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A Date Chosen by God

Tuesday, July 22, 2014 7:11
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(Before It's News)

 

How can you tell a legitimate date-setter?

 

Many people claim to be experts on prophecy and claim to have come up with the date of the end of the world.  Some of the more famous claims in recent years include radio evangelist Harold Camping’s final date of October 21, 2011 (he had many other failed dates starting in 1994) and the many people claiming the world would end with the Mayan Long Count on December 21, 2012.  Obviously, the world has not suffered any great catastrophe on these dates.  Along with hundreds of other bad predictions, (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events for a long yet still incomplete list) these bold but bogus claims lead most people to assume that no one will ever be right.  How can we weed the good from the bad?  If there ever is a correct interpretation, how can we recognize it in advance?

 

Because a lot of people claim they have a special prophetic insight and perceive themselves like they’re:

 

When in reality they just seem kind of crazy:

 

 

The Bible comments on this but some of the advice is of little use.  Jesus warns us in both Matthew 24:4 and Mark 13:5 “See to it that no one misleads you” regarding signs of the end times.  Deuteronomy 18:21-22 tells us “You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’  When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken.”  This is not particularly helpful, as we would need to wait for the prophecy to fail before we judge it.

 

It would make sense to judge the message and the messenger based on their authority, credentials, methodology, and facts.  Harold Camping, for example, had nothing backing up his suggested date.  He offered no facts, no theory, no insightful interpretation of how he came to his conclusion.  His date was all over the internet, even on billboards – but did he pull that date out of thin air?  All he offered were several failed attempts to pick such dates in the past!

 

In contrast, we might hope that someone making a similar claim has an extensive education – perhaps a doctorate in a relevant field such as theology, or archeology, or astrophysics….  We might hope they had made a major discovery which provided the evidence on which they based their claim – did they just discover a “new” ancient book, or find the grail or the ark, or detect the approach of an incoming object from deep space?  Are they a high ranking whistleblower revealing something the government has secretly kept hidden?  Without discovering new information, or a new way of looking at old information, a person claiming a new end of the world date gives us little reason to be taken seriously.

 

I believe my own analysis combines two relatively new ways of looking at old information to reach dates for the fulfillment of end times prophecy.  The first key step is to view religion, mythology, and monuments through the lens of astronomy.  The Bible tells us to watch for astronomical signs in Genesis 1:14, and I assume the majority of ancient warnings are intended to put our focus on the position of the sun, moon, and planets.  We can assume that most heavenly battles and other heroic travel and activity is astronomical in nature.  This idea was first popularized in 1969 in the book: Hamlet’s Mill.

 

The second key in my process is to use astronomical software to determine when the skies match the descriptions of the characters (heavenly bodies) in the stories.  Using “forensic astronomy” on ancient clues detailing the night sky, we can determine future dates for rare astronomical events.  When the sky matches the description from prophecy – and the astronomical lineup is rare enough – I believe we can know the dates for many prophetic events in advance.

 

Sometimes these descriptions are veiled in allegory, as with Christ (the Sun) coming for His bride (the Earth) or with the Antichrist (Venus, the Morningstar, a.k.a. Lucifer) opposite (anti-) the sun… and sometimes it is more direct, as in Isaiah 13:10 telling us “the sun will be dark when it rises” (an eclipse at sunrise, as viewed from the Middle East.)  The ancient Maya did the same thing on a more obvious level in their mythology/religion.  The birth of the Hero Twins (Venus and Jupiter in a specific conjunction) precedes their battle to save First Father, One Hunapu (the winter solstice sun in conjunction with the galactic center.)

 

Most Christians believe such astronomical alignments have no significance to Christianity.  But I assure you that the same alignment which the Maya believed would enthrone their sun-god as King of the Earth is described in the Bible many times, including Psalm 19:4-5 when God’s stars “set a tabernacle for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber.”  I believe that when Jesus comes back to assume kingship over the Earth – when He returns for His bride – us – all the details of an ancient Jewish wedding ceremony will be acted out in the night sky in December 2019.

 

I believe that right now, in the Middle East, and even in America – end times prophecy is unfolding all around us.  I believe that astronomical clues, coupled with scripture, warn us to expect major events in 2016 and 2019.  Please consider reading End Times and 2019 for a thorough explanation.  If you appreciate what I have to say, feel free to post a nice book review on Amazon.

 

Of course, though I try not to come across like I’m wearing a tin foil hat – not everyone agrees with me.  So if you absolutely hate what I have to say, feel free to compare me to Satan, as this video does:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jhhA_l1g9GM#t=2

 

I can’t believe I’ve been compared to Satan for my interpretation of Bible prophecy in End Times and 2019

 

(and I can only imagine that my upcoming book on the Antichrist will make even more people angry.)

I just want people to think.  Do you have ears to hear, and eyes to see?  Be awake to what is happening around you.  America is being remade.  Israel is at war.  Russia is preparing for war.  China is preparing for war.  An Islamic Caliphate has been reestablished.  Everything is about to change.  A lot of people will make ridiculous claims.  Educate yourself and use your own judgment.

