Proving The Pre-Tribulation Rapture - Video and Study Notes - Updated
My name is Brett Creamer and I am an Adult Education Bible teacher for my church. I have decided to discuss one of the touchiest topics in the Bible; the “Rapture”. Another term that can be used is the “Catching Away” or the “Gathering”.
In this study, we will look at scripture that proves Pre-Trib is true and scripture that proves Mid-Trib and Post Trib are false. I had set out to prove Pre-trib false, but over several years of study, I have found no contradictions in the Pre-Trib theory and nothing but contradictions in the Mid and Post Trib theories. This is not my opinion, this is just simple reading of scripture.
Before I go any further with my research, I want to stress that the Pre, Mid or Post trib rapture theories do not change the message of the cross or a person’s salvation. Let me be clear… Understanding or not understand how and when we will be gathered cannot alter a person’s salvation. We are saved by putting our faith and trust in the Lord and we do not need a degree in theology for that.
This topic always brings division in the church and not just division, but violent anger over a theory that does not affect the Gospel message of Jesus Christ in the least. When I teach on this or post studies online, I am greeted with attacks from people who call themselves Christians. I post scripture, I get attacked. I post prophecy and I get insulted. I post Biblical pattern and I get ridiculed. All I can say is, where is the love of Jesus in them or their comments? Where is the Spirit of Wisdom where “iron sharpens iron”? Where is the person willing to listen to what scripture says over what they feel is right? Where is the patience and respect that Christians are supposed to have for one another? Before anyone wishes to debate me on this topic, please do so in a Christ-like manner.
Here are the contradictions I have found that need to be clarified to understand the gathering of God’s people.
Before Or After?
Why do some verses concerning the rapture say we will raise beforehand and others say we will rise afterward?
Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 “Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. 20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity”
Let’s not miss the timeline here. Here, all rise BEFORE his wrath. The scripture says God raises His people, THEN they go to their rooms (same rooms that Jesus has created for us – John 14:1-3), to not see His wrath, THEN God comes out of His dwelling place to punish. To make it clearer, the scripture says we go in, He goes out, punishment comes. Similarly, Paul said the dead in Christ will rise, then those who are alive and they will meet the Lord in the air and will forever be with Him. If someone was to say that this scripture points to another event in history, they are mistaken. There is no other time in the history of the earth from the writing of this scripture until today that God has come out of His dwelling place to punish the earth.
Luke 21:25-28 – 25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28 “But WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO TAKE PLACE, straighten up and LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, BECAUSE YOUR REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR.”
Once again, we are gathered BEFORE the trouble comes as it says, “WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO TAKE PLACE” comes the redemption. The news is constantly telling us what is coming… Asteroids, moon evens, hurricanes, El Nino, wars and rumors of wars. We are seeing these exact things beginning to take place, so we need to start looking up. People may balk at this and say that “When these things begin to take place” mean they have already taken place. This is not true and I will give you an example that illustrates this. Let’s say I told you that a tornado would hit the house while you are eating breakfast. Wouldn’t you start to look for it when I reach for the bowls, cereal and milk? That is what it means when it says “. 28 “But WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO TAKE PLACE” At the beginning, we need to take note and look up for we are about to be raptured.
On the contrary, let’s look at this verse that says the opposite:
Matthew 24:29-31 – 29 “But IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
Here we see the Lord comes IN the clouds and the ANGELS GATHERS HIS ELECT AFTER certain signs. It mentions the whole world seeing Him.
Do We Go Through His Wrath Or Not?
The whole problem with Christians being here during the Tribulation is the fact that it flies in the face of the following three verses:
Romans 8:1 – Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
If scripture says that God’s wrath will be poured out during the tribulation, that means we are not to be here for His wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 – For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Once again, we are not to be here for His wrath.
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 – 9 “…and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.”
It doesn’t get any clearer than this. He rescues us “from”, meaning “before” the wrath comes. If we were not collected by god ustil the end, He would be doing a pretty bad job of rescuing us.
On the contrary, here we see clearly that some group of people are gathered after the signs:
Matthew 24:29-31 – 29 “But IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
Here we see the Lord comes IN the clouds AFTER certain signs.
Does He Come For Us Or With Us?
Many of the above verses show an event where the Lord gathers His people after the tribulation happens. Not so with the passages below.
