"IF ” --- there was absolutely proof The Torah and the 10 Commandments existed long before they were given to Moses on the mountain -would that FACT effect your personal “core” beliefs ?
IF ” — there was absolutely proof The Torah and the 10 Commandments existed long before they were given to Moses on the mountain –
–and long before God made the Torah the “consideration” of the Covenant (contract) He made with the children of Israel —
—-would that FACT effect your personal “core” beliefs ?
The provable fact the Torah existed long before Moses was born – long before the first “Jew” was even born -– is another – fatal flaw – that undermines the core doctrines of “so called” Christianity.
One of Nominal Christianities core doctrines:
Yes Jesus was a Jew – but – He came to abolish “Jewish” Law and ‘Jewish” traditions such as the Sabbath, Passover, the 7 yearly Feasts and all things coming from the Torah. Jesus replaced them with the ‘Way of Love’. Jesus came to “free us” from all things “Jewish” which His Father has instituted.
Question:
If the Jews are the “Chosen People” why then isn’t Abraham, the father of all the faithful and the man God chose to begin His Chosen People — a Jew?
From Genesis to Revelation, Abraham is a Hebrew and never a Jew.
Is there one single scripture that states Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were Jews? Please produce it.
Question:
If the Law i.e. the Torah, The Sabbath, Passover etc. are Jewish how is it they existed long before the first Jew was born?
FACT:
Long before the words were spoken from the mouth of God to Moses on the Mountain —– the Torah existed and was known and was obeyed by the men chosen of God and even some gentiles were well aware of Torah Law!
What follows are the FACTS!
NOTE:
This study is for those seeking — Strong Meat – “The Truth”! Main points will be backed up by clear scripture -and – by sound logic.
First: what is the Torah and how important is it to God— anyway?
The Torah, the Five Books of Moses, were spoken to Moses by our Savior Jesus Christ during the 40 days and 40 nights Moses was on the mountain with Him.
The Torah is the — WORD of GOD.
Exodus 32: 15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony [were] in his hand: the tables [were] written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other [were] they written.
16 And the tables [were] the work of God, and the writing [was] the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
The two Great Precepts of the LAW: “Love God” and “Love neighbor’.
Matthew 22: 36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
The 10 Commandments, written on two tables of stone, are God’s written instructions showing – how -the two Great Precepts are to be accomplished.
The Torah reveals God’s Divine Nature, God’s mind, the GOD “WAY”: The Torah is God’s instruction book revealing to man how to live the God Way.
The foundations of God’s Torah are the two great commandments: 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
We are to follow Jesus Christ as HE demonstrated — for us — how to live by the WILL of God the Father as revealed in God’s Torah.
The Torah, “The Book of the Law”, was used by Moses for 40 years to judge the Children of Israel while in the wilderness and was carried by Joshua in the Ark of the Covenant into The Promised Land .
The Torah was the entirety of the WORD of God until the balance of the Tanakh i.e. Old Testament, was added over next 1500 plus years.
Nehemiah 8
1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that [was] before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the “book of the law” of Moses, — which the LORD had commanded to Israel.
2 Chronicles 34
14 And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the LORD, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the LORD [given] by Moses.
Moses ruled and judged all 12 tribes by the 5 Books, which are The Book of the Law i.e. the Torah, personally spoken to him by THE WORD who later came to earth as our Passover; Jesus Christ.
It is the LORD’s Law not the Hebrews or the Jews and it was our Savior and not His Father on the mountain with Moses – a fact easily proven in the Word of God.
The Torah – is – The WORD of GOD Jesus Christ used to defeat Satan and declared men are to live by it’s every WORD.
Matthew 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, — but by every “word” that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Deuteronomy 3: 3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
By “EVERY WORD” – and yet “Christians”, so called, have cast the Old Testament into the trash can even though the Tanakh was the entirety of the Word of God until what is called “the new Testament” was put together centuries later.
The five books of The Torah, which are — “The Book of the LAW”:
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers.
Jesus Christ’s “Sermon on the Mound” included many direct quotes from the Torah and the doctrines Jesus Christ lived and taught during His 3 ½ years of preaching the Good News of the coming Kingdom of God all came directly from God’s Torah.
