

        • Thanks for your reply.

          Let me answer Aden, her comments are much shorter. Jewish scribes didn’t transcribe the Christian New Testament. Pagan religious leaders who were proselytized by the Catholic (universal church) became Christians. They didn’t renounce all of their non-Christian beliefs when they became Christians and since they were gifted communicators they were placed in positions of authority in the Catholic Church. The Bible was hand-written, and only religious leaders and their scribes had copies of copies written by the Apostles.
          -
          Therefore these scribes were hand-picked (and for the right price (lets say 30 pieces of silver) L.O.L. they would “Pre date” any scroll to reflect a date that “All” Christians would adhere to as the “Original” unadulterated, unchanged scroll that naïve Christians would accept as genuine. It’s like a committee “Stacking the court” and as long as a majority rule has corrupt members seated on the committee (secular or religious) then the evil intent of sinful humans will be enacted and corrupt Christian Theology in the 4th Century or in 1830 or 1870 (Mormon Church and Jehovah’s Witnesses).
          -
          God doesn’t stop Arthur Trafford or anyone else from willfully sinning. Our Christian forefathers were all tempted to sin and God didn’t strike them dead (even when they added, deleted or changed scripture.

          2 tenths of 1 % were Jewish in the 1st Century which I think is about 1 Jew for every 514 pagan gentiles. The Pope of Rome doesn’t want to have his priest preaching a message that only 1 person out of 515 individuals will like. The offering plate would be very low. Preaching a message that all pagans already believe is very much desirable.
          -
          I have an essay “Christian Word of God” on my ArthurTrafford.com and I point out that “Only” a heavenly language is perfect and human words are ambiguous and have many meanings (and that is why there are 100’s of Christian denominations in the 21st Century

          • Actually there were about 10 million Jews in the 1st century AD.

            1 million people in Rome.

            2-3 million in Gaul.

          • n the Hadrianic war of 132-135 AD 580,000 Jews were slain, according to Cassius Dio (lxix. 14). According to Theodor Mommsen, in the first century C.E. there were no fewer than 1,000,000 Jews in Egypt, in a total of 8,000,000 inhabitants; of these 200,000 lived in Alexandria, whose total population was 500,000. Adolf Harnack (Ausbreitung des Christentums, Leipzig, 1902) reckons that there were 1,000,000 Jews in Syria (which included Lebanon) but the areas east of the Euphrates at the time of Nero in 60′s AD, and 700,000 in Judea, and he allows for an additional 1,500,000 in other places, thus estimating that there were in the first century 4,200,000 Jews in the world. Jacobs remarks that this estimate is probably excessive.

            ============

            But others consider it an underestimate

          • They eventually all became Christian

          • What made conversion possible was the broadening of the concept of God from the tribal God of the Israelite nation to the universal God of all humanity as described by the Biblical prophets. When it was clear that Judaism was a universalistic faith, formal proselytism could develop; Judaism became eager for converts and so successful that ten percent of the population of the Roman Empire became Jewish; Jewish teachings and ways exerted a fascination both amongst the aristocracy and the common people. [1]

            http://www.oztorah.com/2008/07/jewish-attitudes-to-gentiles-in-the-first-century/

        • Aden, a few more thoughts”. I hope I am not too longwinded!!!

          The point I am making is that the Jewish population was about .2 % of the world population then and now. The Internet told me “The world’s core Jewish population in early 2014 was estimated at 14.2 million”.

          If you divide 7 billion humans by 14,200,000 Jews, you get about 492 gentiles per every Jew. In religion, politics and health-care the mantra is “Show me the money” L.O.L. Christianity would have died in the 4th Century if the Catholics had not have promoted the virgin birth and preexistence of Jesus, for the pagans would have believed and kept their religions as superior to Christianity.

          When God put His Spirit in a human temple or tabernacle we call Jesus, God doesn’t have any problem keep Jesus from sinning; simply because Jesus doesn’t have a human created spirit dwelling in him. We humans sin because we do not have God’s power, desire and will to stay sinless and perfect, simply because none of us is God.

          My conception and birth is just as miracles as a virgin birth simply because God is doing the miracle and His miracles do not have “Any degree” of difficulty (Jesus could have been born full grown just like Adam and Eve). So, stop limiting God’s power and thinking that God has the same limitations as us humans. Jesus is not perfect because he is virgin born, he is perfect because God controls everything that Jesus will think, do and say.

          When Jesus said, “Before Abraham was I am (he is talking about God not himself). When Jesus is praying to God, he is not praying to himself; it is the humanness of Jesus in the body that Adam and Eve passed down to Joseph and Mary (a perfectly human body) just like 7 billion humans in 2016 (all conceived the same way — unless you have pagan beliefs).

          God made and kept a promise with humans in the Abraham/Sarah and David/Bathsheba Covenant. Abraham and David can’t conceive children and complete the covenant without Sarah and Bathsheba. So the covenants have to be with 2 married couples that became one-flesh when they got married to their mates. Joseph and Mary are both related to King David. If Joseph didn’t get Mary pregnant then their child Jesus represents only half of a fulfillment of the Covenant that God made with the human race. Jesus could have been born to a prostitute simply because all humans are sinful including Mary the mother of Jesus. And if Mary had of been a prostitute her sins and the sins of Joseph couldn’t touch God or Jesus in any way (even when Joseph is having sex with Mary while Jesus is in Mary’s womb). My mom and dad probably had sex 100’s of times before I was born, so stop think Joseph and Mary had some kind of sick unnatural relationship while Mary is pregnant with Jesus.

          Humans (especially Christians) apparently believe that the true God is just a weak and powerless as humans are; STOP LIMITING GOD’S POWER and let Jesus be 100% physically conceived, just like all the rest of us. And acknowledge that the Spirit of God residing in Jesus has no problem motivating Jesus to do what is acceptable and pleasing to God in everything that Jesus thinks, does and speaks!!! God became a son and then God sent his son into the world. Every human has to “Become”, before they can “Be sent” (including Jesus).

          In reality all humans have existed in the mind of God in all of eternity (including the past and future) simply because God has no past or future; he is a present tense kind of God. I AM is His name. We have already been redeemed 2000 years ago. God has the power to separate us from all of our sins, cast all our sins into hell and redeem the part of us that is made in the image of God and we “All” will be with God for eternity (even those Christian, Jews and Muslim etc. “Pharisees types” who teach humans made in the image of God will deserve to be cast in hell (even after the blood of the Messiah cleanses them.

          Our good works doesn’t save us. Good works are always preceded by good thoughts and neither of them saves us because God is our Redeemer. Our good works protects us from unnecessary suffering; for if I don’t fornicate, lie, steal, kill, have or cause an abortion, have extreme hatred or extreme fear of the opposite gender, then I will have fewer problems concerning life choices and temptations.

          Sincerely,
          ArthurTrafford.com

          • ArthurTrafford.com

            Basically

            Jesus as God out Jews as Gods in?

            Welcome to BIN’s bubble world Arthur.

            Regardless of what the bubble dwelling demons think however America’s post Zionist Fear of Godders (and their ‘rest of the world’) are not Christians (Israel).

