Nephilim... Reprise: And The Sons of God
Some people took exception to my previous post, “Nephilim.. Fallen Ones?”, and are still struggling with the uses of the Hebrew word that has been transliterated in some Bible versions in Genesis 6:4. So, let’s take a second look at the subject matter in a slightly different way. (Click on my contributor profile if you would like to read the previous post.)
Both men and angels are created by God. Both are called “sons of God” within the Scriptures. The phrase is used twice in Genesis, 3 times in Job, and 6 times in the KJV New Testament, or 5 times in Young’s Literal Translation. The KJV translates some verses as “children of God” which Young’s translates as “sons of God“, and vice versa. You must use the context of the discussion, the subject matter of the chapter to determine which “sons” are being discussed. We will look at both the KJV, and Young’s Literal Translation. (Again bold emphasis is mine.)
Except for its use in Job, the phrase “sons of God” refers to men. In Job 1:6, “…sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah…” and Job 2: 1, ” …sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah…” (Young’s) In the KJV Job 1:6 is, ” Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord,” and Job 2:1 is, ” Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord,”
In Job, God has called a staff meeting, and the angels appear before God at their stations, probably in a specific order. They are reporting before the Most High for instructions. Earthly men cannot be under discussion here as they cannot appear before God in this manner. In Job 38:7, the poetic parallel verse confirms, ” In the singing together of stars of morning, And all sons of God shout for joy,” as it is speaking of the creation of the earth before He had created man. (Young’s) So, the context of the phrase “sons of God” recorded in Job is obviously speaking of the angels of heaven.
The uses of “sons of God” in the New Testament are:
Matt: 5:9, in the Beatitudes..” Happy the peacemakers — because they shall be called Sons of God.“ (Young’s ) but, the KJV has “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.” (KJV)
John 1:12, ” But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” (KJV), or “but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name,” (Young’s)
Rom. 8:14, “ For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.“ (KJV, and Young’s agree)
Rom. 8:19, ” for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;“ (Young’s) or, ” For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.” (KJV)
Gal. 3:26, “ for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus,” (Young’s), but the KJV renders this verse, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.“ (KJV)
Philip. 2:15, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;” (KJV), or Young’s has “ that ye may become blameless and harmless, children of God, unblemished in the midst of a generation crooked and perverse, among whom ye do appear as luminaries in the world,”
1 John 3:1, 2; “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. ” (KJV),
but in Young’s it is rendered, ” See ye what love the Father hath given to us, that children of God we may be called; because of this the world doth not know us, because it did not know Him; 2 beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;
These are all used in context in the New Testament speaking to and of the saved Christians who have put on Christ through baptism.. immersion in water…. and are in the body of Christ. These are men and women, not angels.
Now the question has risen about the meaning of the phrase as it is used in chapter 6 of Genesis due to some confusion over both grammar and sensationalism. Just as above, we will look at the context, the subject matter, to determine which “sons of God” are being discussed. Genesis Chapter 6 is discussing the evil that has come over the world and God’s regret that He had made man.
“1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.“ (KJV)
The subject matter is mankind, men. God is not speaking of angels in this scripture. It begins with men multiplying, conceiving and bearing more children. In verse 2, the daughters of men are fair, or beautiful, and the men are choosing the daughters for wives based upon their beauty. And, God records in verse 3 how He has decided to set an age limit on mankind so that He is not striving with man on an individual basis as long as He had before. 120 years is evidently long enough to allow a man to determine his character, whether to live righteously, or to live to sin.
There is then a sentence break beginning after verse 3. That means that a new thought was begun in verse 4. The word “giants” in the King James version is translated as “fallen-ones” in Young’s, and is transliterated from the Hebrew in the NIV, and in many other versions as “nephilim”. The words “after that” in verse 4 seem to be ignored by many readers. The “giants”, or “fallen-ones”, or “nephilim” are not a result of “when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men”. They were already existing.
