God, Law, and Fire
GOD, LAW, AND FIRE
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The laws of God as given to Moses and then repeated to the Israelites covered the scope of sins against God to sins against a neighbor. The civil laws included theft and destruction of property. The victim of the crime was to always have repayment or recompense. Theft required repayment of double the amount taken. Some crimes including murder, rape, and adultery could not be repaid, thus the perpetrator was to be put to death and God would tend to the punishment at that person’s resurrection. Most cultures view murder or death in general as an extinction process with no hope of restitution. God, on the other hand, perhaps views death as a temporary cessation or pause of an individual’s timeline that will begin anew in the future.
The Sabbatical Year Every seventh year was supposed to be a special Sabbatical year (Exodus 23:10-11). Everything including the land and work animals were to have a year of rest. The commandment is to sow and reap for six years, and to let the land rest on the seventh, “that the poor of thy people may eat; and what they leave the beasts of the held shall eat”.
This year was also a release to servants, slaves, and debtors in general where they slaves could rest with their family and debtors would be temporarily excused from paying their debts. At the end of the year, everything would return as it was before the start of the Sabbatical year.
The Jubilee Year At the end of seven Sabbatical years, the next year was to be a Jubilee year. This proclamation of a fiftieth “liberty” year occurs on one of God’s annual feast days known as the Day of Atonement. The Jubilee year is similar to a Sabbatical year except that a complete restoration was to be made. All servants, slaves, and debtors were to be set free for the duration of their life. All land, property, and possessions were to be returned to the rightful owner. All debts were to be canceled. It is a time of freedom and of celebration when everyone will receive back their original property, and slaves will return home to their families. No planting of any seed or harvesting of any produce from fields or vineyards.
Unlike the American justice system, no crime other than murder or sexual offenses is to be punished for the life of the perpetrator. All crime, including murder and rape, will be judged by God at the second resurrection. All earthly punishment is supposed to have an end. There are no life sentences in the mind of God, only in the minds of earth dwellers who influence the criminal justice system. Prisons do not rehabilitate or restore anyone. A thief going in is a smarter thief going out.
Eternal Punishment? At this point, it should be apparent that God does not punish forever. Punishment took the form of stripes (no more than 40), double replacement of value, or labor (work) until the Jubilee. Eventually, everything was basically restored. That brings us to the “lake of fire” and the interpretation of many who consider the lake of fire is an eternal punishment of burning without death. If God did not allow a life sentence of punishment in the law given to Moses, why would God allow an eternal punishment of fire at the end of the age? Perhaps He did not and many are merely misinterpreting the scriptures because of their own mindset. In my opinion, God is in the business of atonement (reparation), not eternal punishment. This has not always been my opinion, mostly because of the influence of peers and Church teaching, but the conclusion has now been reached that God did not create souls to eternally punish. Rather, He created them to worship the King of the Kingdom and to acknowledge and obey the laws of God although a short term of punishment may be required as given in the laws transcribed by Moses.
Was the lake of fire always considered an eternal punishment of the damned? It appears from various commentator’s research, that many of the early Church Fathers considered the lake of fire as a purifying aspect and only when the Church moved to Rome with the writings of Augustine as the central commentary was the eternal punishment established according to the mindset of the Romans.
A few quotes discovered by Dr. Stephen Jones will be presented to show that eternal punishment was not the original interpretation.
Clement of Alexandria (150-213 A.D.) “God does not wreak vengeance, for vengeance is to return evil for evil, and God punishes only with an eye to the good.” ( Stromata, 7, 26)
Origen of Alexandria (180-253 A.D.) “The Sacred Scripture does, indeed, call our God “a consuming fire” (Heb. 12: 29), and says that “rivers of fire go before His face: (Dan. 7: 10), and that “He shall come as a refiner’s fire and purify the people” (Mal. 3: 2,3). As therefore, God is a consuming fire, what is it that is to be consumed by Him? We say it is wickedness, and whatever proceeds from it, such as is figuratively called “wood, hay, and stubble” (1 Cor. 3: 12-15) which denote the evil works of man. Our God is a consuming fire in this sense; and He shall come as a refiner’s fire to purify rational nature from the alloy of wickedness and other impure matter which has adulterated the intellectual gold and silver; consuming whatever evil is admixed in all the soul.”
“They are purged with the “wise fire” or made to pay in prison every debt up to the last farthing . . . to cleanse them from the evils committed in their error . . . Thus they are delivered from all the filth and blood with which they had been so filthied and defiled that they could not even think about being saved from their own perdition . . .”
Gregory of Nazianzus (329-389 A.D.) “These (apostates), if they will, may go our way, which indeed is Christ’s; but if not, let them go their own way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only very painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice.” (Orat. XXXIX, 19)
Theodore of Mopsuestia (d. 428), “ Who is so great a fool” as to believe that God would resurrect men merely to destroy them forever with torments? (Fragment IV) [887]
Titus, bishop of Bostra, “The punishments of God are Holy, as they are remedial and salutary in their effect upon transgressors; for they are inflicted, not to preserve them in their wickedness, but to make them cease from their sins. The abyss . . . is indeed the place of punishment, but it is not endless. The anguish of their sufferings compels them to break off from their sins.”
There are more quotes but the above should be enough to demonstrate the idea that the lake of fire as an eternal punishment was not the original interpretation but was conceptualized later and the person gaining notoriety for this deed is Augustine because he could not read Greek and relied on the faulty translation by Jerome of the original Latin vulgate. When the Church moved to Rome, reading Greek was now a non-issue and the writings of Augustine became standard interpretation.
The Origen quote above uses scripture from Malachi 3:2-3 as his testimony that punishment is not eternal but has an end similar to the Jubilee year.
