Rapture? When? (Part I)
WHEN IS THE RAPTURE?
This will be my first attempt at writing an article here on BIN so please forgive me if it ends up being less than professional…as it very likely will.
The rapture seems to be a topic of increasing interest among Christians. It also seems to be a very contentious topic. I don’t quite understand the “heat” that springs up around the topic and I hope we can avoid too much of that as we discuss the evidence in the comments here. It’s not necessary or productive. There are certain doctrines in Scripture I consider “juglar” doctrines primarily because they relate to salvation. Those we may need to go to the mat for because getting those wrong could easily end up costing someone an eternity in the wrong place. If we get the timing of the rapture wrong, nobody is going to the lake of fire for it. I believe the topic is important, very important for many reasons, but its also one we can agree to disagree on without fear of eternal consequences. Try to bear that in mind in the comments and have the grace to allow others to walk in the light and understanding they have. I certainly don’t have all the answers yet and I doubt anyone else does either.
Before I begin, let me explain a bit about how I approach the Scriptures. I don’t demand that you adopt this exact same posture but it will let you know where I’m coming from if I explain a bit. If we can agree on hermaneutics it will make it easier for us to discuss any Biblical topic so it’s worth talking about.
HERMANEUTIC HYGIENE
Hermaneutics is just a fancy word egg-head theologians use and it refers to our “philosophy of interpretation”. It’s a term that refers to how we interpret and understand the Bible. I hold to what many would consider a VERY strict hermaneutic. As follows:
a. The Bible is God breathed, inspired by Him and not the work of men.
b. It is inerrant and complete.
c. There no synonyms
d. Every word was placed by God for a specific purpose, not one word is superfluous.
e. Every word is placed exactly where it is placed in relation to all the other words on purpose, by design. Not one word is out of place, accidental in its placement or casually placed.
Practically speaking, this means that I hold the Word to be true even if I don’t understand it. It also means that if I come to an “understanding” and later run across even ONE verse that contradicts my understanding, it is my understanding that is flawed, not the Bible. That gives you a handle on me in this discussion. If you can show me how I have misunderstood a passage or show me a Scripture passage that contradicts my understanding, I will change my understanding. I am more interested in knowing the truth than I am in being right. But you will have to hit me with Word, not opinion. 
Now to the meat I’m going to throw out a passage, explain my understanding of it and then invite comment. I believe there is an event we understand as the rapture (harpazo is the actual word used in the Greek) and I believe that Revelation Chapter 20 actually tells us exactly when it will be.
Let me post the whole passage first and then we’ll dissect it:
__________
Revelation 20: 1-6 (NKJV)
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.
But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
__________
Just to expand on the context a bit here, in Revelation Chapter 19 we saw the end of the Great Tribulation culminating in the final defeat of the antichrist and the false prophet. Jesus returns with the armies of Heaven, defeats His enemies and the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire. As Chapter 20 opens we see Satan himself being chained and restricted from influencing human events for a season.
Beginning in verse 4, we see a very specifc group with very specific characteristics being defined. Those who are in this defined group are specifically said to “live and reign with Him” for a specific time period defined as “1000 years”. I’m going to call this group “the martyrs” because that seems a pretty good description of that list of qualifiers in verse 4.
Verse 5, then identifies a second group, which I assume includes EVERYONE who was not specifically included in the first group and indicates exactly when their resurrection takes place.
You probably noticed I bolded that final sentence in verse 5. That appears to specifically identify the “martyrs” as participating in the FIRST resurrection.
In my world of strict hermaneutics FIRST has to mean exactly what it says. And there can only be one “first”.
How do we reconcile this passage with the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture?
As Jean-Luc would say….“ENGAGE!”
And please try to keep Galatians 5 in mind as you engage:
Galatians 5:22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Sincerely,
Jostler
PS: There’s a great deal more, and if there is interest and we manage to have some productive conversation around the Word I’ll post a few more discussion points in future articles. What I’d hope to get to, is exactly how God intends for us to get through the tribulation and the role the Bible assigns us in that time. It’s actually quite encouraging stuff
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uggh…nasty font size. I’ll work on formatting and hopefully get a bit better at this
Better now, bigger font but formatting needs some work too :/
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9OLkipOzWYqY3dSa3RiUUFoZVE/view?usp=sharing
also loooool, did ya see how i got those idiots to stop downvoting me? xD jump! jump thru my hoops pink monkeys!
I downloaded that link quite a while ago from a post where you linked it before. I highly recommend it as an introduction to some of the issues surrounding the inspired nature of the Bible.
It’s not comprehensive, but it’s a darn good start. Panin’s work is something a determined seeker can duplicate for themselves. What that man accomplished, without a computer, was simply astounding.
God left His fingerprints, His signature all over the Bible in supernatural ways we can’t even duplicate WITH computers. It begins in the surface text with the incredibly precise fulfillment of prophecies written hundreds, and sometimes thousands of years prior to their fulfillment.
Anyway, thanks for sharing that Ricardo.
BTW, I’ve been called all kinds of names before, but that “Orthodox” is a first for me
Not that I’m offended by it….it’s one of the nicer names 
40 odd authors, 66 books, written over a span of 1600 odd years, all telling one story. No human agency could have possibly managed that.
God left His fingerprints, His signature all over the Bible in supernatural ways we can’t even duplicate WITH computers. It begins in the surface text with the incredibly precise fulfillment of prophecies written hundreds, and sometimes thousands of years prior to their fulfillment.
===============
Now all you have to quickly do before you properly begin is show the absence of God’s signature in anything and explain it.
…Damine…I’m gonna back you up on this. I don’t know if you have read through ‘the manual for life’, essay, but if you will, you will get some more ammo for your statement…:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9OLkipOzWYqY3dSa3RiUUFoZVE/view?pref=2&pli=1
Why would I want to do that? His fingerprints are all over the place in nature. I’d be a fool to try to show an absence where His fingerprints clearly exist.
Jostler
So what is the significance of the Bible? Compared to say …a turd sandwich or a Three Stooges DVD (with commentary)?