The teachings of Jesus Christ were not His own – Christ taught what His Father instructed Him to teach. Christ did not come to change God the Father’s Plan of Salvation nor to usurp the authority of His Father as many believe and erroneously teach as Truth.
John 14: 24 He that loveth me — not — keepeth not –my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, — but the Father’s which sent me.
Jesus Christ changed nothing of the Father’s, Christ only taught His Father’s WORD and fulfilled His Father’s Will and never His own WILL.
John 5: 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just;—- because I seek not mine own will,— but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
What a travesty so called Christianity today has never been taught the 5 books of the Torah are so HOLY to God Moses place them in the Ark of the Covenant along side the two tables of stone on which Jesus Christ wrote the 10 Commandments with His own finger.
Deuteronomy 31: 26 Take this book of the “law” ( i.e. #8451 Torah),
and put it in the side —of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God,
that it may be there for a “witness’ against thee.
Most of so called Christianity has never been taught or bothered to read God’s Torah. WHY?
The Torah states: the Mercy Seat i.e. the Throne of the Father, sits on top of the Ark of the Covenant and both are in the Most Holy Place.
Read it for yourselves; Exodus 25: 16 – 22; Exodus 26: 31 – 35; Exodus 31: 18.
Most of Christianity believes the lie the Torah, which God the Father keeps under HIS Throne in the 3rd heaven in the Ark of the Covenant, is no longer Holy to our Father or to His Son Jesus Christ?
Do you believe God the Father would allow His Son Jesus to remove the 10 Commandments and the Torah from the Ark of the Covenant in heaven and nail them to His stake?
And it could not be only the 10 Commandments written on two tables of stone, it also would require the 5 Books of the Torah be nailed as well as the Torah is one of three witnesses testifying we are sinners worthy of the death penalty. If only the Commandments were nailed, the Torah still contains the 10 Commandments.
Can you quote scripture stating the Torah and or the Commandments are no longer Holy to God or would be abolished at the death of Jesus Christ?
Fact: “the ark of the covenant — ‘of ’– the LORD your God,”
The Ark and the Covenant and all in it belong to GOD and not
the Jews.
Returning to Deuteronomy 31: 26 Jesus Christ told Moses to put God’s Torah in side the Ark of the Covenant as a — “Witness” — against the People of the Covenant i.e. the 12 tribes of Israel.
The 10 Commandments are also two witnesses against God’s People i.e. “two” tables of stone. Why two stones, have you ever even asked that question?
Exodus 31: 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of — “testimony”, — tables of stone,— written with the finger of God.
Testimony is given by Witnesses, thus in the Ark of the Covenant are the three witnesses against God’s Chosen People — the 2 tables of stone and the Torah.
“If” — Jesus Christ removed the 5 Books of Moses and the Two Tables of Stone from the Ark of the Covenant which is kept under the Throne of HIS Father and took them to the grave with Him — then no longer would there be three witnesses testifying of our sins.
I doubt many are able to think this deep, but “Christians”, by any means possible, demand the entire Law be abolished — as the Commandments and the Torah are the 3 witnesses testifying every single person ever born are sinners.
Without two witnesses none could be put to death as Torah Law states only on the testimony of two or three witnesses can a person be put to death,
Deuteronomy 17: 6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Can you understand the implications from a logically perspective ?
If the above were true that “the witnesses” were removed, then, from the time of the death of Christ — it would be impossible to sin — and even so none could be put to death as all three witnesses were “dead” and buried in the grave with Christ?
And as the New Testament instructs us to “repent”, what would folks repent OF is there were no Law defining what sin IS?
Without the Torah there can be no Lake of Fire,
Without the Torah there could be — NO — Judgment!
Without the Torah including the 10 Commandments what law would or even could you be judged by ?
If the so called doctrine of Grace is what you believe “saves us”, consider this fact of logic:
Without the Torah there is no need for Grace.
As without the Torah, the list of Laws codifying what IS Sin: Sin could NOT exist.