Malachi 3:2-3 KJV But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: (3) And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Malachi comments that God’s fire is a refiner’s fire that separates the dross elements from the gold. The fire of God is a purifying fire not an eternal punishment fire.
The Fire of God God is perceived as fire, or some type of fire. Moses viewed God as a burning bush. God led the Israelites from Egypt as a column of fire. Moses listened to God as He gave him instructions on Mt. Sinai as a type of fire.
Exodus 20:18 KJV And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
There are several scriptures describing God as a fire.
Jeremiah 23:29 KJV Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
Isaiah 33:14 NET Sinners are afraid in Zion; panic grips the godless. They say, ‘Who among us can coexist with destructive fire? Who among us can coexist with unquenchable fire?’
Some scriptures view the fire of God as a judgmental purification agent.
Isaiah 26:9 NET I look for you during the night, my spirit within me seeks you at dawn, for when your judgments come upon the earth, those who live in the world learn about justice.
John the Baptist baptized with water but the Son of God baptizes with the Holy Spirit and with fire (referred to by early Church writers as the Baptism of Fire).
Matthew 3:11-12 KJV I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (12) Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that Jesus will purge the grain floor and burn up the chaff. Chaff is the sin and iniquities not eternal fire of torment. The burning of chaff is referred to by Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:12 as wood, hay, and stubble.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 KJV (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (13) Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. (14) If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
“For the day” in verse 13 may very well be the day of Judgment where every person’s works are revealed by the fire of God. Sinful works will be burned by this Godly fire but the individual will survive and be saved by the fire.
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Whistler Blowers, Insiders
“…many of the early Church Fathers considered the lake of fire as a purifying aspect…”
That’s what a study of the Word, apart from the misguiding traditions of men, will teach.
“…to cleanse them from the evils committed in their error…”
Let it not be said that this kind of cleansing won’t be very painful.
“…which is not only very painful…”
I guess it isn’t not said. (Was that English?)
“Who is so great a fool” as to believe that God would resurrect men merely to destroy them forever with torments?”
At which end does the line start?
“…the individual will survive and be saved by the fire.”
There are those who call themselves believers in Messiah, who bristle at the mere suggestion. Some have so much hate in their hearts that they can’t stand the idea of salvation for all Adam-kind. That’s about the deepest form of hatred I think I’ve ever encountered. My only hesitation with embracing this understanding was my fear that it might be wrong. A group of Reformed Christians I was addressing once on this topic asked me:
“So, you’re saying what, there’s a second BUS?”
They were having none of it. And at the time I was unsettled and unsound in the Word. I had little with which to answer them.
Lately I brought this message to another friend, a member of the Body. When I showed him the verses from 1 Timothy, his reply was:
“It’s because of the hardness of my heart that I never saw it before.”
That is a brother in Messiah.
Does the reference to 1 Timothy mean to convey the argument that the instructions are not made for the righteous but for the disobedient and that Messiah came to save the sinners? Excuse me, WALTER, if the question seems dumb but I am half idiot which should be obvious and prolly didn’t need mentioning.
Anyway this is a new concept for me because I only ever dug down to the eternal torment level where I figured out that the punishment didn’t last but thought I knew what the second death was all about and, although it scares me witless, had sort of got my head around a vengeful God.
Having said that the concept intuitively sits well and I have to wonder if that’s tied in with not being quick to judge and not being known for wishing hell-fire and damnation on folks.
On the other hand I’m concerned that it lessens the need for repentance because I’ve got a high pain threshold so depending on how it sits on the scale I might as well serve my own will and worry about it later.
Much to think about and to start with I’ll admit that Origen, Theodore and Malachi make a very strong case.
“…the instructions are not made for the righteous but for the disobedient and that Messiah came to save the sinners?”
Mayhem – Check out Ephraim’s article ‘The Redeemed Debt Note’:
/prophecy/2015/08/the-redeemed-debt-note-2472286.html
In the comment section of that article, I posted two verses from 1 Timothy which should remove any doubt as to the ultimate scope of salvation. Perfect is the work of the Most High. We were never going to end up with Satan owning a 60 or 80 or 90 percent success rate.
“I figured out that the punishment didn’t last but thought I knew what the second death was all about and, although it scares me witless, had sort of got my head around a vengeful God.”
Well, He is a vengeful God. But He’s got time on HIS side, so He can take a nice long walk while the evil children roast in the fire before He finally plucks them out and examines what’s left of them.
“Having said that the concept intuitively sits well and I have to wonder if that’s tied in with not being quick to judge and not being known for wishing hell-fire and damnation on folks.”
There is, I believe, a very effective indication of our individual spiritual health contained in how we receive this message. There is no shortage of brethren (so-called) who are wrath-filled and hate-filled and enjoy little else the way they enjoy savoring the thought of everyone THEY deem unfit for salvation eventually being tormented PERMANENTLY… … or else being ultimately extinguished in a final, brutally painful execution. No better warning about this very trait could have been given than in Messiah’s parable about the wicked servant who was forgiven a great debt, but subsequently refused to forgive the small debt owed to him by an underling.
“On the other hand I’m concerned that it lessens the need for repentance…”
Big mistake. First off, we’re seeking Messiah, or we should be, for many reasons. Among those reasons is that we are promised inheritance with Him in the Kingdom. No false brethren of fornicators or idolaters (etc.) will gain any inheritance in the Kingdom. So if you turn back now, having put your hand to the plow, then you’ll be unfit for any of it. Recall this verse:
Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Shame and everlasting contempt does not sound like something any of us should be settling for, especially when we consider that our Father has a habit of UNDER-stating things. HIS idea of shame and contempt will almost certainly vaporize any puny concept of shame and contempt we can conjure in our puny and feeble imaginations.