For you Damine? Absolutely none. Go enjoy your lunch
…good one jostler….
I have a feeling Jostler and I will become friends.
Agreed, Max. Good one, Jostler.
…Jostler…where exactly do you find any proof of the rapture in scripture?
It’s hard to tell but I don’t think that he does. I think he thinks that it is the rebellious people who will be taken and not the decent.
He has a point about the people who will have to wait until the millennium has passed before being given new bodies being 2nd raters first needing to be taught a lesson.
===============
Plato had the same idea.
After death the soul is judged for the deeds in its life, then sent to punishment or bliss for 1000 years
After this 1000 years they are supposed to be ready to choose their next life
The Fates lay out all the choices in front of them, but each soul chooses his or her next life
Then they drink from the River of Forgetfulness and are reincarnated into their new choices
The Afterlife becomes a Purgatory, a place to purify and prepare yourself for your next life
damine ..you have the most mixed up and convoluted theosophy OI have ever seen. Even when you’re correct, your attitudinal affliction makes what you say worthless. You serve only yourself…in some pitiable way.
Im guessing you will discover that jostler doesn’t actually have any view on anything and is just responding to his own vacant posts with his own vacant responses.
I have no idea why.
…damine…and that makes it ok to to insult and disrespect people?….not very Christian of you. Its like YOU are judging other’s hearts and intentions 24-7….makes me think you actually are not Christian at all…just desperate troll looking for kicks. You know, any way you look at it, Christian folk are to HELP others see truth…
…see the positive, if possible…nasty.
Maxwell
Ah, the…gnostic is …..swooshing around …. again
I stand by what I said. No view on anything
…You’re still nasty and unconscionable…Your path to perdition is smooth and direct. make haste…Your prideful reaction was totally predictable
Where we’re going
…. DUH DUH DUH! ….
we won’t be needing EYES
…. DUH DUH DUH! ….
or any other organs
…. DUH DUH DUH! ….
I find proof of the concept many call the rapture here:
I Thessalonians
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
I prefer the word resurrection myself when describing the concept since that is the word used in Revelation. The actual word for “caught up” in verse 17 is “harpazo” in the Greek
….Remain=survive. those who are ‘asleep’ are those that have died…already with the Lord…gone…we can’t precede them. Trumpet of God- seventh trump. at the ‘end’ of the trib….again the the dead in Christ rise first…already gone. “alive and remain”- stay till the end.
…First thing out of AC’s mouth will be “c’mon ya’ll we gonna fly outa here.”
…Satan comes first two in the field…one is taken, one is left…AC gets the first one NOT the one that ‘remains”.
…Mark 5:19-”for in those days shall be affliction, such as was not since the beginning of the creation which god created unto this time, neither shall be.
..20…And except had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake , whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
..21…and then if any man shall say to you, lo, here is Christ; or, lo, He is there; believe him not.
..22…For false christs and false prophets shall rise,and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
.23….But take heed: behold I have shown you all things.
.24…But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened and moon shall not give her light.
..25…And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers in heaven shall be shaken.
..26…And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.”
…this scripture tells us the “affliction”, the trib, the darkening of the sun, the stars falling from heaven, ALL occur BEFORE the coming of the Son of man.
We that remain,(survive) will see it all happen.
……These are red letter words of Christ.
…Note…Christ said nothing at all about anybody getting out ANY other way. Either ‘dead’ or at the END. That’s it! Dead will be easier, by far, and only His elect will see the end in flesh body. That’s the exact reason the AC will ‘seduce’ many, many christians into the the belief he can ‘fly’ them outa here.
…If you KNOW that Anti-christ comes first, ‘disguised’ as Christ, you’re probably one of His elect. Just DON’T be the first one taken.
VERY Interesting Jostler I fully agree with your hermeneutics and I look forward to your future articles. I just wanted you to know that there are those of us out here that agree with you even though this is not a popular understanding in mainstream study of scripture. I just wanted to give you Kudos and tell you to keep at it before the vultures attack. Blessings to you. It took me many years of study to come to the understanding of what you put in this article. So I understand this perspective and do not take it lightly!! Good Luck… As an avid BIN reader I will be searching for your other articles…
I guess my first comments did not post… Very interesting Jostler. I fully agree with your hermanuetics. I just wanted to let you know there are those of us out there that do agree with you even if most in mainstream scripture study would not agree. It took me many years of study to get to this same understanding that you posted in the above article. I just wanted to give you Kudos before the vultures attack and let you know that I look forward to your future articles. Keep up the good work and Blessing to you!!!
Thanks Mrs. Green. My greatest desire is not to be “right” but to understand the truth. And it took me many years even notice that passage, much less believe it.
For years I taught a pre-tribulation rapture with full conviction that it was the truth. I never meant to deceive anyone and I don’t believe those who teach it today are intentionally misleading anyone any more than I did.
Over the years though, the Lord showed me at different times and in different ways just how precise and exact His Word is and once that happened quite a few things I thought I knew had to be adjusted.
A great deal more is clear now, but I also know there is much left to be revealed. I hope to find others who want to search out more of those things.
It’s an amazing Book
Psalm 138:2
I will worship toward Your holy temple,
And praise Your name
For Your lovingkindness and Your truth;
For You have magnified Your word above all Your Name.
In Big agreement with you here Jostler. We seem to have followed the same path in our scriptural study. I was pretrib for the first 31 years of my life. The last 15, after diligent study and trying to show my self approved, I came to the same conclusions that you have written about in this first article. I look for the truth… I can ALWAYS be wrong and GOD”S WORD shows me in scripture when I am. I think we have only broken the top off the ice-burg of understanding. I am just glad to finally see those that teach changing their minds and perspectives based on what the scripture actually says not what they were taught in a bible school. It’s God amazing revelation to me when he shows us those insights. Be BLessed and I am going to read the 2nd article you published today…:)
A valiant plunge into BIN publication, Jostler.