The word “giants” in the King James is questionable, as the correct translation is “fallen ones”. As noted in my previous post titled “Nephilim.. Fallen Ones?”, Clarke’s commentary points out,
” It may be necessary to remark here that our translators have rendered seven different Hebrew words by the one term giants, viz., nephilim, gibborim, enachim, rephaim, emim, and zamzummim ; by which appellatives are probably meant in general persons of great knowledge, piety, courage, wickedness, etc., and not men of enormous stature, as is generally conjectured.”
Those translators who chose to use the Hebrew word “nephilim” in place of an English translation deliberately caused confusion for sensational speculation. Either way, the context of the Scriptures is mankind, and then specifically, the fallen of mankind. Wicked and evil men. Angels are not under discussion.
There is no basis for imagining that angels are fornicating with women on earth. Not only does Matt. 22:30 tell us that the physics of angels are different than those of mankind, but Genesis 1 sets the rules that science today teaches .. all species propagate or bear “after their kind”. Genesis 5 reinforces the physics set by God as Adam, “… begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:” Gen. 5:3. You cannot plant an orange seed, and get an apple tree!
To imagine that God would be discussing a science fiction scenario in Genesis 6 is the very same kind of imagination of wicked and evil men He repented that He had made! It is also not a logical progression of the subject matter.
The word “giants”, or “nephilim” or “fallen ones” are not sons of God in this text, or it would have been translated as sons of God both times within the same verse! That means that the sons of God in the second half of verse 4 are not the fallen ones in the first half of verse 4. They are different!
The sons of God in verse 4 are the same sons of God in verse 2 that took wives of all of the fair daughters of men. Wives are married to husbands. The connotations must also be acknowledged. God is not recording events of some imagined spiritual hybridization. That is Hollywood science fiction bunk.
When Matt. 22:30 says, ” For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.”, he is telling us that the angels were created by God without gender. They were created by God without the ability to propagate. Even those that fell from heaven in rebellion with Satan could not become physically other than they were created by God. They would not magically obtain the ability to conceive and bear children.
Luke 20:35, 36 discusses this same event, and records it, ” But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: for neither are they able to die any more — for they are like messengers — and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again.” (Young’s). Here “sons of God” is referring to the resurrected of those who have died in Christ and cannot die again..then they become like the messengers / angels, neither male nor female, neither given nor taken in marriage, unable to be born physically again, as they are not going to die again!
If those who are worthy to obtain eternal life become like the messengers, or angels in heaven, then the angels in heaven do not have the ability to bear children either when they are physically in heaven, or running messages to earth!
12 But where shall wisdom be found? and where is the place of understanding? 13 Man knoweth not the price thereof; neither is it found in the land of the living.” Job 28:12, 13 (KJV)
“And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.“ Job 28: 28 (KJV)
The “fallen ones” as correctly translated in Gen 6:4 in Young’s Literal Translation are the wicked and evil men under discussion as the entire subject matter of the first seven verses of Gen. 6, and are the reason that their wickedness grew throughout the world so that God repented that had He made man. Those who followed after God were the sons of God, and they fell for the outward physical beauty of the daughters of unrighteous men.
The result was that God determined to wipe out the evil and wicked people on earth with the flood, saving only Noah and his wife, and his three sons, and their three wives.. along with most of the species of the rest of God’s creation… by twos, male and female, all which reproduce after their kind… as He gives instructions and is the subject matter of the rest of Chapter 6.
Angels are not referenced anywhere in Gen. 6, and therefore are not the “sons of God” spoken of in Gen. 6.
Again, for those who have believed the Hollywood lie repeated often in as many movies as they can, that all you have to do is look inside yourself to find truth… God’s word says differently.
“Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.” Ps. 119:160
:”O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” Jer. 10:23
Hollywood gives us, “Search your feelings, Luke.” But, it is to God that we look for truth, and it is His word that we must depend upon. Whether you wish to call them “giants” or “nephilim” or the correct translation of “fallen ones”, they are the wicked men who chose not to follow God. The sons of God in Gen. 6 are the righteous men who followed after God.
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Whistler Blowers, Insiders
Who are the “sons of God” according to your bibles? Read the following passages most that preach “sons of God = angels” never seem to share…
John 1:12, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
Romans 8:14, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
Romans 8:19, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.”
