After the Death of Jesus Was the Torah Removed From the Ark of the Covenant and Thus No Longer Holy to God?
After the death of Jesus was the Torah removed from the Ark of the Covenant and thus no longer HOLY to GOD?
The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament written by Moses.
Moses copied down in 5 books all the words God spoke to him while on the mountain: thus the Torah IS the WORD of GOD – as - The Torah came directly from the mouth of GOD.
The Torah is NOT a book of the JEWS. Moses is a Levite from the tribe of Levi and not a Jew from the tribe of Ju’ dah. But the Jews were given the charge of preserving the oracles of God i.e. what Is called today the Old Testament in which is the Torah.
The Torah was written and given to the Children of Israel as their contractual duty of the Covenant they agreed to and was all they had during the 40 years in the wilderness and even long after they entered the Promised Land.
The vast majority of “Christians” believe Christ abolished the LAW which they believe to be only the 10 commandments but when the term “The Law” is used in the Old Testament that term is the Hebrew word – TORAH
Here are two examples:
Genesis 26
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Jeremiah 31
33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
In verse 5 and 33 the term “the law” is the Hebrew word for Torah.
#8451
Strong’s Concordance
torah: direction, instruction, law
Original Word: תּוֹרָה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: torah
Phonetic Spelling: (to-raw’)
Short Definition: law
The term “book of the Law” means the Torah, ask any Rabbi .
The following scriptures reveal just how important to God is HIS Torah.
Exodus 25
16 And thou shalt put into the ark –“the testimony” – which I shall give thee.
20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth [their] wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces [shall look] one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark;—-and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which [are] upon the ark of the testimony, of all [things] which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
Exodus 26
31 And thou shalt make a vail [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:
32 And thou shalt hang it upon four pillars of shittim [wood] overlaid with gold: their hooks [shall be of] gold, upon the four sockets of silver.
33 And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy [place] and the most holy.
This is the Vail that was ripped from top to bottom at the death of Christ showing Christ removed the sin that kept us from the Throne of the Father.
34 And thou shalt put the mercy seat upon the ark of the testimony in the most holy [place].
35 And thou shalt set the table without the vail, and the candlestick over against the table on the side of the tabernacle toward the south: and thou shalt put the table on the north side.
Exodus 31
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, – two tables of testimony, — tables of stone,– written with the finger of God.
The two tables of stone upon which God wrote with HIS finger, the 10 Commandments, ARE the TESTIMONY! They are the TWO witnesses against all of mankind.
According to Torah Law two witnesses must give their testimony before a person can be put to death thus two tables of stone.
Deuteronomy 31
26 Take this book of the law, – and put it in the side —of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, —— that it may be there for a witness against thee.
The Book of the law i.e. The Torah is so HOLY to GOD Moses put the Torah into the Ark of the Covenant along side of the two tables Testimony i.e the two tables of stone written with the finger of GOD.
The Torah is now the third witness against man.
Deuteronomy 17
.6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
The Ark of the Covenant has sitting upon it the Mercy Seat which is the Throne of God the Father, that Throne Jesus Christ now stands on the right side of and both the Mercy Seat and the Ark of the Covenant are in the MOST HOLY PLACE i.e. the Holy of Holies.
If the Word of God i.e. the Torah was not Holy to God then why is it under God the Fathers Throne in the Holy of Holies?
Either the Torah remains HOLY to GOD and yet sits in the Ark of the Covenant or it had to be removed and its HOLYNESS stripped.
If any can come forth with a scripture stating the Torah was removed from the Ark of the Covenant upon which the Throne of the FATHER sits –- produce it.
If it has not been removed and thus is no longer HOLY then it must yet be HOLY in the eyes of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
If the Torah is yet HOLY to God the Father and Jesus Christ qualified as our Passover by living by every WORD found in the Torah and everything Christ taught came from the Torah –
Why are you not living by every WORD FOUND IN THE TORAH.
Are we not to live by every WORD of GOD and is the Torah not the WORD OF GOD?