    • Rabbi is an anachronism. It wasnt used until the turn of the 2nd century. Judaism itself a century or two later.

  • TCB

    “The Protestant Reformation didn’t take Christianity back to 1st Century teachings!!!”

    Truth. And as much can be easily demonstrated with the evidence of Scripture alone.

    “When Greek Mythology, ancient pagan religions and Christianity have beliefs in common; then we know that our Christian faith has been perverted and compromised.”

    Any similarities between pagan mythology and the Scriptures, if the similarities be of such a nature that they could legitimately be referred to as plagiarism (as they so often are), are late corruptions indeed. But the stories that changed after-the-fact were the pagan myths; not the Gospels. All anyone need do in order to prove that statement false, is to provide evidence of pagan documentation reflective of those so-called similarities, but that documentation must be OLDER THAN THE GOSPELS THEMSELVES. That’s the only way to prove your assertion – not to mention collect ten thousand dollars in the process. But neither you nor anyone else will be able to do so. Hopefully that fact holds significant meaning for you.

    “…our Jewish/Christian worldview or Theological presupposition’s (sic).”

    There is no such thing as a Jewish/Christian worldview. Judaism has at its core a rejection of the Christian Messiah. Judaism and Christianity are no more compatible than Islam and Christianity.

    “The two deviations or departures from the Jewish/Christian faith are the need for a virgin birth of Jesus or the belief that Jesus existed before he is conceived in the womb of Mary his mother.”

    My comments on the virgin birth having already been addressed and awaiting rebuttal, I would point to one area in need of clarification before addressing the existence of the Messiah prior to His birth from a woman:

    Jesus did not have existence prior to His birth from Mary. But the Word of God did. That is to say, the Son of Man did not exist until He was born into the world, but only because He did not yet exist as the Son of Man. The Word of God, The Logos, has existed eternally in the presence of God and The Logos was made flesh when He condescended to become briefly a little lower than the angels. Scripture is very clear about this. Scripture is likewise clear that Jesus, though not yet known by that name, descended to Earth from Heaven when He came in the likeness of sinful flesh. If it is your contention that the Scriptures admit of dispute along these lines, then I eagerly await your argument. But if it is your claim that the verses of Scripture which make these things plainly known, have been changed…

    …then the burden of proof is yours. You will then owe tangible evidence in support of any contention that the narrative of Scripture has been altered to reflect the pre-existence of The Son. I would warn you beforehand that the evidence will not be in your favor should you wish to pursue that line of reasoning.

    “Before the Protestant Reformation all scripture was hand written by the scribes who had a vested interested in seducing the pagans into becoming Christians by adding scriptures that reflected their pagan and/or mythological world view (which were embraced as truth long before Jesus was born).”

    That’s a red herring you’re setting up. We don’t have to wonder about these things. We have ancient texts against which we may compare our more modern variants. We don’t have to guess about what Scripture, as originally written, had to say about these things. We can know. [As a corollary I would submit to you the issue of discrepancy found between our modern Masoretic Text and the documents recovered in Qumran with the Dead Sea library. Take the Book of Isaiah, for example. Are you aware of how many discrepancies exist between the Masoretic Text version of that Book and the Great Isaiah Scroll? There are two differences. One of the differences is a single word in one version appearing as two words in the other. The other difference is equally unimportant. Apart from that, the versions are verbatim. Literally.]

    “No human exists before they are conceived as a human, including Jesus!!!”

    Jesus didn’t exist before Jesus did, but The Logos existed. And it was The Logos speaking in the Bible, as Jesus, when He said to the Pharisees: Before Abraham was, I AM.

    “If Jesus is a son before the world began, he would have to have a “Mother” in heaven to give him that “First “ conception into existence as a son…”

    A question for you (which, if you actually answer, you will be the first I have ever seen do so)…

    …on which day did THIS take place:

    I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me: You are my Son; today I have begotten you.

    “…if there is no “Heavenly mother” to give him existence…”

    But isn’t there? There was an earthly mother when He was born of a woman. And there was assuredly a heavenly ‘mother’ when He was uniquely begotten in the opening verses of Genesis.

    “…the “Coming down” implies or infers (sic – one may infer from an implication; one may not convey an inference) that they are perceived as being virgin born gods who existed “Before they were conceived” in their human mothers womb…”

    On what do you base this assertion? Who ever imagined that a god was born of a virgin before the Messiah was born to the woman? Opinion will not suffice in this case. You will be needing something substantial to support your contention.

    “…no Jew would consider a human as God…”

    No ‘human’ ever was God. We need to be careful with our terms. Jesus was never referred to as God until after His resurrection. And in His resurrected state, it is by no means accurate to refer to Him as ‘human.’ He wasn’t human when He was born (He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh) and He certainly wasn’t human after His resurrection.

    “You deify Jesus when you don’t consider him a descendent of “Both” Joseph and Mary.”

    You argue against the entire Bible. It isn’t only a few verses upon which we may deduce the deity of Jesus – it is a great MANY verses across the entire Bible – in both the Old and New Testaments. If (notice I say ‘if’) it is your intention to argue that ALL such verses result from late corruptions, then you have no real business arguing anything from the Bible one way or another because quite clearly you do not believe any of it.

    “Keeping him single is ludicrous, illogical and unnatural 2000 years ago simply because a Jewish Rabbi had to be at least 30 years old and married (no exception).”

    First and foremost – Jesus was most assuredly NOT Jewish. He was born of the Tribe of Judah making Him Judean, but He flatly REJECTED any tradition or observance of the religious men of His day which did not accord perfectly with the written Word of God – i.e. the Tanakh (aka the Old Testament). He would not have been beholden to any traditions which compelled marriage.

    Second – your claim is clearly invalid because the Apostle Paul did not marry. Was Paul any less an authority of the Jews than Jesus was? Was Paul not a teacher?

    Third – to argue that Jesus was married when He walked in the land, is to argue against the ENTIRE Biblical Narrative of Salvation. Jesus could not have been married because He has YET to take His bride. If Jesus ever married on Earth, then God’s plan for the salvation of mankind is of none effect.

    “…this same God can’t protect this family and they have to flee to Egypt for safety…”

    Have you ever actually read the Bible? How many times in Scripture does God compel, one way or another, a person or group of people to FLEE from one location to another? Too many to count, I would say. God can protect us via whatever means He sees fit. That most certainly includes ordering us to move out of the way of danger.

    “…if this child is a result of the covenant that God has with King David and Bathsheba, then Jesus can only be the Promised Messiah if Joseph and Mary are his parents.”

    What on earth are you talking about? What covenant did God have with Bathsheba? God promised David an Heir to The Throne. God promised that David would never lack a Son to rule The Kingdom. What did God ever promise Bathsheba?

    “…Joseph can’t be the stepfather to Jesus and fulfill the King David/Bathsheba covenant with God.”

    Please explain the reasoning behind this assertion.

    “Neither covenant can have a stepfather or stepmother involved, for that would make them null and void covenant.”

    The fact that Jesus had a stepfather was irrelevant considering exactly whom The Father of Jesus was.

    “…EVERYONE denies that Jesus has come in the “Flesh” of JOSEPH!!!”