Philippians 2:15, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;”
1 John 3:1, “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.”
1 John 3:2, “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
Does this series of passages describe fallen angels? Or is it describing the followers of God? The Sons of God were, and still are the people of God. They sinned in that they took women to wife that God specifically commanded against. It’s that simple.
Also see this study… http://biblelight.net/nephilim.htm
I know. It seems straightforward to me. I just don’t know why so many people insist that the sons of God were angels that fell from heaven and began having sex with women. Nice link, and I agree with most of it. Thanks.
Amminadab,
You said you used the interlinears and concordances. I guess you didn’t do that in this case. Why not?
One at a time, here are the verses you cite:
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name…
How are you reading this? “…gave them power to BECOME…” Have you finished becoming? Are you remade in the image of Messiah? The process has barely begun with us, brother. None of us have BECOME. Incidentally, the Greek word for ‘sons’ in this case is G5043 τέκνον teknon; and not G5207 υἱός uihos. It is G5207 which is used every time Messiah is referred to as the SON in New Testament Scripture.
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
In this verse, the Greek word for ‘sons’ is in fact G5207 υἱός uihos. But five verses later, we find some clarity about Paul’s meaning. I’m glad you quoted it:
Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the ***MANIFESTATION*** of the sons of God.
How you think this verse supports your contention, I have no idea.
Manifestation = G602 ἀποκάλυψις apokalupsis
From G601; disclosure: – appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
That language is specific to the nature of our topic. We, the creature, earnestly wait for the ‘appearance’; for the ‘disclosure’; for the ‘coming’; for the ‘revelation’ of the Sons of God. The verse plainly tells us we wait. We wait because it hasn’t happened yet. This is the disclosure of what we shall be, as John wrote in another verse you quoted. More on that in a minute.
Philippians 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world…
The word for ‘sons’ in this verse is not G5207 υἱός uihos, but is instead G5043 τέκνον teknon; a child.
None of the above verses are problematic in the slightest degree for those who hold the view of Scripture you make it your habit to oppose.
Two verses from 1 John are somewhat more difficult to clarify by using our Bible study tools:
1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Sounds like you might have a winner. Guess we better keep reading and see:
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be…
Does ‘doth not yet’ really need explaining? You see that this is in reference to what SHALL be, don’t you? ‘Now are we the sons of God’ is a reference to what is coming; to the inheritance of all who seek after and follow The Son – those who inherit with Him. I know John said ‘now’ Amminadab, but this matter is too crucial to just box up and refuse any further consideration. You’re missing something very important. You’re missing the entire thread which runs right through the written Word from the beginning to the end: the importance of understanding MINGLED SEED.
Properly understanding the Biblical doctrine of mingled seed is as crucial today as it ever has been.
From where you are standing, refusing to look at legitimate facts and evidence, you will never be able to rightly understand the importance of an ordinance like this:
Leviticus 19:19
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
The rabbis are looking through microscopes to ensure their woolen fabric isn’t contaminated with a speck of linen; and vice-verse. That’s because, like you, they’ve missed the intended meaning of the Instruction.
The Bene Ha’Elohim were most certainly not men.
It has already happened, Walter. Please read the posts on my contributor link ..It’s Not The End of The World, Parts 1 – X. The process has been established. We are in the church age now. We are in His kingdom, and are added to the body of Christ when we are baptized into Christ. Once we put on Christ, and are covered by His blood, then we are sons of God. We do not have to wait for anything any longer. His kingdom is here. He came the second time as promised to those listening in the first century A.D.
New concept for you. Take some time with it, as you will need to undo all of the programming the Catholics did over the last 1700 years, and then the deliberate twisting of the word by the Zionists with their funded Scofield bible.
Every Christian who is faithful unto death goes home to heaven when their soul leaves the fleshly body.
Thank you for the invitation to read your other material, but I have read enough of it to know all I need to about your doctrine.
“It has already happened…”
You cannot look out of your window and tell me all has been completed with a straight face. We are witnessing, like pieces on a chessboard, the entities from the Book of Revelation being moved into position. Any suggestion that we’ve yet reached the end of the age is dead on the vine.