Arguments (discussions even) about the ‘rapture’ are outside of my area of interest. But THIS:
HERMANEUTIC HYGIENE
…is a compelling topic for conversation. You gave your bullet-points for definition of strict hermeneutic:
“a. The Bible is God breathed, inspired by Him and not the work of men.”
Agreed. Without further comment.
“b. It is inerrant and complete.”
Agreed. But Bible inerrancy is a topic which is increasingly under intense scrutiny from within and without the camp of believers. How we define and then defend our definition of inerrancy is a topic of increasing concern. Those who advocate against Bible inerrancy are becoming more informed, more nuanced, more sophisticated and more effective in their delivery.
“c. There no synonyms”
Would you please explain what you mean by this?
“d. Every word was placed by God for a specific purpose, not one word is superfluous.”
To say as much without qualification leads to many questions. Do you apply this claim to translation? Or is it only to the Scriptures as originally written. Is it to the extant Manuscripts? What? Because the way you worded that statement leaves much to be desired with respect to ‘strictness.’ We are under increasing pressure here in the BIN to hold to strictness. You’ll see.
“e. Every word is placed exactly where it is placed in relation to all the other words on purpose, by design. Not one word is out of place, accidental in its placement or casually placed.”
Again, with respect to Papyri, Manuscripts, text copies, translations – this statement is not well-qualified in terms of ‘strictness’ of language. Let us be strict indeed.
And welcome to the BIN.
Bro you’ve opened several questions that are beyond the scope of this article but deserve answers. It would take volumes for me to answer thoroughly which I don’t have time to do at the moment. Let me give you some short, incomplete answers for now until we can delve into this a little deeper. I suspect you have some things to teach me about those questions so I’m interested in the topics. I’ve learned *some* things about this but I’m far from an expert or scholar in the original texts.
For now:
“b. It is inerrant and complete”
assumes we are talking about the texts in the original languages. Translation by nature becomes transliteration and sometimes we have to go back to the root languages to discern precisely what God meant. I speak both English and German and anyone who speaks two languages surely knows the difficulty of precisely translating meaning from one language to another.
“c. There are no synonyms”
Over time I have come to see that words in scripture I THOUGHT were synonymous, actually hid very subtle differences that, when noticed, revealed incredible, fundamental truths. My flat statement “there are no synonyms” is probably actually an overstatement. But it reflects my commitment to studying what I THINK are synonyms all the harder. Very often words that seem almost the same truly are, but beware that “almost”. Sometimes that “almost” can hide great revelation we overlook if we’re not watching carefully. I’ll give some scriptural examples of what caused me to adopt that stance if we ever take this up in detail.
“d. Every word was placed by God for a specific purpose, not one word is superfluous.”
Wow
That IS one big kettle of fish right there 
. For now let me say I’m applying that to the original text, not the translations. But, when we go to derive meaning, we also need to include the whole counsel of the Word….so that quickly opens out into a very broad plain which I don’t dare tackle here for time’s sake.
“e. Every word is placed exactly where it is placed in relation to all the other words on purpose, by design. Not one word is out of place, accidental in its placement or casually placed.”
This, again, assumes we are dealing with the original language the Scripture was written in, which again quickly opens out into a much broader and complex set of variables to negotiate.
IMO it all calls for a great humility toward the Word (and toward each other) and great faith in His promise to lead and guide us into all Truth.
Most of the time, these very fine grained issues are not extant in our discussions. The vast majority of the things we need to understand are well interpreted by the Word itself. We may have to delve into some of this more complex level of interpretation but the passage I’ve focused on today is pretty straightforward.
These more complex issues will need to be dealt with as the topic demands.
I hope that clarified a bit even though it’s admittedly incomplete.
It seems to me that if sound hermaneutic rests on anything, it rests first upon sound understanding of language. I say this by way of agreeing with you in part, but the part I disagree with is what you suggest is beyond the scope of this first presentation of yours. By that I mean, it is helpful to define terms before proceeding to render arguments based upon terms left undefined. ‘Bible’ for example, is a term best defined from the outset. ‘Inerrancy’ is a term best defined through demonstration before seeking to prove doctrinal truth based on inerrancy. In the past, this website has proven to be frequented by many readers for whom Biblical inerrancy is a topic best demonstrated — especially demonstrated in a hostile environment in debate with those who would like nothing more than to ‘demonstrate’ that the Bible is a flawed work of flawed men.
Jostler, once you present yourself as a defender of the Word in this forum, it is only a matter of time until the raptors surround you and try to humiliate you.
Defense of the Word is not an idle pastime in the BIN. It is work.
By saying so, I do not mean to impugn your efforts. I only mean a word of caution as to the nature of our environment and the character of our fellow website contributors.
Don the armor.
[email protected]
In my fumbling with getting this posted I managed to post two copies of the same article. TransTexArchangel made some brilliant comments on the other post and I’m trying to get him to repost his comments here. If he does I’ll delete that other article of the same name to avoid confusion.
Might as well leave things as they are for now. TransTex found you there, which means so will everyone else.
In addition to which, you’ve explained the issue on both boards — here and there.
O hey I happen to revisit and saw your above comment . I tried to find my original and couldnt so I will take a stab at a recap of what I said. It was an inspired comment and sometimes I have trouble retrieving those kind of thoughts but let’s see. First I am a she and I have a degree in prophecy because it is my fav subject in all the world. I firmly believe in a pretrib rapture mostly because the Word says that we are not appointed to wrath. It makes no sense to say to your Bride (the church) I am preparing a table before you for the marriage supper and I am coming to get you but first I am going to beat the crap out of you for 7 yrs. St Paul tells us that we who alive and remain will be taken up into the clouds with those who died in Christ and we shall all be changed from mortal to immortal and live with Christ. My understanding of events is that the church will be taken off the earth before the trib. The 24 elders seen in Heaven are representatives from among those who were taken home before the trib. When the rapture happens it will make believers out of former non believers but it will be too late for them to escape and they will have to endure the trib. During the trib is when you will be forced to take the mark or die by loosing your head. The martyrs seen under the altar are the souls of those who were beheaded by choosing Christ. When as many as are going to choose for CHrist have done so and joined us in Heaven is when we will all come back with Christ to finish the battle and deal with the anti christ and false prophet and see satan cast into the pit. The people who made it through the trib without loosing their head are the ones who will repopulate the earth during the thousand yrs after which satan will loosed a little minute. During this time the sheep and goats so to speak will be divided. It is one final round of weeding out those who stand for God and those who fall for satan. Satan will gather an army and make his move at which time he and all his followers will be destroyed along with death and hades go into the lake of fire and after that death will no longer exist and there will be no more suffering forever.
haha…I messed up both your name AND your gender. My apologies.
