EARTH'S HIDDEN PAST AND FUTURE - MIKE CLINTON
Sunday, September 8, 2013 16:26
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EARTH’S HIDDEN PAST AND FUTURE
The Bible’s primary focus is the story of redemption. The history of redemption generally covers the history from Adam to the new heavens and earth in the book of Revelation. This has led the casual reader of the Bible to assume that this present age is the only age there has ever been until now; that there has been no other life before this. Many also assume that all future life will be confined to what is created in this present redemption age. Does the Bible give hints of a past and a future age of created life? Let’s take a look.
A PAST AGE
I wrote an article about the first two verses in Genesis showing that the original creation of the universe occurred at some distant point of time in antiquety.Verse one of Genesis describes the original creation. After the original creation something happened to the earth that caused it to become a waste. Verse two begins the history of restoring the ruined earth. If you are not familiar with “The Gap Theory” it would help to read the article in connection with this study. It can be found here:
No one knows how much time passed between these two verses. In the second verse of Genesis the history of the age of redemption begins. The human race was created about 6,000 years ago, give or take a few hundred years for gaps in chronologies. Because the earth is old does not mean the human race is old. We were created, we did not evolve.
Some Bible students teach that the earth is only a few thousand years old. They admit that the universe appears old, that light from distant stars appears to have been traveling for millions of years, but they say that God made the earth to “look old”.They even try to say that dinosaurs (who lived in the forgotten age) were on the Ark. Some even say that Satan did not sin until after he tempted Adam and Eve. They admit the existence of machined artifacts, (Ooparts) that appear to be made by a highly developed race from a very ancient time. Here is a link where they admit the existence of these artifacts but try to fit them into their young earth model:
Possible Human Artifact Found in Coal http://www.icr.org/article/7279/
Many great men of God taught that there was some kind of pre-Adamic race: Kenneth Wuest, E. H. Bullinger, G. H. Pember, Donald Barnhouse, Harry Ironside, Arthur Custance, et al.
Many casual readers think that 2 Peter 3: 5&6 refers to the flood, but, when studied carefully an insight into the existence of an ancient age is revealed.
” For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:”
Here is what Greek scholar Kenneth Wuest has to say about these verses:
“The key to understanding these verses is the word “world”. It is kosmos, which speaks of a system where order prevails. The word refers to the original perfect system of the material universe of Genesis 1:1 which was brought into being by the fiat of God. He spoke the universe into existence. This is a commentary as to the condition of the first perfect earth, the surface of which was made up of land masses surrounded by water.This earth “being overflowed with water, perished. This refers to the cataclysm of Genesis 1:2 where we read, “and the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. “It was the judgment upon the fall of the angel Lucifer and the subsequent apostasy of the pre-Adamic race… The ancient Greeks thought the primeval condition of the earth was one of chaos. The theory of evolution starts with a chaos. The New Testament writers describe the original condition of the universe as one of perfection (kosmos) not a chaos (Greek for a rude, unformed mass)…”
The existence of some kind of advanced system in an age before this is further strengthened by Solomon’s statement in Ecclesiastes 1: 9-11 NASB:
That which has been is that which will be,
And that which has been done is that which will be done.
So there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which one might say,
“See this, it is new”?
Already it has existed for ages Which were before us.
There is no remembrance of earlier things;
So, it appears from scripture that there was a past forgotten age.
THE HIDDEN MYSTERIES OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TO BE CREATED IN THE FUTURE
In the book of Ephesians, Paul has a lot to say about the purpose of the church in the coming ages.
Ephesians 3:21 is of particular interest to our study:
”to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.” YLT
The Greek word translated “generations” is genea. The definition of genea is “the whole multitude of men living at the same time”. W. E. Vine
When we graduated we were a part of a class that attended school together. We are the “class of” whatever year that was. In the same way people who live on the earth at a particular period in history make a generation in this sense of the word. My generation saw the nation of Israel established, the assassination of Kennedy, the moon landing etc. and that will always define us.
In the ages to come, the entire group of people who witnessed the redemption story will tell the generations created in the future about it.
Robert Cameron, one of the early Plymouth Brethren, wrote a great book defining the ages laid out in the Bible. He had this to say about this subject:
“Unto the ages of the ages, may refer to the continuation of the Creative Ages after the Redemption Ages have run their full course and reached their goal…All the generations of the ages, suggests the hope of vast reproductions of the race, when some application of redemption, not now known, has made the recurrence of sin an impossibility.These “generations” might be the process determined by “the King of the Ages,” for filling the universe, during the unending series of Creative Ages…There will be generations of beings during these unfathomable ages of what order, who can tell?”
We find the same thought brought out in Psalm 102:18 ” This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.”
Generation (dowr) yet to be created (bara). The Hebrew word dowr means the same thing as genea. The LXX has genea.
The Cross is the central focus of all eternity. Throughout the coming ages the Church will have the privilege of telling the wonderful story of the Savior to all the coming generations.
Ephesians 2: 6&7 NLT For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
Mike Clinton, Sept. 8, 2013, Hiawassee, ga.
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“This has led the casual reader of the Bible to assume that this present age is the only age there has ever been until now; that there has been no other life before this.”
So the upshot of that would be that God is fallible… God created the heavens and Earth, cocked it up and started again?????
Something that is all knowing and infallible would not cock it up, because it would know the outcome of everything before doing anything. You can’t have it both ways, is it all knowing and infallible, or isn’t it?
You’ve never even HEARD of the concept of Dancing The Maze, have you?
And did the priests and priestesses from your beloved academic community hand you the answers to all of the tests as you ascended through the ranks of scholastic initiation? Of course they did not. What would be the point? The Academy is a proving ground and a test site. And the mentors can and do sniff out the juiciest candidates for the path to ‘enlightenment’ that way, from behind the scenes. This is something you should know well. Why is it, then, that the Most High is forbidden from creating a proving ground of His own, and periodically wiping clean the slate, turning the leaf and beginning a new chapter? Of course He is not forbidden from doing exactly that.
You don’t discredit the Most High, Pix. You only discredit your own creative imagination. And your integrity. You only seek to impose such limitations when it’s convenient to your argument.
WTF are you talking about?
“Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
It’s good to see you’re back with Biblically-based articles Mike.
From the article:
“They even try to say that dinosaurs (who lived in the forgotten age) were on the Ark.”
I don’t trust the dating calculations of the evolutionists. Case in point, they actually believe that soft tissue from a dinosaur bone they dug up is 68 million years old. I kid you not:
“An adolescent female Tyrannosaurus rex died 68 million years ago, but its bones still contain intact soft tissue, including the oldest preserved proteins ever found, scientists say.”