“The process has been established.”
Messiah came and He finished what He came to do – but the work of Salvation is HARDLY at its end.
“We are in the church age now.”
Scripture recognizes no such animal as ‘church age.’ That is an extra-biblical term and it is an extra-biblical concept.
“We are in His kingdom…”
Messiah has not as yet received the Throne of His Kingdom. It hasn’t happened yet sister.
“…and are added to the body of Christ when we are baptized into Christ.”
A confirming witness for that statement, if you please? Chapter and verse, if you don’t mind. What may sound good to our ears is irrelevant. What is written is all we need to know about this matter. All additions or embellishments to the Word are nothing worth.
“Once we put on Christ, and are covered by His blood, then we are sons of God.”
According to the New Testament Scriptures previously discussed on this board, I do not concur with that assessment. We may be rightly said to be inheritors of that title. We, hopefully, will become as such. When John said that ‘now are we sons of God’, I do not believe he meant we are finished becoming what we will become. More, I know that isn’t what he meant.
“We do not have to wait for anything any longer.”
False teaching.
“His kingdom is here.”
His Kingdom is not yet here. Messiah will RULE THE NATIONS with a Rod of Iron? Did you forget that part? Looks like sin and lawlessness still have the run of pretty much every square inch of this world. Suggestions to the contrary are ludicrous.
“He came the second time as promised to those listening in the first century A.D.”
He did? Where was I? Was I asleep? Was I on a journey? Were the righteous resurrected?
“New concept for you. Take some time with it…”
I would ask you not to patronize me, but considering my terse words for you the other day I suppose a little salt is in order.
“…as you will need to undo all of the programming the Catholics did over the last 1700 years…”
I’m not a Catholic and I’m not a student of Scofield, sister. What I am is a student of the Word. The Word does the driving and I am but a passenger. Your concepts may have merit, but they have merit only in your own mind. I am well aware of your teaching and I suggest to you that you violate both the letter of Paul’s instructions and you violate the Spirit of the Scriptural Narrative. Your espoused views on the Scriptural Narrative are, quite frankly, stale and uncouth.
“Every Christian who is faithful unto death goes home to heaven when their soul leaves the fleshly body.”
There’s not a single verse of Scripture you can point to which reflects support for that statement. Your understanding, even of the basics, is unsound.
You obviously have not read the posts enough to know, or you wouldn’t be writing as you are. You cannot read the NT as though it was written to you. It was written almost 2,000 years ago. Everything in the Bible is recorded for our edification. It does not mean that everything in the NT is speaking to you!
The last days spoken of in the NT were the last days of the old covenant, and I have analyzed the scriptures in as easy a way as I possibly could so that all can follow them. Your understanding that you are clinging to is not taught in the Bible. It was taught by men who twisted the word to mean what they wanted it to mean, and not what it said.
God’s word never talks about ending the physical world. And, as long as people are being born, there will always be evil in the physical world because of free will. That does not deny the existence of His kingdom. Reading only enough to see that it counters your belief does not mean that you have fairly considered the scriptures, and you have rejected the scriptures because you are invested in a world belief that is so blinding you cannot see what the scriptures really say. Your choice.
And it is not my doctrine. It is straight out of the scriptures.
“You obviously have not read the posts enough to know, or you wouldn’t be writing as you are.”
Sister, I have no need of your personal interpretation of the written Word. I study the written Word – I do not concern myself with what you, Amminadab, or anyone else has to say about the written Word. The Word itself teaches. Contained within the Word are the Instructions for rightly comprehending the Word. I don’t say that to be rude, but only blunt. In years past I devoted much time to commentaries and interpretations of Scripture, written by men (and sometimes women) who had a greater or lesser understanding of Truth. I no longer concern myself with any of it. The Book is enough. I maintain it would take a man over 1000 years of full-time study to wrangle from its pages even the majority of all the Book has to teach. The Book is bottomless and limitless; if not literally (which it may be) then the next closest thing.
“You cannot read the NT as though it was written to you.”