This is a link to the original article I now want to delete for the sake of avoiding confusion:
/alternative/2016/05/rapture-when-3352520.html
If you choose to copy/paste that comment here I encourage you to. You’ve done a stellar job of outlining some objections I would like to address.
What I’m hoping to do is drag ALL of our beliefs into close scrutiny with the Word standing as final judge.
To do that, we’ll have to analyze what the Word says, what we interpreted it to mean, and then question if our interpretation is actually Scriptural.
My idea is to bite it into small chunks so we don’t descend into the chaos of trying to consider way too much at one time. If we can go back and “test” our analysis of the jigsaw PIECES….make sure we understand the shape of the pieces…I suggest that the whole picture begins to fit together very easily.
It will take both time and effort, but I suggest the result is VERY worthwhile.
a. Flesh eating bacteria is God breathed, inspired by Him and not the work of men.
b. Flesh eating bacteria is inerrant and complete.
c. Flesh eating bacteria is not a synonym.
d. Alll flesh eating bacteria was placed by God for a specific purpose, not one flesh eating bacteria is superfluous.
e. All flesh eating bacteria is placed exactly where it is placed in relation to all other flesh eating bacteria on purpose, by design. No flesh eating bacteria is out of place, accidental in its placement or casually placed.
That was an impressive and thorough display of you, Damien, confounding The Word of God with a result of God’s work.
Flesh-eating bacteria, Maiden? Really?
Are you getting lazy? Or is it just me.
It’s probably just God.
I thought you were Catholic?
Why are you even here?
WTF…
… 
… 
The Rapture will occur when the past the future brings fire to our soul. On bended knee I pray the problem is yours God Amen
Fire is a very interesting and very timely topic, though I’m unsure exactly what you intended to say about it. One thing I don’t see many Christians expecting is that cleansing fire, which I believe is at the door. Maybe we can get to that eventually
For now:
1 Peter 4
16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
_____
Hebrews 12
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
_____
The good news is that disciplinary fire is intended by a loving Father to purify and correct, not destroy….and I think this is His aim in it:
2 Thessalonians 2
when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
He is coming to be glorified IN His people before He comes FOR His people. To be vessels capable of manifesting His glory, that burning fire of His manifest presence, there’s a whole lotta flammable wood, hay and stubble that has to be removed. If I’m understanding the witness in my heart correctly, that is where His attention will be here in the near future.
How we respond in this place of a loving Father’s focused intention to purify His people will determine how we relate to everything that follows.
He’s very focused on getting us ready for this:
Isaiah 60
1 Arise, shine;
For your light has come!
And the glory of the LORD is risen upon you.
2 For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,
And deep darkness the people;
But the LORD will arise over you,
And His glory will be seen upon you.
3 The Gentiles shall come to your light,
And kings to the brightness of your rising.
We have work to do. And He is very focused and determined to prepare us to get it done.
And don’t think I’m sitting here
I hate laptop touchpads
Let me finish that last sentence
“And don’t think I’m sitting here pointing fingers at others and excluding myself. He said this to ME…FOR me. I merely share it for anyone else out there who is hearing the same thing or senses HIM saying “you too, son”.
HAIL HAIL HAIL BROTHER JOSTLER!
3 things. not really questions for the esteemed author of this article,
-What, is the “Mark of the beast” according to SCRIPTURE.
- What, is the “Mark of YaHWeH” according to Scirpture.
-What exactly, must still be fulfilled, according to Luke 21:22.
The other point that bothers me, is how millions of pork eating, lawless , beardless, fornicating adultering “sunday xtians” suddenly think they imbued with the Righteousness (defined below) of Elijah, that they ca now all be suddenly found ACCEPTABLE, without TRIAL or anything, no, everyone will get trial, but they, they just ELijah outta here. Now, WHAT IS RIGHTEOUSNESS? and, what exact levels of insane self deluding pride does one need to imagine you can just rapture outta here an skip Abbadons party?
Righteousness
In Scripture this word means to do what is right in the eyes of the Father, or as most scholars of Scripture agree: “Righteousness is conformity to law, especially to the law, mind and will of [the Almighty], which is the norm of righteousness.” In Deḇ. 6:25 / Deu_6:25 we read that righteousness requires of us “to guard to do all these commands before יהוה Elohim, as He commanded us.” In Teh. 119:172 / Psa_119:172 the Psalmist says, “For all Your commands are righteousness.” In Yesh. 51:7 / Isa_51:7 we read, “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, you people in whose heart is My Torah (law).” However before we start doing righteousness (the commands) we first need to be “declared right,” by belief. We first need to have our sins forgiven, we first need to come to belief, to come into a covenant relationship with the Most High through His Son יהושע. On this point Sha’ul repeatedly spoke in Romans chs. 3, 4 and 5. In his day many Yehuḏim thought that because they were the descendants of Aḇraham, and were trying to keep the law their way, that they were right or righteous. No! They were putting the cart before the horse. We first need to believe and accept יהושע and His forgiveness, and then only does it become our privilege, and duty, to obey יהושע, as He commands us: Go and sin no more.
ie, go forth and Keep the Commandments, . as easy as that really.
but, why you hear NOTHING about the Commandments from rapture people?
i suggest everyone study 2 Esdras. ja.