“…because I’ve got a high pain threshold…”
You’re thinking with the flesh. You have no threshold for spiritual anguish. None of us do. And even if we did, our Father could always tweak it so that everything hurt orders of magnitude worse than it otherwise would have. Lasting, piercing, suffocating spiritual anguish. Agony, grief, heartbreak, misery. Brother, you don’t want any of that.
“…so depending on how it sits on the scale I might as well serve my own will and worry about it later.”
You’re fearless enough to post a thought like that. My instinct would have been to THINK it, but never to haul it out into the light of day. It’s a perfectly natural thought, however. You’re just not considering the TRUE implications. The TRUE consequences. The obedience of His children is rather important to our Father. Disobedience of the kind you make mention of here, would be met with swift and crushing defeat. Best case. Worst case, He would wait and allow you to accumulate an even greater burden of debt. Remember… every last farthing will be repaid.
“Much to think about and to start with I’ll admit that Origen, Theodore and Malachi make a very strong case.”
The Jubilee makes the case even better. (Another reason a study of the Calendar is so important – which you’ve been hearing my harp and grumble about for years.) And understanding the sequence of the ages helps a great deal also.
Have a fruitful romp through the Word gathering manna. I know you will. And I know you know that’s where the answers are.
Thanks for the link, WALTER, and it looks to me that we’re saying the same thing, concerning Paul’s exhortation to Timothy, just differently. Have I read that correctly?
Your counsel to study the Sabbath, the Shemitah and on to Jubilee is noted and thank you for the heads up. But what of this calendar or is the object of the exercise to understand the events rather than the time line?
I had foolishly neglected these teachings based on an argument related to not knowing God’s calendar but if it was merely excuses I was looking for I’d be with those who would tear the book in half. Crikey, depending on the cult, we could do away with the Tanakh, all of Paul’s Epistles and the Apocalypse to boot.
Regardless of my whining, about what I have presumed to be an admonishment, I have heard that a study of the Feasts goes a long way toward understanding God’s purpose/reasoning/methods and readily admit there is much work still to be done.
Correct me if I’m wrong, WALTER, but did you mean to suggest that I was taking the way of Cain, a cloud without rain, twice dead and in accord with the prophecies of Enoch? And if so will you, dear friend, be merciful to one who doubts?
Not to worry because either way my hypothetical was not a threat to apostasy rather than a bumble footed attempt to address something I’m struggling to understand. And, at the end of the day, I’ve got far more to worry about than whether or not my questions give offence to the Most High.
Yes my perspective is from the flesh for, until quite recently, I knew of nothing else but rest assured the plow is cherished in my hand. But do you argue for a class system, in the new Kingdom, with your reference to Daniel?
I have it that even the lake of fire is not eternal but age abiding and will eventually die out for lack of fuel, after its purpose has been met of course, and is this what “Aionian” means?
“Have I read that correctly?”
Time will tell.
“But what of this calendar or is the object of the exercise to understand the events rather than the time line?”
The timeline is important, but it’s only a fragment of what we glean from Calendar reconstruction and study. The pattern of the Jubilee and the Grand Jubilee (490 years) takes us in ‘grand’ directions when viewing prophecy. I argue currently against ‘Gina’ (who won’t engage me in conversation because I began our discourse by insulting her – women tend not to like it when we do that) as she teaches that all prophecy has been previously fulfilled. My argument is that, though prophecy has in a great many cases been ‘somewhat’ fulfilled, there will yet be a future and perfect fulfillment of all of it – most especially the portions left dangling by her model. A study of the Calendar makes this, my argument, ever more apparent. The Calendar works in much the same way I believe prophecy works. There are shadows and there are echos of events yet to come.
(Gina’s latest contribution wherein I make many of these arguments:
/religion/2015/09/the-beast-of-revelation-2495240.html)
“I had foolishly neglected these teachings based on an argument related to not knowing God’s calendar but if it was merely excuses I was looking for I’d be with those who would tear the book in half.”
A study of the Calendar is its own reward. At first, the very notion of ‘calendar’ study bored me to sleep. But I was drawn into it against my wishes. This thing is vast and only in error do we call it a ‘calendar’ – not knowing what else to call it really. The showbread on the table in the Temple is called the ‘Lechem Ha Paniym’ – the Bread of Faces. The Faces of YHWH. The showbread is the key to unlocking the ‘calendar’ and it may well be that the ‘calendar’ itself is called The Faces of YHWH. Big, big stuff. To see it in action superimposed atop Scripture is incredible, but we still cannot use it flawlessly today. We may never be able to until He returns – or perhaps shortly before. But the lessons associated with the study make it a worthy endeavor nonetheless.
“Crikey, depending on the cult, we could do away with the Tanakh, all of Paul’s Epistles and the Apocalypse to boot.”
Some of us know better. Others of us, like AlphaBet, would simply write our own scripture:
/religion/2015/08/yahweh-is-the-devil-as-stated-by-jesus-this-is-the-deception-of-the-nations-you-must-overcome-2495164.html
“Regardless of my whining, about what I have presumed to be an admonishment…”
I have yet to admonish you for anything at any time, brother. You admonished me once, way back in the beginning. And you were right to do so. I was being unforgiving toward another commenter. I’m sure you recall.
“…I have heard that a study of the Feasts goes a long way toward understanding God’s purpose/reasoning/methods and readily admit there is much work still to be done.”
A study of the feasts, yes. But a study of the TORAH in its entirety. Just look at the mileage King David got out of meditating on the Law.
“Correct me if I’m wrong, WALTER, but did you mean to suggest that I was taking the way of Cain, a cloud without rain, twice dead and in accord with the prophecies of Enoch? And if so will you, dear friend, be merciful to one who doubts?”