That is an outrageous thing to say – and something which betrays a foundational error in your comprehension and insight. The New Testament was most definitely written to us. It was written to every seeker and believer. The Words of Messiah which were for the Apostles only, did not find their way into the pages of Scripture. If Messiah said it, and you and I read it, then it was most assuredly said and written to us. I’m more than a little shocked at your assertion. Stale, I say. Uncouth.
“Everything in the Bible is recorded for our edification.”
The Bible is LIFE. The words written are nothing less than the roadmap to the Way. Contained within its pages are everything we need to know in order to successfully navigate the highways and byways of this world, en rout to the Tree of Life.
“It does not mean that everything in the NT is speaking to you!”
I reject to that statement with every ounce of my being. That statement is not only false, but it is dangerous.
“I have analyzed the scriptures in as easy a way as I possibly could so that all can follow them.”
Sister, I’m beginning to wonder who you think you are. No one needs your help rightly dividing the Word of Truth. You may BE a help to others (I frankly have my doubts); but you are in no way NEEDED to inform anyone, to guide anyone in their search for the Truth. The audacity of your statement is more than a little disquieting and off-putting.
“Your understanding that you are clinging to is not taught in the Bible.”
I have shown it to you in the Bible. I will proceed to show it to you further if you ask me to. I can most certainly do that. I invent nothing. Your contention that your understanding ONLY is to be found in Scripture, to the exclusion of all other possibilities, is immature and common wrong-headed thinking. The view you advocate for is not the only possibility found within the pages of Scripture. One wonders just how long you’ve been at this task.
“It was taught by men who twisted the word to mean what they wanted it to mean, and not what it said.”
Such are the reasons why I shun all teaching about the Word. Let the Word be its own Teacher.
“God’s word never talks about ending the physical world.”
God’s Word speaks plainly of destroying the present Heavens and the present Earth. ‘Passed away’ is the term used in prophecy. Do you spin that up into something other than plain language’s meaning?
“…as long as people are being born, there will always be evil in the physical world because of free will.”
There is no such thing as free will for man. Why do you accuse me of being hamstrung by the doctrines of men when you yourself are contaminated by those very ideas? People going to Heaven? Free will of man? You are out of order, sister. You have brought along with you on your journey far more than you realize. Stop thinking of yourself as someone qualified to teach. You are nothing of the kind.
“Reading only enough to see that it counters your belief does not mean that you have fairly considered the scriptures, and you have rejected the scriptures because you are invested in a world belief that is so blinding you cannot see what the scriptures really say.”
Your mistake is utterly common and more than a little tiresome. From your pen does not issue Scripture, madam. I reject your handiwork as being of the poorest quality. Your foundation is shattered. Your framework is listing. Your façade is not even particularly well-appointed. Your work, madam, does not abide. I reject no part of the Scriptures.
“Your choice.”
Indeed. That is what we have. Freedom to choose. I have chosen.
You, Walter! You are the reason I feel such a need to write about the errors in discerning who is being spoken to with specific instructions, and what are general principles meant for all. The Old Testament was recorded for our edification. The New Testament was recorded almost 2,000 years ago for our edification. Too many lift the words of the New Testament out of the first century A.D. and place them into the 21st century trying to make specific instructions meant for those of the first century A.D. apply to us today. That is a big problem.
When Jesus told one of his disciples in Mat. 8:22, ” … Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.”, was that a specific instruction or meant for everyone?
When Jesus asked Saul in Acts 22:7, “…. Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?” , was Jesus speaking specifically to Saul or to everyone for all time?
I think we know that those were specific statements to specific people for events that took place in the first century A.D. The same principal applies to much of the New Testament which is history for us today. So, when we go to Romans and read what Paul wrote in the winter of A.D. 56 -57 to those Christians assembling in Rome during the first century A.D. do those statements apply to us today? Some of them do. Some of them don’t. And, that is the discernment that is lacking today.
Too many pick up specific statements made to specific people during a very special time in the first century A.D. and want to make them apply to us today. Paul told the Christians meeting in Rome to wait on the coming of the Lord. Paul told those Christians meeting at Corinth to wait on the coming of the Lord. He wasn’t telling us to wait on the coming of the Lord. He was telling them to wait. Was he lying to them?