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur.html
If you want to know what supposed 68 million year old soft tissue looks like, how it is flexible and pliable and returns to its original shape when stretched, you can see it at the 9:10 mark of this video from 60 minutes:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5658449n&tag=contentMain;contentBody
Isn’t it ironic that evolutionists make fun of the beliefs of Bible believers and yet here is science making the ludicrous claim that 68 million year old soft tissue is flexible and resilient and stretchy? And that is not the only example. They actually claim some soft tissue they found is 500 million years old! You read that right, A HALF BILLION YEARS OLD!!!
One question I have is when an evolutionist finds a dinosaur bone with soft tissue that is 68 million years old, do they straight away put it into a zip-lock plastic bag in order to prevent spoilage?
Another more important question is this: why wouldn’t the dating calculations be questioned when someone says soft tissue from a T. Rex bone is 68 million years old? Here is why: because a dinosaur bone that is not millions of years old would contradict the millions of years old paradigm of the evolutionary model and evolutionists won’t let that happen to their religion. They’d rather look like fools claiming soft tissue is millions of years old rather than give up their ridiculous theories. So don’t look for science to contradict such an absurd claim.
From the quote from Robert Cameron:
“All the generations of the ages, suggests the hope of vast reproductions of the race, when some application of redemption, not now known, has made the recurrence of sin an impossibility.”
I don’t see that—where the recurrence of sin is an impossibility. There will be mortals in the age to come and some will be considered sinners who are cursed (see Isaiah 65:20). And Ezekiel speaks of perpetual ordinances—one of which is every morning a perfect one year old lamb is to be sacrificed. This is in the age to come after Judgment Day and believers in Jesus will have inherited the earth and the kingdom of God. They of course will have eternal life, shining like the stars forever, or as it says in Zechariah 12:8, “the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them”. But as I said, the new earth will be populated by mortals. I believe the daily sacrifice of the one year old lamb will be a daily reminder to the house of David of the sacrifice of Jesus, for we will be singing the praises of His salvation daily (see Psalm 96:2). And I do not think it is a coincidence that the 3 inner gates and the Holy Place and Most Holy of Holies in Ezekiel’s temple forms a cross. The cross will be, as you said, the “central focus of all eternity”.
Thanks am123. I have just been really busy working in my shop and on my house.
So, do you think that dinosaurs were on the Ark? I agree that the dating methods are all messed up.
Your second comment is a little hard to follow. A return to animal sacrifices? I don’t know about that.
Ezekiel’s Temple is a hard nut to crack. I think that the key is found in Eze. 43: 10&11
Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern. And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
I think it was the ideal temple that could have been realized had they been ashamed of all they had done.
Animal sacrifices were forever put away by Christ’s work on the Cross. Heb. 10: 5-10
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Regarding dinosaurs on the Ark, I believe that is definite possibility. They of course could have been babies. And I believe that the behemoth in chapter 40 of Job definitely is a dinosaur.
Regarding animal sacrifices, Ezekiel’s temple is in place after the creation of the new heaven and earth (see Ezekiel 47:12 and Revelation 22:2). And animal sacrifices will be going on there in perpetuity:
13 Thou shalt daily prepare a burnt offering unto the Lord of a lamb of the first year without blemish: thou shalt prepare it every morning.
14 And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a meat offering continually by a perpetual ordinance unto the Lord.
15 Thus shall they prepare the lamb, and the meat offering, and the oil, every morning for a continual burnt offering.
—Ezekiel 46: 13-15
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
“And I saw no temple therein”…THEIRIN, that is, in the New Jerusalem.
Ezekiel’s temple is north of the New Jerusalem—a northern suburb if you will. Surrounding the square city of Jerusalem will be farm land reserved for the workers of the city, who will come from all the tribes of Israel (see Ezekiel 48:17-19). This area is a rectangular area (with the square New Jerusalem within it…see Ezekiel 45:6, 48:15-19, 30-35). Adjacent to this area to the north of it will be a rectangular area for the Levites (see Ezekiel 45:5, 48:21-22), who will serve in the temple. Adjacent to this area to the north of it will be the rectangular area reserved for the priests who will minister in the temple (see Ezekiel 45:4, 48:10-12). The temple will be in the center of this rectangular area belonging to the priests (see Ezekiel 45:2,4 ; 48:10).
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
—Revelation 21:23-25
The above verses dovetail with this from Zechariah:
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
—Zechariah 14:4-9
And later on in chapter 14 of Zechariah, it speaks of the pots used for boiling sacrifices:
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein…
—Zechariah 14:20-21
Mike,
A close reading of the Apostle Paul seems to indicate that the need for animal sacrifice for SIN has been fulfilled by Messiah. That leaves a lot:
Ascending Offerings
Freewill Offerings
Trespass Offerings
Purity Offerings
The Daily (morning and evening) offerings…
etc, etc.
I can find nothing in Scripture which indicates that ALL animal sacrifice has been eliminated. Rather the opposite is the case in light of the evidence, some of which am123 has posted above.
am123, how do you know that Ezekiel’s Temple is north of the New Jerusalem? Do you have scripture for that?
What do you think Leviathan is?
I explained in my post above the layout of the land where the temple is in the center of the land set aside for the priests. It is all in chapters 45 and 48 of Ezekiel.
I believe Leviathan in chapter 41 of Job is a dragon.
Mr Beef, do you have scripture saying that the various offerings you mentioned are still in effect or is your argument one of silence?
What evidence has am123 given besides the assumption that Ezekiel’s temple is a literal temple?
Mike, what evidence do you have that Ezekiel’s temple IS NOT literal?
BTW, I also pointed out in Zechariah about sacrifices.
Also, Isaiah 66:22 speaks of the New Moon and Sabbaths. And Ezekiel speaks of the Feast of Passover of Feast of Tabernacles. Anyone can read the Scriptures for themselves and see it clearly is talking about animal sacrifices.
I am really enjoying this conversation. I have been looking back over the verses given and found where some of the confusion comes from but we will have to take this up tomorrow. It’s really good talking to both of you again. Talk to you tomorrow.
am123, I guess dragons were on the Ark too.
Mike,
There’s was no need to include sea creatures on the Ark. Leviathan was at home in the sea:
“He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.”
—Job 41:31
“In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.”
—Isaiah 27:1
“Mr Beef, do you have scripture saying that the various offerings you mentioned are still in effect or is your argument one of silence?”
It’s not an argument from silence, considering the multiple statutes and ordinances from the Old Testament all indicating the duration of animal sacrifice. Therefore, in the absence of anything plainly stating that all sacrifice has been ended, the orders from the OT should stand as originally written. Paul’s explanation was careful to include only SIN sacrifice. At no time did he say (or otherwise indicate) that ALL animal sacrifice was to be abolished forever. The concept just isn’t in Scripture — at least, I haven’t managed to find it. And I try to look with a keen eye. Now the Torah wasn’t abolished by Messiah, we can be certain, because the Apostles themselves continued to keep the feasts after His departure. So the argument that Messiah removed the requirement for all animal sacrifice does not hold water.
[When Paul was sent to the Temple in Acts, he was instructed by the elders to 'be at charges' for the men who went with him. Wherefore those funds, if not to purchase animals for sacrifice on the altar? Was there an entrance fee at the gate? Was there a toll-road along the way?]