Zechariah 14:4-5 – 4 “In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and ALL THE HOLY ONES WITH HIM!”
Take note of the last sentence. His Holy ones will come back with Him. It does not say He comes back and gathers or that He meets His Holy ones in the air, it says He comes back with us which shows we were with Him.
Revelation 19:14 – The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (to clarify, Rev 19:8 – “Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.”)
In Revelation 19:14, we also see the saints coming down from Heaven with Him. That means we are in Heaven before the Lord comes back to bring His final wrath upon the earth. According to the Post-Tribbers, the saints do not get raptured until He comes back. This is clearly a problem to their theory. The rapture cannot come at the end when the Lord comes back because Revelation 19 is very clear that the armies of Heaven (the holy ones) are with Him when He returns to fight on earth.
Who Gathers Us?
Since we follow a God of order and clarity, I would assume that His plans would be clear cut in every instance of a particular topic. Let me show you what I mean.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 – “16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.”
Here we see the Lord comes TO the clouds and HE HIMSELF GATHERS us. It does not mention the whole world seeing Him.
Mark 13:24-27 – 24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27 “And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.”
Here we see the Lord comes IN the clouds and the ANGELS GATHERS HIS ELECT after certain signs. It mentions the whole world seeing Him.
Why Are There Humans In Revelation 4?
Revelation chapters 2-3 shows that Jesus gave a full description of the church ages, then, He takes John to Heaven and we see humans there. If it is not Pre-trib, then why are there humans in Revelation chapters 4, 5 and 6 and 7? The humans we see in chapter 4 are wearing crowns, white garments and are sitting on thrones. These are attributes of Saints who will be in Heaven with Him. Examples:
Matthew 19:28 — “Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Saints will have thrones.
2 Timothy 4:8 – “Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day–and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing”
Saints will have crowns.
1 Corinthians 6:2-3 – 2 “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!”
Here we see that the saints judge. In Revelation 5, they are also singing a song that says that they were redeemed by the blood of Jesus.
Revelation 5:8-9 – 8 “And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And have made us unto our God a kingdom and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”
I think it is clear that these people in Heaven have been “raptured” or “caught up” to meet the Lord in Revelation chapter 4 because no human can be in Heaven until He calls them up to Himself:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – 16 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.”
Now, there are other believers found in Heaven:
Revelation 6:9-11 – 9 “When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.”
Revelation 7:9-10 – 9 “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
Revelation 7: 14 – “I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
So clearly by Revelation 7, we see people have been pulled out of the Tribulation. This would negate the mid/post trib arguments. These people were only given white robes, but no crowns or thrones.
Also, there are clear distinct groups in Heaven as far as our standing:
Revelation 11:18 – “And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Notice there are 3 distinct gatherings of people groups: bondservants, prophetsand saints.
No Man Knows the Day or Hour
The Bible says that “No man knows the day or hour that God will return”. If that is the case, then the day the two witnesses start preaching at the temple, anyone could count for 3.5 years and then get raptured in the middle of the Tribulation. The same concept would work with a post Tribulation theory. Jesus gave us markers and dates all throughout the Book of Revelation, so it would be easy to pinpoint with complete accuracy the date of the rapture. If it is pre-trib at Rev. 4, then no one could possible know the day or hour.
There Would Be No Time
According to what we just read, the church cannot be taken away until the Anti-Christ is revealed. How could this possibly work with a Post-Trib theory?
If you think we are post-trib, then that would give him one day to do all his evil work at the end of the 7 years of Tribulation. This cannot be true because scripture clearly points to his actions all through the Book of Revelation. If his revealing happened in Mid-Trib, once again he could not bring peace to Israel for 3.5 years and then persecute the Christians and Israelites for another 3.5 years. This flies in the face of the timeline in the Book of Revelation. The Anti-Christ has to be revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation and that means that we are raptured at the beginning when he comes out. He is the false “Christ” on the white horse in Revelation 6. He comes with a bow (a covenant).