Please understand one important point, the Sacrificial law was added after the Covenant was agreed to because of transgressions and the Sacrificial law pointed us to that ONE sacrifice of Jesus Christ and when Christ died He ended the Sacrificial Law.
To observe the Torah one no longer must offer animal sacrifices.
Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week —– he shall cause the “sacrifice’ and the oblation to cease,
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destined2B
Here is biblical subject you may well want to address — as it refutes what you teach completely.
I know you will not comment as there is no way for you to disprove the biblical point being made/
It is a biblical fact according to the bibles own figures that last days are the last 70 years of the number of years between BC596…to AD70 = 666 yrs the period of time outlined once as a MAN and once as a BEAST in Daniel Ch 2 & 7 respectively .as the time the 7 fold (7 seals/trumps vials) curse of the law of Moses was poured out on the physical seed of Israel purified until only a spiritual seed was left…
This is also how we know slam dunk that Muhammad was a false teacher…just like most “bible teaching Christians”…….THE SECOND COMING Thou Fool! “I come quickly” so “Hold fast till i come”… NOT …“in another 2000 yrs I might be coming soon any time now, so hold fast”!?! …those that deny the second coming of Christ in that first generation are practicing a damnable heresy in denying the lord that bought them ( 2Peter 2:1-2 ;2Tim 4:8)…….Mat 7:23..”I NEVER KNEW YOU” …..Mat 10:33. But whosoever shall deny me before men……..sound familiar?…. ……. If I said I am coming to your house in this generation when these things happen but no one knows the day or hour what fool would think I might be coming in 2000 years latter!?!? ..2 Tim 4: 4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be TURNED UNTO FABLES.
Gal 1: 8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
The book of Revelation offers us an interesting Theological dilemma. It states Rev 22:16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. Revelation also states it is “the true sayings” of Jesus and that it is “the testimony of Christ”. If this is not “the gospel of Jesus Christ” then what is it and should we consider it accursed testimony of an angel? If it is not to be considered accursed, then it cannot be some other gospel message then what was already given previously. However, this is the conundrum, for if this is the gospel message, then why do so few understand it? There is a possibility which few consider but is the overall thesis of this apology. The reason people don’t understand revelation is because they never understood what the gospel message was in the first place! In that case, where does that put those who claim it is not essential for salvation? Do you not find it quite curious that the most “Personally” given NT book By Jesus himself, is the least understood and given the least importance for Salvation in Christendom?….There are numerous preachers and bible exegetes but as Paul said “… I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge” . Most who profess the name of Christ are feeding on doctrines of devils and the ignorant.. There are, without question, many “qualified” teachers and scholars with many years of “dedication” and “solid education”. However, teachers, no matter how well lettered or numbered in degrees; if obtained from others; who are just as equally ignorant in such matters, are just “ blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.”………………
Revelation the First Gospel of the Kingdom
978-1-4907-0590-3 (ISBN)
Those looking for a physical return of Christ and your physical body to “leave the dirt” resurrected (1Cor 15:36-37) you are carnal mined & or living in prov 26:12
DAY OF THE LORD”/ YEAR OF THE LORD – does NOT last for 24 hours!?!..Also means the day of resurrection & judgment do not last for one hour or one day either! They only begin (NOT END) in a certain hour & on a certain 24 hour day ….”SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS to arise”…..NOT..”come & get (your new resurrected body) it while it is still hot, only 24 hours of solar power left”!?!