    As well they should. Jesus was not the son of Joseph – a fact about which Scripture is perfectly clear. Which again, if you intend to argue is the result of some change, then the burden of proof is yours and yours alone. I wouldn’t want that job. It’s an impossible task.

    The manner by which He referred to Himself in Scripture (as the Son of Man) finds its meaning in the Greek ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου [HO HUIOS TOU ANTHROPOU], which means literally, the son of mankind. This is in NO WAY any sort of reference to Joseph, friend. Not even close.

    These are a few of the objections I raise relevant to the material you posted above.

    • TCB

      Not even interested in taking a crack at any of it, eh Arthur?

      That’s why I asked before I composed all my posts. You gave me to believe you were game for an examination of these things.

      Oh well.

  • Houston we have a problem :wink: Have i got the right Arthur Trafford, Tex?

    You’re not the first to claim Jesus married Mary Magdalene except, as TCB made clear, that would make Jesus an adulterer and an unworthy Savior. I also notice you advocate spilled seed which suggests, right off the bat, that you think you know better than God.

    Oh your digital footprint says a great deal about you, my friend, and perhaps you would consider your position because you’re in way over your head here.

    • Mr. Mayhem

      I am no longer a Christian Pharisee. We are Christian in the hand of a loving God (not an angry God, as most religionist think). The Apostles of Jesus said, “Shall we call down fire from heaven and destroy our enemies”?

      I have noticed how angry and insecure people get when they are told that God loves all of us equally, redeems all of us and soon our Creator will reunite all of us in a perfect future world.

      All humans should rejoice that our “Loving God” will separate all of us from our sins, cast our sin nature into hell and the part of us that is “Made in God’s Image” will be cleansed and reunited with God in heaven. For only our sins (what we think, do and says that offends God will be cast into hell.

      Abandon the false god’s and counterfeit messiahs of human intellect and love and serve the ONE and only True God, “Emmanuel” (means God with us) the God of our Salvation !!!

      Sincerely,
      ArthurTrafford.com
      P.S. Jesus is a flesh, bone and blood (“100 % human”) stop deifying the body of Jesus. A human Jesus is having sex with a human wife Mary Magdalene (they are both from the family tree or genealogy of Adam and Eve’s dependents. God is a spirit being and he has no penis to have sex with a human female.

      God bless you and your family!!!
      END OF DESCUSSION L.O.L.

      • Says the imbecilic tax dodger worshipping the purely human Jesus as God! :roll:

      • Whatever makes you think i’m either angry or insecure, Tex, could it be where i referred to you as “my friend” or is that just something you trot out in order to justify refusing to engage with your detractors?

        Yes God loves us all equally, had i said otherwise?

        Yes all are saved but some need correcting first and the punishment is not eternal.

        Of course Immanuel means “God with us” but still you deny the diety of Messiah.

        Citation needed that Jesus had sex with Mary Magdalene.

        God didn’t even touch Mary, mother of Jesus, that is why her conception is called “unique”.

        Do not bless me from your god’s perspective lest i share in your iniquities.

        End of discussion? If you say so but it does seem a tad dismissive given you’ve only expressed your opinion and haven’t actually proven anything you’ve said.

        • MAYHEM …this guy is sincere but sincerely wrong, nothing to see here, nothing NEW anyway… happy now !!! lol

          • Mega Church v. Mega Church Speed Laiting.

            “Sex with pigs? WHY YES! HALLELUJAH! CAN I GET A FIFTY BUCKS?!”

  • TCB

    CLAIM:

    “Therefore these scribes were hand-picked (and for the right price (lets say 30 pieces of silver) L.O.L. they would “Pre date” any scroll to reflect a date that “All” Christians would adhere to as the “Original” unadulterated, unchanged scroll that naïve Christians would accept as genuine.”

    Very well. But do recall our earlier reminder that opinions are not valuable things – and nowhere is that sentiment truer than it is when we’re considering the things of Scripture. Are we discussing the Word of God or aren’t we. The Apostle Paul said all Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for instruction, for doctrine and for correction. It would therefore seem to me that if you intend to point to any portion or portions of the Scriptures as being genuine, you would by now have arrived at some system for testing all Scripture – including the portions you have rejected as being apocryphal or otherwise problematic.

    What then is your system?

    On what do you base such claims as the above quotation?

    How do you manage to differentiate between the valid portions of Scripture and the invalid?

    What are your sources of information, exterior to the Scriptures themselves?

    Because without answering these questions Arthur, your opinion about these matters is no more qualified or worthy than the opinions of millions of other website commentators who come to the table in dialogue about things they’ve heard other people say and bits of information they’ve read in other disreputable sources.

    Take the virgin birth claim you advocated, for example: That is a canard propagated by enemies of Scripture. It can never be proven, not even marginally. So then, if it can never be proven, why do so many folks find that the claim has any merit? The claim has no merit at all – not when ALL of the tangible evidence stands in stark and direct contrast to the claim.

    The written Gospel accounts are the oldest record of any virgin birth. The majority academic world itself, traditionally hostile to the message of the Bible, admits this fact when pushed to do so. You seem now willing to admit that fact yourself, but with the appended claim that scribes faked even the earliest prevailing records of the New Testament documents.

    Is that your new claim then? Are all of the earliest extant New Testament documents the result of forgery and fraudulence? If so, then you had better get busy in a hurry. Because you’ll have a herculean effort ahead of you taking even one single step in the direction of supporting that claim with anything a reasonable person would consider as meaningful evidence.

    You came here talking about how hard it is to change people’s beliefs about these matters. My suggestion to you is that it’s time to take a very serious look at some of your own beliefs. If nothing of what you believe can be substantiated with genuine facts and evidence…

    …what does it profit you to believe any of those things?

    The dates that the Gospels were written can be determined with a significant amount of certainty. The literally hundreds of copies of the original documents extant can be compared and cross-referenced for accuracy in transmission. Evidence of scribal tampering can be detected fairly easily in most cases – and can be detected via close scrutiny of historical records in others.

    If you’re only interested in believing what you believe for the sake of satisfaction that you are right, then carry on. But if you’re truly interested in acquiring useful knowledge about that which IS, then your adopted mental model of all things scriptural needs an overhaul from top to bottom.

  • For the first time in years I have scanned an actual BIN article.

    You. Are. Just. Lying.

    NO ONE SANE could EVER argue what you are babbling about so your obvious real motive is just to attack sola scriptura. And you aren’t doing so for sola ecclesia either because tradition terrifies you too.

    The Holy Tax Law.

    A GayTheist clown it is then. :lol:

    • TCB

      “…just to attack sola scriptura…”

      What?

      Since when are you a proponent of Sola Scriptura?

      • - And you aren’t doing so for sola ecclesia either because tradition terrifies you too.

        Hes just so obviously trying to wrap himself in opposition to the OT God so he can dump the NT and keep the OT = Clown = God Fearer amongst his fellow demons.

        • TCB

          “And you aren’t doing so for sola ecclesia either because tradition terrifies you too.”

          Care to explain this?

          Use your words, now.