Bro if I gave my thoughts on what the mark of the beast is all I could do is rehash all the evidence that it is an economic mark that determines who can interact with the economy, and it’s a spiritual point of no return. I have a lot of speculation about exactly what form it will take but it’s just that. I actually shared some of my latest pondering on the topic in the comments attached to this post if you’re curious:
/blogging-citizen-journalism/2016/05/warning-worse-than-rfid-implant-a-666-tech-device-under-production-for-mass-release-2538189.html#comment_259502
But, I suspect what you’re REALLY asking me is related to Walter Veith’s assertions that the “mark of Cain” is the mark of the beast and has been around since the beginning (yes I watched the whole video
)
I’ll say this. I disagree that the “mark of Cain” represents complete fulfillment of the prophecies about the mark contained in the book of Revelation. But, wow…Veith does such a thorough job nailing down the “mark of Cain” and correlating it to the ancient mystery religions and how those are affecting today, I was very blessed to get exposed to what he had to say.
As far as pork goes, I promise I won’t serve ham sandwiches if you come for a visit
Oh, I forgot! Just what IS the mark of YaHWeh according to scripture? I see it mentioned as the very thing that preserves us from that weird chimeric army mentioned in Revelation Chapter 9 but I have no idea how God will apply it.
As far as Luke 21:22 goes, I don’t have the knowledge to write out a list of things that need to happen to fulfill that verse. You’ll have to expand on that.
It’s the Holy Spirit man… you get it when you become a believer
pffft! Too simple! ( which may well mean you’re exactly right
) ROFL!
Now that you mention it I can recall several verses that speak of being “sealed” with the Holy Spirit.
Thanks for that, it works just fine unless and until we get more detailed insight somewhere in the Word.
I have a habit at times of over complicating and overthinking some Scriptural things that are in reality simple enough for a 5 year old to grasp. I need people like you around me
So, now that you’ve made me feel thoroughly stupid….ya feel better??
(thanks again
Hello,
First off I want to say that I haven’t studied the bible extensively and I have never read the bible cover to cover before. I am doing so now as we speak. I’m still in the Old Testament and am looking forward to the New Testament.
I believe in god our father and in his son Jesus Christ as well as I believe in the bible. But I’m not sure I totally agree about your statement that “The Bible is God breathed, inspired by Him and not the work of men.” The bible was written by men, interpreted by men and the present day bible was put together by men. That’s why some books weren’t included in the bible like the book of Enoch. I have read the book of Enoch and it’s my understanding the only reason it was excluded in the bible was because Enoch said fallen angels came to earth and took the daughters of man as wives and layed with them begetting giants. The powers that be didn’t believe angels could take physical form to do that, they thought angels were spiritual entities only. So I’m on the fence with that.
I read the bible every day like I said and pray every night and in that prayer I always tell our father and Jesus both that I will never deny them. So when the time comes for them to try and put the mark of the best on me or tell me to convert or die, I will be beheaded.
I’m going a little off topics hear, but I want to share a dream I had the other day. There were many parts to the dream but what stuck with me the most was that I walked into a room and there was a young woman sitting on the floor. There was a female demon with her and they were about to have sex. The demon was nude and had the body of a fit young woman, had curved back horns on her head, no wings or tail that I remember but she was black with red markings from head to toe, or maybe she was red and black markings from head to toe. The girl looked at me and said “If you will die for him you can join us.” I said WHAT? And she looked over to her right. There stood a male demon, the same version of the female demon with a man tied between two posts. I don’t remember much of anything about the man. She said again “If you will die for him you can join us” I replied “If I will die for him? Hell, I will kick his ass. And we began fighting. We fought for a little while and I woke up. That has stuck with me for the past couple of days. I kind of wonder if that had been a test or not.
Again, I’m sorry for getting off topic and I promise I will stay on topic from now on, but for some reason I felt I had to tell you about it as we are just beginning our journey together as a kind of introduction. And I will be taking this journey with all of you.
Bless you friend, and welcome. You’re doing the right thing bro. Read it yourself. The Holy Spirit is THE Teacher of the Church and He can explain what He caused to be written better than any man can.
As far as I understand it, Enoch wasn’t excluded from the protestant canon of scripture because of the issues in Genesis Chapter 6. I *believe* it was excluded on the basis of its status as a “pseudepigrapha” which is a fancy egg-head theologian’s term for a book written under a pen name. In other words, most of those making the decision reasoned that if Enoch himself didn’t write the book, and someone CLAIMING to be Enoch did, that represented a level of deception God would not condone. There may have been some reluctance related to the issue of fallen angels mating with women as well…not sure on that score. Personally, I don’t see how anyone could argue otherwise. The phrase in the original language (bene elohim) that is translated as “sons of God” is used several times in the Scriptures and in every case it refers to supernatural beings…angels. IMO consistent interpretation demands we understand that those referred to as “sons of God” had to be angelic beings. It is an uncomfortable thought for many with “enlightened” western mindsets, but hey, it is what it is. Etheopian Christians are quite comfortable with believing the book of Enoch IS inspired, so that is a point on which not all agree.
I personally find the book of Enoch VERY useful even if it is not inspired. What we do know about it is that Jude lifted a whole paragraph out of the Book of Enoch and transplanted it virtually word for word into his own letter, which IS inspired. Since Jude refers to Enoch and it is assumed his readers must have been very familiar with it, at the very minimum Enoch at least represents a historical text that gives us insight into what the people of that day believed. I don’t build doctrine from Enoch but it sure does help me understand some of the detailed thought behind passages like Genesis 6.
About that dream
Let me suggest you take that back to Him next time you pray and ask Him to explain it. I suspect that WAS a test, but I’d check with Dad before being too adamant about it. More and more people are experiencing meaningful dreams these days, its a sign of the times.
Joel 2:28
“And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
IMO just getting into the Word for yourself is much more important than nailing down all the theological arguments surrounding its writing. But, if you want a brief introduction to some of that, take a quick look at this:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9OLkipOzWYqY3dSa3RiUUFoZVE/view?usp=sharing
It’s not terribly long and you might be surprised just how carefully copies have been handled down through the millennia.