https://www.scribd.com/doc/308485609/Day-of-Lord-Not-24-Hours-I-Come-Quickly
The second coming took place already and Christ promised that only HIS PEOPLE would see him ….John 14:19. Yet a little while, and THE WORLD SEETH ME NO MORE;….. [2 Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ AFTER THE FLESH, yet NOW HENCEFORTH KNOW WE HIM NO MORE….(here the Context of John 14 is his second coming)…..continued…..but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20. AT THAT DAY .. 21. He that hath my commandments, and KEEPETH THEM, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and WILL MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM……(again taking note “as he is” or 1Jn 3:2)
22. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, HOW IS IT THAT THOU WILT MANIFEST THYSELF UNTO US AND NOT UNTO THE WORLD? 23. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, HE WILL KEEP MY WORDS: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.( Rev 3:20) 24. He that loveth me not.. (1Cor 16:22)…. KEEPETH NOT MY SAYINGS: ( REV 9:16-20)
REVELATION 1:7. Behold, HE COMETH WITH CLOUDS; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, …. There is a parallel here with ………….Exodus 24:10. And THEY SAW THE GOD OF ISRAEL : and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also THEY SAW GOD, and did eat and drink………..But Christ said….. John 1:18. NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. A person can see with their understanding and or see with their eyes…. It can see “seen” for certain that everything that Christ described was seen by the folks of that day in His coming but do they perceive that was him? …So what Christ said is true every eye saw him but the world does not see him….. With the eye they and folks still today can see everything Christ described to have taken place, but they do not “keep” ( believe and understand) his words as such they do not see him nor shall they ever.
The saints who have physical died faithful in the flesh (every man in his own order) are changed in the blink of an eye & caught up to sit on that Great white throne ( this congregation of the saints is the body of Christ that folks will answer to at the judgment and these saints will judge all men who cannot see Christ along with the rest of the world……Folks think they are waiting to see Jesus but they will NEVER see Jesus himself they will only see the body of Christ condemn them the saints judge the world (Rev 3:21; 1 Cor 6:2 et al) the saints are the body of Christ…that is the only part of Christ they shall see….only the saints shall see God face to face…..most peoples idea of the second coming & day of the Lord and the judgment is completely wrong
http://www.globethics.net/gtl/5455069 Revelation The First Gospel of The Kingdom
or
https://www.scribd.com/doc/305366745/Revelation-the-First-Gospel-of-the-Kingdom
or
https://www.academia.edu/23464127/REVELATION_THE_FIRST_GOSPEL_OF_THE_KINGDOM
978-1-4907-0590-3 (SC ISBN)
goastdale
go back to your teacher and explain the Him a “day’ is one year in prophecy thus the Day of the Lord is a one year period.
Also explain the Day of the Lord follows the Sixth Seal which is the heavenly signs as per Joel 2
30″And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, —–before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
the Day of the Lord is the 7th Seal a one year period in which the 7 Trumpet plagues are poured out on the gentile nations and at the Last Trump, the 7th, Christ returns and the first resurrection takes place.
goast your teacher is wrong it this is what He teaches:
“DAY OF THE LORD”/ YEAR OF THE LORD – does NOT last for 24 hours!?!..Also means the day of resurrection & judgment do not last for one hour or one day either! They only begin (NOT END) in a certain hour & on a certain 24 hour day ….”SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS to arise”…..NOT..”come & get (your new resurrected body) it while it is still hot, only 24 hours of solar power left”!?! ”
Research the term “In that Day” and see what you find.
You are following a very deceived man why not turn to Jesus Christ and let HIM reveal the Father to you.
all you bible thumpers quote scripture like it is the voice of god talking using a language that is 500 years old and like it is how god talks–the bible was written completely by men–insane men–ok-inspired by what ever–just like me sitting here typing–who can deny me that god is not completely inspiring my typing? because you dont agree with me? you are brainless fools–talk to god yourself-i do, god talks to me and sometimes i listen just like every other idiot on this planet–to be waving some stupid book(bible) like its a god thing is insane–god has never read that book and pays zero attention to any of it–god is way above the stupid inclinations of humans–we can be like god but god is never like us petty,foolish humans–never–and if you cant understand that then you are dumb as a box of rocks–and very immature–to quote the bible like it is god’s law is insane–its the word of men,not god–all you insane bible thumpers,christians attack me and wish me to hell like you have that power-your an asshole–a judgemental one–satans right hand buddy–god has no wrath,no judgement–only hateful humans do–god knows who we are–how we are–little childish shitheads trying to make a go on this planet–jesus died and give every single one of us salvation,even you judgemental dickhead christians,bible thumpers –so go ahead talk all your bullshit–that is all it is–your a damaged brainless moron –yes i am human too–judgemental also but i know it–you f up bible thumpers think only you have answer and nobody else does–your idiots-go live with the taliban–they have all the answers too and they quote their bullshit out of their stupid bible also-someday the whole middle east will be in flames–burnt to a crisp and whole lot of other places too–just the way humans are–we have these toys(nukes) and by god we are going to use them!!–does not take a genius or bible thumper to figure that one out–so all you christians/bible thumpers who think only you have the answer go the one place you really need to be,hell…
b4 I feel very sorry for you
“b4 I feel very sorry for you”
That’s where I’m at with it too. It’s never too late to develop hobbies and make new friends.