@ Beef I don’t think Paul’s action was sanctioned by God. I think he made a terrible mistake. It is just an account of how he was arrested. It goes against what is clearly recorded in Hebrews where it very clearly says that the sacrifices were abolished by the offering of Christ.
Hebrews 10: 8&9
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
… He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
“Taketh away” is “anaireo”: to take away, abolish, to do away with or abrogate customs or ordinances. The word literally means “to kill”.
W. E. Vine says:
“to take away” in the sense of removing the legal appointment of sacrifices, to bring in the will of God in the sacrificial offering of the death of Christ;
You know that the book of Acts is a transitional book. New wine had to be put into new wine-skins.
am123 Whoever this creature Leviathan is, he must really be a trouble maker since one of the first things the Lord does when he returns is kill it. You don’t suppose Leviathan may just be a figure for something else do you?
“You don’t suppose Leviathan may just be a figure for something else do you?”
No, I don’t. You don’t give detailed attributes to a figure of speech such as:
15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
—Job 41:15-20
Likewise, in Ezekiel, the LORD gives very specific rules and regulations concerning animal sacrifices. Plus, He gives very specific divisions concerning how the land of Israel is to be divided among the tribes. You don’t think He was speaking idly or wistfully concerning these things do you? No, He meant every single detail.
am123 Why do you think Leviathan is so much trouble that one of the first things the Lord does is kill him?
Do you have any verses in the New Testament about these detailed sacrifices?
How do you explain Hebrews 10: 8&9 which says they were abolished by Christ’s sacrifice.
Do you think that people will again have to be circumcised?
Eze. 44:19 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Mike wrote:
“W. E. Vine says:
“to take away” in the sense of removing the legal appointment of sacrifices, to bring in the will of God in the sacrificial offering of the death of Christ…”
This view is understandable, even logical, given the context of some of the verses. But once this door is left open, the cattle are free to come and go as they please, and we lose firm footing for comprehension of this subject. Here is what I mean:
Did the Most High institute animal sacrifice, or did He not?
If He did, did He include in His instructions provisions for duration of the statutes?
Are the statutes and their provisions contained in the Old Testament to be believed, or is there evidence that they have been altered or tampered with?
Is the excoriation from the Most High in the opening verses of Isaiah at all related to the verses from Hebrews you have highlighted (Hebrews 10:8-9)?
Because here is the question:
When it is written “…Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and for sin thou wouldest not…”
…does this mean that the Most High has had enough of these offerings? Is that really what’s being communicated to us?
Could it not be, rather, as it is in Isaiah, that YHWH is utterly disgusted by the manner in which the sacrifices are being offered? That ALL OF THE EMPHASIS of those sacrificing was placed in and on the sacrifice itself, and none of it on the intended MEANING BEHIND the sacrifice.
Did YHWH, who does not change, change His Mind?
Beef, one of my favorite books is Hebrews. Have you studied it? In a paragraph tell me what the purpose of Book of Hebrews is.
The purpose of the Book of Hebrews is to explain, in great detail, the character and fabric of the Messiah, and the reason for His coming.
The purpose of the Book of Hebrews is to warn certain Jews, who were thinking of going back into Judaism because they had been ostracized and persecuted for becoming Christians, not to reject Christ and so crucify him afresh by their actions. The author then shows that Judaism was only a shadow but the reality was Christ. His priesthood, message, sacrifice, and office was far superior to Moses. If they apostatized they could never return. If they had experienced the power of Christ’s message, but then fall back into the shadow of Jewish ceremonies, it would be impossible for them to repent.
“If they had experienced the power of Christ’s message, but then fall back into the shadow of Jewish ceremonies, it would be impossible for them to repent.”
I understand that you believe the Torah of YHWH is no longer in effect. And if, in this case, your stance is the correct stance, then I can see how you have arrived at your conclusion. Moreover, yours would be the only sound conclusion, in such an event.
BUT IF, on the other hand, we find that the Torah of YHWH is still in full force, then we are compelled to look for a meaning to Paul’s words (I presume Paul to have been author of the letter to the Hebrews) which might not be the meaning immediately apparent according to the words he used.
If the Torah of YHWH stands, then it is a warning from Paul to the Jews to make a very important distinction: The Torah is not the author of their Salvation. YHWH is, through the favor of Grace and the Sacrifice of Messiah. AND THAT IF, the subjects of the letter to the Hebrews were to make the grave error of looking to the statutes and ordinances of the Torah AS IF THEY WERE the very means to salvation; if the Hebrews made the error of thinking that their very good or perfect adherence to the letter of the Law was what was called for by YHWH, and was that very thing which would act as the vehicle of their salvation…
…then those Jews would have turned their back on the Blood Sacrifice of Messiah, denied its utility and its effectiveness, and sought elsewhere to obtain the saving Grace of the Most High, thus rejecting the gift of Messiah’s Blood.
THIS WOULD NOT MEAN that the statutes and ordinances of the Torah were to be set aside and forgotten, but merely that they were to be understood appropriately, and that they should not and could not be counted on to achieve the same result as the Blood Sacrifice of Messiah Yehoshua.
To rely on the Torah as the vehicle of salvation is to make an idol of the letter of the Law. This is the message I am convinced the Apostle Paul intended for the subjects of the letter to the Hebrews.
Beef, Paul covers the Torah in Romans and Galatians.
Let me ask you this too: do you think that people will again have to be circumcised?
Eze. 44:19 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
Mike wrote:
“Let me ask you this too: do you think that people will again have to be circumcised?
Eze. 44:19 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.”
Mike thinks he has caught me in a fix. Maybe he has. Watch:
Circumcision of the flesh is mandated. It is as pertinent today and as much of an obligation of the Children of Israel as ever it was. Are we or are we not the Children of Israel? Are we or are we not the Children of Abraham?
Do you think Paul ever spoke against the COVENANT of Circumcision? Of course he did not. Rather, Paul himself circumcised. Did he do this for show; to put on airs? Did he do it to placate the Jews? Do you know your brother Paul?
BEHOLD, I PAUL SAY UNTO YOU, THAT IF YOU BE CIRCUMCISED, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING!!!
Is that where you had intended to go? And to whom was Paul addressing at the time those words were written? And in what context? Paul was addressing gentiles who were in a hurry to become circumcised at the BECK and BEHEST of religious, letter-of-the-law, Jews. Jews in whom circumcision was not profitable because what they did, they did for the wrong reasons. To paraphrase: “If you be circumcised now, like this, for these reasons; then you do so in error, and it will be of no benefit to you. It will be a vain thing. Your circumcision will be accounted un-circumcision.”