Without using the Torah — sin can not be defined.
If there were no Torah there would be no need to repent and all those born after Christ’s sacrifice would not need to be cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ?
Is that what your Bible teaches? Is that what your church teaches?
If there were no law stating as a fact what sin IS — there can be NO SIN! Without 2 witnesses’ testifying – no one can be put to death for sin.
Please take some time and think the above through logically. 2 + 2 must equal 4.
The above are the FACTS as found in God’s Word – the Torah states every man born is a sinner and Every man born is “UNDER” sentence of death for their own sins. Thus we are all – NOW — “under” the Law i.e. “under” the penalty of death for our sins — unless or until the Blood of Jesus Christ has washed away our sins.
The foundational importance and the implications of God’s Torah have been established by the above scriptures and logic.
NOW — we will produce scriptures proving the Torah i.e. the Five Books of The Law existed from the beginning and ALL of God people are judged by that LAW from Adam on.
Note: we have error on the side of “over kill” in the number of scriptures used to prove the above.
For those demanding undeniable scriptural proof from the Word of God, God’s Torah existed long before it was given to Moses:
Genesis 26
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my “laws” :
The Hebrew word translated -“law” — in verse 5 is Torah #8451.
Look it up, prove it is the truth yourself.
Abraham kept the Commandments and the Statutes, all part of God’s Torah and taught them to his children.
Genesis 18: 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep ‘the way of the LORD”,
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Genesis 2: 2
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
The Torah in Exodus 20 instructs us “to remember” the Sabbath day, which was made for mankind on the 7th day of creation and to keep it Holy. The Sabbath is not a “Jewish” day or even a Hebrew day — it is God’s day that He made Holy time as recorded in Genesis 2, one of the 5 books of the Torah.
Exodus 20: 8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day [is] the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
The seventh day IS the Sabbath — OF THE LORD — not the Jews!
11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The Sabbath was made on the next day after Adam was made, on the 7th day. Adam was not a Jew but from Adam came all the tribes of this world including the Tribe of Judah.
The Sabbath is a day God made and set aside for mankind and not for the Jews alone — so states God’s Torah and our Savior.
Mark 2
27 And he said unto them, The Sabbath “was made” for “man”, and not man for the Sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord (Master) also of the Sabbath.
Please quote the scripture stating our LORD and Master is now Lord of the first day of the week i.e. the day of the sun and that He has made it Holy time. We are waiting for your response.
God’s people from the very beginning kept God’s Torah and the 7th day Sabbath which is a Torah commandment. The word rendered “Law” in all 5 books of the Torah – is the Hebrew word – Torah – #8451; “towarh”.
Adam and Eve were instructed to dress and to keep the Garden of Eden. We find no command in Genesis given Adam concerning working in the Garden on the Sabbath but would God make a day of rest for mankind and then forget to tell the first man Adam he must rest on that day? The DAY is HOLY time from the 7th day of creation: Adam kept the Sabbath.
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Genesis 3
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Leviticus 17
11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: — for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul (living being, # 5315 – nephesh).
Adam and Eve sinned and sin is the transgression of the LAW i.e. the Torah ; 1 John 3: 4. Because of their sins, Jesus Christ bled to death very likely lambs to “cover” Adam and Eve’s sins.
This, in my opinion, was the first Passover and the One that came to earth as Jesus Christ, our Passover, was demonstrating to Adam and Eve their sins required the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, as only by His shed blood can their sins be wiped away.
Paul, a Torah scholar, makes this clear in Hebrews 9.
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood “he” entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, – sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Purifying “physically” i.e. the flesh, not spiritually.
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works (sinning) to serve the living God?
And later we find Abel using this same instruction found in Leviticus 17: 11 i.e. for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.
Genesis 4
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock — and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Here in Leviticus 1 and Deuteronomy 12 we find the detailed instructions Abel followed.
Leviticus 1
10 And if his offering [be] of the flocks, [namely], of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male without blemish.
11 And he shall kill it on the side of the altar northward before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron’s sons, shall sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar.