During the Second Temple Time period, there was no Art of The Covenant in The Holies of Holies.
The Temple that Herod expanded.
It was present during the 1st Temple time period.
living
It is true Herod’s Temple did not have the Ark of the Covenant, but that Ark is a physical copy of the Spiritual Ark in the Temple of God in heaven and God hid the Ark for a reason – it is not lost God knows exactly where it is. God knows when a sparrow falls – God loses Nothing.
The article is right, the Torah is still Holy to God. God’s Law is ALSO still in effect TODAY, just like Jesus said it would be in Matthew 5:17-19.
Scripture clearly states that only those who will return to keeping and living by The Law, will survive:
Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the Day cometh, that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the “I AM” Lord of hosts, that it shall leave of them neither root nor branch (nothing).
4:2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in The Day that I shall do [this], saith the “I AM” Lord of hosts.
4:4 Remember ye and return to The Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the Statutes and Judgments.
4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the “I AM” (Sura 43:61):
4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
God Bless and Peace be with you. http://JAHTruth.net
Malachi 4:1-6 (KOFK) :- http://jahtruth.net/kofk-free/Bible/44mal.htm#4_1
The Way home or face The Fire :- http://jahtruth.net/wayad.htm
The Law of God (Torah) :- http://jahtruth.net/nsongad.htm
True the Law did not go away, however the law has found fulfillment in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus/Yeshua. When Jesus is accepted as the fulfillment of the law we then rest from all our works in order to trust that His works were made complete. By the Holy Spirit’s leading we are then are able to be renewed in all our actions which resembles the righteous standards as prescribed by the law. In other words Jesus is the short cut to us fulfilling our obligation to the law.
Gordon, “true Law” what in the world does that mean???
Gordon if you consider Jeremiah to be a TRUE prophet of God then listen to him; Jeremiah 31: 33
33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Gordon I challenge you to look up the word law in verse 33 in Strong’s it means TORAH,. The Torah is the TRUE LAW of God and God is putting the Torah in the minds of His Saints and making the Torah their nature.
The Torah is the Law Christ perfectly obeyed to become our Passover, it is GOD’s Law not the Jews.
Gordon if I remember correctly you are some kind of minister if you are or not please read this paper and then point by point prove by scripture and logic how wrong it is – I know you can not or that you will even try.
“however the law has found fulfillment in the death,” Gordon what in the world do you mean with this false confusing statement??
That word “fulfil” found in verse 17 ‘Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil”. Does not mean ended, abolished, finished it usefulness, or any such thing.
Here is what Strong’s has to say
pléroó: to make full, to complete
Original Word: πληρόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pléroó
Phonetic Spelling: (play-ro’-o)
Short Definition: I fill, fulfill, complete
Definition: I fill, fulfill, complete.
Gordon, Christ came to “Make full” the law, it was only physical and now Christ fill it to the full it is now spiritual as well – the Law is now complete.
Again Gordon really? ”Jesus is the short cut to us fulfilling our obligation to the law.” Gordon there are no short cuts with God – face the fact that you hate the HOLY LAW of God and I would think especially the Sabbath.
Gordon in this paper are many scriptures spoken or inspired by God — NONE teach what you believe in fact they are to the contrary.