 

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Total 28 comments
  • FreebytheTruth

    No, you’re another Harold Camping. Nowhere are you told in the abiding doctrine of Christ 2 John 1:9-11 that you’re supposed to look for years to formulate a approximate date. Harold Camping tried to develop a calendar out of all his eisegesis. You’re doing the same, just with different eisegesis twisting of Scripture. Prophecy is given to live holy lives. And every one having this hope upon Him purifies himself even as that One is pure. 1 John 3:3

    Since you are not primarily concerned with how the abiding doctrine of Christ produces holiness, that is where you’re being lead astray with your own eisegesis. You like Harold Camping are pouring all your energy into looking for year dates, and if people follow after your delusions, you will be judged by Christ for leading people astray.

    • HumanBeing

      Well said.

  • JustAComment

    What a remarkable coincidence: he’s pitching books… for Jesus, of course…

    Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:15

    And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:14

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

    For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16

    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness [money grubbing] shall they [the con] with feigned words [lies, fables] make merchandise [i.e., by peddling lying books] of you [the mark, the sucker]: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 2 Peter 2:1-3

    No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Matthew 6:24

    If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 2 John 1:10-11

    He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD. Proverbs 17:15

    And her prophets have smeared whitewash for them, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, “Thus says the Lord GOD,” when the LORD has not spoken. Ezekiel 22:28

    And the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds.” Jeremiah 14:14

    I did not send the prophets, yet they ran; I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied. Jeremiah 23:21

    For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

    Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelation 22:14-15

  • mikesavage

    You wrote:
    “Many people claim to be experts on prophecy and claim to have come up with the date of the end of the world. Some of the more famous claims in recent years include radio evangelist Harold Camping’s final date of October 21, 2011 (he had many other failed dates starting in 1994) and the many people claiming the world would end with the Mayan Long Count on December 21, 2012. Obviously, the world has not suffered any great catastrophe on these dates. Along with hundreds of other bad predictions, (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events for a long yet still incomplete list) these bold but bogus claims lead most people to assume that no one will ever be right. How can we weed the good from the bad? If there ever is a correct interpretation, how can we recognize it in advance?”

    There is only one who knows the date of the final battle, not the end of the world. That is God Almighty. Even Jesus said he did not know the time and the day it will happen. It will continue, somewhat. The world refers to the people on it, the Earth refers to the planet. The end of the world will occur, as the inhabitants, or almost all of them, are to be destroyed for clinging to religions that are man made, for destroying physically and spiritually, the Earth. The scriptures do say to “get out of her” (Babylon the Great the world empire of false religion).

    You speak of “Christians”. The only Christians that exist are those that have NOTHING to do with religions, churches, their teachings, or their clergy. There’s about ten million alive today. The rest are falsely claiming to be Christians, but in reality, are not. They are part of “Christendom”. The false Christian religions made up by men since the death of Jesus. There’s thousands of them. Catholicism is the biggest group of them. They are also the most Satanic of the lot. To be a real Christian is to believe accurate translations of the scriptures and to be NO part of Christendom, or the world. No part of politics, religion, government, or anything that supports Satan’s system of the world. No part at all. Jesus said to live as alien residents in the world but to be no part of it.

    • Truthseeker

      the number is closer to 10,000 alive to day. The flock is tiny; 10 million??? –no

      Jude quotes Enoch saying the Lord comes with 10,000′s of His Saints, all the first fruits of God counting from Adam until Christ returns there may be a few hundred thousand and that will include the 144,000.

      In Matthew 25 Christ is stating half the body of Christ, the 10 virgins, lose their salvation and He locks them out.

      Many are called FEW ARE CHOSEN and the Chosen obey the WILL of God the Father and His WILL is Righteousness. Look up the Bible’s definition of Righteousness.

      • 0 Sum

        ” Look up the Bible’s definition of Righteousness.”

        Is it related to murdering Gazan’s in cold blood and then writing those people off as “sub-human”?

        Cuz I don’t see it in there anywhere Truthseeker.

        I am worried that some of the “Best” in the flock have lost their souls.. if they can’t see that “the State that calls itself Israel” is murdering children.

      • mikesavage

        Truthseeker;
        It is about 6000. You are not keeping in mind that the majority of the scriptures were address to, and written by the annointed. The disciples of Christ were the first of the annointed. The scriptures are for their use in teaching their followers. The great flock. They are the little flock.

      • Truthseeker

        zerosum

        If you were surrounded by 100′s of millions of morons that beat their wife’s, molest little boys, and marry 6 year old girls — morons that want you dead and your country is 6 million and your land is the size of a county here in the US — what would you do???

        They have sent 1500 rockets in the last few weeks into Israel, and do you realize no one in the Arab world wants the Palestinians they are considered scum, vermin.

        You have been brain washed by those that hate the Jews. Do not worry as the Jews will be murdered and taken into captivity and so will the US.