The Christians of the first century A.D. were promised a second appearance of Christ, and from the judgment language used in the New Testament, which was the same as that used in the Old Testament, we can discern that this promised second appearance was going to be a national judgment in that generation against the scribes and Pharisees, against the Sadducees and the Sanhedrin council, and against all those that had rejected Him and pierced Him. The Christians of that day were told to wait for his coming. That coming of the Lord was still out in front of them. It happened in their generation just as He said it would. It happened at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70.
For us it is past, and that same instruction given to those meeting in Rome does not apply to us today. I went over all of this, building very gradually through each reason why so that the internal evidences in the New Testament could be relied upon. You have become emotionally upset and rejected any reasoning of the evidences from the word of God. They are not my interpretation. They are His words.
I am going to keep trying. You need not feel obligated to comment on any of my posts in future.
HEY, Gina!
Do not waste ONE MINUTE of your life for commenting with WALTER, The Pope of Pompous Galore, here on BIN!
For, he is NOTHING BUT a waste of life on earth, Who is ALWAYS RIGHT! For when it come to knowledge of the BOOK OF BABBLE’S never ending minutia, this MORON is the KING of Medieval Harry Potter Fantasies known now as judeo-christo-SCUMDUMB!
gina
When Jesus told one of his disciples in Mat. 8:22, ” … Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.”, was that a specific instruction or meant for everyone?
Yes!
let the spiritually dead bury the spiritually dead, and follow me into spiritual life eternal. Do not follow this evil satanic way of death but chose Life eternal and follow that narrow path to Life.
The WORD of God is for us today — all of it – every single Word, but it must be understood spiritually not in the physical as you are attempting to do.
I think I understand what you mean to say about spirituality, but I do not understand what you mean by “in the physical”. It is God who created us and put us in a physical world, in a physical fleshly body. We are in constant contact with other souls in like manner every day. We contend with sinful consequences in a physical environment till the day our soul returns to our heavenly Father. Paul said, “But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Rom. 7:23. That is one of our daily battles.
Christ came to earth, born of a woman, lived in a fleshly carnal body for our sake. He suffered scorn, was reviled, His physical body beaten, tortured, and finally crucified on a cross with nails in his hands and feet for our sake. This was a very physical appearance and a very physical sacrifice.
We are battling princes and principalities, kings, and high places for righteousness and this battle is often times physical. Even with the word of truth, and the whole armor of God, you cannot avoid a physical existence nor environment. God’s word deals with our physical being as well as our spiritual. The old sacrificial covenant was certainly physical.
I am trying to point out the time texts which many people are ignoring, and that is also a physical element of God’s word as it concerns events here on earth, in the physical realm God created. It is these time texts which certain evil agents have twisted to suit their particular agenda that I have pointed out in the first 10 posts on this site.
The new heavens and new earth, the new Jerusalem are spiritual. The ever-lasting Kingdom is spiritual. The body of Christ is spiritual. And those souls who have been covered by the blood of Christ will have an eternal home in heaven, the spiritual realm. We deal in both. So does God, and so does His word.
Gina wrote:
“Too many lift the words of the New Testament out of the first century A.D. and place them into the 21st century trying to make specific instructions meant for those of the first century A.D. apply to us today. That is a big problem.”
Very well. Then produce for us just one example of New Testament Instructions which were given to the brethren of the first century that no longer applies to us today. Just one example will do. To be honest with you, I will be very surprised if you provide an example. Your example about Messiah’s question to Paul is an illegitimate submission. More on that in a minute.
“When Jesus told one of his disciples in Mat. 8:22, ” … Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.”, was that a specific instruction or meant for everyone?”
Absolutely. Do you know who the dead are? Do you know why Messiah said to let the dead bury their dead? Please tell me if you think you know.
“When Jesus asked Saul in Acts 22:7, “…. Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?” , was Jesus speaking specifically to Saul or to everyone for all time?”