There is no way that the Rapture of the church could take place at the Mid-point or End-point of the Tribulation. The answer lies in the following verses:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 – 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
According to what we just read, the church cannot be taken away until the Anti-Christ is revealed. How could this possibly work with a Post-Trib theory? That would give him one day to do all his evil work at the end of the 7 years of Tribulation. If his revealing happened in Mid-Trib, once again he could not bring peace to Israel for 3.5 years and then persecute the Christians and Israelites for another 3.5 years. This flies in the face of the timeline in the Book of Revelation. The Anti-Christ has to be revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation and that means that we are raptured when he comes out. We already see this when the rider on the white horse in Revelation chapter 6:
Revelation 6:1-2 – (1 – White Horse) – 1 Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come.” 2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
After Jesus breaks the 1st seal of the scroll, John is told to look upon a scene in Heaven that is about to unfold on earth. The picture is a man on a white horse and he is wearing a crown. Due to the crown and white horse, many think this is Jesus. We can quickly disprove that due to the type of crown he is wearing. In the Greek, the type of crown is called a “stephanos”:
The Greek word (#4735) stephanos – properly, a wreath (garland), awarded to a victor in the ancient athletic games (like the Greek Olympics); the crown of victory
If this was truly the Lord, he would be wearing a “diadema” (A royal crown.)
The Greek word (#1238) diádēma – properly, a royal crown: “a narrow filet encircling the brow,” a “kingly ornament for the head” (R. Trench, 78). (Revelation 19:12 – “His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems”)
The other riders in seals 2 & 4 had swords and it tells of their killing, but this is different.
This rider is carrying a bow, but his intent is not to kill, it is to take over. Interestingly, the word “bow” is the same word used in “rain-bow”, which was God’s covenant to us.
So, who would be awarded a crown, appear to be the Messiah and would come with an agreement of some sort? This rider is giving us the impression that the anti-Christ is now coming on the scene. There are two passages of scripture that show how the anti-Christ will rise in power, will consider himself superior and will be driven to take over and control the people (Daniel 7:24-25 & Daniel 8:23-25)
Another dead give-away that this is not the Lord is the fact that Matthew 24 showed us that the first stage of troubles to come is people masquerading as Jesus.
Matthew 24:4-5 – 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.
The anti-Christ will deceive the world into thinking he is the Messiah through false signs and miracles. This brings a time of peace as the “white-horse” projects, but it will be a false peace.
Some say that is not the Anti-Christ, but it has to be. A man does not suddenly show up on the scene in one day and proclaim himself to be the new world leader. He must work the crowds and the system to gather the people to himself. Look how long it took Obama to woo the crowds to himself and that was only for one country. The Anti-Christ comes on the scene in Revelation 4 to start the ball rolling.
Why Would Jesus Talk About Rooms And Doors?
Why would Jesus talk about rooms and shutting the door behind us if we were destined to wait for Him to come back? Now, scriptures clearly show that the Rapture is at chapter 4, but let’s look at other verses that clearly work hand in hand with this picture.
John 14:2-3 – 2 “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
Matthew 25:1-13 – 1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ 7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ 9 “ ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’ 12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
Why is it in Matt 25, you see 10 virgins waiting for the Lord to come back, but 5 are taken to a room? Because Jesus was giving us a picture of the rapture of His believers. The other 5 virgins thought they were going but they were not prepared and were left behind. Those that are left behind must go through THE Tribulation. These are the people the mid/post-tribbers see when they are saying the church must go through The Tribulation.
God is a God of patterns
God is a God of patterns. He is consistent in the fact that He has always warns and helps His people in times of trouble. He also rescues His people from His wrath by removing them from the situation.
1) God removing Enoch from the earth that had become so wicked and before God’s wrath to come.
2) Noah and his family were isolated from the world and rose above the earth (by water) so he would not have to endure God’s wrath upon the earth. God himself shut the door to the ark, just like he shut the door in Matthew 25, Luke 13 and Isaiah 26.
3 )Jonah’s warning saved Nineveh from utter destruction.
4) Angels forcibly removed Lot and his family from Sodom. He told them to leave the area, He did not promise to protect them where they were.
5) God used Joseph who saved all God’s people and even the gentiles people from starvation.
6) The Israelites were protected from God’s wrath against Egypt. Not only did God have the Israelites strategically placed away from the Egyptians (in their rooms), none of the plagues that struck Egypt proper affected them.
God protected Daniel in the Lion’s Den.
7) Jesus warned the Christians to leave Jerusalem when they see it surrounded by armies.
8) God warned of a coming famine in the Book of Acts that got people to send gifts to Jerusalem.
9) God warned the Jews that they need to flee when they see the Anti-Christ. He told them to leave the area and go to a special place called Petra. He did not promise to protect them where they were. Petra is similar to a room as it was carved out of a mountain.