12 And he shall cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat: and the priest shall lay them in order on the wood that [is] on the fire which [is] upon the altar:
Deuteronomy 12
6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
In Leviticus 11: 1 – 47, a Torah Book, we find the Statute of clean and unclean meats.
Leviticus 11
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These [are] the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that [are] on the earth.
This is not a new Statute it was so from the beginning, did Abel offer God a pig as a sacrifice? No, it came from his “flock” of sheep and goats.
Genesis 4; 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
In Noah’s day the Statute of clean and unclean beasts was in effect.
And again Noah was not a Jew or even a Hebrew; the Statute of clean and unclean meats IS NOT JEWISH. The Torah, in which is found the Statute of clean and unclean meats, existed long before the first Jew, Ju-dah, was born.
Genesis 7
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.
How did Noah know which were clean and which were not clean? The Bible does not tell us but God is stating it as a known fact that Noah should know.
Genesis 8
20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
This same Statute is also found in Deuteronomy 14: 1 – 20.
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Genesis 20: 6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from —“sinning — against me’: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
The above is the account of Abraham, Sarah and Abimelech, king of Gerar.
Abraham told the king Sarah was his sister so the king would not kill him and take Sarah. If Abraham was dead, Sarah would be free to marry.
God intervened in a dream and told the king Sarah was Abraham’s wife to prevent the king becoming an adulterer and the King knew adultery was a sin. All sin is against GOD.
Adultery is the 7th of the 10 Commandments found in chapter 20 of the Torah book of Exodus.
Exodus 20: 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
This king knew God had a Law against committing adultery before it was written on the tables of stone by Jesus Christ and knew there was a penalty for transgressing God’s Holy Law.
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God’s Torah allows the 12 tribes of Israel to own bondmen and bondmaids i.e. slaves. Only the heathen, gentiles, can be owned in perpetuity but not a Hebrew from one of the 12 tribes.
Yes! God allows slavery and when Christ returns the 12 tribes, after they are given the Promised Land in perpetuity, will again own slaves from the gentile nations.
Leviticus 25; 44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, [shall be] of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that [are] with you, which they begat in your land: and — they — shall be your “possession”.
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them for] a possession; —– they shall be your bondmen for ever:—— but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
Abraham and his wife Sarah owned servants i.e. slaves and those servants/slaves were part of the inheritance, the birthright of Isaac.
Genesis 16: 1 Now Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name [was] Hagar.
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong [be] upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.
6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid [is] in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
The word above “maid” is # 8198. shiphchah and is translated as:
female (9), female servant (3), female servants (5), maid (20), maids (5), maidservant (15), maidservants (1), servants* (6), slave (1), slave girl (1), slaves* (4), women (1).
Hagar was a “possession” and Sarai had the right to give her in marriage, deal with her “hardly”, force her to leave or even to sell her: Hagar was the property of Sarai and Sarai also owned the children of her servant, verse 45.
Now if you make the argument, this was just the custom at that time!
The Torah counters:
5 Because that Abraham — obeyed my voice, –and kept my charge, -my commandments, –my statutes, –and my “laws”
Abraham obeyed God and not the customs of that day and Abraham and his wife Sarai followed Torah Law in all that they did.
As this paper is getting long, one more example from the many available will be included.
Esau and Jacob fully understood the Torah Law granting the first born the Birthright.
Deuteronomy 21: 15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, [both] the beloved and the hated; and [if] the firstborn son be hers that was hated:
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit [that] which he hath, [that] he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, [which is indeed] the firstborn:
17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated [for] the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he [is] the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn [is] his.
Genesis 25: 29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he [was] faint:
30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red [pottage]; for I [am] faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
31 And Jacob said, — Sell me this day thy birthright.
32 And Esau said, Behold, I [am] at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised [his] birthright.
Moses came from the seed of Jacob through Jacob’s son Levi, but before Jacob was even married the Torah instruction of the right of the first born had been taught to Jacob by his father Isaac who no doubt was taught it by his father Abraham.
Genesis 18: 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep ‘the way of the LORD”,
And that perfect WAY of our LORD “They” demand be abolished so “They” can be “free at last”.