There are 4 main raptures and 2 resurrections and these are not the same thing.
1st Raptured occurred when Jesus was raptured from Hades and took God’s people out of there as the penalty for sin had been paid.
2nd Rapture is the Pre Trib Rapture where the Bride of Christ is raptured before the 7 year Tribulation(the last week of Daniel).
3rd Rapture is of the 144000 male witnesses from Israel, Revelation tells us they are sealed on Earth at the same time the Christians are in Heaven and then later these 144000 witnesses are in Heaven. Revelation speaks about the Son(144000 witnesses) that was snatched to Heaven and describes that woman. It is the same description as Joseph’s dream 12 star representing the 12 Tribes of Israel, the sun representing Joseph’s father and the moon representing Joseph’s mother and this woman representing Israel in total. This occurs 1260 days before the Woman(holy Israel is raptured).
4th Rapture is the Woman (Holy Israel) which occurs at the end of the 7 year Tribulation and is the same time the Martyr are resurrected, the first Resurrection.
The 2nd general resurrection occurs after the 1000 year reign of Christ.
Before the reign of Christ occurs, once all God’s people are in Heaven, it is at that time Michael throws out the Devil and the Devil angels and they will bring total destruction on the Earth because they will come with great fury because they know their time is short. They are locked up and the Earth is restored and those that have been raptured and all the resurrected will be returned to the Earth.
I believe that the 7 year Tribulation will occur at the start of April 13 2029 when Apophis near Earth orbit will be seen by the naked eye (sign in Heaven) and will be complete when 7 year later it will crash into the Earth April 13 2036. Apophis means destroyer as does Abaddon and Apollyon of Revelation which is the name of the star crashing into the Earth that breaks the Earth mantle, Apophis has a 7 year cycle and Daniel was using a 7 year cycle (weeks of years) and also has a rock crashing into the statue which represent the kingdoms of the Earth and then God’s kingdom came into being, Daniel also stated that after 42 weeks of years the Messiah would be cut off and when Jesus was crucified there was darkness for 3 hours and something shook the Earth as it passed by, also Moses after 3 days of Darkness (again something blocking the light) was told to remember the date when the angel of death passed over for all generations to come and Apophis passes over on/around Passover.
Jesus was crucified and rose again on the third day which is symbolic of when He would return. Passages tell us 1 of God’s days are equivalent to 1000 years so 2000 years after Jesus was crucified bring us to Passover 2037? and then He will return.
I don’t claim to be right but it is my understanding at this point and the closer we get to those date the more clearer it will become to His people.
Amos 3:7New International Version (NIV)
7 Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing
without revealing his plan
to his servants the prophets.
Good grief bro….so much in there. If you don’t mind, let me ask you to hang onto this and bring it up again if you’re still following this series when we get to some of that.
I’m sorta winging it here, but I have a plan to introduce Scripture in small chunks to avoid the confusion that inevitably arises when we get too much on the table at one time.
My deepest motive is to get past all the stuff that causes so much fear, and begin to explore what His plan is for us in the midst of what will prove to be the most difficult time in human history. It is NOT something to fear. On the contrary, it will be one of the most exciting, powerfilled times we can imagine.
I’m going to try a fairly pedantic, step by step process…time will tell how well it works.
That passage from Amos is yet another KEY….and a big one. We need to develop a context, a foundation for understanding some of the things you’re alluding to, and that context has to be firmly rooted in the Word so anyone can see it. Then we can go on to putting the whole picture together. Our words mean nothing. His Word never fails.
Hi Jostler,
As this is one of my favorite topics, I think I can supply you with a view that is Biblical and will address your question.
First of all we need to define what is meant by the “First Resurrection” from a biblical perspective and secondly – who the Rapture is for.
So what, and more importantly, WHEN does the First Resurrection take place and at what point will this be complete. Here we also have to bring in the harvests of Israel that are given as part of the Feasts of the Lord. This is key in understanding this topic. You will know that there are three periods in the harvests of Israel: You have First Fruits or the Barley Harvest, then you have the Wheat Harvest and finally you have the grape harvest. Each of these harvests are not only physical activities, but also represents groups of souls that will be resurrected as part of the First Resurrection at specific points in time.
We know that Jesus fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits when He resurrected and was presented before our Heavenly Father as the First Fruits of the soul harvest that will occur on earth:
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
So technically this is the start of the First Resurrection according to God’s Word.
Next will be the Wheat harvest which will include a multitude of believers in Christ, both dead and some that are alive that will be brought before the Father. These are the people that will be Raptured BEFORE the Great Tribulation. We also know that this group is referred to in passages as being mixed with tares – which is an entire topic on its own:
Lev 19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
Lev 19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
You will note that the wheat here is gathered into the man’s barn, the timing of which can be tied to other passages such as:
Joh_14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Here we can see that God’s people are told to hide themselves in their chambers (the barn) before the Lord arrives to punish the earth. This is a further pointer to a pre-tribulation rapture of those that are part of the Wheat Harvest and will not see any of God’s wrath poured out on them.
Finally, there will be the Grape Harvest also known as the gleaning of grapes. This will be those souls who were not ready for our Lord’s return just before the final 7 years on earth and they will have to choose to sacrifice their life and receive salvation or choose to serve the beast and his image. These are those that come out of Great Tribulation and who have washed their garments with the blood of the Lamb:
Rev_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
This start of this period also seem to be associated with the complete destruction of Damascus:
Isa 17:5 And it shall be as when the harvestman gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim. 6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the LORD God of Israel. 7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.
Lev_19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
Lev_23:22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.
We can also see from other passages that this period of time is specifically set aside for Israel and is known as Jacob’s Trouble:
Isa_24:13 When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.
Jer_6:9 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall throughly glean the remnant of Israel as a vine: turn back thine hand as a grapegatherer into the baskets.
Those that are saved out of this period of time – up to the end of Jacob’s Trouble – will complete the First Resurrection, which started with Jesus being the First Fruits.