What doubts he, this dear friend? You’re not thinking about diving back into dark waters, once you’ve tasted of the Living Waters, so what are we even talking about? Sometimes we just need our Father to bring His rod down across our backs, right between the shoulder blades. That rights us in hurry. Last time He smote me thus, I couldn’t walk upright for SEVEN DAYS. Kind of hard to miss that fingerprint, no? That was for breaking a vow. Just this past year. Righteous, I am not.
“Not to worry because either way my hypothetical was not a threat to apostasy rather than a bumble footed attempt to address something I’m struggling to understand.”
Not to worry because your meaning was not mistaken.
“And, at the end of the day, I’ve got far more to worry about than whether or not my questions give offence to the Most High.”
I said you were brave, brother. I didn’t mean to suggest you gave offense. Question EVERYTHING. Prove EVERYTHING.
“But do you argue for a class system, in the new Kingdom, with your reference to Daniel?”
I argue for a hierarchy. Satan counterfeits everything. He certainly counterfeits hierarchy. There’s a contributor here who says Paul is a false apostle because he teaches hierarchy, when Messiah taught no hierarchy. The commenter is wrong. There is a definite hierarchy in the Kingdom of Heaven. Our works and our deeds will weigh heavily on our standing and our landing, wherever we land, once we continue our conversation on the other side Jordan.
“I have it that even the lake of fire is not eternal but age abiding and will eventually die out for lack of fuel…”
Not too sure about that. Check out Ephraim’s article, coincidentally entitled:
‘The Lake of Fire’
/prophecy/2015/09/the-lake-of-fire-2472436.html
“…after its purpose has been met of course, and is this what “Aionian” means?”
Says who that its sole purpose is the disposal of dross? It may well be a bit more involved than that. But in any event, there are future ages yet to come. More hoopleheads have to be born and slog through the same labyrinth we’re trying to become free of. Lucky them.
And I suppose aionian means age-abiding, according to the simplest and most concise definitions I’ve found.
Indeed I’ve over stated my position with regard the lake of fire. I wonder might the fire be put out by the Father (whom i presume Jesus meant when he said it was prepared for the devil and his angels) once His age abiding purpose is met. Or purposes are met. Anyway it’s purely speculative, admittedly, and it will be exactly as Father wills it that much I do know.
Yes the hierarchy; I chose to use “class-system” on purpose as a segue into how well hu-manity has done everywhere that a distinction is made based on caste. But then i remembered that the elect will be directing the new way, under the direct guidance of our King, and decided i was being stupid bringing it up. But of course there is a hierarchy described in Scripture.
As to the the remainder of our discussion, i’m on it but there’s a ways to go yet, thanks for the suggestions, brother.
walter
what about Job 24: 20? and Malachi 4:1- 3
Job 24:20
The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.
In chapter 23 Job begins one of his responses, which carries into and through chapter 24. So what is Job talking (complaining) about in 24:20? How the wicked and the adulterous reap the bounty of God before they die; how God ‘layeth not folly to them.’ Job is griping his opinion that the wicked commit their deeds and go to the grave unpunished by God:
24:17
For the morning is to them even as the shadow of death: if one know them, they are all in the terrors of the shadow of death.
24:18
He is swift as the waters; their portion is cursed in the Earth: he beholdeth not the way of the vineyards.
24:19
Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave consume them which have sinned.
Truthseeker,
This is Job’s lament that the wicked are punished neither BEFORE they die, nor after. Why do you think Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Elihu were so hard on him? Job was un-righteously (and erroneously and falsely) accusing god of injustice. That was Job’s only real sin throughout the entire Book.
Malachi 4:1
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
This is describing the Day of Wrath here on Earth. Brother – no one is saying that the wicked will not be punished. The wicked are going to be punished SEVERELY, exactly as it is written.
4:2
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
So too will the righteous who wash their robes in the Blood of Messiah be protected.
4:3
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
And those of the Body who are alive and remain at the time of His coming, in addition to those He brings with Him when He comes, will indeed fulfill this verse. There is going to be a lot of smoke, yeah? And ashes. Lots of ashes. Contained in those ashes will be the mortal remains of the wicked who assembled themselves in battle array to make war against our KING. But their physical end is not their ultimate end. And this passage is not describing the refining, Aionian Fire.
Walter are you saying the Lake of fire is to cleanse the wicked of sin and not burn them dead and into ashes?
That is precisely what I am saying, Truthseeker.
And that is what the Word of God teaches.
Walter
maybe I am misunderstand, God is going to burn folks in the Lake of Fire until they love HIM?
The way you say it makes it sound like something Mike Tyson once grumbled.
Say it like this, Truthseeker, which is the way the Scriptures say it:
Whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
The chaff comes off from the wheat. The chaff is the refuse; the offal; the sin. What does it mean to be baptized with fire, if not to have all of our extraneous filthiness burnt away by the unquenchable flames?
Walter,
Sorry, but I am not with you on this and I do carry things out to extremes to make the point.
In brotherly love may I ask one more question?
Paul in Hebrews 10: 26 has this to say:
26 “For if we sin — WILLFULLY — “AFTER” that we have received the knowledge of the truth —- there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins.”
My understanding of this scripture is — if one has repented, has been baptized and received the Spirit by the laying on of hands and one THEN goes back into the world and “knowingly” purposely begins to sin — the sacrifice of Christ is no longer available to that person.
This is the person that can not be in the Family of God, God will not allow a “Satan” into HIS family.
If there are some that simply refuse to obey, refuse the sacrifice of Christ — what would you do with them?
Christ will take out the trash and burn it.
The 2nd Death is an act of mercy. I would never want to live for ever as will Satan with his state of mind. I can think of no greater punishment then to live as will Satan for all eternity.