        By the way Righteousness is the HOLY LAW of God.

      • Truthseeker

        mikesavage

        I find the Plan of Salvation of God follows the planting and harvest seasons, I read the Saints of God are the early barley harvest, the first fruits of the first small harvest and the fall harvest is the large harvest. Christ is the first of the first fruits he is the wave sheaf offering.

        I understand the Plan of God is found in the 7 Holy Feast of God.
        Passover in the first step in God’s Plan of Salvation.

        I have never found or read of the great flock.

      • 0 Sum

        Mr Truthseeker,

        While it might not look like it at first glance I have a lot of respect for you so please allow me some latitude.

        A. You have called Palestinians vermin and scum on here at least a few times already while pawning the weight of those words onto the Arabs. Not good enough Sir. They are NOT all terrorists just like not all Jews are terrorists. Some are…. Many are GOD fearing GOOD family people.
        Many are children of GOD who live under conditions you and I could only imagine.

        B. I do not hate “the jews” at all. Far from it. I have been called a Jew on here more times than I can count for my frankness. Today is not such a day.. as many are calling me racist or anti-Semitic for standing up for what I believe in… for standing up against my brothers.

        I am disgusted to the core ( Is THIS what righteous fury feels like? ) with the current government running The State of Israel and the murders they are committing… in the same way I was disgusted with apartheid government running South Africa not so long ago.

        Thou shalt not kill
        Thou shalt not steal
        Thou shalt not bear false witness
        Thou shalt not covet

        I challenge you to SHOW ME ( and yourself for that matter ) that these powerful rocket attacks from within OCCUPIED territory have caused EVEN 1% the damage and death dished out by “The State”

        Over and over the same game is played. The 4th the 5th the minor fall the major lift… and it;s always the Palestinians and Gazans that suffer. They can’t seem to find the people shooting off the home-made rockets into fields… but they have no problem finding the hospitals and schools in OCCUPIED LANDS with their tanks. Just a little “protecting oneself”

        This whole thing is a Sham.. and I am not the one blind and brainwashed.

        If you can stand here and tell me the murder of children is God’s will and those doing the murdering should be supported them I suspect you are I are not on the same team at all and I’m losing respect for many of the good folks one here who say they are with God and know his Son.

        The MEEK shall inherit the earth.

        You asked what I would do? Certainly not murder women and children with tanks, phosphorus, gas, missiles and other weapons of mass destruction and them spin it all around to say the targets are using each other as “shields” since their rocks seem to be losing their potency.

        Just because a nation-state takes on the name ISRAEL doesn’t mean they are God’s people nor does it mean we should give them our unbridled support without using common sense.

        Look at their fruit Truthseeker.

        They are murdering children

      • HumanBeing

        Why is it that so many people only see one side of all this?

        Look at a map of the ME and see the size of Israel compared to all the hostile nations surrounding it. Then look at the number of missles, suicide bombers, death wishes, etc. they all hurl at Israel daily. Then notice how the enemies of Israel use people as shields for their missiles and train their little children to wear suicide bomb vests and pose with guns. And then learn history, and how the so-called Paliestinians were supposed to have been taken in by Jordan, but the Arab world wanted them as political footballs, in spite of having far more land to spare than does Israel.

        NONE of the people crying for the Palestinians would put up with the daily attacks for decades that have been made against Israel. Israel has a right to exist as a nation, just as you think the so-called Palestinians have a right to exist. But all the enemies of Israel deny both sides that right.

        No nation on earth has a right to point fingers at Israel without pointing also at themselves. And compare how Israel treats people to the way muslims treat their citizens. Look at how they raise children, or how they treat women. See if you can spot which country it is that allows women to live like human beings, and which country loves death more than life.

        Not going to hold out any hope that these FACTS will be admitted by people here, but they are true and verifiable by those who love truth more than they hate Jews.

      • 0 Sum

        HumanBeing.

        Quote: “Why is it that so many people only see one side of all this?”

        THE BLUEPRINT for what comes next.

        This is a divide and conquer campaign for the spirit and soul of all mankind. Not one other subject alive today is as polarizing… not “global warming” not “9/11″ not even “The holocaust”

        I think we are BOTH showing why HumanBeing. You are now playing the other side of the coin for us on the back of the very people I am standing up for. The meek and the weak.

        For example,

        Quote: “And then learn history, and how the so-called Paliestinians”

        Forgive me if I’m wrong but are you insinuating that there was no place called Palestine in History going back like forever? I hear that assertion from people who don’t know how where a Library is or just repeat what they hear on tv. It’s disrespectful to the Muslim, Jews and Christians who made that their home before it was “fixed by force”

        If that’s not what you meant then I’d be willing to hear what “so-called” means. I can think of much better ways to use “so-called”.