10) Jesus warned us of God’s coming wrath and how to escape it.
In all of those examples, we see God separating His people from either trouble or wrath. When it comes to the end, Isaiah 26 shows us that God put people in their own rooms and the doors are shut behind them to protect them from God’s wrath.
As you can see, God is a God of consistency. He always protects us. He has never allowed His people to go through His wrath.
Conclusion:
As an overview of all that we have learned, let’s look at God’s plan.
1) You have Jesus’s act on the cross.
2) After He returns to Heaven, you have the gospel spread. You have people who believe in him BY FAITH. They are not coerced and they did not see any signs. They become followers of Jesus and are part of the church.
3) Now, God has been waiting for close to 2000 to gather as many faithful followers as will come to Him. The end times approach. Things get awful bad. God has to remove his faithful followers so the Anti-Christ can come out and heap even more trouble on the earth. That is why the Bible says that we are not destined for wrath. This is why it says in Isaiah 26 that we are taken up to be hidden from God’s wrath. Next, we are raptured (protected from His wrath).
4) Now, the real trouble starts. People start to remember what they were told in Sunday school and people start to believe again. These people do not believe by faith, they are believing by sight because everyone disappeared and the end time prophecies are happening right in front of their eyes. Everything they were told to look for is happening all around them and they have no choice but to believe. Those are the ones who will not accept the Anti-Christ and they will be be-headed.
5) There are clearly two distinct different groups of people in Heaven as detailed in Revelation. There some people in Heaven that get thrones and crowns (Rev. 4) but later as the Tribulation advances, there are those with no thrones and no crowns (Rev. 7). That is because those who are taken to Heaven after the rapture are now direct servants of the Lord Most High.
Rev 7:15 – Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
Again, notice they are not on thrones as you saw in Rev 4 and they do not have crowns on. These are different believers.
The confusion in the Post-trib theory is that most people take all verses that deals with the end of days and lump them all together on one page and claim it is the same event. This is incorrect. We clearly see in scripture that the Lord comes to gather His people in one event and physically comes to the earth in a separate event:
He comes once for His true believers when we meet him in the air:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
The other is when he comes back (to the physical earth), lands in Jerusalem and begins his battle.
Zechariah 14:4-5 – 4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib or Post-Trib? The scriptures are clear, but no matter what proof one can have, this question will still divide the church. In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn’t change the gospel or all our calling. What this whole study does, is remind us that the Lord can come at any time. In the Hebrew template for marriage, the father of the groom says “Go get your bride”. Just like that template, one day God will tell Jesus to go and collect all the bride at once. Are you ready right now to meet the Lord in the air? Let’s look at one last verse:
Ephesians 5:25-27 - 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
Notice that in verse 2 it says that we will be presented to Him without spot or wrinkle, holy and blameless. Are we striving for that in our lives right now? We need to purify and prepare ourselves just like the bride is patterned to do. We need to live each moment in hopeful expectation, reflecting the Light of the World. We need to diligently seek Him with all we have so when He comes, we will know Him and He will know us.
God bless!
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Whistler Blowers, Insiders
I thought the wrath of God is not poured out until the end of the Book of Revelation?
The wrath is started in Revelation chapter 6:
Revelation 6:16-17 – “For the great day of the wrath of the Lamb is come, and who shall be able to stand?”
Tragically countless people think there are 25,000 different “Christianities”.
Below are Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures that there is … in fact and in truth … only *one* Christianity.
- – - – - – - – - -
Catholic writing of Philippians 2:2 >
“Fulfill ye my joy, that you may be of **one** mind, having the same charity, being of one accord.”
Catholic writing of 1 Corinthians 1:10 >
“Now I beseech you … that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the **same mind**.”
Catholic writing of Philippians 4:2 >
“Be of **one** mind in the Lord.”
Catholic writing of Ephesians 4:5
“One Lord, **one** Faith, one Baptism.”
Catholic writing of Romans 15:6 >
“That with **one** mind, and with one mouth, you may glorify God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Catholic writing of 2 Corinthians 13:11 >
“For the rest, brethren, rejoice, be perfect, take exhortation, be of **one** mind.”
Catholic writing in Acts of the Apostles 1:14 >
“All these were persevering with **one** mind.”