          • Cast our sin nature into hell

            ===========

            This is gnosticism. It shows his cherry picking of traditions (the definition of gnosticism) – there is a tradition ‘hell’ so take one part ‘hell’ of it and mix it with US tax law and zionism and half bake for 2 hours.

  • If someone copies this into a blank “Word doc.” In black print adds their own thoughts to the word doc. in BLUE LETTERS and then delete all the BLACK print that refers to what I have said. That way I am only reading what the other person says. Plus it shortens the content since it doesn’t repeat the words of Arthur.

    Yes, I do admit that the virgin birth is in the Christian Bible. But all of you ignore why it is spoken of in the Bible.

    Christian’s keep saying Jesus is like us and they might even quote the verse “For this reason he had to be made “Like” them, fully human in every way. In what ways are humans like others, we all want to or have to eat, sleep, work, marry, have sex, have children, pee, poop and pass gas and have thousands of other commonalities in being human.

    “Fully human in every way” negates the need for a virgin birth. In every way is an all-inclusive statement that doesn’t allow unnatural births or lifestyles (staying single). Jesus is like us but without sin. He has no sin nature but He can do everything a married man does because his marriage bed is undefiled because of his marriage commitment to his wife. His physical body comes from the family tree of Adam and Eve, which makes him fully human. So God is not having sex with Mary Magdalene but a human Jesus is. And if Jesus has a child that child will be sinful like the rest of us simply because he has a human created spirit put inside him for the child of Jesus is not a Temple or tabernacle dwelling place of God like Jesus is.

    The Christian leaders before the Protestant Reformation knew that church worker salaries are their main outflow of funds. And if a priest had a wife and 4 children he will need 2 to 3 times more money to support his family. Keeping Jesus single and asking priest to “Be like a single Jesus” and stay single will save billions of dollars in operating expenses of the church.

    The law suits against the church proves that the marriage of piety (self-righteous) married to celibacy (sexual purity) is an unholy marriage for everyone knows married males and females are less tempted and find it easier to be more righteous than individual who take the vow of celibacy for any reason.

    But let us discuss the real elephant in the room that almost every Christian will ignore. I am talking about the dysfunctional relationships between Joseph and Mary, Mary and God and Jesus and his 4 brothers and at least 2 sisters.

    The Christian God commits adultery against Joseph. Think about this, God is a “Person” who gets a female pregnant. So in reality, when a person gets another mans wife pregnant, that is called adultery. Not only that but the Christian God is a dead-beat day, in that God comes down to earth, gets Mary pregnant and then leaves town and lets the step-father raise his child (pretty slick of him). L.O.L.

    Joseph and Mary aren’t really married and they have no reason to marry in those 1st 9 months (if they are not having sexual intercourse). They are young and have raging hormones and desire marriage, companionship, sex, orgasms and children. They primarily married for sex just like all other teenage and adult males and females do. No one marries because they love GAWD L.O.L.

    Mary does not love Joseph and Joseph does not love Mary. If they did, they wouldn’t defraud each other by withholding sex from each other. A married couple abstaining from sex during marriage is grounds for divorce. If I had a daughter and she got married and they didn’t have sex for 9 months then the marriage would be annulled and void because you have to engage in sexual intercourse for the marriage to be legitimately consummated before God or man (that is what is “Normal” with humans.

    Go to any wedding and at the reception ask the bride who she wants to be the father of her first child (God or her husband). She and her husband will either laugh or be angry for such a silly question being asked. She will say if I have a son I want my son to be as handsome and smart as my husband and he will say if I have a daughter I want her to be as pretty and smart as my wife. These are universal truths and only a mentally handicapped woman would want God to be the father of her child or someone who hates men will want God to get her pregnant.

    Neither Joseph nor Mary can tell anyone about God being the father of her child. Mary would be stoned for adultery if she says that Joseph isn’t the father of her child. Mary can’t play the virgin birth trump card to validate her conception. They both would be shamed and the laughing stock in the community and subjected to mockery or ridicule if Joseph isn’t the father of Jesus.

    God would cause Joseph and Mary much less pain and emotional suffering (if a virgin birth is necessary) if God just let them get married and pass off the child with Mary and Joseph thinking Joseph is the father of Jesus (that is what the people in their community believe — isn’t this the child of Joseph and Mary).

    Gabriel appears to come across as a male chauvinist to Mary. He says to her “You will be with child”. He doesn’t ask her if she wants God to get her pregnant (this is an abnormal illogical request for a married woman) who is supposed to be in love with her husband.

    The parents and grandparents of Joseph and Mary want Joseph to be the father of their grandchildren and great grandchildren. Joseph and Mary found favor before God because they had the same faith of their forefathers and mothers. Their faith made them righteous before God and a virgin birth is of no importance concerning righteousness or being faithful before God or humans. God promotes the ideal, that all males and females are to be virgins when they marry (not just the female).

    All the women in Mary and Joseph’s family would shame Mary and be angry with her if they knew she was practicing celibacy in marriage (a very evil and unloving response to her husband). Brothers in both families would laugh and make fun of Joseph if he said he is not sexual intimate with his wife (forever— as some Catholics teach) (or for the first 9 months—as Protestants teach).

    People started worshiping Jesus after he turned 30 and not before. His family said he is out of his mind (a lunatic) for saying what he said. Jesus appeared to James his brother after his resurrection. It would be very normal for the parents of Jesus to love Jesus more than their other children, simply because he was perfect, and I think James was the most hurt because Jesus appeared to his brother James after the resurrection (for he was too angry to believe or have faith in Jesus) without that visit to calm his hurts.

    Jesus said, destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up. Jesus is a Temple or tabernacle not made with hands. God dwells in that temple of flesh and no one can harm Jesus in any way. When the oxen stumbled, Uzzah died when he touched the Ark of the Covenant for he wanted to steady and protect the Ark of the Covenant. In that experience, God was saying that God doesn’t need any human intervention to protect God from any circumstances or mishaps in life.

    In the same way, God’s dwelling in the Most Holy Place in this “Temple of flesh” (not made with hands) we call Jesus. God doesn’t need any help protecting Jesus from any harm (spiritual, emotional or physical for sin cannot be transmitted into his body or affect Jesus in any way). God can move us humans out of a certain place in order to protect us. But God residing inside Jesus doesn’t have that same problem because God can protect His human Temple without human intervention. Jesus being to offspring of Joseph and Mary doesn’t make Jesus sinful.

    Jesus getting married and having a child doesn’t make Jesus sinful (probably Barabbas, who celebrated his bar mitzvah at 13. Pharisee’s and Roman soldiers told Jesus to turn himself in or the son of Jesus will be crucified instead of Jesus. Jesus and his wife love their son and it would be very logical for Jesus to take his place even though his son wasn’t guilty of insurgence, murder, robbery or any other criminal activity, just the religious leaders hiding the fact that Jesus had a son.

    Lazarus had 2 sisters Martha and Mary of Bethany (probably Mary Magdalene a righteous woman of whom Jesus married. Before the Protestant Reformation, the church leaders demonized Mary Magdalene because they didn’t want anyone to know that Jesus was married and had a child or children by her. When Christ the Messiah sets up His kingdom on earth then we will meet his wife and any children.