Hebrews 10:26-27 KJV For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews 10:26-27 LITV-TSP (26) For if we are willfully sinning after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice concerning sins, (27) but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and “zealous fire being about to consume the adversaries.” Isa. 26:11
I’m not Walter, but I would like to add a comment. I believe verse 26 needs to be read with 27 to make a complete statement. A willfully sinning person that knows the truth is perhaps beyond repentance. Repentance being the sacrifice for sins because Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice and our only sacrificial event is repentance. This is the basic Gospel of Jesus, “Repent and follow Me”. Therefore, as per this post and the next, “The Lake of Fire” it is my opinion this person will not be a part of the 1st resurrection of overcomers and/or first fruits but will be a member of the 2nd resurrection and face the purifying action of the lake of fire or the fire of God. The word devour literally defines as consume or eat as in food.
Ephraim,
Then what is the 2nd death??
And if one willfully begins again to sin and rejects the sacrifice of Christ and refuses to obey the HOLY Righteous WAY of God. Then—How does the lake of fire change that person mind??
If a person has had a life time to repent, does repent and then goes back to sin.. how does God by fire change that mind??
Rev. 20: 4, 5 states the saints come up in the first resurrection and rule with Christ for 1000 years AND THEN THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVE AGAIN — that is a 2nd resurrection which is to physical life.
See Ezekiel 37.
Every one not having an opportunity for salvation are given their one shot at eternal life during a short period after the 1000 years.
Think of the billions that have lived and died as pagans, muslims etc and the abortions and that little kid that drown yesterday- don’t they get their chance?
At the end of this period, which is foreshadowed by the 7th Feast which is Called THE LAST GREAT DAY the 3rd resurrection takes place, that3rd and last resurrection is to CONDEMNATION.
All those that refuse to repent, refuse to obey are cast into the Lake of Fire and are burned to ashes –they are ashes for eternity and even the memory of them is removed,. That my friend is the 2nd DEATH and it is final.
God will never force you to repent -against your will.
Truthseeker wrote:
“Paul in Hebrews 10: 26 has this to say:
“26 “For if we sin — WILLFULLY — “AFTER” that we have received the knowledge of the truth —- there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins.
“My understanding of this scripture is — if one has repented, has been baptized and received the Spirit by the laying on of hands and one THEN goes back into the world and “knowingly” purposely begins to sin — the sacrifice of Christ is no longer available to that person.”
And that is a perfectly fair assessment of the verse, as I understand it. I believe to turn back from Messiah, once we have been taken into His fold, is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit; the crime for which there is no forgiveness. There is no forgiveness to the end of the age:
Mark 3:29 (KJV)
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation…
Sounds pretty cut-and-dried, no? But see here what happens when we look at a literal, word-for-word translation of the verse:
(Scripture 4 All dot org http://www.scripture4all.org/)
Mark 3:29
Who yet ever should be blaspheming (should be harm-averring) into the Spirit the Holy not is having pardon (or, is not having ‘from-letting’) INTO THE EON but liable is of eonian judging.
That is word-for-word, brother. There is no additional doctrine super-imposed upon the wording of that verse. And the verse is clear: Blaspheme the Holy Spirit and we are LIABLE to receive no pardon for it INTO THE EON. But Scripture makes it very clear also, there have been and there will be eons (ages) to come:
PRIOR AGES
Colossians 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from *AGES* and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints…
AGES TO COME
Ephesians 2:7
That in the *AGES* TO COME he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
* In both verses, the word AGE/AGES is:
G165 αἰών aiōn (in Ephesians 2:7) and aiwnwn aiOnOn (in Colossians 1:26).
Continuing, you wrote:
“This is the person that can not be in the Family of God, God will not allow a “Satan” into HIS family.”
It is absolutely true that God will not allow the unholy, the unclean, the defiled or the wicked into His family. Please hear me agree with you on this point, with enthusiasm. But there is nothing in Scripture which says that the wicked will be wicked FOREVER. A refiner’s fire is a refiner’s fire. It is a fire for the purposes of purification. Purification involves a destruction of the dross; of the impurities which keep an object, an element, or a person from being perfect.
“If there are some that simply refuse to obey, refuse the sacrifice of Christ — what would you do with them?”
I would teach them. And they who say: ‘I will not believe until I see with my own eyes’… I would show. I would make them to behold until they had nothing to say. Those who deny Messiah and hate God do so ONLY because they do not know Messiah and they do not know God. Their ideas and conceptions are all wrong. Those ideas and conceptions need to be corrected. And they will be corrected.
“Christ will take out the trash and burn it.”
Yes He will. He will burn them with Aionian Fire. But search the Word to learn the nature of Aionian Fire.
“The 2nd Death is an act of mercy.”
The second death IS an act of mercy. But it is also an act of correction. And I know you think death equals oblivion, but that is not what the Word teaches. That is what men teach.
“I would never want to live for ever as will Satan with his state of mind. I can think of no greater punishment then to live as will Satan for all eternity.”
That’s because you make the mistake of thinking eternity equals a very long time. But eternity has nothing to do with time. Eternity is the OPPOSITE of time. Eye has not seen nor ear heard…
…Just try to remember how inefficient our ability to grasp these concepts really is, before you go knocking a concept like eternity. Let the Most High do the driving. Let the Word do the teaching.
And while we’re at it, if you can read 1 Timothy and tell me that Paul leaves ANY doubt that all men will be saved, then you’ll have to explain to me how it is you’re managing to do so when Paul states in the plainest language possible (even in translation, even in the King James) that God is the Savior of ALL men… ESPECIALLY those who believe.
For, WALTER is the winner of BIN’s SPAM SUPREME award for the 4th straight year!
Sure did STINK up this Comment section, eh, WALTER?
Slinging that never ending stream of christo-CRAP that comes out of your diseased, warped male Caucasian brain!