        Quote: “Look at a map of the ME and see the size of Israel”

        Getting bigger every year. Fancy that? In a generation our children won’t be arguing about the existence of a Palestinian homeland..

        they will be arguing about whether the Palestinians ever existed at all.

        http://www.salem-news.com/articles/may132011/israel-palestine-ef.php

        Quote: “No nation on earth has a right to point fingers at Israel without pointing also at themselves”

        I have to agree with you there. I don’t know anyone who isn’t living in a nation on the way to fascism, colonized by white skinned European people, raped of resources, and their original inhabitants marginalized and dehumanized before a deep cleansing. Not one.

        Honestly HumanBeing.

        Quote: “compare how Israel treats people”

        They murder them… hence why children raising children under occupation and constant threat of murder grow up to want to murder and shoot home-made rockets.

        “NONE of the people crying for the Palestinians would put up with the daily attacks for decades that have been made against Israel.”

        See.. you can’t see the Palestinians.. You don’t see them. You see only the suffering of Israel. You speak of them as something “less-than”… “so-called Human Beings” but not really. If you think I’m kidding re-read your post. Lot’s of fear of Arabs and Muslims but not a shred of feeling for “the other people in the story”

        Quote:

        “Not going to hold out any hope that these FACTS will be admitted by people here, but they are true and verifiable by those who love truth more than they hate Jews.”

        You offered little in the way of facts Mrs P and supported your ideas with opinion and down-right propaganda designed to marginalize the victims. Suggesting I hate the jews more than the truth is a cheap shot of epic proportion and you know it.

        This is an inconvenient fact:

        This State who you seem sure can do no wrong is murdering children and families in occupied land against international law and all common decency. This isn’t conjecture or mild opinion.. even mainstream news is showing it now.

        Beyond disproportional and totally shameful.

      • HumanBeing

        “re you insinuating that there was no place called Palestine in History going back like forever?”

        Are you claiming there is such a thing as a Palestinian race or ethnic group that isn’t really Jordanian? Find the history, the coinage, the ancient language, and the customs that are unique to Palestine from before the ancient Hebrews, and then I’d consider not using “so-called”. They push this story of a “Palestinian people” in all the media and academia, but it simply is made up. Your knowledge of the history of the area doesn’t go back far enough.

        “Getting bigger every year.”
        Compared to what, the area they were promised in the Balfour Declaration? What they gained after they were immediately attacked on all sides as soon as they got there? Or compared to their ancient homeland, which included Jordan? Here again, your history doesn’t go back far enough.

        “They murder them”
        And their enemies don’t? Suicide bombing isn’t murder? Lobbing hundreds of rockets at schools and other public places isn’t murder? Sawing off people’s heads with a field knife isn’t murder? You totally ignore what Israel’s enemies do every day, and have done as long as modern Israel has existed.

        “you can’t see the Palestinians”
        And you can’t see the Israelis. You ignore what is being done to them. You don’t see the daily atrocities and vows of annihilation committed against Israel. You blame Israel for everything and turn a blind eye to its enemies. You keep ignoring that the so-called Palestinians are Jordanian refugees, whose own people won’t help them. And your own “fear” of Israel is very obvious, but not as much as your hatred of them.

        “You offered little in the way of facts Mrs P”
        Whoever “Mrs P” is, there are NO facts to back up your fake history of the so-called Palestinian people with an alleged prior history to the land. Try reading actual history books instead of what you see on TV or are spoon-fed in college. Israel has archaeological evidence going back thousands of years. Don’t be a parrot; research for yourself with an open mind. And start caring about the people of Israel, who know that “there will be no peace until the Arabs love their children more than they hate us”.

        “A cheap shot of epic proportions” is what you fire constantly at Israel. You don’t care about them. You don’t care who the real aggressors are. You don’t care that this is a proxy war against Israel, by nations that use people as human shields and to score propaganda points with the whole world, who with one accord condemns Israel and ignores its enemies.

        And who is it that YOU think can do no wrong? Who is it that you think can do no right? What would you like the people of Israel to do, lay down and be wiped off the face of the earth, just as their enemies chant every day? Would you be happy then? As another Israeli statement says, “If the Arabs lay down their arms, there will be instant peace. If Israel lays down her arms, she would cease to exist”. Learn why Islam so hates the Jews, and you will begin to understand this conflict.

        Yes, your ignorance of what the Arabs do and your hatred of the Jews is “Beyond disproportional and totally shameful.”

      • mikesavage

        Truthseeker;
        Once again, studying an inaccurate translation will NOT render accurate knowledge. KJV, ADV, DR and most other translations are designed to mislead you, and to prevent you from any accurate knowledge about the scriptures, God, or his son Jesus. I am not surprised to hear that you’ve never heard of the great flock or the little flock. The little flock is the 144,000 annointed sons of God, beginning with the disciples of Christ. The only group to ever go to heaven. The great flock is the body of followers of the little flock, and their teachings. The scriptures were written by the annointed, and are for their use in teaching the rest of us. It’s addressed to the annointed, not the rest of us. Keeping that in mind helps to understand a lot of the scriptures. Not keeping that in mind leads to misleading information. Remember, Satan is misleading the entire inhabited Earth, and the only way around that is to follow the annointed who are blessed with Holy Spirit, to help them understand and teach the scriptures. It’s the only way to understand the Bible.