I find many twist the HOLY WORD of God to comply with what they want it to say, but all that does is convict that person of sin.
GRANTED I COULD HAVE USED MORE EFFORT IN MY EXPLAINATION
WE ARE IN AGREEMENT ON THESE ABOVE POINTS. WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO CONVEY.
HOWEVER IF YOU ARE NOW GOING TO TRY AND KEEP THE TORAH LAW THROUGH NATURAL MEANS (BY YOUR OWN EFFORTS) THEN YOU INVALIDATE THE WORK OF CHRIST FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR RELIGION.
Again Gordon really? ”Jesus is the short cut to us fulfilling our obligation to the law.”
Gordon there are no short cuts with God –
NO YOU ARE WRONG ON THIS POINT. HE IS OUR SHORTCUT TO A HOLY LIFE.
You know, Gordon, they always say that but none refute Truthseeker’s articles.
I, for one but there’ll be others, would be fascinated to read an explanation on how God changed His mind.
Mayhem
I just finished a paper on “the Spirit in Man”, we will see who will choke on this one.
Let me know what you think —
I will put it on in few minutes
Gordon was the Torah removed from the Ark of the Covenant?
IS the Torah no longer HOLY?
Unless you can prove otherwise the Torah remains HOLY to God;
If God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ yet hold the Torah as HOLY why are you not keeping the Sabbath and the 7 Holy Feasts of GOD?
The 7 Holy Days are days all males are commanded to present themselves before God in the place He places His name.
Did Christ end that commandment? show where He did so .. you know Christ observed them all to fulfill all righteousness.
Gordon when I fulfill all of the duties found in a contract I am a party to — it does not end that contract the contract survives and a suit for ‘specific performance” can be filled at any time thereafter.
I can find no termination date for the first Covenant/contract, if you would be so kind and show us where that clause can be located that would be of interest.
The First/old Covenant is found in its entirety in Leviticus 26 1 – 39
If I recall from previous talks you had a hard time comprehending the finished work of Christ and how Jesus Yeshua accomplished all things to bring us back to the Father. For this reason I leave you with an excerpt regarding something I wrote.
When we speak of new life, and new birth, we are talking about being hidden “in” God. He has supernaturally placed us within the Son that He loves and it is “in Him”; in His Spirit that we live, move and have our being. We enter into the life of a Spiritual King who reigns from above.
John 17:20-22 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
God supernaturally ushered us into the Kingdom, by supernaturally ushering us into the King.
If we remain in God then we remain sealed within the life and power of this one Savior. He is abundant in all His ways and that benefit is passed on to us as we find refuge in Him. There are over one hundred and fifty references in the New Testament regarding being “in Christ” (in Christ, in Jesus, in God, in Spirit and in Him). Some of those references simply invite us to identify with Him, but many specifically describe where we dwell and how the Son of God sustains us from within that place of Spiritual serenity and security. *
Ephesians 1:22-23 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
2 Corinthians 5:21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
New life is then the result of our close union with Jesus. By being immersed in God we are surrounded by all the advantages of His Kingdom and remain sealed within His Name and victory over death. Basically the believer adds nothing of value to their eternal walk without being “in” Christ; a union that enables us to comprehend a single line of truth found in One God, One faith and One Spirit.
1 John 3:24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Gordon the work Christ finished was the payment for our sins.
Christ was crucified from before creation began –Christ was before creation going to become our Passover. That was the plan from the beginning.
And Gordon it is GOD’s Passover not the Jews.
Moments before He died He said “it is finished” – Man’s payment for sin was paid in full by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
Satan hates God’s Holy Law as it convicts him as a sinner and the natural mind of man i,e, carnal human nature also hates that Law and can not live by it and refuses to do so.
Christ came to forgive our sins so that the Holy Seed of the Father could dwell in a repentant, baptized person and that repentant person by the laying on of hands can receive that ONE Spirit of the Father and yes it is that same ONE Spirit that is in Christ and raised Him from death..