God has also promised those that have become sons of God that He will not pour out any of his wrath over them, but that the purpose of his wrath will be to bring Israel back to him – to recognize Yeshuah as as their true Messiah.
So to have sons of God, who has his Spirit living in them going through the Great Tribulation is not biblical and actually assigns attributes of a Bride-beater to our Father, which He clearly states in Genesis 18:
Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
I hope this helps to put the First Resurrection into perspective.
Blessings!
James, thank you for sharing and I plead with you for patience. I’ve been reading through some of your posts already and its a lot to absorb. Right now this project won’t handle the injection of all you have to offer, but if you can give me a chance to lay this basic foundation, we will eventually be widening the scope to take in a much bigger picture.
I appreciate your input.
James I meant to comment that the feasts of Israel is a topic I have only recently begun to research. It appears from your post that you have already done a lot of study in that area so I hope you’ll continue to share from those perspectives. The tiny bit of study I’ve done so far in that area has blown me away, but mostly its shown me how much I don’t know yet.
But, so far I have to stick with the Biblical witness I pointed to in Revelation Chapter 20. I can’t find evidence of more than two resurrections with time cues attached. There is a lot more to come and the overall picture I’m seeing is very different than anything I’ve heard before.
That, in and of itself, I perceive to be a “sign of the times”. I just may take a break from the “Rapture? When?” series and expand on that in my next article. I dunno…I’m trying to be flexible so don’t hold me to that. Sometimes I intend to write something and end up writing on something totally different
In any case, I look forward to hearing more from you.
Jostler, I enjoy discussing these topics and hear other people’s views. I do not believe that there is one person who knows it all – but we have to rely on what the Holy Spirit reveals to us and other through God’s Word and to divide Truth from lies.
The Feasts of the Lord is a very important facet in understanding the timing of prophesied events. The fact that God has built the universe in a such a way that it would actually provide markers that intersect specific Feast Days is even more incredible. That is why I was so astonished about the fact that the Revelation 12 sign – the only detailed “celestial marker” that plays out over a period of almost 10 months – marks the very next Feast to be fulfilled.
I believe this sign points to the Rapture of the Church the disclosure of the identity of the Antichrist and the start of Jacob’s Trouble as I have mentioned in my comment above.
I would appreciate your thoughts on the scriptures provided above – showing that the first resurrection is associated with Israel’s harvests and is divided into 3 stages that completes after the grape harvest.
There are also other scriptures and other approaches that can be taken to approach your question. Specifically, understanding the timing of the following verse:
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
From your perspective, when do you believe this will happen?
Looking forward to your comments and further discussions.
Here’s what makes this difficult. And yet it’s also what eventually brings us to a place where we can be very confident we are believing the truth.
You’ve built a long chain of evidence that points to a pre-tribulation rapture. I’m asserting that, if we simply believe Revelation chapter 20, there can BE no pre-tribulation rapture. We have to fiind a different answer unless we’re willing to say God lied when he wrote Rev 21 OR we discover we misunderstood what He said.
There are no other alternatives I can see. Either God lied, or my understanding is flawed.
….
We know God does not and cannot lie.
If my treatment of Revelation 20 above is incorrect, the result of misunderstanding….how have I misunderstood it?
If my understanding of Revelation 20 is correct…how can I cling any longer to the idea of a pre-trib rapture? (and thereby make God out to be a liar)
The second article tackles the “left behind” idea with the same hermaneutic. The third will be looking at other evidence.
What I hope to demonstrate is those places in scripture that cannot be true, if there is a pre-tribulation rapture. This passage in Revelation 20 is just one ‘witness’ ….more to come.
I meant to touch on 1 Th 4:17
Here’s the logic chain so far…if Rev 20 is true and my understanding of it is accurate, then that verse has to refer to one of the two resurrections portrayed in Rev 20.
I suspect it may actually describe both. But it’s most complete description would apply to the second resurrection.
Ok, I understand your concerns, but we should also keep in mind that there are various other aspects that have to be considered in order for God’s Word not to contradict itself based on our understanding of what is said. If I for instance said to you that what is known as the “The Lord of the Rings” concluded in 2003 and “this is the Lord of the Rings” – what do you understand? Does it mean that it is just one entity/event and that it began at the same time as its conclusion? I am sure you will agree with me that it is not.
It is also very important to read the Bible as a whole and to keep everything in context. The best way, in my opinion, to ensure that you understand God’s Word correctly is to compare an opinion with as many other verses as possible, pointing to or referencing the same topic/subject. If you then find that your viewpoint does not lead to any contradictions, you know that you are on the right path.
If one focuses on just one verse in the Bible and try to understand its meaning, without considering all of God’s Word, it is easy to come up with a variety of interpretations that does not have Truth as its basis.
By looking only at Revelation 20:5 I could say that “this is when Jesus will be resurrected” and I would not know whether my statement is true or not.
If we, for argument’s sake, assumed that God meant that all of the first resurrection took place at the beginning of the coming millennium, after the Great Tribulation and that this is also the timing of the rapture we have a number of issues that seem to contradict what other passages in God’s Word are saying.
Two examples that I will mention: The Bible describes Jesus’ second coming in two “modes”: one as a “thief in the night”, that comes unexpectedly, with sudden destruction coming upon the world and could happen at any time:
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
This time is also described as follows by Jesus:
Mat_24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The description in Matthew 24 above describes life as we know it now – people living their lives under normal circumstances not expecting anything out of the ordinary. If you consider the information provided in the chapters preceding Revelation 20 one would certainly not envisage a situation on earth where normal life is at the order of the day where Jesus said that He would have shorten the days from 24 hours to 16 hours to ensure that some flesh survive. When we think of the passage in which Jesus describes “the times of Noah” He also points to aspects that highlight the time before the flood, not the time after the flood. So in the same manner we should understand that when Jesus is referring to the thief in the night, that it is scheduled to occur before the Great Tribulation, not after.