[Quote]Every one not having an opportunity for salvation are given their one shot at eternal life during a short period after the 1000 years. [Unquote]
It is not certain the length of the age after the Millennium. Yes, everyone will get their change during this post-Millennial age. Of course, this is just my opinion due to the lack of Biblical information concerning the post-Millennial age. Everyone gets a chance, so to speak, and it appears that everyone will be cleansed and purified.
[Quote] God will never force you to repent -against your will. [Unquote]
No one knows how all of this will work. I see no scriptural hint that God will force repentance. I don’t understand the workings or the mind of God – and neither does anyone else. We are given a limited amount of information called the Bible and the remainder is based on faith. If God says that He will cleanse and purify everyone then I accept it without knowing exactly how it is done or even why it is done.
The Jubilee laws (appear to me) are the laws that regulate or validate the ways of God. These laws did not allow for life sentences and I would add second life sentences. The human mind desires that evil people be punished and they will be punished but not for eternity.
The lake of fire is not an actual fire but the energy of God (whatever that happens to be). It could be that people refuse to repent because they don’t actually believe there is anything to repent for or any reason to repent. They may say they believe in God but they don’t really believe. They may occasionally go to Church as a safe bet (just in case).
The scripture says that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and this is the second death. And whoever was not found in the book of Life was also put into the lake of fire. My opinion is the lake of fire is the temple laver which is also called the molten sea. If everyone is resurrected there is no need for death and hell and so it is eliminated. The laver was for cleansing and the molten sea or lake of fire will also be for cleansing. How it works, I do not know but apparently it does work, only God can give someone the full answer and God does not speak to me directly (unlike as some individuals claim on BIN). I may get information sent my way, sometimes in unexpected ways, but I never claim that God speaks directly to me. If it ever happens I will let everyone know.
It is my belief that God knew every person that would ever live and every action or non-action they would ever take before the instant of creation. God created all people and it is my belief that God would not destroy or punish eternally the vast majority of them for doing or not doing what he already knew before they were created. If I think of anything else I will recomment.
walter
You would teach them?
The Last Great Day, the 7th Feast of each year, if I understand Isaiah correctly, will last 100 years, this time directly follows the 1000 years. It is also call The Great White Throne Judgment.
the earth will have been restored back as the Garden of Eden, a Paradise! and there will be physical converted humans that lived into this period from the 1000 year reign and you will also have the Saints of God on earth as well— including David, the prophets, Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the Apostles all the people of GOD.
Those in the 2nd resurrection that come to life at the beginning of this period will be given their opportunity In paradise with all of the best teachers ever. Even the animals will not harm.
There will be only GOD’s WAY only GOD’s LAWS and Holy Days — yes they will be taught by the very best – and then — Satan is let loose one last time, all those that have had the very best teachers the best opportunity will be tried and some Satan will convince and will turn away.
Christ destroys them all,
Walter did you understand Rev 20: 4,5? there are 3 resurrections and 2 deaths. Ephriam ignored the 2 death, the 2 death is not death??? its life eternal?
If man does not have the,– lets call it the right,– to tell God I will not obey you, if a person is burned in the fire or baptized until they almost drown to convince them God’s Way is the right way??? If he will be forced – then I do not understand the God I follow.
Walter
One more comment; I am being tried in the fire NOW! I am having to live it this sick evil world and watch my family and friends be ripped up.
I have to watch what the schools are doing to my grand kids and what this world is doing to the 35 others in my family.
Remember Clyde, the elder i mentioned. about 2 weeks ago he cast out 6 demons from a members son. I talked with him until 8:30 the next night and the next day he was killed.
A logging truck, 50 to 70,000 lb hit him in the drivers side door going about 60 — he died — a 70,000 hammer hit him perfectly.
Clyde was the finest man I have ever met.
None of this will happen to those in the 2nd resurrection until Satan is turn loose. Those in the 2nd resurrection will be in paradise BUT some will still rebel. It is not a matter of teaching it is a matter of human carnal nature.
Ephraim
The catholic religion is the one pushing “Mysteries”, “we don’t know and we can’t understand”,—- that is a lie.
Christ Stated YOU Shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.
Every thing needed for salvation IS in the Old Testament, plus we now have the new testament, the only thing we are told we can’t know is certain prophecy and they will be be open to Gods’ people when the 7 years of the time of the end begins.
The Bible is not opened by the human mind. The Apostles were with Christ for 3 1/2 years and they did not know much until Pentecost when they were given the Holy Spirit.
You are writing many words and yet you know very little it seems.
—–
“The lake of fire is not an actual fire but the energy of God (whatever that happens to be)”
“”It is not certain the length of the age after the Millennium. Yes, everyone will get their change during this post-Millennial age. Of course, — this is just my opinion due to the lack of Biblical information concerning the post-Millennial age.— Everyone gets a chance, so to speak, and — it appears — that everyone will be cleansed and purified.
“Christ destroys them all…”
You’re speaking of destruction of the flesh. And I find nothing in the Word which says otherwise. I have been looking at this equation for many years now. From beginning to end, the answer is not ultimate death for anyone.
You’re asking many questions, Truthseeker. But you haven’t answered any of the questions you’ve been asked in turn. I would ask you this:
If death takes final hold on even ONE person from any age, how can it be said that Death is swallowed up in victory?
Or…
When Messiah told the parable about losing ONE sheep out of 100, and dropping everything He was doing to go in search of that ONE missing sheep, what do you think He was describing?
Truthseeker,
What is an acceptable success rate for our PERFECT Creator? Is a 40 percent success rate acceptable work for the perfect Worker? How about 50 percent? 75?
No. Not even 99 is an acceptable percentage ratio for the perfect Worker.
100 percent. And nothing short of it. Our Father’s work is perfect.