Christianity demands their “Freedom from that horrid burden of that cursed Law”. They want it permanently nailed to the “cross” of Jesus Christ —- but that is not all what was nailed to the stake of Jesus Christ and they refuse to understand otherwise!
And to you “preachers” that preach the Law was nailed to the stake:
Have you not read the words of our Savior Jesus Christ?
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, —and shall teach men so,— he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The entirety of this paper is clearly teaching all must Do the Law?
Very few that read to the end of this paper will be convinced as at the time of the end God has allowed Satan to deceive the whole earth – and the many have believed Satan.
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Feel free to comment but Please do not again tell me I must “repent” of obeying my Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
oh, come on? where’s the fun then?
Some may require further proof Abraham, his son and grandson and later even the 12 Tribes of Israel that came from Jacob were never “Jews” further confirming the Torah is NOT Jewish :
Genesis 14: 13 And there came one that had escaped, —and told Abram “”the Hebrew;”"—- for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these [were] confederate with Abram.
Exodus 1: 15 And the king of Egypt spake to the — “Hebrew midwives”‘, of which the name of the one [was] Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
Exodus 2: 6 And when she had opened [it], she saw the child: and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him, and said, This [is one] of the “Hebrews”‘ children.
7 Then said his sister to Pharaoh’s daughter, Shall I go and call to thee a nurse of the “Hebrew women”, that she may nurse the child for thee?
Exodus 9: 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, — Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews,— Let my people go, that they may serve me.
Even the LORD GOD did not call the 12 tribes Jews.
And later:
Jonas 1: 9 And he said unto them, —I [am] an Hebrew;— and I fear the LORD, the God of heaven, which hath made the sea and the dry [land].
The Tribe of Judah and Benjamin are the Jews i.e. the House of Judah and according to Paul the Jews were given charge of the Oracles of God – if not would we even have the Torah and the Tanakh today?
Paul stated he was of the tribe of Benjamin.
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Again all are welcome to comment, point out any inconsistencies, bring forth scriptures stating otherwise, address the logic —-what ever — but do not bother to attack me — I care not at all for your ‘opinions”, I seek Truth and fact not what “you’ think.
What a person thinks of me or what I write affect me for about one half of a split second.
I neglected to add honest questions are also welcomed and will be answered respectfully
pls stop shouting at us with the capslock left on.
to answer your question: “IF ” — there was absolutely proof The Torah and the 10 Commandments existed long before they were given to Moses on the mountain -would that FACT effect your personal “core” beliefs ?
“NO”
Truth is truth…Humanity’s sense of right and wrong testifies to God’s existence. The Apostle Paul wrote:
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things contained in the law, these although not having the law are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them (Romans 2:14,15).
jknbt
It appears even caps highlighting important key words are of no avail for some folks,
How you twist Romans 2: 14 -15 in to inferring the Torah no longer of any importance is amazing.
jknbt — do you disagree the Torah is Holy to God?
Do you disagree Moses put it in the Ark next to the 10 Commandments written by the finger of Jesus Christ?
Do you disagree that Jesus taught from the Torah?
do you disagree Jesus taught His disciples to obey the Torah including the 10 Commandments of which the 4th Commandment is the Holy Sabbath created on the 7th day of creation week?
You must because you have stated Christ taught one way and now expects those that follow Him to live another, another way Jesus Christ never taught nor lived.. that is utter confusion and it is a lie.
jknbt can you quote Jesus Christ as stating follow Paul and not ME because what I teach is going to die with me?
How you can just ignore all of the scriptures used in this paper attest to the fact you are deceived.
I don’t have time to debate. You are too rude and inconsiderate anyway with your obnoxious capslock and fat fonts.
Of course you don’t have time, dear boy, now run along and do some colouring in until you can man up to your false doctrine.
Because let’s face it, jknbt, in another thread you opened with this…
“I feel morally obligated to warn these people who have been deceived…sorry that it upsets you, but no guilt feelings or apologies…”
/religion/2018/01/how-can-young-adults-change-the-world-share-the-gospel-focus-founder-says-2538633.html#comment_255047
… which rather flies in the face of your being pressed for time.
jknbt face the fact you do not know the Word of God in depth thus you can not counter the scriptures or the logic.