That’s a fine example of anemic arguing skills. When Messiah specifically addresses someone and ASKS THEM a question – no, He isn’t asking everyone. He wasn’t asking everyone in the first century and He isn’t asking everyone now. He was asking Paul. Let’s hope that was no indicator of your level of competence going forward. I’ll begin questioning your sincerity if it is.
“So, when we go to Romans and read what Paul wrote… …do those statements apply to us today? Some of them do. Some of them don’t.”
And I’ll ask again: which of them don’t?
“Paul told the Christians meeting in Rome to wait on the coming of the Lord. Paul told those Christians meeting at Corinth to wait on the coming of the Lord. He wasn’t telling us to wait on the coming of the Lord.”
False. Do you see a possibility that Paul early on in his writings presumed Messiah’s return would be much sooner that it is? I see that possibility. I also see its remedy in Paul’s later writings.
“He was telling them to wait. Was he lying to them?”
Of course he wasn’t lying. We still wait – even if you don’t.
“…we can discern that this promised second appearance was going to be a national judgment in that generation against the scribes and Pharisees, against the Sadducees and the Sanhedrin council…”
Then you discern amiss. Judah was sacked and burned. That was judgment. Why would you confuse that with the Second Coming? There’s no reason to do that. Have you read the Prophets?
Hosea 6:2
After two days will He revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight.
Do you know how to read that verse? How long was Messiah in the Heart of the Earth? How many years are as one day in the eyes of the Most High?
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
That should tell you something right there. What you think about the timing for Messiah’s return is not according to the Word. The Word tells us for how long we should be waiting; it tells us when to look for His Second Coming.
“The Christians of that day were told to wait for his coming.”
So they were. Whether it be, for them, two thousand years is beside the point. They wait on Him anyway, because they (like we) have no idea when their souls shall be required from them. If you die tomorrow, then for you, Messiah’s return might as well be tomorrow. If we die in sin, we have not waited on the Lord. The waiting is important – just ask the wise virgins. Or the unwise virgins.
“That coming of the Lord was still out in front of them. It happened in their generation just as He said it would.”
You misread the Word. Badly. Examine all of the attendant verses and phraseology in the Manuscripts and in the interlinears. Revisit what Messiah said. Messiah did not say He would return before the end of the generation alive at the time He was preaching Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
“It happened at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70.”
False. See Hosea. See Joshua:
Joshua 3:4
Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore.
Two thousand cubits. Do you think it an arbitrary distance at which the Israelites were told to FOLLOW the Ark of the Covenant across the Jordan? Do you know what rivers represent in Scripture? Rivers represent time, sister. Follow Messiah across the river of time at the space of about two thousand cubits / two thousand years. Do you think I’m inventing this imagery? Think again.
“For us it is past…”
That is false teaching. And you are not qualified to teach.
“I went over all of this, building very gradually through each reason why so that the internal evidences in the New Testament could be relied upon.”
See my earlier assessment of your work. My assessment stands. Your work does not.
“You have become emotionally upset and rejected any reasoning of the evidences from the word of God.”
You don’t know me well enough, sister. Perhaps that will change. Some of my lasting friendships with brothers and sisters in Messiah began just as adversarially as our own discourse has begun. I quote you the Word. I have bypassed nothing you’ve said or suggested. Your suggestions are wrong. Your interpretations are erroneous.
“They are not my interpretation. They are His words.”
You mishandle the Word.
“I am going to keep trying. You need not feel obligated to comment on any of my posts in future.”
I will reply as I feel led to reply. You may interact as you feel led to interact. Don’t expect to just waltz through here and post your deformities without occasional stiff resistance. If you expect to be judged fairly by your brethren, then please consider answering the questions I have put to you in this post. I, likewise, will answer any you put to me. That would go a long way toward narrowing our arena of focus. You set out to accomplish something. So stick it out and see where it leads. If you meet the resistance I am giving you, you will either communicate your views more profoundly in the face of defiance, or you will retreat in emotional distress (or perhaps silence) making your offered views look frail and insufficient.
This is work, sister. This is not our rest.
Believe it.
Good evening, all.
I see that Walter and Gina are now well met. I have been interested in seeing ‘just’ such a discussion take place.