      • Truthseeker

        mikesavage

        I do not need secret or special human translations.

        My Father, just as HE did the 120 at the Feast of Pentecost, opened my mind.

        I learn from HIM.

        Your understanding comes from a faulty foundation. Nothing I can write will help you.
        I have pulled all my articles from BIN and these comments are some of my last.

        The world is at the very edge of the times of the gentiles, very possibly this September/October
        America will be dropped to her knees, she will stand back up but will be very weak. Then come the fall of 2015 she will begin to fall never to rise again.

        Sound doctrine will not be tolerated and will soon be punished – so I am done here.

      • Damien

        @Zerosum

        Pretty pointless trying to rationalize with Whoreseeker. He openly longs for what’s happening to Palestinian kids to happen to his ‘fellow non-Jews’.

        Including himself.

        Bog standard hippy like Dupre basically.

      • Truthseeker

        zero sum

        Since you say you respect me, I will respect you.

        what follows will show where I am coming from in what I have written in previous comments

        My daughter has a famous Iranian friend, this women’s father was held in prison for 10 plus years in Iran and then murdered last year. This women follows closely what is occurring in the middle east and is interviewed often by the news media. She has told us how those of the middle east view the Palestinians as scum, her words. No one will take then into their countries. They are considered the very bottom of the bucket of the middle east. Are some of these people different, not violent, I am sure.

        The tiny piece of land the nation of Israel is on is part of the Promised Land given to Abraham by Jesus Christ. and it is the Land to which Christ, at His return, will bring the Remanent of the whole House of Israel [all 12 tribes] and give it to them for ever.

        But because of the sins of the Jews in the nation of Israel, yes they are sinning against God, God will very soon remove them again from this land and place them in captivity.

        When God first sent the children of Israel into the promised Land, He instructed that every man, women and child that lived upon that land plus their animals be killed. 100%. God did not want HIS people to copy their evil ways.

        It has not changed, God will very soon wipe them off the land Himself, 90% will die. The nation of Turkey which is the House of Esau, the brother of Jacob, will have all the young boys and all men killed after Christ has set foot on the mount of Olives. Esau will cease to exist as a nation forever.

        It is understood by all top level folks that the Palestinians do not want peace they simply want the Jews dead. They are kept in squalor on purpose by their leaders and by the middle east. they have never been taught how to live in peace or how not to live in squalor.

        This situation will never be solved until Christ returns and it is going to burst into real flames very soon.

        This is Satan’s world and you can point a finger at the Jews of the nation of Israel if you like but this hatred goes back thousands of years and Satan is bring it to a final boil now.

        I will side with the Jews against any in the middle East, the Jews are not at all sinless but when compared with the others???? there is no comparison.

      • Damien

        “”Shackle ‘em all! Imprison them all! Kill ‘em all! Christians, Agnostics, Atheists, Jews, Muslims, Persians! And everyone else everywhere else until … whatever.”"

        – Whoreseeker, Dupre, Am123, most Melting Pothead Americans etc

      • 0 Sum

        HumanBeing

        Every excuse in the book to look down on and dehumanize these people.

        You might as well say that North American Indians have no identity nor deserve respect because “They did’t have coins with their name on it” and the name they use today ( which identifies the ancient land you can find named in any old history book that they were ejected from in this lifetime ) doesn’t count. Be honest about colonialism.. it will set you free.

        Quote:
        “Getting bigger every year.”
        “Compared to what, the area they were promised in the Balfour Declaration? ”

        Bigger compared to PALESTINE. Can you see Palestine being eaten away? Even a little? That’s what I’ve been talking about and you keep bringing up “enemies” in order to dissuade what is happening.
        Don’t look at a map in fear.. look at it with honest eyes. Is it changing? How so?

        Interesting jump though. I was talking about the State and it’s actions and you seem to be talking about Zionism and some strange back-door deal by Britain to give PALESTINE ( a name you say doesn’t exist ) to the Zionists:

        Balfour Declaration of 1917~
        His Majesty’s government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[1]

        Makes me wonder what these “Best Endeavours” entailed and why nobody kept this part of that promise:
        “nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”

        Quote:
        “They murder them”
        And their enemies don’t?
        ~ They sure do. It’s very disproportional though. Open your eyes and heart. I am talking about Gazan’s and Palestinians and you are all over the map about “enemies”.

        Quote:
        “You totally ignore what Israel’s enemies do every day, and have done as long as modern Israel has existed.” “your own “fear” of Israel is very obvious, but not as much as your hatred of them.”

        Why do you say these things? Because I stick up for the people the State of Israel is stepping on? Because I complain about war crimes perpetrated live by a government and massive civilian deaths?

        Seems like a leap to me.
        Seems like one of us FEARS groups of people more than the other.

        You just automatically go to “He doesn’t love Israel… IF he can criticize their actions.. that means he’s an anti-semite… hates more than wants the truth”

        Horse crap Human Being.