    Sincerely,
    ArthurTrafford.com

    • TCB

      “Yes, I do admit that the virgin birth is in the Christian Bible. But all of you ignore why it is spoken of in the Bible.”

      Said with nothing to support it. More opinions backed by nothing, Arthur.

      “…fully human in every way.”

      Are we arguing church doctrine or are we arguing from the Word of God? There are many mainline Christian teachings which state that Messiah was both fully God and fully human, but there isn’t anything in Scripture upon which to base that claim. Certainly no one on this comment board has said they adhere to that non-scriptural notion.

      “…“Fully human in every way” negates the need for a virgin birth.”

      Irrelevant to our conversation. Don’t assume Christian doctrine primacy. Assume only what can be supported with Scripture. Scripture demands a virgin birth and there is no way around that fact. The sins are passed from the father to the children. Sin was recognized when ADAM ate – not when Eve did. Eve would have been punished. Adam ensured that his children would be. Messiah could NOT have been the son of Joseph, a point about which Scripture is perfectly clear. We are even told why.

      “Jesus is like us but without sin.”

      Jesus was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. (Romans 8:3) He did not have an earthly father.

      “…because of his marriage commitment to his wife.”

      You should stop making this assertion immediately until such time as you find something with which to support it. Opinions of men on the matter are irrelevant and inadmissible to any conversation about Scripture. Messiah did not marry.

      “His physical body comes from the family tree of Adam and Eve, which makes him fully human.”

      He was not fully human. His Father was not an earthly father. Any member of mankind must have an earthly mother and an earthly father.

      “So God is not having sex with Mary Magdalene but a human Jesus is.”

      I reject this slander of the King of Kings. Is Dan Brown your authority? Baigent? Leigh? Lincoln?

      “And if Jesus has a child…”

      Brazen speculation not worthy to be addressed until such time as you produce substance in support of your ideas.

      “Keeping Jesus single and asking priest to “Be like a single Jesus” and stay single will save billions of dollars in operating expenses of the church.”

      One of us is a student of early church history, Arthur. The other clearly isn’t. There is NO COMMAND in Scripture to remain either single or celibate. Paul taught that HE thought it a good idea (though he made certain to record the fact that no such command came from on High) that a person should remain as he was when the Gospel message found him.

      1 Corinthians 7:27

      Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

      “The law suits against the church…”

      The Roman Church? In which century? Not that it matters, because the Roman Church didn’t become incorporated in its present iteration until some four to five hundred years after the Messiah’s death and resurrection. PLEASE, Arthur – stop conflating Christian dogma and Catholic Church indicia in a conversation which should be limited to Scripture. What organizations of men do or say has no bearing on the written Word of God, inasmuch as those deeds or acts deviate from what is written. We’re not arguing church legitimacy here. At least I’m not.

      “…everyone knows married males and females are less tempted and find it easier to be more righteous than individual who take the vow of celibacy for any reason.”

      Addressed by the Apostle Paul who said – if you must marry, then marry. It is no sin. It is better to marry than to burn. (1 Corinthians 7:36)

      “But let us discuss the real elephant in the room that almost every Christian will ignore.”

      I look forward to it.

      “I am talking about the dysfunctional relationships between Joseph and Mary, Mary and God and Jesus and his 4 brothers and at least 2 sisters.”

      Hopefully coming to the table with something more than mere opinion.

      “The Christian God commits adultery against Joseph.”

      Slander. An act of sexual congress between a man and a woman is against the Law of God if the act takes place outside of the bonds of marriage. But Mary was not impregnated through any sexual congress. Mary was impregnated in exactly the same manner we see depicted in Genesis 1:2

      And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

      That is how The Light was begotten. The Spirit of God hovered or overshadowed the waters. In the Gospel account, the woman is the waters. The Spirit overshadowed her and the Son of Man was begotten. Your charges against God are without merit because you do not understand the Scriptures.

      “Joseph and Mary aren’t really married…”

      They were betrothed. The marriage had not yet been consummated at the time The Spirit begat the Son of Man.

      “They are young and have raging hormones and desire marriage…”

      The gospel according to Arthur. Does it have any value? You be the judge.

      “Mary does not love Joseph and Joseph does not love Mary.”

      You show yourself to be an unbridled speculator. You are doing nothing more than rewriting events and pretending to be privy to the machinations of the minds and bodies of two people who lived more than two thousand years ago. Who do you think you are, Arthur? How dare you do what you are doing?

      “If they did, they wouldn’t defraud each other by withholding sex from each other.”

      And you are ignorant of Ancient Hebrew customs. Very clearly.

      “You will be with child”

      Was that a command or was it a prophecy. You have it in your heart to accuse God so you will naturally seek for the aggravating evidence with which to build your case. This fact DEVIATES your WALK, friend. You are wayward. You are rebellious. You are of a mind to slander the Most High because you don’t believe what is written and you never did. You never did because you never bothered to TEST the material fairly and impartially. You are derelict in your duties and now you are an errant witness.

      “The parents and grandparents of Joseph and Mary…”

      I’m not inclined to hear any more of your vain speculation. On anything.

      “Jesus is a Temple or tabernacle not made with hands.”

      Finally, something supportable with Scripture.

      “Jesus being to offspring of Joseph and Mary doesn’t make Jesus sinful.”

      It most certainly does. ALL members of Adam-kind (mankind) are born into this world in a fallen state. The sins of the father are transmitted to his offspring – certainly in the case of rebellious and lawless reprobates but apparently also in the case of believers. A child must be old enough to repent of his sins before he can become a member of the Body of Christ. No child is born sinless. Yet the Son of Man was born into this world without sin. Joseph COULD NOT have been the father of the Son of Man – a fact about which you would not argue if you comprehended Old and New Testament Scripture. If it is your contention that Old and New Testament Scripture was altered in order to reflect a virgin birth, then you will have an impossible battle in front of you if you even attempt to demonstrate that such a contention has merit. Isaiah said THE ALMAH WILL CONCEIVE. An almah is a maiden. But a maiden is not a maiden unless she is a virgin. If she stops being a virgin she also stops being a maiden and becomes either a wife or a whore. [And, by the way, a Manuscript of the Book of Isaiah was recovered in Qumran which PREDATES the virgin birth by more than 350 years. You see what facts do to your arguments, Arthur? If you were at all interested in facts or at all interested in truth, you and I would be having some other conversation.]

      “Jesus getting married and having a child doesn’t make Jesus sinful…”

      It would render Him an unfit vessel for the sacrifice of atonement and would NEGATE the entire salvational narrative of the Scriptures. Sorry, friend. You’ll need much more than just your opinion about these things if you’re going to try to climb THAT mountain.

      “…Barabbas, who celebrated his bar mitzvah at 13.”

      God only knows what you’ve been reading. It sure hasn’t been the Bible.

      “Pharisee’s and Roman soldiers told Jesus to turn himself in or the son of Jesus will be crucified instead of Jesus.”

      Balderdash. False witness. False reporting and lies.