I have provided many of the scriptures that do so. They are in the posts you have refused to read.
Gina wrote:
“I have provided many of the scriptures that do so. They are in the posts you have refused to read.”
That is a cop-out madam and you know it. That fits the pattern, precisely, of everyone else who comes to these sites unsure of their argument and unstable in their understanding of the Word.
“I already said it.” They say. “I already answered your questions.”
You have not.
If you did, then perhaps you would be kind enough to quote yourself. Or perhaps you would be kind enough to repeat yourself. I’m not asking you to re-write the entire body of what you have written. This is a tactic you are employing. One which does nothing in the minds of anyone reading our exchange, to either further your argument or to lend credibility to your claims.
It would be nice if, once in a while, we met with someone – like you – who came here to post their unusual or off-color claims about the Scriptures who actually had the ability and/or the inclination to withstand very simple questioning.
But the fact is none of you do. None of the folks who believe in errant doctrine can effectively defend their stance because their stance is rooted in poor scriptural comprehension.
Thus far your teaching has wilted before a light breeze. Your doctrinal positions have not withstood even the most cursory and rudimentary of examinations.
There is a lesson in that, sister.
E.W. Bullinger draws together all the “sons of God” texts in both testaments:
It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called “a son of God.” For that which is “born of the flesh is flesh.” God is spirit and that which is “born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3.6). Hence Adam is called a “son of God” in Luke 3.38. Those “in Christ” having the “new nature” which is by the direct creation of God (2 Cor. 5.17; Eph. 2.10) can be, and are called “sons of God” (John 1.13; Rom. 8.14, 15; 1 John 3.1).16
Let’s look at this another way:
Your argument Amminadab, is that at the time of Genesis chapter 6 there were men alive to whom the title we see spoken of in New Testament Scripture could even apply. Paul wrote:
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Now is that led of the Spirit in some things? Is it led of the Spirit in most things? Or is it led of the Spirit period; bar none.
You mock the concept that the Angels of Heaven could have stooped to the lawlessness defined; but you find nothing problematic about your assertion that Spirit-filled men, that is men who were LED of the Spirit, could have descended to such lawlessness.
Moreover, both Paul and John wrote of the momentous change in men – that at some point yet future, there will be such a change from children to sons:
…WHEN he shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is…
Now, let us suppose your assertion is correct and both Paul and John wrote about CERTAIN believers in the Son being worthy to lay claim to the title sons of God. Is it all believers? Are all believers led of the Spirit to the degree that Paul spoke of:
…but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
???
Does that describe you? Do you mortify the deeds of the body? I wish I could say it described me, but I would be lying if I said so. I do fast occasionally and I abstain from drugs, alcohol, tobacco and (lately) caffeine. But I hardly think that qualifies for the level of mortification Paul had in mind when he wrote the eighth chapter of his Letter to the Romans.
Paul and John are describing a consummation. No one is born a son of God. None but Messiah. We were all made in the image of fallen Adam; and must be re-made in the image of the Second Adam. The process of re-imaging is a lengthy and ongoing process. Certainly it is one which has not been completed in anyone I have ever met. None of us have been fully re-made in the image of Messiah. We are covered by the Blood of His Sacrifice (if we believe according to the Word) but that covering does not make us as He is. We are being made as He is. The process is ongoing and is one of becoming.
Led of the Spirit. Abraham was a man of God, but he lied to the Pharaoh. Noah was a righteous man, but he succumbed to wine and led his son into transgression. Were there men alive at the time of Genesis 6 who had even heard of the Spirit? Were there men alive at that time who were worthy to be called sons of God? My answer to that question – considering all that is written from Genesis to the maps – is a resounding ‘negative.’
Walter WANTS YOU TO bow down TO HIS white-skinned mangod for ALL of eternity, so WALTER will get MORE cities to rule over in his nightmarish vision of a white-skinned mangod Tyrant ruling over YOU forever!
Sounds like Medieval Times FOREVER to me, you FOOL!
HEY WALTER, what are you idiots going to do with your human sex organs for ALL of eternity, anyway?
ANSWER THE QUESTION, dim-witt!