        Quote:
        “Palestinians are Jordanian refugees, whose own people won’t help them”

        More deflection to avoid seeing who is killing who. No responsibility for the ones pulling the trigger from inside their walled palaces.

        Quote:
        “Try reading actual history books”

        The OLD ones I have on my shelf have “Palestine” in them. The land was called Palestine.

        I’m willing to send you one of these nice hardcover history books since it seems the only literature you are reading these days is the comment fields on your Scofield Reference Bible. That was a cheap shot but I mean it at this point.

        Quote:
        “Don’t be a parrot”

        Everything you use to defend these actions is propaganda. I can’t even address it without becoming infuriated and saying unkind things.

        This kind of crap painting all Arabs ( HOW DARE YOU )

        Quote: “there will be no peace until the Arabs love their children more than they hate us”.

        That is “false witness” against vast groups of people you’ve never met and never will. I complain only about the actions of a State’s Government. Can you see the difference here?

        Quote:
        “You don’t care that this is a proxy war against Israel”

        Every friggen war is a proxy war. Let’s be Frank. Look at the casualties when daring to tell me who the victims are.

        Quote:
        “You don’t care who the real aggressors are. ”

        More crap. Open your eyes.

        Quote:
        Yes, your ignorance of what the Arabs do and your hatred of the Jews is “Beyond disproportional and totally shameful.”

        Show me one spot where I talked about “jews” in a derogatory way. I dare you.

        Oh… because I complain of The State of Israel’s grotesque actions? Got ya. I have no right.. Right? and then you make it about “the jews”

        I can show you a hundred spots where you talk about “arabs” with one dirty stroke

        Who’s heart is really hardened here HumanBeing?

      • HumanBeing

        “Every excuse in the book to look down on and dehumanize these people”

        You mean the Jews? Nobody’s been dehumanized longer and more viciously than the Jews.

        This is not to say that poor people get abused by various armies and governments and factions around the world, or that anyone’s suffering should be ignored. But I’m trying to get you to see both sides of this issue, and look at the whole history. Israel does bad things, but so do their enemies, and if the nations surrounding Israel would just stop sending missiles and bombers and hate, I can guarantee you that there would be a lot fewer people suffering.

        “Can you see Palestine being eaten away? ”

        Tell me again why JORDAN or any other Arab state shouldn’t be the ones to give up land, instead of Israel, which is less than 100 miles wide. Why are NONE of those large muslim nations offering to take in their own people? That’s a rhetorical question, one you need to answer for yourself.

        ” It’s very disproportional though. Open your eyes and heart. I am talking about Gazan’s and Palestinians and you are all over the map about “enemies”. ”

        People who vow with every breath to wipe your whole race off the map are not enemies??? I’m talking about the fighters, the people shooting missiles, not the human shields they use to protect their weapons.

        “Who’s heart is really hardened here HumanBeing?”

        YOU. You only see the sins of one side, never who starts anything, never who wishes to wipe out an entire nation/race, never who hates Israel more than you can imagine. I DO NOT CONDONE ANYONE CAUSING OPPRESSION, but YOU condone ANY ACTION against Israel because you think they deserve it. You use a DOUBLE STANDARD, caring NOTHING for all the children murdered by Arab bombs and missiles. You would not put up with such daily assaults on your own property, no matter how few or weak you deem the perpetrators.

        I cannot open your eyes; I can only tell you the facts. Here are some links, which you will undoubtedly write off as biased, just because they don’t parrot the same propaganda you’re used to. But if all the evidence supplied there won’t convince you of your own hard heart and blind eyes, then it’s pointless for me to try any longer.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjW_H1ydFas&list=PL8E1BA727A0E2DFC0&index=1

        http://thereligionofpeace.com/

      • 0 Sum

        HumanBeing.

        Quote:
        “YOU condone ANY ACTION against Israel because you think they deserve it. You use a DOUBLE STANDARD, caring NOTHING for all the children murdered by Arab bombs and missiles.”

        Care to back that up with evidence or just these random capitalized letters?

        Quote: “Arab state shouldn’t be the ones to give up land, instead of Israel”

        Your mentioned Balfour declaration promised “nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”

        Let’s try the other side of the coin. Why should the Palestinians… the folks living there.. give up more land to the Western Europeans?

        The various groups where all living together in non-segregation in Palestine at the time of the Declaration. Why segregate and take away? Why bring up Arabs in other nations? You think Britain or the USA take some MORE land by force from those Arabs to fix it? Maybe from Egypt?

        Quote:
        “You mean the Jews? Nobody’s been dehumanized longer and more viciously than the Jews.”

        No you are always meaning “the Jews” HumanBeing. Just because the Jews have suffered dehumanization doesn’t make it’s ok for you to do it to their “enemies”… and you are doing it to justify your position.

        Quote:
        “if all the evidence supplied there won’t convince you of your own hard heart and blind eyes, then it’s pointless for me to try any longer.”