      It is enough, Arthur. Further conversation with you along these lines will only be fruitful if you stop wasting time about novels and fables. Are you interested in the truth of all things or do you seek only to be titillated at the table of tale-bearers? I’m not interested in spending any more time addressing such nonsense. So either you make your case from the Scriptures, or you come to the table with EVIDENCE (something of substance other than your opinion) that Scripture has been changed, or this conversation is at its end.

      You are serving no purpose but your own.

  • There is “Nothing” in this world that is PERFECT, including the King James Bible.

    For the Bible says that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”. (Did you notice that the word PERFECT isn’t added to 2 Timothy 3:16) ???

    Nothing in this fallen, sinful world is perfect including our religious books. And yes it is obvious that Satan and sinful humans would corrupt scriptures (just like Satan did in the Garden of Eden when the serpent said unto the woman, “You shall not surely die”

    Satan and God were both right. God meant they would die spiritually and Satan meant they wouldn’t die physically. Satan literally changed the Word of God when speaking to Eve and God didn’t stop Satan.

    The early church changed the written Word of God in print (no doubt about that being true). And God didn’t stop Satan and human from doing their evil actions (modern day proof —- the Mormon Church and the Jehovah Witnesses changed the Catholic and King James Bible and it is obvious that God allowed that to happen)!!!

    Sincerely,
    ArthurTrafford.com

    • How would you know Satan was wrong in the garden of Eden if scripture and tradition is corrupted?

      You are against sola scriptures, sola ecclesia and tradition.

      So what are you?

      Sola pig ignorant?

      Sola exclusion into hell?

      Sola biggus dickus

      • TCB

        Zip it, Damien. You bring nothing to this conversation.

    • TCB

      “There is “Nothing” in this world that is PERFECT, including the King James Bible.”

      Is there a King James ‘onlyist’ around here? Where is he? There is nothing perfect in nature and it is certain that nothing perfect was ever made by man. But the Son of Man was not of this world, a point about which He was sure to be very clear. The Scriptures (as originally written – not in any form of translation) are perfect. They are without flaw or defect of any kind because they are not the work of men.

      “Did you notice that the word PERFECT isn’t added to 2 Timothy 3:16) ???”

      Arthur? Have I at any time stated that I believe the Scriptures can make us perfect? No. I have not. Won’t you address the things which have been said and not those which have no bearing on our conversation?

      “Nothing in this fallen, sinful world is perfect including our religious books.”

      According to whose religious books? The Scriptures are prefect and the Son of Man became perfect through His perfect obedience to God’s word. But neither the Scriptures nor the Son of Man are of this world. Nothing OF this world is perfect.

      “And yes it is obvious that Satan and sinful humans would corrupt scriptures (just like Satan did in the Garden of Eden when the serpent said unto the woman, “You shall not surely die”…”

      God said He would protect His word. He has done so. We have at our disposal all of the Scriptures as originally written, if only we are willing to labor and be diligent in our search. If we seek, we will find. Satan didn’t corrupt Scripture – all Satan ever did speak contrary to the Word, which is to lie.

      “Satan and God were both right.”

      Not possible, friend. God said IN THE SAME DAY you eat, you die. And we know that with God, a day is as 1000 years (Psalm 90:40 and 2 Peter 3:8). Did Adam see 1000 years? No. He did not. The Serpent was wrong. The Serpent lied.

      “God meant they would die spiritually…”

      False.

      “…and Satan meant they wouldn’t die physically.”

      And Satan was wrong.

      “Satan literally changed the Word of God when speaking to Eve and God didn’t stop Satan.”

      Satan did nothing of the kind. Do Satan’s words overrule the words of God? Is Satan a higher authority than God? All Satan can do is lie and distort. Satan mingles the profane with the holy. That’s all Satan ever did.

      “The early church changed the written Word of God in print (no doubt about that being true).”

      It is a provable fact that certain changes were made to the Scriptures – most of the corruptions were perpetrated, whether through carelessness or deceit, within the first three centuries. But those changes were actually minor and in all cases the changes were additions to the written Word – not subtractions. This we can prove forensically and through a study of the voluminous quantity of writing left behind by the ‘early church fathers’ in addition to a study of the extant Manuscript and Papyri evidence itself. Scripture has been protected, Arthur. Your arguments can all be defeated easily. The promises of God are sure and therefore the Word of God is sure. This conclusion is supported by the totality of the evidence.

      “…the Mormon Church and the Jehovah Witnesses changed the Catholic and King James Bible…”

      No, Arthur. Both the Mormon Church and the Watchtower and Bible Tract Society wrote their own bibles. The book of Mormon and the Jehovah’s Witness bible are inventions of men which have no bearing whatsoever on the Word of God – just as the Serpent’s lies in the garden had no bearing on TRUTH whatsoever.

      All of the arguments put forth by you on this webpage are empty and devoid of sound reasoning. You should retreat from the field of debate and examine your motives. You are driven by something other than a desire to find the genuine. Do you have some reason for wanting to discredit Scripture? I think that you do. Just remember – nothing you can ever say or do will have an impact on the Word of God one way or another. He has shown us that which IS. He has spoken and He has spoken with authority. All of His words and ALL of the Scriptures are testable. We don’t have to wonder and we don’t have to guess. And we most assuredly will have no excuse for going in search of a better doctrine or a better promise when He has intervened SINCE THE BEGINNIG to make of this world what it is…

      …for a purpose.

      And His purposes will be fulfilled.

  • I know you believe in the future when God sets up his kingdom on earth and that everyone will be separated from his or her sin nature. Our sins will be separated from us as far as the east is from the west. Since God has the power to cleanse and protect us from dealing with sin in the future, then that same loving God has the power to protect Jesus from the human sin natures of Joseph and Mary.

    The three Jewish youths Hanania, Mishael, and Azaria were thrown into a blazing furnace but God protected them from the deadly transfer of heat that would normally cremate their bodies. “No harm” came to them or their clothes and they were perfectly comfortable in the furnace. They probably didn’t even sweat in the furnace because God could keep their skin cool or cold if He wanted to.

    There are no harmful bacteria’s, germs, viruses, parasites and especially no spiritual sinfulness that can be transmitted into the being and body of Jesus. Why? Because the same God who eliminates sin from our lives in the future, had that same kind of power 2,000 years ago.

    This is a prelude action in the past showing that God’s protection of Jesus manifests the realness of God’s Glory and Power in protecting Jesus at conception onward with no possibility for sin to be where God doesn’t want it (in the body and spirit of Jesus where God makes His abode in a house of flesh) and this same protection is transferred to the rest of humanity at a future time.

    In this sinful world God is either causing or allowing things to happen. God will quarantine sin and keep it away from touching us in any way in our future existence; just like He quarantined the sins of Joseph and Mary so that them being the mother and father of Jesus could never tarnish the righteousness of God or the 100 % human Temple of Jesus

    You missed my point, both the Mormon Church and the Jehovah Witnesses claim to be Christians.
    You missed my point, If a day in the Garden of Eden is 24 hours like our days in 2016, then the day after they sinned, they knew they didn’t understand what spiritual death was. They knew it wasn’t physical death because they are still alive. God clothed them and they saw death of an animal for the first time.

    Sincerely,
    ArthurTrafford.com

    • TCB

      “I know you believe in the future when God sets up his kingdom on earth and that everyone will be separated from his or her sin nature.”