*WHY* … do countless people gloss over and ignore citations … like the above, when it costs you your immortal soul ?
It makes no sense whatsoever.
Do you see … now … there is only one Christianity ? Good.
I list more “one Christianity” Scriptures at > > http://www.Gods-Catholic-Dogma.com/section_8.4.html
- – - – - – - – - -
C A U T I O N: The Catholic Church has had *zero* … physical properties, priests, and bishops since 8 December 1965 … because of the Sources of Dogma on automatic excommunication for heresy.
Mountains of proof > http://www.Gods-Catholic-Dogma.com/section_12.html
Photographic proof > http://www.Gods-Catholic-Dogma.com/section_13.html
(We have to admit … *photographic* proof of heresy and apostasy *is* compelling)
Abjuration of heresy to become Christian > http://www.Gods-Catholic-Dogma.com/section_19.1.html
(Abjuration takes about 45 minutes)
Matthew 19:30
Proverbs 21:24
I always saw that Isaiah 16 verse as the one that proved pre trib easily.
Yea, me too!
I use that in Pre-Trib debates all the time and no one has an answer for me, nor can they show me where I am wrong. God bless!
Right on brother! Good commentary! So many bad teachers out there!
Hey thanks! God bless!
I was taught that Revelations was not in order. How can you be sure that your timeline is accurate?
It is in chronological order. Jesus told John in Revelation 1:
Revelation 1:19 – “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
That is an order. Jesus gives an overview of the 7 churches and they also match up prophetically with the 7 church ages. Chapter 4 says:
Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven,
He is saying after the church ages, then comes… That is an order.
Also, that is why Jesus told the the order of events in Matt 24:
Matthew 24:4-9 – 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and
hate each other,
That comes right out of the mouth of Jesus and it lines up perfectly with the seals. Then, in the 7th seal, you then get 7 trumpet judgments. Then, it rolls right into the next set of judgments and so on. You have a beginning and an end of the entire book. If it was not in chronological order, you would have Jesus returning with His bride in Revelation 12.
Also, think about the pattern God has given us in Revelation and Genesis: Study the order of the main events of Genesis and then compare them to the events of Revelation. As an example: Genesis starts with beautiful paradise and no sin. Revelation ends in a beautiful paradise with no sin. In the garden, a deceiver comes to temp and lie to His people. In Revelation, a deceiver comes to temp and lie to His people. etc… You will see that revelation is Genesis in reverse!
The Book of Joshua is in order. It also lines up with the Book of Revelation. God is a God of patterns.
Joshua means “the LORD (Jehova) is Salvation” vs. The name Joshua in the Greek is “Jesus”
Rahab the harlot (a gentile) is saved from destruction vs. Believers in Christ are saved from
destruction
Priests carrying ark (seat of God) before the people vs. In Heaven, we stand before the throne
Priests stand in river & water stops vs. We, as priests are standing on a sea of glass
The Israelites must be circumcised before entering vs. Believers must be circumcised of the
heart before entering
The Lord shows up to take over the battle vs. The Lord shows up to take the scroll (title deed)
7 days of marching vs. 7 years of the tribulation
7 trumpets, then the walls fall down vs. 7 trumpets which bring tribulation and judgment
Jericho is destroyed vs. 1/3 of Earth is destroyed
King Adoni-Zedek of Jerusalem “Lord of Righteousness” vs. The antichrist call himself god from
God’s temple in Jerusalem
The Israelites are facing 7 nations (were 10) vs. Seven kingdoms of the beast and he will rule over 10 kings
Days are not long enough for Joshua vs. The days are shortened for the elect
There are supernatural signs in sun, moon and stars vs. There are supernatural signs in
sun, moon and stars
The kings run and hide in caves vs. The kings hid in the caves and
among the rocks
The Amorites were defeated at Beth Horon vs. The world’s armies are defeated at Armageddon (Beth Horon)
The jubilee year starts when the conquest is over vs. The millennial reign starts when the battle is over
You say it in not in order but it is.
By the way, it is the Book of Revelation, not Revelations…
The correct, original name of the New Testament’s last book is “The Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle.”
APOKALYPSIS IOANNOU
…is the title of the ORIGINAL text, Louis.
Your Vulgate and its translated variants came later.
Neither the word ‘saint’ nor the word ‘apostle’ appear anywhere in the original title.
Fact.