According to the narrative of Acts chapter 15, the gentiles were to be brought into the Assembly if, and only if, they would agree to the four provisions declared by James. But was this to be the beginning and the end of the rules for the gentiles? Of course not, “For Moses of old time hath in every city them which preach him.” That is to say, the other details could be attended to by the gentiles later. The Torah is too big and too much to become responsible for all of a sudden. The Jews had been born and raised in Torah. Torah was a brand new thing to the incoming gentiles. It was too much for them to learn immediately.
The Covenant of Circumcision stands. As do all of the other statutes and ordinances of the Torah. As does each and every jot and tittle which has in no wise passed away, considering the world in which you and I are still standing.
If you come at this from the other angle, Mike, it is all-encompassing and leaves very little room for doubt. Messiah IS the Torah. We are to be as HE IS.
Beef, you said ” Paul was addressing gentiles who were in a hurry to become circumcised at the BECK and BEHEST of religious, letter-of-the-law, Jews. Jews in whom circumcision was not profitable because what they did, they did for the wrong reasons. ”
Then you paraphrased: “If you be circumcised now, like this, for these reasons; then you do so in error, and it will be of no benefit to you. It will be a vain thing. Your circumcision will be accounted un-circumcision.”
I just read through Galatians and could not find the slightest hint of how you came up with this.
Where does it say or hint that ” gentiles who were in a hurry to become circumcised “?
Brothers and sisters, open your Bibles to chapter one of the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Galatians. (Now, that the Galatians were gentiles, we don’t need to wrangle over, to be certain. But who was bothering them?)
Galatians 1:6
“I marvel that you are so soon removed from Him that called you into the Grace of Messiah, unto another Gospel: Which is NOT ANOTHER but there be some that trouble you, and would PERVERT the Gospel of Messiah.”
2:13
“And the OTHER JEWS dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas was also carried away with the dissimulation. But when I saw that THEY (the other Jews) walked not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel, I said unto Peter before them all…”
Keeping in mind the subject of Paul’s discourse, which does not change throughout the chapter, let’s move it along to the beginning of the next chapter.
3:1
“O FOOLISH Galatian, WHO (who indeed) hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Yehoshua Messiah hath been evidently set forth, impaled among you?
“This ONLY would I learn of you: Received ye the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by the hearing of faith?…”
And here comes the MONEY SHOT…
In chapter 5 verse 12, Paul identifies ‘THEM who trouble the Galatians’:
“I would that THEY were completely cut off which trouble you.”
That was a nasty way of saying: I WISH THOSE WHO COMPELL YOU TO CIRCUMCISION WOULD FINISH ON THEMSELVES THE JOB THAT THEY STARTED!!! I wish they would CUT THE REST OF IT OFF!!!
Ouch.
It is those members of the circumcision whose circumcision is counted for un-circumcision who are the ones troubling the Galatians and oppressing them with the LETTER OF THE LAW. The religious Jews were harassing the newly converted Galatians with the LETTER. This is the context in which Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians must be understood. It’s all there.
“Letter” does not appear in Galatians a single time.
Circumcision appears fourteen times.
The reference to the gentiles being in a hurry to be circumcised???
In what context do YOU suppose that the Letter was written to the Galatians?
And whom is it that YOU say was “troubling” these gentiles to be circumcised?
That the Galatians were being “troubled” to become circumcised is evident from verse 5:12.
Who was “biting” and “devouring” (5:15) the Galatians?
Maybe you should have said that the Jews were troubling the Gentiles to be circumcised instead of the Gentiles were in a hurry to be circumcised. Oh well, this post has run its course. Maybe I will write about Behemoth and Leviathan next. I have been looking into it; pretty interesting stuff. They are mentioned in Enoch you know. Later, my friends Beef and am123.
Very well Mike,
But sleep on the critical nature of this matter. Bear in mind everything which rests on this one minor-seeming detail. The ‘whom’ of the ‘troublers’ from Galatians is the key to right or wrong when it comes to the matter of the Law.
It’s an awfully crucial point on which to draw so close, only to pull away again and forget about it.
Be that as it may…
Bring on Leviathan and Behemoth.
Mike,
Does the New Covenant negate and void the Book of Ezekiel? Or Isaiah? Or any of the Old Testament prophets? Of course not. Yet, that is what you seem to be implying.
Because Ezekiel talks of a future temple with rules and regulations for animal sacrifices, most, if not all, of Christendom steers clear of Ezekiel from chapter 40 onward. Either Christians are at a total loss to explain it or they try and force a square peg into a round hole (as you seem to be doing) by citing the sacrifice of Jesus to write it all off as an allegory or something else. But that is nothing more than a cop out because the Old Testament prophets spoke about the same new age that the Revelation of Jesus Christ speaks of. Instead of throwing out the pieces of the puzzle we think don’t fit, we must consider all the pieces of the puzzle and not throw any away, for they must—and they do—fit together.
My take on the law of Moses is this: the law of Moses was made obsolete when Jesus was nailed to the cross and died for the sins of mankind:
“In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”
—Hebrews 8:13
However, notice Paul said the old covenant is waxing old and is READY to vanish. It has not vanished YET. It is still in play while this present heaven and earth still remain:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
—Matthew 5:17-18
Jesus said He came not to destroy the law OR the prophets. He then says the law will remain intact until heaven and earth pass away. He said nothing about the prophets passing away, for they remain intact for this present age and the age to come (the new heavens and new earth).
In Hebrews, Paul compared the old and new covenants and pointed out the superiority of the new covenant by contrasting how the earthly temple is a model or shadow of the temple in heaven. The Jewish priests ministered in the earthly temple (and I believe they will do so again in the Millennial Reign) but our High Priest entered into the temple in heaven. It is the holy of holies in the temple in heaven that we have gained entrance into by the precious blood of Jesus. Jesus said those that overcome He will make pillars in the temple of God (see Revelation 3:12). So believers in Yeshua belong in the temple in heaven. And after the 1,000 year Millennial Reign, heaven is coming down to earth, God is coming to live with mankind (see Ezekiel 43:7, 48:35, Revelation 21:3).
When the Alpha and Omega creates the new heaven and earth (see Revelation 21:5), that is when the obsolete law of Moses will be done away with permanently and the new eternal order of things will apply as spoken of by the Book of Revelation, the Book of Ezekiel, the Book of Isaiah, and other books in the Bible. However, for those who belong to the High Priest Jesus, who is in the order of Melchizedek (see Hebrews 5:6), we can partake now of the eternal things, of the age to come. We can enter into the Most Holy of Holies in heaven via the blood of the Jesus. We are free now from the Law of Moses as we can now partake of the age to come by faith. The precious blood of Jesus perfects us and no more offering for sin is needed for those who inherit salvation (see Hebrews 10:14, 18).
So the law of Moses will NOT be done away with UNTIL this present heaven and earth are done away with. But when the new heavens and new earth are created, that unique time when there will be no night, that is when the temple in heaven comes down to earth (it is a northern suburb as I explained in a previous post above) and the rules and regulations of Ezekiel’s temple will come into play, in the age to come.