All you can do is tell me I am rude and obnoxious and back away and I take that as a complement.
And you are a teacher of scripture??? I am just an old man sitting at home in front of a computer writing about the Word of God which I dearly love and which is in my mind all day long.
“the Word of God which I dearly love and which is in my mind all day long.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205:16-18&version=KJV
jknbt I do not write in caps but I do “bold” important sections that I do not want skimmed over and I write in 14 pt because it is much easier for me to read. I can not write in 11 or 12 which is what you want as it is too difficult for me to read.
Sorry but that is what it is and what it will be.
Well put, Truthseeker, and establishing the argument as beyond “Mosaic” law is a master stroke given it invokes the immutability precept.
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Is-Unchanging
mayhem
no matter how the Truth is presented to those that have been blinded by Satan they still can not see nor hear nor read nor perceive, That fact has been proven over an over to me and not just here on BIN.
When Genesis 26: 5 is quoted proving Abraham lived by the Torah long before Moses and Abraham is a friend of God and the beginning of the faithful and God unconditionally promised Abraham his seed would be in the billions and rule the earth it is as if their eyes just glaze over and their minds spin and then they quote an unrelated scripture.
The carnal human mind and nature hates the Way of God and will not abide it for two seconds. they demand it be nailed away.
But thank God that is soon going to change — by force, by unimaginable power forcing obedience.
Their bullheaded insistence on not addressing the contradictions their doctrine leaves behind is what gets me fired up. I mean it’s one thing to be ignorant but quite another to be willfully so.
Mayhem
11 And for this cause God shall send them — strong delusion, — that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
As you say”willfully so” then God sends them “strong delusion” and they believe the most unbelievable foolish lies possible.
And God is not speaking of the few, it is the majority, the 40,000 flavors of confusion.
Jknbt
“”Truth is truth…Humanity’s sense of right and wrong testifies to God’s existence.”"
Jknbt why do you always quote Paul and never Jesus Christ?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Yes some have a few morals but the trend of humanity is always down hill in the direction of those before the flood.
The time of the end is punishment for humanity sinking back to the time before the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah.
And God judged these folks by the Torah, why jknbt if the Torah was used back them why will it not be used to condemn the world again to death?
God judges by a double standard??
Jknbt by what law, what standard are you being judged or if you think the judgment is later how will God judge you then. By what measure will God look at you and say you made it or you don’t?
If you say “the Law of Love” then I demand to know exactly how that law works and exactly how I am to observe it.
The Torah contains the only written rules by which men are judged why else would Jesus Christ our Savior our judge our high priest state in Matthew 19 but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
According to you after His death none have to keep the commandments to attain eternal life — you make Christ a liar
There are so many errors in your presentation, it’s really sad. You are not rightly dividing the Word of God nor do you understand where the word Hebrew comes from and why it is used for the same group of people called Jews.
I applaud your attempt but it’s such a mishmash of misinformation, it’s no wonder people, including Christians, are so confused about who Jesus is and why he came. Most churches don’t preach the truth. Many pastors don’t know the truth.
I suggest you check out a video by Pastor Robert Breaker called “where the races come from”. He’ll show you where the word Hebrew came from and why it’s the same group of people as the Jews.
Your belief that we must follow the ten commandments would be nice, if WE COULD DO IT! We can’t and that’s why Jesus came and died for us and the age of grace was instituted. With that being said, it does not mean we have license to sin! Paul refers to the 10 commandments as “the ministration of death written in tablets of stone.” Why? Because failure to follow the law PERFECTLY meant death and eternal suffering. You have to hit the bullseye every minute of every day for your entire life. There’s no leeway.
Rom_2:12 For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
I know which teaching I want to follow! I can’t keep the 10 commandments no matter how hard I try! I’m thankful for the the grace of God. Save yourself some stress and do more research. Learn and accept the real truth. Works get you nothing but reward in heaven. And that’s only if you’re saved by faith.