      I believe we will all be baptized with Aionian Fire.

      “Our sins will be separated from us as far as the east is from the west.”

      Not before judgment. And many will be left with age-abiding shame.

      “Since God has the power to cleanse and protect us from dealing with sin in the future, then that same loving God has the power to protect Jesus from the human sin natures of Joseph and Mary.”

      Arthur, you’re speculating again. Why do you do that when God has already spoken on these matters? There is nothing God cannot do. But He tells us what He DID DO and what He WILL DO. Won’t you listen to Him rather than being constantly misled by your own imagination or the fantasies concocted in the minds of other men?

      “…protecting Jesus at conception onward…”

      Words, Arthur. Meaningless words.

      “…this same protection is transferred to the rest of humanity at a future time.”

      No it isn’t. Do you know what it means to be saved? It means that we will be spared from His wrath. Judgment is coming to the lawless reprobates of this world – both the living and the dead. Have you not read the prophecy of wine vat of blood? God has told us just what will befall the wicked and we do well to recall that God tends to UNDERSTATE things. It will not be pretty and you do NOT want to be counted amongst those who are made to drink the dregs of the grapes of wrath. And WOE to anyone who imagines those verses of Scripture are mere decorative literary devices and not much else besides. We pay heed to what He has said to us in His Word or we will be bereft of all excuse In That Day.

      “In this sinful world God is either causing or allowing things to happen.”

      Nothing but true.

      “God will quarantine sin and keep it away from touching us in any way in our future existence…”

      No. God will write His Law on our hearts and we will be remade in the image of His Son. We will become perfect even as He is perfect. We will have life in us as He does and we will be set-apart from lawlessness because our natures will have been perfected: the change from beast nature to spirit nature will then be complete.

      “…He quarantined the sins of Joseph and Mary…”

      Prove it.

      “You missed my point, both the Mormon Church and the Jehovah Witnesses claim to be Christians.”

      What difference does that make? A Satanist might claim to be a Christian. A Muslim might claim to be a Christian. The words of men have no basis in actual fact unless those words accord with that which is TRUE. But the words of men have no bearing, one way or another, on that which is true.

      “If a day in the Garden of Eden is 24 hours like our days in 2016, then the day after they sinned…”

      Won’t you stop speculating and just be content with what He has given us? Are you lacking? It’s because you don’t understand His Word. Are you searching for something you don’t have? It’s because you are looking in the wrong place. You will never find ANYTHING of actual value outside of what He has revealed to us and for us, with the glory of it all returning to Him. Have you even thought to thank Him for what He has given you? Or are you only concerned with looking for something else you think you would rather have instead.

      “God clothed them and they saw death of an animal for the first time.”

      More inattention to detail. Adam and Eve were not clothed with animal skins. They were clothed with skins. If we insert the word ‘animal’ into Genesis 3:21 then we change what is written. And if you don’t know where the Garden was and is and you don’t know that when Adam and Eve were clothed with skins it means they were clothed with bodies of flesh and blood, it’s because to this point you’ve been considering only the Reader’s Digest version of the Bible – the simplest meaning of the simple words as they appear on the page and nothing more. But we eat our bread through the sweat of our brow. That was both a commandment and a prophecy. We labor for these truths or we don’t find them. Seeking means more than just reading. The revelations we can mine out of Scripture are staggering and will leave your jaw on the floor and tears in your eyes. If you knew His Word the way I do Arthur, you would be in a very different place than you are right now.

  • This essay is written from a logic perspective. From a secular or religious viewpoint, I don’t care if someone embraces a Deist, Theist or atheist world view; we should all agree that there is no need or reason for humans to be in a place called hell. Plus, I think it is more important that a person understands what motivates them to choose to include or exclude religious faith in their daily lives. Many individuals have hidden or damaged emotions that are buried in a sea of pain; who were traumatized and tormented by the religious fanatics they know.

    No Humans in Hell ESSAY

    First of all, I have to recant my original Christian presuppositions about hell; for it is no longer an obvious or provable fact that humans can deserve to be put in hell by their Creator. Humans are made in the image of God, and God really loves that part of us that is made in His image; which means that He can only express love for us (His children). His wrath, judgment or hatred toward us is only directed against our sin nature. And someday He will separate our 2 natures; restore us to perfection and place all our sins in the same dwelling place of hell to be eternal companions of Lucifer and the other fallen angles.

    My spiritual image in God’s likeness can’t be harmed, tarnished, changed or destroyed by the actions of myself, Satan or anyone else. Humans try to get revenge on others who have hurt them when they purposely harm others spiritually, emotionally or physically; and we think God is just like us, and desires to punish or harm us for not being “Perfect”.

    Christians will acknowledge that God prepared hell to be the dwelling place for the Devil and his angels; but they make no distinction between our 2 natures, our spiritual DNA (forever with God) and our propensity, inclination or predisposition to sin in what we think, do and say (which will be what is cast into hell).

    “Parables teach an abstract argument, using a concrete narrative which is more easily grasped”. A universal truth can be gleaned from a parables instructive story after we hear and understand the meaning of a parable; and once we know the meaning of that parable, it is no longer a “Mystery”, but it is now revealed truth that should be applied to our daily lives.

    Throughout human history, religious people of faith pretty much subconsciously promote the idea that God will deliberately classify certain actions or thoughts as being sinful; in order to catch us in a sin, so that God can send us to hell for disobeying Him. All the Apostles of Jesus believed that concept when they said, “Shall we call fire down from Heaven and consume our enemies”. They, like us have been so angry that we have wanted to kill someone and send them to hell (if we could). And if we were God, or His messenger of death to others, we would have the opportunity and the power to carry out our evil wishes of vengeance against others.

    In the Garden of Eden there were no “Unclean” creatures; for everything God made is perfect. After the spiritual death of Adam and Eve, then death visited all living things; then vultures and other species became the clean-up crew to devour all dead things and recycle them back into the soil as nutrients to sustain the planet. An out of control planet couldn’t sustain an all vegetarian diet for all species, for there would be no trees, plants or shrubs to create photosynthesis (oxygen) if ever green thing was devoured. A vulture and other creatures are only “Unclean” in that they show a drastic change from what God had originally intended creation to remain, in a perfect universe; and unbridled procreation of all species would overrun our planet if too many species in the food chain were vegetarians. But I am glad elephants are vegetarian ha ha.

    After they disobeyed God, then their spirit nature and physical nature changed. They became spiritually blind (but not totally blind) and were kicked-out of the garden. They left the Garden of Eden simply because imperfect humans don’t deserve a perfect environment. And God didn’t send them to Hell because they disobeyed Him. Some counselors have you watch movies, in order for you to make an emotional connection with what is happening in the movies and see if what happened in the movie sparks memories of any situations that affected you in a negative way which hurt you spiritually, emotionally or physically. Everything wrong in our physical universe is God using our earthly experiences to make the point that for everything created to be perfect, God is the only being in existence who has the ability, power and desire to not change His mind or actions (in a negative way); for He has always been perfect and will be the ONLY source of our future perfection.