The old testament prophets spoke of the age to come spoken of in Revelation. For example:
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
—Zechariah 14:6-7
19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
—Isaiah 60:19-20
“And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.”
—Revelation 22:5
“Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.”
—Isaiah 60:11
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
—Revelation 21:23-26
“And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.”
—Ezekiel 47:12
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
—Revelation 22:1-2
Half of the RIVER OF WATER OF LIFE will flow out from the northern suburb of the NEW JERUSALEM from the south side of the Temple (see Ezekiel 47:1) into the Dead Sea (see Ezekiel 47:8, Zechariah 14:8). The other half of the RIVER OF THE WATER OF LIFE will flow from the THRONE of the LORD and the LAMB down the middle of the great street of the NEW JERUSALEM (see REV 22:1), the Holy City, into the Mediterranean Sea (see Zechariah 14:8).
And the name of Jerusalem from that time onward forever more will be THE LORD IS THERE (see the very last verse of Ezekiel)!
So then, since Ezekiel’s temple comes into play in the age to come and believers in Yeshua no longer need a sacrifice for sin, how then can there be animal sacrifices in Ezekiel’s temple you may ask. The key to it all I believe, and the reason why Christians can’t make heads or tails of Ezekiel from chapter 40 on, is this: what we are talking about in the age to come is immortals and mortals. Believers in Yeshua will receive the fullness of their eternal salvation and rewards at the Second Coming. The sons of God will inherit the feast of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:
“And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”
—Matthew 8:11
That is when we will be joined together with the cloud of witnesses watching us and waiting for the Second Coming. We will be with Abraham, David, Joshua, Isaiah, etc. and be drinking wine with Jesus (see Mark 14:25).
The point is this will be the time of fulfillment of our salvation. It is when “the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them” (Zechariah 12:8). We will have immortal, incorruptible bodies. We will readily be distinguished from the mortals upon the earth at that time. And yes, the new earth will indeed be populated by mortals:
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
—Isaiah 65:17-20
3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
—Zechariah 8:3-5
And so, the earth will be populated with mortals at that time and it on their account that the rules and regulations spoken of by Ezekiel will apply. Animal sacrifices will be going on there in perpetuity:
13 Thou shalt daily prepare a burnt offering unto the Lord of a lamb of the first year without blemish: thou shalt prepare it every morning.
14 And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a meat offering continually by a perpetual ordinance unto the Lord.
15 Thus shall they prepare the lamb, and the meat offering, and the oil, every morning for a continual burnt offering.
—Ezekiel 46: 13-15
We know that a burnt offering is an aroma pleasing to the LORD (see Exodus 29:41) and the LORD changes not. So does it not makes that the LORD has/will institute animal sacrifices in perpetuity? Indeed! And besides, it says so in the Word!
CORRECTION to my last couple sentences above:
So does it not make SENSE that the LORD has/will institute animal sacrifices in perpetuity? Indeed! And besides, it says so in the Word!
am123 We are friends, please don’t accuse me of intellectual insincerity. I spend all my time trying to put the pieces together.
Which takes priority, the New Testament or the Old? I am under the impression, based on scripture, that the Old Testament must be viewed through the lens of the New Testament,
On the Mt. of Transfiguration, when Peter compared Jesus with Moses and Elijah, God rebuked him by saying: ” This is my beloved Son: hear him”.
Hebrews 1: 1&2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Mike,
Accusing you of intellectual insincerity was not my intent. I apologize for my perhaps poorly worded comment. What I was trying to get across was I disagreed with this sentiment by you:
“I think it was the ideal temple that could have been realized had they been ashamed of all they had done.
Animal sacrifices were forever put away by Christ’s work on the Cross. Heb. 10: 5-10”
I see that as an indication that you don’t believe that Ezekiel’s temple will come into play in the future and you vindicate that belief by citing the sacrifice of Jesus. Wrongly or rightly, I see that as an attempt to void Ezekiel from chapter 40 onward. And I said that is what you SEEM to be implying, as in, that is my perception of what you are saying, leaving the door open for you to explain yourself more. That is all that was intended—nothing more, nothing less. So again, I apologize and I am sorry this discussion of the Scriptures has been sidetracked by that.
Having said that, I agree that the NT takes priority over the OT, as I have indicated in my previous post. NT believers have access to the Most Holy of Holies in the heavenly temple, of which the earthly temple of the OT is only a model of. So there’s no argument from me on the superiority of the NT. But that has no bearing whatsoever on what the Scriptures say concerning what will take place in the age to come.
am123 We are both sincere I believe. Corresponding with you and Beef is not child’s play,
I will address this fully in my next article, Lord willing. I thought about doing one about Leviathan and Behemoth but that one will take a little more soaking.
Look for my next article, I am excited about it. “New Insight about Ezekiel’s Temple” or something like that.
Mike,
Yes, you’re preaching to the choir about corresponding with BEEF not being child’s play.
I mean that in a good way BEEF!
When we get pushed or prodding into explaining our beliefs, while it may be uncomfortable at times, we end up clarifying and reinforcing in our own minds what it is we actually believe.
Regarding your next article about Ezekiel’s temple, Lord willing, I will be there to comment, which I’m sure you’re excited about.
And I think I’m going to post an article myself consisting of my lengthy comment above more or less.
Anyway, regarding Leviathan, yes Leviathan is symbolic of Satan, but Leviathan was a physical creature that Job described.
“Yes, you’re preaching to the choir about corresponding with BEEF not being child’s play…”
At least you guys get to go home at the end of the day.
I have to argue with myself 24/7.
Beef, I do nothing but consider these things. I will finish the Bible on CD again tomorrow for the umpteenth time and start over again. I want to know what it says, not what someone says it says. I take it very seriously.
The image you have used of the carved stone balls is an interesting OOPA. They were found in Scotland in a Pictish burial mound, and are claimed to represent various pollens from the area. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing. What do you think? Here’s some images of pollen for you to compare.
http://girlwithoutaplan.wordpress.com/2010/06/18/my-kryptonite/
“There is no remembrance of earlier things;” That happened when early Christians burned the libraries of Alexandria to the ground. Humanities only knowledge base at the time. All dictatorships destroy the competition. Early Christianity had a similar effect to Pal Pot in Cambodia, they destroyed all knowledge to return civilisation to day 1 because it went against their belief the world is only 6’000 years old.
You guys are funny. Always fighting each other over personal views. Always using completely different parts of the book of books to make your singular case. Completely misrepresenting the creation every time. You serve your selves. Only your selves….. You steal empowerment from the creation. None give to you, you serve yourselves from the creations flow……..
You do not make sense most of the time……….
For anyone reading the confusion in the above posts, I have this to say…….
There is a story that has been manipulated by the controlling power of the world. It is an idea that has never manifested. An idea that has lasted since before this existence.
As a true believer you want to create what you remember or explain why you do not.
Changing it’s definition is the act of cutting your self of from the source and creating your own reality.