You’d have done better if you had actually refuted Truthseeker’s arguments using scripture, Cinders777, instead of making out like your opinion trumps the word of God.
Or, perhaps, you could counter the philosophical argument of Jesus teaching from the very thing He supposedly came to abolish. I mean on what planet would that make sense?
cinders777
Abram was a Hebrew; was he the first Hebrew or did he come from an existing people called Hebrews?
By: Jeff A. Benner
Abraham is the first person called a Hebrew (Genesis 14:13) in the Biblical text. What does the name Hebrew mean and where does it come from? Abraham’s G,G,G,G,G Grandfather was Ever (or Eber) “And Arpakshad bore Shalach who bore Ever” (Genesis 10:24). The Hebrew spelling of the word Hebrew is עברי and the Hebrew spelling of Ever is עבר. When the letter י is placed after a name it means “one belonging to the family of …” and in this case a Hebrew is one who belongs to the family of Eber.
By definition, a Hebrew is one who is descended from Ever and this would include Abraham as well as his brothers Nahor and Haran. While the lineage’s of Nahor and Haran seem to disappear, probably absorbed into other cultural groups, only Abraham and his descendents remain Hebrews to this day.
The root עבר means to “cross over” or “pass through”. As names play a very significant role of the ancient peoples of the Near East, this name and its meaning is indicative of Abraham and his descendents. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were nomads who by definition are ones who travel or pass through many lands on their nomadic journey. In Genesis 12:6 we read (From the KJV) “And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.” The phrase “passed through” is the Hebrew verb עבר (the same word as the noun/name Eber).
________________________________________________________________________ Copyright © 2004
Jeff A. Benner
Ancient Hebrew Research Center
“Please feel free to use, copy or distribute any material within the “Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine” for non-profit educational purposes only.”
Cinder all Jews are Hebrews but not all Hebrews are Jews.
Are you not aware God divided the 12 tribes into the House of Israel and the house of Judah, Ju-dah is jewish, the House of Israel headed up by Ephraim is not.
Cinders you have a tiny bit of knowledge but it did not come from the Word it all came from false ministers.
And you are right you all by your self can never obey the Commandments or the Torah but can you tell me why Jesus Christ taught His disciples they are to follow the Torah?
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Those that sit in Moses seat rule by the Torah as did Moses, just as the paper above proved.
Sorry your arguments are not sound and they do not match what is taught in the Word of God.
cinders if this pastor breaker holds services on sunday, keeps easter and xmas, eats pork and teaches not to even attempt to try to live as did Jesus Christ by the Torah — I would not give him one tenth of a second of my time.
He is called the “least in the kingdom of heaven” so states the high priest I follow.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Oh my. I hope you are saved by grace. If not, you are in for a horrible surprise when you step off into eternity.
Again I welcome honest comments or questions but if you expect me to give weight to your opinion that is based upon some minister or just what is in your mind — then Mayhem’s comment below is for you.
Mayhem
You’d have done better if you had actually refuted Truthseeker’s arguments using scripture, Cinders777, instead of making out like your opinion trumps the word of God.
So far no one comes back with a statement of Jesus Christ to counter but the few that offer their opinions all turn to Paul who is hard to understand and easy to twist.
To all;
This coming Sabbath a paper will be posted demonstrating Paul, the Apostle to the gentiles, was teaching Torah Law to the converted Roman gentile followers of Jesus Christ.
Thus here is yet another opportunity for those that hate the Holy Law of God to prove the satanic lie —by scripture and logic and not by their opinions, that “Jesus Christ had to come to earth to free His followers from that horrid law His Father put the Chosen People “Under”.”
None will do so –as the satanic lie above has not one shred of truth to it and can never be proven by scripture.
I encourage those that hate God’s Law to run to their preacher their minister – what ever – and see if they will come to this forum and with their “deep knowledge and understanding” and prove the Holy Law of Almighty God is a burden, is a curse and must be cast away.
If those that would assist you in this attempt keep Sunday, Easter, Xmas, believe in a rapture to heaven and the Chosen People are all Jews then you have picked the wrong folks to assist you — as they do not know the TRUTH.