“Walter did you understand Rev 20: 4,5? there are 3 resurrections and 2 deaths. Ephriam ignored the 2 death, the 2 death is not death??? its life eternal?”
I understand the feasts (relatively speaking). I said to you earlier I believe you mistake the nature of death because you believe death equals oblivion. To die in the flesh is something we know about, but not from experience. To die after we are resurrected is not something we know about at all, beyond what is written about that event, and precious little is written about it. What is written about extensively is that God is the Savior of ALL men. And this last statement finds its witness throughout the entire scriptural narrative. Many of the verses arguing forcibly for total salvation have been posted right here on this page, but you seem intent on dismissing all of them in favor of the idea that only FEW of God’s children will be brought through this process with their being intact. I suggest to you that the very notion of a God who allows 60, 70, 80 percent, or more, of His children to perish utterly, is a slight against His Nature and a slander against His Administration.
“If man does not have the,– lets call it the right,– to tell God I will not obey you, if a person is burned in the fire or baptized until they almost drown to convince them God’s Way is the right way???”
I do not believe you are looking at this question correctly. I see it not as a ‘changing of the mind’ but as a ‘perfecting of the substance.’ People are disobedient to God for a multitude of reasons. But all of those reasons have this in common: they are all rooted in falsehood. People who hate or who disparage the Most High, do so ONLY because they stand in some form of error pertaining to their conception of Him. I contend that to KNOW God, is to leave no other choice than to OBEY God. (I should say TRY to obey Him – I better say, lest He smite me for hypocrisy.) I contend that many people (just like Thomas Didymus) will have to be shown with their eyes what we have (hopefully) perceived with our spirit. This isn’t really changing their minds. This is adjusting their ‘machinery’ so that they can rightly realize and discern that which IS; whereas before they had not managed to rightly apprehend that which IS because their opinion got the better of them and obscured reality. People who do not know God are, for lack of a better term, ‘defective.’ But the defect, it will be shown, was always of their own making. These people cannot get out of their own way to save their own lives. They do not know their right hand from their left. They ARE dead. And the dead know nothing.
“If he will be forced – then I do not understand the God I follow.”
Hopefully I have answered that objection.
“I am being tried in the fire NOW! I am having to live it this sick evil world and watch my family and friends be ripped up.”
That is absolutely true. We are, all of us, even now in the process of being refined. Reprobate silver fights against this process and denies the process with all their might. They operate against their own interests out of self-love or some other selfish motivation.
“I have to watch what the schools are doing to my grand kids and what this world is doing to the 35 others in my family.”
I’m not trying to make small of your struggle, brother.
“Remember Clyde, the elder i mentioned. about 2 weeks ago he cast out 6 demons from a members son.”
Only six? What happened to the seventh? Did it escape?
“I talked with him until 8:30 the next night and the next day he was killed.”
Sounds like he was truly an effective warrior against the Enemy. His gain is your loss, but only for a short season.
“None of this will happen to those in the 2nd resurrection until Satan is turn loose. Those in the 2nd resurrection will be in paradise BUT some will still rebel.”
That may be true. Or it may not. I do not see the Thousand Year Reign of Messiah here on Earth as being conducted in a state of paradise. I find the Word teaches that the land will be in terrible disarray at the beginning of that period, and may well be at the end of it also. What would be the point of beautifying the Earth only to render it asunder by fire at the conclusion of the thousand years, when the New Heavens and New Earth are born?
“It is not a matter of teaching it is a matter of human carnal nature.”
The Scriptures teach what they teach. I have no say in the matter. I have no interest in fooling myself or anyone else. My interest lies in the lessons taught by the Word of God, and doing the best I can to rightly discern as much of the meaning as possible.
Consider answering a few of the questions put to you, if you feel you are up to it.
walter
I will answer but not to night, I may have time in the morning.
I am beat.
At your leisure, brother.
Well thank you for all your compliments. And since I have a lot of words but know very little then my comments are finished are far as you are concerned.
@Truthseeker who asked…
“If there are some that simply refuse to obey, refuse the sacrifice of Christ — what would you do with them?”
… and in fairness to WALTER it is the question that presumes his authority to teach, not the man himself, and therefore your subsequent incredulity seems misplaced.
Walter I will email my comments this afternoon
Ephraim, it’s unfortunate that your articles don’t get more traffic.
Excellent work, and I look forward to reading more from you.
I expect it is a sign of the end times. Everyone wants to read about a so-called prophet claiming an asteroid will hit the Atlantic ocean this month or one claiming Jehovah is Satan but no one is interested in understanding scripture. The second resurrection will perhaps have many that have learned of Christ but are not interested in submission.
Very interesting article, Ephraim, your considerable effort is appreciated. I do wish the naysayers, who claim there is no accord among the believers, would acknowledge articles such as this so that I don’t have to build another bridge.
At the end of the one thousand years, the following events will take place: (a) Christ and the righteous will descend from heaven, with the Holy City, the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2,10); (b) the wicked dead will be resurrected (Rev 20:11,12); (c) Satan, his angels and the wicked will receive the final wages of sin when fire comes down from God out of heaven to utterly destroy them, death and hell. This is the second death (1 Cor. 15:26; Rev 20:7-10,14,15); and (d) this fire, which destroys the works of sin, will purify the earth (2 Peter 3:10-14; Mal. 4:1-3; Rev. 20:4,8).