The book of books holds the key. The understanding. That even an idea can be destroyed. Every way that it can be. Creation is real. It is there for you still. yet you must still cast aside all you have learned and think you understand. Everything you have ever read or heard in song was authorized to control your dream and desires.
there is a dream of an idea of something that we try to define so that we can know if others in this life are of the way. Yet in defining we take power and limit the scope of the idea of the dream.
There is a way to encompass all that we know of the dream idea. Yet you must throw aside all you have restrained your self with. To do that you must understand that you know nothing but what the masters have told you.
Call it crazy but I think you can be more.. I believe in you..
Quote what you want of the book of books in efforts to prove your points of redemption and salvation of all that do not have your current understandings. You still have not convinced me that you are the most enlightened of the world.
When Bible believers are ‘impeding’ the ‘progress’ of the ‘ascension’ of the world, will you be in line with our termination?
The only contentious commentary here is between Pix the Satan-loving ‘atheist’, and actual Bible believers. There is no contention here among the believers. Nor is there confusion of the kind you have in mind.
Are we the most enlightened in the world? Did any of us ever attach ourselves to such a claim? You speak the language of the other side. You are fluent in the lexicon of the enemy of Truth, and think you have a firm grasp of anything and everything.
If you believe in any of us, you believe amiss. We will deceive you swiftly if you place your faith, any of it, in us. We won’t even mean to. But we will. Your faith and your belief is not for us, and it belongs to ONE alone. Seek Him. Learn His Word.
That was pretty beef.
I’m glad you approve of the appearance.
Are you at all concerned with the meaning?
Will you consider evidence of the things unseen?
I will reply to your questions. Bible believers is an interesting description to use. I believe in the bible. Completely. I do not think you do.I have actually checked on the authors.
I think you believe in an Institution of the church that covets their version of the bible and neglects the worship of the creation. I may be mistaken or you may be confused. Two things I hope do not impede your “progress” or “ascension”.
Are you against those things?
I do not think Pix is a satan lover. I think he recognizes a problem in his understanding and will no longer accept what he has known as control of his soul. I hope he continues getting educated with that stuff called knowledge. In doing so he will find the many stories that were meshed into one and then force fed to the world.
I did read you or hereIam claim to be the reincarnated light. I believe when I commented on it the other one of you jumped and attacked my character. I do not know you so my character should be the last thing you comment on. If you believe the words you quote then my character again would be the last thing on your mind.
I think that is not the only time you “filled in the holes” of your understanding. Do not take that wrong. I believe that finding out that we are wrong is the first step to understanding what is right.
I like how you try to always write “bible talk”. It is not as commanding to us as it is to you, I am sure. It is still worth your effort to do.
You talk about the “other side”. Is that the opposition of the bible faith? An opposition to faith in creation? Or are your god’s of the human understanding competing for dominance and control of the people of earth again?
A single all powerful “god” does not have enemies. He is all powerful and all things serve to the one’s desire. So their is no opponent. Are you speaking about muslim or jew?
Your book of books is about jew subjugation mixed with spiritual enlightenment and three or more major stories. If you have not studied this then do not reply to that. You will look ignorant. If you want understanding to what I am writing about then feel free to ask. I will try to get it right in my reply.
Now about what your final paragraph says……………….
You concede defeat before you begin. Enlightenment that is trapped has no completion. What is the purpose of becoming enlightened if you do even believe in your purpose or stance?
You truly believe you are born into sin and for that you need to repent. You are defeated before you begin. Your energies are taken.
truthuncovered,
Thank you for taking the time to respond in such detail. Of the Bible, you wrote:
“I have actually checked on the authors.”
I would love to know what it is you mean by this. Please spare no detail, if you would not mind.
“I think you believe in an Institution of the church that covets their version of the bible and neglects the worship of the creation.”
Firstly, I wonder if you will take me at my word when I tell you that I am neither a Christian, neither do I attend any Church, nor am I affiliated with any institution which calls itself ‘church.’ Secondly, if, as you state, you are a believer in the Bible, and not only a believer but one who understands it far better than I do, then I wonder if you would be so kind as to point out from where exactly in the Bible you took away the idea that any of us are to worship the creation. I look forward to your answer to this point, considering that the entire narrative of the Bible not only outlaws worship of the creation, but goes to great lengths to inform us of the RESULT of worship of the creation. I am curious whether and if you and I are reading and referring to the same Book.
“I may be mistaken or you may be confused. Two things I hope do not impede your “progress” or “ascension” Are you against those things?”
If by ‘progress’ and ‘ascension’ one means to imply the existence of spiritual ‘EVOLUTION’ as opposed to the Biblically described ‘PROCESS OF BECOMING’, then yes, I am against them both. And if there does not at first appear to be any distinction between ‘evolution’ and ‘becoming’, I can assure you that the difference is as vast can be imagined. One rout leads to the light which is no light at all, but is the blackness of darkness; the other leads to the Light of the World.
“I do not think Pix is a satan lover. I think he recognizes a problem in his understanding and will no longer accept what he has known as control of his soul.”
I think Pix is a very mislead and misleading personage. It isn’t often that I encounter folks who are as inherently dishonest as I have found Pix to be. However, I bear her no ill will, and I mean that most sincerely.
“I did read you or hereIam claim to be the reincarnated light. I believe when I commented on it the other one of you jumped and attacked my character. I do not know you so my character should be the last thing you comment on. If you believe the words you quote then my character again would be the last thing on your mind.”
I will confess to bewilderment on this latest quote from you. I deny reincarnation. Reincarnation is a lie. I myself am nothing, and am of no account. As to any of my ‘feelings’ which pertain to your character: If I comment on your character, please be assured that I do distinguish between essence and character. That we are all fallen beings is as evident in Scripture as it is in nature. And though I might comment on character, I don’t despise or disdain ANY of my brothers and sisters. I have hatred for no man. But recall that anger and hatred are very different animals. I get angry occasionally and express my anger in various ways that I know I should not. I do this because I am fallen, imperfect, and weak. But I am in a process of becoming. I am not in a process of evolution.
“I like how you try to always write “bible talk”. It is not as commanding to us as it is to you, I am sure. It is still worth your effort to do.”
I try to imitate my Master. Very often, folks find this grates on them and is cause for annoyance. I also try hard to communicate coherently, effectively and CLEARLY. And by so doing, I tend to leave a mark on those with whom I interact. As I clearly have done in your case.
“You talk about the “other side”. Is that the opposition of the bible faith? An opposition to faith in creation? Or are your god’s of the human understanding competing for dominance and control of the people of earth again?”
Here is some of that clarity for you on display now: My ELOHIM is YHWH. My Master is Messiah Yehoshua of Nazareth, Born Son of the Most High, the Light of the World who came to shed His Blood as a covering sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Faith in the Creation is precisely what I am against. To worship the creation is to partake of the sin of IDOLATRY, and it is to violate both the First and the Second Commandments. My Elohim and my Master are my Dominators; more so today than yesterday, and more tomorrow than today. The Creator dominates His Creation. The Creator is the Sovereign; not the creation.