        The “evidence” you’ve offered so far is conjecture, heresy and prejudice. All of no use to my mind, spirit or heart.

        Quote:
        “I’m trying to get you to see both sides of this issue, and look at the whole history. Israel does bad things, but so do their enemies.

        Then we are not so far apart really. I love all mankind and I hate oppression and violence.

        Make no mistake.. Oppression is happening and “not just to The Jews”.

        I know I’m a cheap shot artist and we both in our own ways are passionate because we care for the people involved. Its a mess.

        I’m willing to accept we are both stewing in propaganda and believe what we are saying.

        I will watch the links and stop spiralling for a while.

      • HumanBeing

        (I hate this commenting system; you have to scroll up a mile in a long thread to get to the nearest Reply button.)

        “Care to back that up with evidence or just these random capitalized letters?”
        I’m going by what you say here. The caps are for emphasis. I’ve presented as much evidence as you have.

        I asked you why Arab states shouldn’t be the ones to give up land, instead of Israel, and you came back with a red herring: “Why should the Palestinians… the folks living there.. give up more land to the Western Europeans?”
        Who is saying that these people have to give up land? How about their Arab brothers giving them a lot more land? Why should land be taken from tiny Israel instead?

        “No you are always meaning “the Jews” HumanBeing. Just because the Jews have suffered dehumanization doesn’t make it’s ok for you to do it to their “enemies”… and you are doing it to justify your position.”
        I’m trying to get you to look at the big picture. You keep trying to put the Gaza conflict in a historical vacuum. And I have NOT dehumanized anyone; it’s you dehumanizing the people of Israel (do you like that term better than “Jews”?) You’re burning a straw man and trying to keep attention off your refusal to look at the hate and attacks of Israel’s enemies.

        “The “evidence” you’ve offered so far is conjecture, heresy and prejudice. All of no use to my mind, spirit or heart.”
        I’ve offered as much evidence as you have.

        “Then we are not so far apart really. I love all mankind and I hate oppression and violence.”
        As do I. I also hate injustice, and lies, and one-sided propaganda. All I’m asking you to do is to research for yourself the long history of the people of that area, and to listen to both sides of the current conflict. That’s all I’m trying to do here.

        “Make no mistake.. Oppression is happening and “not just to The Jews”.”
        I never said otherwise.

        “I know I’m a cheap shot artist and we both in our own ways are passionate because we care for the people involved. Its a mess.”
        Yes, and this caring about justice is why I spoke up when I saw only one side being represented.

        “I’m willing to accept we are both stewing in propaganda and believe what we are saying.”
        Fair enough. :smile:

        “I will watch the links and stop spiralling for a while.”
        Thanks; that’s more than most people here are willing to do.

      • 0 Sum

        Quote:
        “Yes, and this caring about justice is why I spoke up when I saw only one side being represented.”

        Expect nothing less HumanBeing. You answered the call. We always know when we hear it.

        I suspect we are both putting up Straw Men in places and burning them to prove our points without making any ground whatsoever. Burning straw men is definitely zero sum math.

        Passing judgement in a vacuum and presenting one side it appears I may be indeed doing.

        Since I’m so passionate about this and I’m running face-first into people I respect, I need to re-examine if I’m being blinded into seeing something only one way. My TV, newspapers, government, schools and state churches tell me I should be seeing it exactly how you and Mr Truthseeker do.

        My gut says something else. I accept the possibility that all my senses may be failing me during these times. I have been this wrong before.

        ( I will shut-up until I’ve looked more and allowed these new thoughts to pass through without placing judgement on them. )

      • HumanBeing

        ZeroSum,

        I have gained respect for you in your recent responses. Mature people can at least consider being wrong, even if they don’t change their minds after investigating something. Your willingness to consider other possibilities, even if it turns out that you still hold the same position, is what matters most.

        We live in an age of great deception, as you well know. We have come to question everything we thought we knew, yet at the same time, being aware that not all new “discoveries” are necessarily true either. Everything we see and hear is a show of some sort, and finding the whole truth is almost impossible.

        I think we are both motivated not only by justice and truth, but also by a great desire to see peace come to an area of the world that has seen precious little of it. I can’t imagine living on either side of the many conflicts there. And if I could stop it, I would. But as an ordinary US police state peon, the most I can do beyond helping people within local reach is to join the internet war of ideas and try to present as much of what I believe is true as possible.

        Personally, I believe this endless war stems from a family feud thousands of years in the making, between two twin brothers, Jacob and Esau. There is a supernatural element to it all, and it will require a supernatural solution. This is why peace treaties and diplomacy can only delay or pause the suffering.

        Anyway, thanks for being irenic, and I hope we can walk together on this.

      • 0 Sum

        Quote:
        ” I hope we can walk together on this”

        Even-though we seem diametrically opposed on this topic I dare say we are HumanBeing.

        The fact that we could both stop for a moment and see each other again between the hurt we are feeling for others, proves something arguing never could.