BS — I said the last book of the NT is the Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle.
You said the same thing in Greek — “The Apocalypse of John.”
Other than the fact that you’re a pseudo-intellectual fraud, what’s the problem?
The keyword here is “Apocalypse” versus “Revelations,” the former being a more accurate translation than the latter. Did that go over your head?
“Your Vulgate and its translated variants came later.” What does that mean besides nothing? Supremely redundant.
Very well then. A lesson for Louis:
If you became as zealous with your own language as you are with concocting Catholic apologetics, you might actually begin to learn something useful to you. Now pay close attention.
You wrote:
“The correct, original name of the New Testament’s last book is “The Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle.””
Then I corrected you with the ACTUAL original name of the Book, as opposed to only an embellished Catholic translation of it, which is:
ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ
Now you can argue all day that the Greek says what you say it does, but you’re wrong. You’re wrong for the reasons I already explained to you and will not be repeating. A LITERAL translation of those TWO Greek words does not result in the error you have presented as the “[t]he correct, original name of the New Testament’s last book”.
You wrote:
“The keyword here is “Apocalypse” versus “Revelations”…”
First of all, I will correct you again – you mean to say ‘Revelation’ and not ‘Revelations’, as Discreet Prepper has already established. Second, I would remind you to be more careful when correcting someone; especially when he doing the correcting is as bombastic and dictatorial as you are. That is to say Louis, if you’re going to correct someone, do a better job at making certain you’re right. Which you rarely are. And third, in response to my comment:
“Your Vulgate and its translated variants came later.”
…you wrote:
“What does that mean besides nothing? Supremely redundant.”
What it means is this, your highness:
ALL Catholic renditions of New Testament Scripture are TRANSLATIONS from original Greek Manuscripts that have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the Church of Rome, except to assail and to denounce the Church of Rome. The English word ‘revelation’ is a perfectly acceptable translation of the Greek word ‘ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ.’ So stop pretending that because a thing is Catholic, a thing must therefore be better. As a Catholic arguing Scripture with non-Catholic Bible-believers, you argue from the inferior position. Always.
Here endeth the lesson.
BS — all that bombast over a typo?
The Catholic (only reliable and unabridged) translation of the Bible was made by St. Jerome (a Catholic scholar of ancient languages) who translated the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts into Latin. This is called the Latin Vulgate.
The first translation of the NT from the Latin Vulgate to English was made in 1582 and of the OT in 1609 and 1610. These are called the Douay and Douay-Rheims editions. That’s the edition I quoted from.
The correct name of the last book of the NT is [The] Apocalypse of [St.] John [the Apostle.]
To say — as you did — that the Catholic Church has nothing to do with the Bible is stupidest thing any mortal man has ever said since the dawn of time.
It’s the Catholic Church alone which has been entrusted by God to translate the Written Word.
Your translations of the Written Word are less than useless as well as abominable.
“…all that bombast over a typo?”
First of all hooplehead, I already called you bombastic. Get your own damn insulting word. Like ‘hackanapse.’ There. I just invented a new one for you. But more importantly – what does this have to do with typos? You ADDED words to the original title of the Book, and pretended to correct a man who called it something other than what you called it. His correction was correct and appropriate. Yours was inaccurate and erroneous. You didn’t make a typo Louis. You gave out bad information.
“The Catholic (only reliable and unabridged) translation…”
Reliable and unabridged according to WHOSE metric, Louis? We have Manuscripts and Papyri dating back to the SECOND century. Thus, this matter is easily resolved and we need not resort to opinion to resolve it. Your Catholic translations STRAY from the original Manuscripts. You can verify this just as easily as I can. This is yet another aspect of Catholicism for which you apologists have no meaningful answer. You change Scripture. By whose authority do you change Scripture and what is the source for that authority? You will never be able to answer these questions legitimately. It is on this very point that all of Catholic doctrine and dogma comes crashing to the floor – at once recognizable for exactly what it is: Some OTHER gospel. (See the Apostle Paul about that.)
“…the (Catholic) Bible was made by St. Jerome (a Catholic scholar of ancient languages) who translated the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts into Latin. This is called the Latin Vulgate.”