Tell me something truthuncovered, who is your master and what is his name? And please be as clear and as concise as I have been in my answer to you for the same question.
“A single all powerful “god” does not have enemies. He is all powerful and all things serve to the one’s desire. So (there) is no opponent.”
That sounded to me like you just denied the existence of the Adversary (notice the capital ‘A’). To deny the existence of the Adversary is to deny an essential portion of the Scriptures. Please tell me, who is it that spoke to Eve in the Garden of Eden? Who is it that tempted Messiah in the wilderness for 40 days? Please allow me to introduce him to you. He is a man of ‘wealth’ and ‘taste.’ Hope you guess his name.
“Are you speaking about muslim or jew?”
Muslims and Jews are not my enemy. Religion is religion; it is all deception. Most seekers after the Way of Truth are not evil men and women, but they are wretchedly deceived. The author of the deceiving ideology is my enemy.
“Your book of books is about jew subjugation mixed with spiritual enlightenment and three or more major stories. If you have not studied this then do not reply to that. You will look ignorant.”
My ‘book of books’? Interesting. You happen to find yourself on a comment board with men who know the Scriptures as well as any you will meet, and better than most. I do dare to count myself among them. But whether I do so amiss is not something you are likely to be able to ascertain in any sense of the authentic. The Jews were subjected. And they were ransomed by their Elohim. Spiritual enlightenment is the currency of Prince of Darkness. And I will ask you again to tell me the name of your master. Don’t be coy – you know you want to. Just spit it out for all to see. Or are you vexed and perplexed because you find yourself among ignorant cattle who can’t or won’t understand that Lucifer is actually the LIGHT BEARER and the bringer of Freedom? Am I ignorant, or can I see you most clearly for the entity you are? Which is it?
“You truly believe you are born into sin and for that you need to repent. You are defeated before you begin. Your energies are taken.”
Your message is the antithesis to the Message of the written Word. Your message is an invitation to become a follower of the false light. You are of the Deceiver and you are counted among the deceived. In one breath you explain that you believe what is written in the Bible, and in the very next breath you make yourself into a liar.
The Shed Blood of Messiah Yehoshua is the ONLY thing that can save you. There is no ‘ascending’ and there is no ‘enlightenment’ and there is no ‘path to spiritual evolution.’ These things are all inventions of the Father of Lies, and are birthed out of his creative intelligence. They are all lies. The Truth of all things can be had by you, unless you are the seed of the Serpent himself. Are you of that seed?
You eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
I eat from the Tree of Life.
You and I will never be one. One of us will renounce his way and will turn from his deception, or he will be destroyed. And if that someone is me, then I am ready to die for the Name of my Master.
Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him.
Your funny beef
According to the bible you are not good enough to die for anything. So your finale , though pretty to read is in reality……lost in meaning. According to the book…
I know who wrote the bible that we read. The governments of present and past have collectively restricted and contradicted all that creation’s teaches. Every empowering word is taken for their own.
I do also understand where in our history these events took place. In the real world their was a battle for power over the lands and it’s deeds of ownership.
I also have researched the the truth about the one you call your master. Have you.
I believe I have acknowledged a creation and you say that it is against the bible’s teachings. I agree………..I serve no one because none have asked for service out side of the controlling powers that lead this world.
Your explanation is for god speak is self empowering to say the least, friend.
here you say “Here is some of that clarity for you on display now: My ELOHIM is YHWH. My Master is Messiah Yehoshua of Nazareth, Born Son of the Most High, the Light of the World who came to shed His Blood as a covering sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Faith in the Creation is precisely what I am against. To worship the creation is to partake of the sin of IDOLATRY, and it is to violate both the First and the Second Commandments. My Elohim and my Master are my Dominators; more so today than yesterday, and more tomorrow than today. The Creator dominates His Creation. The Creator is the Sovereign; not the creation. ”
Your words are trying to convince me that you somehow are the god of judgment. Interesting. I choose to call the creation by what it was and you call it anything that is evil in your understanding………….Interesting………You serve yourself and are full of your self…Your god talk is because you think you define the understanding of god for all the world to see, as you put it. You do not…….You even stated that you will only mislead then you mislead when you are full of your self………
I am not you….Nor do I worship myself…….or believe that I can define something that I have never had direct teaching from……I have a memory……I am sorry that your memory is so confused. I hope you find peace soon.
God has no enemy. He is all powerful….If you believe that he has someone that would pose a threat to his kingdom and power then you are not enlightened by your version of truth. You have never even looked at that directly have you? I think the whole thing is the creation of entertainment from the controlling powers….It is kinda clear
Did you know King james sent his authorized bible a few years after sending the founding pilgrims. A new book for a new land.
You wrote “Muslims and Jews are not my enemy. Religion is religion; it is all deception.”
Just a few paragraphs above you wrote
“Here is some of that clarity for you on display now: My ELOHIM is YHWH. My Master is Messiah Yehoshua of Nazareth, Born Son of the Most High, the Light of the World who came to shed His Blood as a covering sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Faith in the Creation is precisely what I am against”
That YHWH came from the bible and that religion of Christianity. The belief that he is the son of the most high IS Christianity a religion you already expressed a different view on…….
You wrote “Faith in creation is precisely what I am against”………………Creation is the idea that we were created rather than evolved. Something else that you commented on in a reverse manner.
Beef it is hard to converse with you because you have taken on everything and everyone……….
You wrote “Spiritual enlightenment is the currency of Prince of Darkness”
Without spiritual enlightenment we remain sheep in darkness and hate. Hence term “enlightenment”
You really want to make out like everyone worships something you call evil or “satan”….
I would not even begin to understand why you would write “You and I will never be one. One of us will renounce his way and will turn from his deception, or he will be destroyed. And if that someone is me, then I am ready to die for the Name of my Master.
Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him.
I never even began to think that we would be “one” or what ever that g@y comment is.
You have rewritten every belief that is expressed in the bible and then contradicted yourself. many people have told you this. I have taken the time to show you….I hope you are still having a good day… I hope you are not so confused in the future………..
I ask now that you reread the opening sentences………
“According to the bible you are not good enough to die for anything. So your finale , though pretty to read is in reality……lost in meaning. According to the book…”
I’m actually becoming rather impatient with statements like this one. This is meaningless to everyone but you because you don’t bother putting forth the effort to explain your meaning, and you don’t point to anything from Scripture to support your meaningless claims. Without either, your words are vapid and empty. So in the absence of supporting verses, why don’t you be a little less cryptic about what you intend to say.
“I know who wrote the bible that we read. The governments of present and past have collectively restricted and contradicted all that creation’s teaches. Every empowering word is taken for their own.”