That Holy Spirit i.e. Seed allows our conversion from carnal human nature over to God’s Divine Holy and Righteous nature.
When all are converted no man will need teach another because ALL will have that same Divine Nature of God which is revealed by the Torah that same Torah which Christ taught and lived by to become our Passover.
Gordon what is being converted? Christ stated unless one is converted they can NOT enter the kingdom?
Godson Jeremiah 31: 33 states God will put in His people His Torah, that Hebrew word for Law is Torah.
You quoted Paul,
2 Corinthians 5:21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Christ became SIN for us and Christ who had NO SIN took all the sins of mankind upon Himself and that SIN took HIS LIFE so the Father could see us as sinless and thus see us as righteous.
Gordon there are NO short cuts, it is by much tribulation we will enter the Family of GOD and those that endure until the end THEY shall be saved.
It is by the circumcision with out hands that our carnal human nature is being cut away and replaced with God Divine Holy Nature.
Yes Gordon we must be IN the body of Christ, that same body He will wed again.
Gordon read the paper show us how wrong it is.
If the Torah has not been removed from the Ark of the Covenant and its state of being HOLY to God removed then it IS HOLY and must be obeyed.
Gordon the natural mind of man can never be subject to the Laws of God this is the root of your problem.
Gordon here is the Last chapter of the Old Testament — has this been removed from the WORD of GOD? Has this admonition been voided?
God the Father and HIS son Jesus the Christ are going to burn up as stubble the wicked,
Gordon what exactly IS wickedness if not the transgression of the HOLY LAW ?
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. {THE END OF THE PROPHETS.}
Gordon the word heart means nature, our carnal human nature must be converted to the Divine righteous Holy nature of the Father.
Gordon I did not answer this statement of yours,
HOWEVER IF YOU ARE NOW GOING TO TRY AND KEEP THE TORAH LAW THROUGH NATURAL MEANS (BY YOUR OWN EFFORTS) THEN YOU INVALIDATE THE WORK OF CHRIST FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR RELIGION.
Gordon in my comment above I am showing you I can begin to obey the HOLY Torah because of God’s spirit and because my mature is being converted — I do NOT by natural means obey, I am a sinner worthy of death — it is by the power of God working in me that I LOVE THE HOLY LAW AND WILLINGLY WANT TO OBEY.
I can do all things because my Father and His “Son dwell in me by that ONE spirit.
You mention Jeremiah 31: 33 God will put His Torah in His people
How did it get in there? By the indwelling Holy Spirit right?
If God put it in there then let God be the one that accomplishes its most perfect work in your life.
However you keep taking it out of your heart and trying to relate to it as if you are obligated to fulfill its commands.
Only God can show you that He alone is the Author and Finisher of your faith.
Gordon do you actually read my comments?
I know you could not possibly have read my papers and still make the comments as you do?
In my comments and in the paper it is explained God is converting our nature (that which you incorrectly call the heart) God is converting our carnal human nature over to HIS Divine Holy Nature by the circumcision without hands.
because of God’s Divine Nature HE can never transgress HIS HOLY LAW — never sin — once we are born again as spirit we too will never sin again.
But now we are flesh and blood and sin so easily besets us and we do sin and sin is the transgressions of the LAW i.e. the Torah — 1 John 3: 4
Yes Gordon we are obligated to rest on the Sabbath and commanded to present ourselves before God on HIS Holy Feast days and to eat only clean meats and yes we are not to fornicate, lie, steal or take God’s name in vain nor have other gods before the ONE GOD.
Christ did not do the above FOR us but as our example to follow as we follow HIM. We are to DO !!!!
Gordon do you lie and fornicate and lust because you are not obligated to fulfill Gods Commandments?
If so then the apostle John calls you a liar
“He that saith I know HIM and keepth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him”
Gordon what is John talking about if not observing – living by the Commandments of GOD?
FOR SOME REASON THIS FORUM ONLY ALLOWS A COUPLE OF COMUNICATIONS WITH AN INDIVIDUAL AND THEN WITHHOLDS A “REPLY” BUTTOM.