THE NEW EARTH
#28. The earth, cleansed by fire and re-created by the power of God, will become the eternal home of the redeemed and God Himself will live with them. (2 Peter 3:9-13; Isa. 65:17-25; 35:1-10; 45:18; Matt. 5:5; Mal. 4:1-3; Prov. 11:31)
http://www.remnantofgod.org/Hellfire.htm
amminadab
what do you do with Revelation 5: 10
10 “And Has made us unto our God ‘kings and priests’ and WE shall “reign” on the earth” –
notice it says “ON THE EARTH” and does not add the phrase — “from heaven”
Christ returns as KING of kings and LORD of lords: the kings and lords are the saints and when they come to earth to RULE — Zechariah 14: 4 -5
4 And his feet shall “”stand”"” in that day upon the mount of Olives, —- which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: ——–and the LORD my God shall come, —– and ALL the saints with thee.
Jesus Christ is returning to earth to rule for 1000 years and the Saints will come with Him after they are resurrected and meet Christ in the clouds.
By the way you are limiting God when you say earth is their eternal home –the SONS of God will plant the heavens. God the Father is the architect and Christ the builder, the Family of God will develop the universe as it expands.
Hell Fire Is Real
Matthew 13:42 Jesus Christ said the lost will finally be cast “into a furnace of fire.”
Matthew 3:12 John the Baptist said the lost will end up in “unquenchable fire.”
Punishment for Sin and “Hell” Is Future – Not Now
Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of this world.”
Matthew 25:41 Jesus Christ sends the lost into the fire after His Second Coming.
2 Peter 2:9 God will “reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”
Revelation 20:11-13 The day of judgment occurs at the end of the 1000 years.
Revelation 20:5a, 13-15 The “lake of fire” occurs at the end of the 1000 years.
The Final Hell Fire Will Be On Planet Earth
2 Peter 3:7 “The heavens and the earth which are now … are reserved unto fire.”
2 Peter 3:10 “The earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”
Revelation 20:8-9 At the end of the 1000 years, “They [the lost] went up on the breadth of the earth … and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.”
Hell Will Totally Destroy All the Wicked, Even Satan!
Psalms 37:20 “The wicked shall perish … they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
Psalms 37:38 “Transgressors will be destroyed together.”
Ezekiel 28:15, 18-19 Even Satan will become “ashes” on the “earth” as a result of the fire.
Malachi 4:1, 3 The “day cometh” when the lost “burn up” and become “ashes.”
John 3:16 Those who are lost will “perish.”
Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is “death,” not eternal life burning in hell.
Matthew 3:12 “Unquenchable fire” will totally “burn up” the wicked.
Matthew 10:28 “Fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
Revelation 21:8; 20:14 “The lake of fire … is the second death.”
Even The Lake of Fire Will “Pass Away”
Revelation 20:7-9 At the end of the 1000 years, the lost are “the earth.”
Revelation 20:9 God’s fire falls on them, and they are “devoured.”
Revelation 20:14-15 The earth becomes one big “lake of fire” as God purifies it from sin. The lost suffer the “second death” in that lake.
Revelation 21:1 Then there is a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and first earth (where the lake of fire was) has passed away.
Revelation 21:4 In the New Earth, there will be no more pain, suffering, sorrow, or death.
Note: If the lake of fire burned forever, there would always be pain and sorrow somewhere in the universe and Revelation 21:4 could never come true. But it is true. Sin will be gone forever and pain will cease to exist throughout God’s entire universe!
http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/
Aren’t the Scriptures perfectly clear about this subject?
Malachi 4
4:1 For, behold, the Day cometh, that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the “I AM” Lord of hosts, that it shall leave of them neither root nor branch (nothing).
4:2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in The Day that I shall do [this], saith the “I AM” Lord of hosts.
4:4 Remember ye and return to The Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, [with] the Statutes and Judgments.
4:5 Behold, I will send you EliJAH the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful Day of the “I AM” (Sura 43:61):
4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
(Note: the curse referenced in verse 6 is described in verse 1)
Source: King of kings’ Bible
http://jahtruth.net/kofk-free/Bible
The Fire (Lake of Fire, Hell-Fire, etc.) is reserved for the last day, for those who refuse to return to keeping The Law God gave us on Mt. Horeb in Sinai. ALL of the evil that is happening on this planet is the direct result of us not keeping The Covenant/contract with our Creator to LIVE by The Law (found in the first five books of the Bible).
The Law is the ONLY Way to TRUE Freedom, Justice, Peace, Prosperity, Safety and Security for ALL. Shouldn’t we start doing what we’ve been COMMANDED to do for our own benefit instead of continuing to do the same things over and over (i.e. trust in ourselves and man-made legislation which the rich use to impoverish and enslave the masses) and expecting different results?
Yes I believe the scriptures are perfectly clear. The scriptures you refer to is a “wrath of God” description that occurs prior to the Millennium and many people will die, many by fire from meteorites, solar flares, volcanoes, and other sources. However, “the wrath of God” is not the subject of the article, but rather the lake of fire and the second resurrection.
God’s Law is the ONLY Way.
When will the True Israel (Champions of God) wake up? How bad do things need to get??
Could YOU be one of them? The answer might surprise you!
See “The Key to Understanding America’s Future”:
/prophecy/2015/09/the-key-to-understanding-americas-future-is-in-its-past-2472412.html
Hey Ephraim,
About everyone being eventually purified.
I like giving the enemy as little attention as possible, but for the sake of context.
In my experience that agrees with particular scripture, I have found that devils and demons are really bad, totally corrupt, evil spirits. In encountering them, I can understand why a lake of fire would be necessary.
So, when Yhshua called certain ones, children of the devil,* ( John 8 ), then these folks are of the same nature that would require the lake of fire, even though here on earth “by sight”, some of them appear to be “ok” folks.
I have never detected any good in demons and devils, and if that is a correct understanding of my perception, then when they-the-trash is taken out, and is burned with unquenchable fire, then there would be nothing left to save, and whatever it is, is burned into infinity, unquenchable fire.
I never included evil spirits in the action “love your enemies”.