Were it not for the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, this empty charge of yours might sound a bit less empty. But the DSS themselves belie this statement of yours. More, the DSS have definitively and demonstratively proven your baseless claim to be the hollow shell that it is. Those of you who know very little about these things haven’t discovered the full meaning behind the Dead Sea find, and therefore you continuously peddle this tiresome nonsense. Try it on someone else. Or compare notes with the DSS and the Masoretic Text. Don’t waste your time taking anyone’s word for it – do it yourself. Again – effort.
“I also have researched the the truth about the one you call your master. Have you(?)”
Have you something to tell me about my Master? I am all ears. Say on.
“Your words are trying to convince me that you somehow are the god of judgment.”
This is becoming an exercise in pointlessness. I am not the one I serve. Nor do I claim to be. Nor have I ever claimed to be.
“You serve yourself and are full of your self.”
Pix… Is that you?
“God has no enemy.”
This is not true, no matter WHO you mean when you say ‘God.’ Even your god has an enemy. And the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth has many enemies. You are one of them because you have chosen to deny Him. You have chosen to do this.
”If you believe that he has someone that would pose a threat to his kingdom and power then you are not enlightened by your version of truth.”
The enemies of the Most High are never a threat to Him. He is Sovereign. His enemies are permitted to exist because He is merciful and because they, despite themselves, serve His purpose. His enemies exist only according to His will.
You then proceed to conflate and confuse the contents of the Scriptures with religion. Religion is the OPPOSITE of what you will find in Scripture. This truth escapes you because you think you know something when you know nothing. Humility to admit that you know NOTHING will enable you to see.
“Creation is the idea that we were created rather than evolved. Something else that you commented on in a reverse manner.”
Are you being intentionally obtuse? Do you expect me to believe that you think I have spoken against the ACT of creation? I do not believe. I spoke against worshipping the creation. Pay attention or go and do something else. My patience with you is at an end.
It has been a pleasure trying to explain things to you. You don’t have the courtesy to pay attention to the answers given to your questions, and yet you demand that special attention from me. You lack the clarity of thought to express yourself efficiently and you pretend to possess knowledge about things you know nothing about. My hope is that you are a young person who has plenty of time to study, to seek and to learn. Put forth the effort to keep learning. Admit that you might be wrong about matters which are too high for you. Read the Scriptures without thinking you know anything about them. Then you might have a chance. As you exist presently, you are in near total hopelessness. I would not wish your condition on anyone. Deny yourself. Start looking for Truth with a fresh eye. More than that, I don’t think you and I have much of anything else to say to each other.
Best of luck to you, and Godspeed.
Beef you have offered nothing but confusion. I have pointed that out since first recognizing you. You are scrambling to remain afoot. You have no ground because you offer nothing but yourself.
I do not think I am enlightened the way you do by rewriting what someone else wrote that has already been discussed……..I know you enjoy………..
I have discussed nothing with anyone so how can any “prove my point” as you say.
You have acknowledged none of your actions and steadily attack all those that offer their version of truth and reality…….
I have already spoken to you about your master and will offer nothing else on the matter…..Please pay attention
So many times people have told you about the confusion you express and still you stand by it like you “explained” something that was hidden…….Beef your full of yourself………..
Talking with you is like talking to a wall of ignorance…………Build a fire and dance around it if you must……..
I do see how you change your words as the days change…….often……………
Of course their is no enemy of god but your statements are exactly the opposite of words you wrote in your previous write……….
I took this time today and yesterday to show how you contradict yourself on every issue and stance you represent……..Everything………You serve no one but your self………Just as I stated in my first write to you………I stayed on topic and picked you apart………It was easy since you were never really taking a stand on anything but yourself………….
You could not be more wrong about anything that you have written to serve your desires………
God does not serve you no matter how you try to cover your true intention………….
This has been a lesson for everyone else beef……….I do not think you are capable of spiritual growth……..I clearly see how you try to label everyone that is not worshiping you as your adversary………….
good luck with that……………………………
Just so you know beef….I could care less about your paitence…..I will never subjugate to an inferior like you…….You serve youreself………….You lie with every breath……….You steal the glory of creation as your own. You are the fakest person I have ever read……You continued and for that I thank you ………today was to expose your stance……………That is accomplished………………..
Just to be clear……….With you that is very hard…………but to be clear…………….The bible is the scripture………The bible is the foundation for the religion of christianity………….
Maybe you should look up the meaning of every word you write before you write………you use words that do have your intended meaning………….That is not education to say the least……..
you wrote “pix is that you” ………….So many have told you that you are serving yourself and you have not recognized any of your actions……………………..No this is not pix………….I like him more now that you expressed he sees the real you
Pix I would like to acknowladge your first comment “So the upshot of that would be that God is fallible… God created the heavens and Earth, cocked it up and started again?????”
good eye. It is crazy where they put the subjugation in. This spot of the bible tell the human that god is foulable for sure. Yet we know that is not possible. Just like when Jesus went to the garden to pray that god changed his mind and apparently he did. How can that be?
These type question will lead you to understanding. Do not get stuck in the distractions of human emotion please.
You see the bible is truly a book of books. It is not only the small books pressed into one but rather Manipulated into one for control.
It is what they are trying to obscure that is worth the search.
Did you know that you can find the “middle kingdom time period” of egypt to match up with the bible time by crossing referrencing the extinction of the many god’s. There was a pharoh that saw both sides of his kingdom fighting. One worshiped RA and the other Aman. The creator god and the sun god. He told them that they were the same god and they did not need to fight. The birth of AMEN-RA. From this vantage point you will find some of the true names of the pharohs of egypt and relate them to the bible. It is he first written acknowladgment of a controlling power on manipulating the faiths in effort to control the masses…
When mosas was chased from egypt he changed the names of his people and ancestors “in an effort to protect innocent”….hahaha….It was what he said when he left. So none of the names in the bible are the same as those written on the pyramid walls….But some of them are the same……….
Why did Rome seek out and kill all the apostles of the son? All of them.
I can tell you if you want.
@mikeClinton,
Donald A MacKenzie wrote a book in 1915 called “Myths and Legends of Babylonia and Assyria”…the main gist of the book is that all folklore, legends, and myths can invariably be traced back to Babylon mythology, etc. Chapter 13, Astrology and Astronomy deals with among other things, Cosmic periods and babylonian systems of calculations… their math was based on multiple of 6 and 10…i posted an article to BIN explaining how the difference in mathematical systems from then and now might skew any calculations for determining the end times. starting on about page 310, the author explains the basics behind calculating the “days of G*D” as compared to the days of men using the babylonian math… I think this is noteworthy for anyone studying Eschatology… this is an attempt to spread this info despite being “moderated” into oblivion by BIN…Mike, i hope you find this rediscovery helpful and that you might share it with your readers and close circles so that it may help everyone to find a more clear understanding of things to come by relating to the past… i think someone like you or Dabhoo7 or other contributors here, that are allowed to post will find the book, but especially that chapter incredibly illuminating… you can read it for free at sacredtext.com
enjoy…