SO TRUTHSEEKER THIS IS REGARDS YOUR LAST COMMUNICATION AND I SIGN OFF AFTER THIS.
I keep the commandments as God enables me. So when you read John and it says “commandments” it is not the torah he is talking about. He is talking about that which comes from Christ as part of the new Covenant.
The Greek definition for “commandment” is entolē not torah
The apostles where also given a commission to bring order to the churches with commandments that reflected the new covenant message.
Acts 1:2
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
As for the Sabbath, if you knew the finished work of Jesus then you would know being in Him is being in the Lord of the Sabbath.
He is our Sabbath rest not our Sabbath obligation.
Hebrews 4:8-10
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[a] just as God did from his.
What confirms our need to stop working the message of Christ and start living it requires the message of the Cross which declares that you died and Jesus now lives. http://www.shadow-free.com/christian-youre-supposed-to-be-dead/
With out a clear understanding of this important biblical point we may say we trust God but actually we trust ourselves to live the Christian life.
Truthseeker You are saved and dedicated to Jesus, it is apparent.
but you are adding steps to the Christian life that bring bondage to your brothers and sisters. Go ask the Father to show you where you are harming the body of Christ with your religious views. I do this often as well.
Gordon,
Please explain exactly what commandments you are talking about as I can only find Christ teaching the Torah in which are the 10 commandments and those commandment are the Witness against us and the two tables of stone on which are written by the finger of GOD the 10 Commandments are the Testimony against mankind.
Shall I bring up the scriptures says exactly what I just stated above and those very scriptures are in my paper which you have not read.
also Gordon Christ pointed out exactly which Commandment we must KEEP if we desire eternal life — do you not remember the conversation with the rich man?
(Mark 10:17-31; Luke 18:18-30)
Matthew 18
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, ————- that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, ——– keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, —–Which? ——Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, — All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Gordon you are doing back flips trying to get out of obeying GOD — and I keep presenting scripture proving that is exactly what you are doing.
Jesus Christ listed the commandments that show us how to love our fellow man and they are of the 10 and Christ told the rich man if he desired eternal life THESE ARE TO BE OBEYED,
Christ left out the 4 that show us how to love God because the rich man put his wealth in front of God thus He transgressed all 10.
Gordon face it, it is the duty of the servant to obey His Master and Jesus Christ is our Master and HE has stated repeatedly “KEEP the Commandments.
And yet you refuses to obey your savior.
Gordon one more point, Paul clearly states the only change with the new contract are the promises, Paul thus is saying the Law i.e. the Torah remains the “consideration” in the new contract due from the House of Israel.
Gordon how long will you refuse to obey your Father and HIS Son?
God knows all the excuses that mankind has for not obeying and they are worthless.
Gordon here is my comments on your last comment;
I keep the commandments as God enables me. So when you read John and it says “commandments” it is not the torah he is talking about. He is talking about that which comes from Christ as part of the new Covenant.
The Greek definition for “commandment” is entolē not torah
My answer: Gordon it was Jesus Christ that wrote the Commandments in the two stones – they are HIS Commandments. If you require proof it can be supplied.
Also Christ ONLY did the will of the Father – Christ only spoke what the Father gave him to speak and Christ only did what the Father showed Him to do — do you need the scriptures spoken by Christ confirming the above?
Thus Gordon, nothing came from Christ ONLY the Father.
The apostles where also given a commission to bring order to the churches with commandments that reflected the new covenant message.
Acts 1:2
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen
My answer: Gordon first there is no ‘ghost’ and the commands Christ gave concerned the operation of the body of Christ and the work the apostles were to perform as apostles of Christ – this has not one thing to do with ‘New law or commandments’:
As for the Sabbath, if you knew the finished work of Jesus then you would know being in Him is being in the Lord of the Sabbath.
He is our Sabbath rest not our Sabbath obligation.