        Quote:

        “We live in an age of great deception, as you well know. We have come to question everything we thought we knew, yet at the same time, being aware that not all new “discoveries” are necessarily true either. Everything we see and hear is a show of some sort, and finding the whole truth is almost impossible.”

        I have been looking at the shadows sweating on the wall from inside the cave my whole life. Newsreaders, tv, radio, teachers, parents and leaders have been narrating those scenes with colourful language designed to reinforce the illusions. I am more than a little scared that “the grand delusions” mentioned in the WORD are bigger than we could ever guess. I’m not fooled into thinking Arabs, Muslims and other eastern folks are better than us and infallible… far from it.. they are just like us… pawns heading to the abattoir. I have lots of thoughts on Hamas and none are good. It appears that Hamas is using it’s own people to further it’s agendas.. sounds like more NWO crap to me.

        Quote:
        “I think we are both motivated not only by justice and truth, but also by a great desire to see peace come to an area of the world that has seen precious little of it. I can’t imagine living on either side of the many conflicts there. And if I could stop it, I would”

        Thank you for these healing words. They prove to me again that we are more alike than apart.

        For what it’s worth, you can be assured my friend that I would be at least as wound up if I thought ANYONE was inflicting lopsided damage to The State of Israel and it’s citizens… even if it was my own country performing the operations. I have shed more than a tear or two trying to imagine being a Jewish parent during times of persecution.

        IMHO, the gift of life and soul was granted to all God’s children. All are of equal value and important.

        I can’t imagine living under the current circumstances in that part of the world either.. on either side of the fence.

        ZS

        P.S.

        HumanBeing.. I have a genuine question if you end up back here.

        I also believe we will all be judged at an appointed time. It’s clear to me that one or both (or all) of us has been intentionally deceived on so many levels by design. In this example that brought us to blows, we both believe in our “Cor Cordis” ( Heart of hearts ) we are defending injustice. Do we have anything scripturally that clears up how things like this will be seen by God on judgement day? Will He judge our intentions as opposed to realities?

      • HumanBeing

        ZeroSum,

        Thank you again for your thoughtful remarks. It’s very much the same principle as in public education, where there is a critical difference between spoon-feeding facts to the students and teaching them how to think. In the same way out in the world, we need more people who step back and look beyond the surface of things. Nothing is as simple as it seems.

        I do believe that the vast majority of people on this planet would prefer to live in peace and mind their own business. But as someone said not long ago in a video I watched, the majority isn’t what matters; it’s the vocal, activist, control-freak minority. As long as such people exist, they will ruin life for everybody else. And that’s what we are shown by the media, mainstream and alternative alike: the few, the controlling. Innocent people are used as pawns by both sides of any conflict, and it’s all for the profit and power of a tiny minority.

        I do believe that there is a supernatural element in all this, one that knows only hate and control and lies. And there is no doubt in my mind that the bulk of reporting on the ME conflicts leans heavily against Israel. I don’t condone vile behavior on either side, but only one side is being vilified for it. Of course, there are individuals who certainly do turn a blind eye to both the sins of Israel and the suffering of the people in Gaza, but there are many more who do the opposite. And sometimes in my quest to bring some balance, it comes across as being one of the “blind eye” people.

        Re. your question, yes, I believe the first question God will ask is about our attitudes and motives. This was Jesus’ central teaching, after all, since what we do flows from what we think and believe. I honestly believe that the reason God allows dissent even among fellow believers is to see how we deal with it, not whether we possess the greatest skill in rhetoric or garner the most followers. All the criticisms people make against denominations, factions, and arguments are valid, but I believe God has a purpose in allowing them.

        Of course, this is not to say that correct teaching doesn’t matter. The whole reason we have the Bible is to balance spirit and doctrine. Doctrine alone is like a ship stuck in the sand, and spirit alone is like a ship with no rudder. Neither one by itself will serve the purpose for which a ship is built. But together, like a ship with a rudder that is out on the sea, spirit and doctrine achieve the purposes God has intended. So while there are indeed some core teachings we must believe for salvation, we cannot make secondary teachings something which hardens our hearts and robs us of compassion.

        So all this scapegoating of one side or the other is just what our Adversary wants. But what God wants is for us all to hold to the scriptures without forgetting the destination and purpose of the trip. What matters to God is what kind of people we turn out to be, and how we treat others will flow from that.

        I don’t know if I’ve clarified anything, but I gave it my best shot.

        By the way… before I read your comment, I was writing up what I intend to be my final post or comment here at BIN. Rest assured you’re not one of the people I’m talking about in that post. And at the end there is an invitation of sorts, and you’re welcome to take advantage of it. God bless.

  • Pix

    It’s all irrelevant when, if the future is known for a fact, freewill could not exist. We would be left with predestination to follow the known future exactly like a preprogrammed Sim. If you didn’t something other than the known future, you would prove God a liar.

    Life would be utterly pointless. I think your beliefs are depressing and thoroughly disempowering, anti-spirituality.

    • mikesavage

      Pix;
      That’s because you don’t understand the scriptures.

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