Secondly, we have another description that is given of Jesus’ return:
In these passages we see a very different description and a countdown is given of 1,260 days from the time that the abomination in the Most Holy is set up until the Lord returns on the clouds with great glory, accompanied with his saints and where every eye who still live on earth will see him.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Mat_24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Dan_7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan_12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
These descriptions clearly point to the events taking place at the end of the Great Tribulation based on the well-known 3.5 years that have those alive on the earth arrive at that point. Now if we assume that these two “modes” of Jesus’ return point out a single event, I think you will agree with me that they cannot be true at the same time. You cannot have an unexpected arrival for which nobody knows the day or the hour and at the same time have a specific countdown of 3.5 years that is associated with it – down to the day. This would cause a contradiction and the only way to resolve this is to understand that the two modes refer to two separate events.
Similarly, we also know that God said in his Word that the Church has not been appointed to wrath and that He would keep those who keep his Word of patience from the hour that will come upon the World.
1Th_5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM (not in) the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
If we then understand that God will send his Church through the Great Tribulation where only Israel is offered protection, how do remove the contradiction that this viewpoint has with the two verses above? The purpose of God’s wrath is to destroy the sinners out of the world and to lay the land desolate.
Isa_13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Why would God destroy his Bride with the wicked in the Great Tribulation, and what purpose would the rapture serve at the end of the Great Tribulation? What comfort will there be for those that hope in this if they are going to suffer God’s wrath with the wicked?
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore COMFORT one another with these words.
Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Comments?
James,
Now that’s some sword sharpening right there. I have some questions about what you wrote but its very well reasoned and it relies on Scripture.
I’ll state here and now that I believe you got very significant parts very correct and you might be right about all of it.
Either way, when I challenge the parts I question I’ll do it with the same commitment you are exhibiting here.
This is exactly the type of discussion I appreciate because it forces me to test what I am saying against the Word…the ONLY standard of truth.
I’m going to paste this whole dissertation to a text file so I can be sure I refer to it accurately when I do get time to address it.
Will you give me permission to reprint this in future articles?
This is not going to be quick, there is much to be brought to bear with reference to that “whole counsel”. But I look forward to the process. Thanks for the sharpening
Just FYI, part of my motive in beginning this series came from a revelation contained in 1 Corinthians 13:9 –
For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
I recently came to believe that the Spirit was urging me to find others and begin pursuing Word based discussions with them. The reason was because He has chosen not to give any one man the whole story. I believe He did that because He designed us to need one another. I felt He was encouraging me to seek out others to whom He had given other parts, and that as we shared our parts a more perfect “whole” would emerge.
I know in part. But I’m greedy
I want to know your part too 
Proverbs 20:27
As iron sharpens iron,
So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.
Jostler
Hi Jostler, you are welcome to use anything I write as long as the glory goes to the Lord! I feel the same prompting on me to engage with people and to discuss these issues as the time left is extremely short, but there is still time for people to discover that God’s Word it the absolute Truth and to accept them into their lives and to avoid the wrath that is around the corner.
But also to provide substantiating information for those who will only realize the truth once the rapture have occurred and they are left with a decision to accept death in this world in exchange for eternal life or to worship the beast and to join him in his eternal damnation.
Second Article in the series is up for any interested:
/prophecy/2016/05/rapture-when-part-2-left-behind-2480961.html
I have been through the rapture, I will do my best to explain. Rapture has much likeness to a near death experience, where the individual envisions seeing a bright light at the end of a tunnel. In most cases this has a big and dramatic change in ones life.
My rapture was mental, I was living my past, the future and gave no thought for the now. The weight I felt on my shoulders was as heavy as a house. In a jail sell I was going to commit suicide, by hanging a little voice inside said that’s not the answer, I got on my knees and said to self, God I cant take it anymore you take it, I might ad it was the first time I was totally honest with myself. He, God as I understand him, gave me life, a board become lighter than the house I was carrying.
The human mind is much like a computer, put garbage in, garbage out. Hey I still get pop ups, Im still learning Gods will for me, one day at a time.
Anonymous,
I want to share a little personal note here and you can take it for what it’s worth. I had an experience once that led me to believe He was showing me that some of His end time apostles would be coming out of prison cells…men who had committed heinous crimes prior to Him laying hold of them.
Whatever your call turns out to be, you can be certain He will walk you into it. I believe you had a very real encounter with the living God in that cell and I am excited to ponder all that will eventually grow out of that.
Welcome home.
If things still feel a bit overwhelming at times, think on this:
Phillipians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
I cling to that verse in the seasons when I am struggling with my own rebellions and sins. It’s not about us bro. It’s not about who we are or what we can do. It’s not about the “good” we can accomplish and it’s not even about the times we fail.
It’s about Who HE is, and what He has FINISHED.
He promises to complete what He has begun in us. All we have to do is resist the temptation to run and hide from Him. Stay in His presence, and He promises to finish His finished work in us. I’m dead certain He is fully confident He can keep that promise because of His great power and love toward us.
He loves us way too much to leave us like we are
Ever heard the abbreviation KISS, stands for, Keep It Simple Stupid.
It’s actually one of the ideas underpinning my concept of this whole series I’m attempting. A very important one. Have I violated my own commitment to it somehow?
Mr. Jostler,
Thanks for posting this article. Although I disagree with a pre-trib rapture…
I’m not going to go into that now. I can see you’re drawing a bit of attention and need some time for responses. I’m sure it’s a bit overwhelming. You seem to be VERY sound on you Biblical knowledge. I am glad you posted this and would like to read more of these discussions later so I’ll bookmark this article.
Thanks again,
~Clucker
Hello Clucker,
I am very interested in hearing why you disagree with the pre-trib rapture and what your views on this is.
The Time of Jacob’s Trouble is yet to come and the people on Earth will have to endure it. Nobody just gets to float up in the sky and avoid their “test” just because they were a good little boy when things were good. We all come from different stocks and castes, but we will all have to endure the test together. You may not like that I use the term “test,” but that’s how I think of it.
Read the book of Job.
Stellar launch, Jostler. Nice trajectory.