My answer: Gordon Christ is NOT our Sabbath, the Sabbath Is HOLY time created on the 7th day of creation week and the Sabbath of rest that is coming is the 1000 year reign of Christ after He has put Satan and his fallen angels far from the earth – thus man has a rest from sin for 1000 years coming soon.
Hebrews 4:8-10
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[a] just as God did from his.
My answer: Yes there is a day coming and that day is the 7th 1000 year day, the 1000 year reign of Christ.
Gordon look up that scripture: Here is the NIV translation; 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,e just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Did you catch verse 11? The rest is yet ahead and we are to make every effort enter and NOT perish because of DISOBEDIENCE Gordon what have I been telling you – OBEY!
Some translation say “ there remains therefore the keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God. God’s People will be keeping the Sabbath before and after the return of Christ.
What confirms our need to stop working the message of Christ and start living it requires the message of the Cross which declares that you died and Jesus now lives.
My answer”: it is a stake and not a cross – the word is Stauros, up right stake. ?? Stop working the message of Christ you mean ignore what Christ told us to do?
And what is the message of the stake i.e. the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as our PASSOVER Christ was put to death because you and I have sinned against God the Father by transgressing HIS HOLY LAW– that is the message of the stake and that our sins killed Christ.
http://www.shadow-free.com/christian-youre-supposed-to-be-dead.
With out a clear understanding of this important biblical point we may say we trust God but actually we trust ourselves to live the Christian life.
My answer: I trust no man not even my self —-I can do nothing on my own. With out the power of the Father’s spirit working in me I could not take the next breath of air. Gordon what I write comes from my study not for what some other person wrote, I rarely read what some minister thinks.
Truthseeker You are saved and dedicated to Jesus, it is apparent.
but you are adding steps to the Christian life that bring bondage to your brothers and sisters. Go ask the Father to show you where you are harming the body of Christ with your religious views. I do this often as well.
My Answer: I am in the salvation process and have been since 1969 , I am enduring all things by the power of God and I know my Father will never cast me away and I seek to do the will of our Father just like Christ did. Jesus Christ is my Master and my high priest My elder brother who intervenes for me with our Father.
I desire and strive to give my life as a living sacrifice to our Father and I know this is HIS will for me to do so. I follow Jesus Christ as HE followed the Father as our example.
I worship i.e. imitate and copy the Father and Him only — as did Jesus Christ.
Gordon I am nothing but that being said it appears you have never come across a person that follows Jesus Christ AS HE follows our Father – which I do. I have nothing to do with the 40,000 flavors of so called Christianity and never have.
I’m done but I leave you with this;Matthew 22:36-40
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Your working too hard in order to gain what you already have in Jesus Yeshua.
The thing is, Gordon, we don’t deny those passages and nor do we read into them. Do you not notice that the royal commandments are a summation of the 10 commandments? Surely for the first four commandments concern our relationship with God and the remainder treatise on human interaction.
When the Pharisee inquired of Jesus it wasn’t so much a question of knowledge as it was one of judgement. Jesus replied by summarizing the whole of the law into two great commandments. How can you not see Jesus upholding the law He taught from and quoted in rebuke?
Matthew 22:37-39
Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. [Deut 6:5] This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ [Lev 19:18]
I don’t know how to make it any clearer or more succinct.
mayhem you answered well but poor Gordon is struggling very very hard NOT to obey.
Gordon, as all Law haters, NEVER touch the scriptures we post that without doubt state we are required to obey.
Did Gordon, even in passing, acknowledge even slightly Matthew 18 in which Christ listed the commandments we must obey if we desire eternal life??
No because he can not twist that one.
I could be wrong but I think Gordon is a minister which is sad.
Christ says over and over “those that DO” and Gordon teaches his flock “do nothing”
and by the way, as you are well aware, Christ was quoting from the Torah which according to Gordon has now become moot.
Gordon
Do us as all a favor, print out this paper and take it to your minister friends and as a professional team of biblical scholars go through it word by word, point by point and scripture by scripture and then show how off the mark we are.
To date none have accepted that challenge. I do not understand why?