    God will quarantine every sin of mine I have committed against God, self or others and these sins will be hidden in the domain of hell, never again to be thought about or remembered. When the Apostle Peter was taken up to Heaven, an angel put a burning coal on his tongue, which is symbolic of God’s cleansing him and hid or quarantined his sins so that Heaven wouldn’t be contaminated by his presence in Heaven.

    Human logic pretty much makes God look like He has the same limitations as mankind. If a police officer arrives at the location of a domestic disturbance and the officer discerns that the intent of a man is to kill someone; then the officer will warn the person to not make a move. If the person ignores the officer, then they will have no other choice but to use deadly force and prevent the innocent officer or other people from being harmed. If God decided to stop that violent person, He wouldn’t have to kill him, for He has the power to strike him temporally blind, cause him to pass out or make him unable to move.

    God has no reason to send anyone to Hell simply because He can separate their “In God’s image” from their sin nature; just like someone with the right equipment can take sewage water and retrieve distilled drinking water with our modern technology. All religions like to use the “Throw the baby out with the bath water” principle and completely ignore making a distinction of the pee and poop being separate and different from the actual baby that is loved and cared for by its parents, loved ones, and friends that are in the child’s life.

    Christians are told that “For now we see in a mirror dimly”, which means we are given more Grace from God because of our spiritual blindness; and the reason why hell is prepared for the Devil and his angels is because they are 100% spirit beings and they are totally responsible for their choices because pure TRUTH being revealed to them makes them 100% accountable for the choices they make. People of every faith need to stop trying to condemn people made in the image of God and think they can be cast into Hell.

    We are told that the Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword. Now this sword of the spirit in human life and language has been dulled by the traditions of men, women and Satan himself; but the Heavenly language words spoken by the Spirit of God is sharper than any two-edged sword. A human sword can separate body parts; but the perfect Word of God sword can separate the soul (mind, will and emotions) body and our spirit made in the image of God. So God can redeem us and quarantine our old nature and never again should we be so foolish to think God would want to send us (and our old nature) to co-exist together in Hell since God loves us enough to separate our wheat from our chaff.

    May my thoughts be more logic driven, avoiding religious fanaticism and truly acknowledging the love of God for all humans destined to continually be in the presence of God, to love and be loved by Him forever!

    Sincerely,
    ArthurTrafford.com

    • TCB

      “…we should all agree that there is no need or reason for humans to be in a place called hell.”

      Still busy arguing against God. But it might help matters if you set forth the definition for what you think hell is. Is it Hades? Is it Gehenna? What is hell and do you believe what the Bible has to teach about hell?

      “…who were traumatized and tormented by the religious fanatics they know.”

      A very common excuse. I wonder just how true the excuses really are. Ultimately it reduces to repeated cases of blaming God for the unrighteous deeds of men.

      “His wrath, judgment or hatred toward us is only directed against our sin nature.”

      I would say you’re getting there, but you’re not quite there. Mankind is born with a beast nature. Often we will hear men say things like: This is the way God made me. And it is true that God DID make us the way we are. But if we hear His teachings and we adhere to His Word, then we learn that He expects us to labor to overcome our congenital beast nature and He teaches us how that is to be done.

      “…eternal companions of Lucifer and the other fallen angles.”

      Nothing will abide in hell eternally because hell itself will not abide eternally.

      “…in order to catch us in a sin, so that God can send us to hell for disobeying Him.”

      Whoever thinks such things exists in a state of gross error.

      “…a drastic change from what God had originally intended creation to remain, in a perfect universe…”

      If that’s what God intended, then God is a failure. Clearly that is not what God intended. Have you ever stopped to consider that all things are the way they are for a reason, and that those reasons were foreordained and are a big part of His plans? Have you considered that you might live in the best of all worlds possible with a view toward accomplishing that which God has set out to accomplish? Have you considered that everything is as it should be and that even evil itself plays an indispensable role in the furtherance of God’s good plans?

      “He has always been perfect and will be the ONLY source of our future perfection.”

      That is well-said.

      “God will quarantine every sin of mine I have committed against God, self or others and these sins will be hidden in the domain of hell, never again to be thought about or remembered.”

      You walk imprudently. We, each of us, will be called to account for every misdeed we’ve ever perpetrated. Those of us who are not willing and active recipients and participants in His Gospel message will be called to pay for every cent they owe. Only the blessed will not have their sins laid to their own charge – and the blessed are the believers who are counted amongst the Body of Christ; the believers according to the biblical definition of belief who are called children of Abraham according to the promise.

      “When the Apostle Peter was taken up to Heaven…”

      Chapter and verse please.

      “God has no reason to send anyone to Hell…”

      He does indeed and He has explained those reasons to us. Hell is retributive. Hell is punitive. Hell is a punishment. But because God is a just God and because we are limited beings who commit limited crimes, there is no such thing as eternal punishment in an eternal abode of fire or darkness. A sentence to abide in hell after death is not an eternal sentence. Justice forbids an infinite penalty for a finite crime. Moreover, nothing like the doctrine of eternal punishment even exists in the Greek New Testament. That doctrine exists in translation only.

      “…pee and poop…”

      Just a suggestion: You should talk about such things less. This is the third time you’ve posted a reference of this kind. Consider your reasons.

      “…hell is prepared for the Devil and his angels is because they are 100% spirit beings and they are totally responsible for their choices…”

      This is unscriptural commentary. There is ONE autonomous will and it belongs to God. No creaturely will is purely autonomous.

      “…because pure TRUTH being revealed to them makes them 100% accountable for the choices they make.”

      Speculation.

      “…the Heavenly language words spoken by the Spirit of God is sharper than any two-edged sword.”

      God’s Word transcends our concepts of language.

      “…God can redeem us and quarantine our old nature…”

      God will destroy the beast nature and every vestige of it. But for most of mankind this will be a very unpleasant and a very painful experience – and also, and perhaps more importantly, one of indeterminate duration. Take heed.

      “…and never again should we be so foolish to think God would want to send us (and our old nature) to co-exist together in Hell since God loves us enough to separate our wheat from our chaff.”

      It is a dangerous message you preach and one which utterly ignores the concepts of justice and retribution. Most imprudent.

      “…truly acknowledging the love of God for all humans destined to continually be in the presence of God, to love and be loved by Him forever!”

      There’s merit to that notion Arthur, but you are jumping to the end of the story and ignoring the very real hell that awaits the enemies of God and the other lawless reprobates who have lived their lives in selfish rebellion to all things righteous, just and true.

  • I have read every ones postings. Thanks for sharing your viewpoints. We don’t have to completely agree with each other’s worldview. Jews, Christians, Muslims and other faiths need to know and love the God of our Salvation,

    Emmanuel, The Christ who died for our sins 2,000 years ago, redeemed us by shedding His blood, and is coming soon to set up His Kingdom on earth. Amen – so be it !!!

    Sincerely,
    ArthurTrafford.com

    • Completely agree?

      Pfft!

      We hardly agree.

    • Nice, Arthur. Way to dodge the topic and shrink into generalities. Are you genuine… or are you just interpreting things in a way that fits your world view? Both? Eh. I don’t care at this point.

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