Thanks for the lesson, Lou. You know who else was a ‘scholar of ancient languages? Zechariah Sitchin. He too played fast-and-loose with the texts and he too propagated an illegitimate narrative. I know who Jerome was. He was an agent of the Roman Rite. That means he had a motive to make his TRANSLATION agree with Roman policy and doctrine. He had some OTHER gospel to preach. Go compare the Vulgate version of Genesis 3:15 to ALL of the extant Manuscripts – and we have at our disposal the same material Jerome had at his. In fact, we have MORE of it today than he had. Jerome lied. Or check out the FACT that Jerome ERRONEOUSLY recorded that King Saul was ONE YEAR OLD when he became king of Israel. That’s some tall one year old to stand head and shoulders above the rest of Israel. That’s some one year old to be out hunting lost animals with his friends, and bumping into prophets. This is the kind of nonsense that your Popes have declared infallible. And rather than look reality in the face, you’ll thrown in with the Popes because you are a lover of false gospels.
1 Kings 13:1
(in Protestant Bibles, 1 Samuel 13:1)
THUS SAYETH JEROME:
filius unius anni Saul cum regnare coepisset duobus autem annis regnavit super
Douay translation of Jerome:
Saul was a child of one year when he began to reign, and he reigned two years over Israel.
Let he who has ears, hear.
“The first translation of the NT from the Latin Vulgate to English was made in 1582 and of the OT in 1609 and 1610. These are called the Douay and Douay-Rheims editions. That’s the edition I quoted from.”
Thanks again for the lesson. Do you really think I need it? I have the Vulgate and the Douay Version literally within reach from where I presently sit and address you. I don’t care what you ‘quoted’ from. You misrepresented the Catholic version as being the original. Which it most certainly is not. You’re not honest, Louis. No Catholic apologist is.
“The correct name of the last book of the NT is [The] Apocalypse of [St.] John [the Apostle.]”
Call it whatever you want. I’ll call it what the AUTHOR of the Book called it. ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ. THAT is the correct name of the Book. All other names for it are versions; they are translations. We already have to add two English words to the Greek in order to make proper sense of it in our language: THE and OF. That’s all we’re really required to add. You add five words.
“To say — as you did — that the Catholic Church has nothing to do with the Bible is stupidest thing any mortal man has ever said since the dawn of time.”
The Catholic Church has plenty to do with the Bible, Louis. Your Church is spoken of in Scripture. And do you know what? God hates your Church almost as much as He hates The People of His Curse. In fact, God calls your Church a ‘smoke in His nose.’ Now if you think that’s the ‘stupidest thing any mortal man has said since the dawn of time’… Well, I guess we can add that to the list of things you let spill out of your mouth that have no actual basis in truth. But you will learn.
“It’s the Catholic Church alone which has been entrusted by God to translate the Written Word.”
Right, Louis. Says who? The Catholic Church. Uh huh. And WHERE is their authority for this claim? Upon WHAT source of authority do they rest this bold proclamation? They have NO SOURCE upon which to rest their false boasts of authenticity. And you have no reason for believing their lies, apart from their pretty costumes, marble columns and stained glass.
“Your translations of the Written Word are less than useless as well as abominable.”
Who told you I’m reading anything in translation, Louis?
BS — I know better than to argue with mindless bigots , and that goes double for long-winded mindless bigots.
BEEF SAYS ” GOD HATES YOUR CHURCH ” , AND GET YOUR OWN DAMN INSULTING WORD.
JESUS says ” And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
(Matthew 18:16-17)
Jesus says: ” I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Hebrews : 2: 11-12 For both he that sanctifieth, and they who are sanctified , are all of one. For which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren , saying :
I will declare thy name to my brethren ; in the midst of the church I will praise thee.
ΟΙΚΟΔΟΜΗΣΩ ΜΟΥ ΤΗΝ ΕΚΚΛΗΣΙΑΝ
If there’s something in there about the Roman Rite, I will eat my hat if you tell me what it is.
And don’t think I’ll be the only one to notice that neither of you has any answer at all for where Rome gets its (self-proclaimed) authority to ALTER the Word of God as it suits their purposes.
Answer that one little question, and Rome will have the upper hand for all of its future apologetic discourses. Of course it will never happen. They can’t answer it. Neither can you. Either one of you. What you can do is distract and launch platitudes. So that’s what you do.
Very well, gentlemen.
“He who has ear let him hear what the spirit says to the churches”
Revelation 2:7
2:11
2:17
2:21
3:6
3:13
3:22
Mattrick,
You can duck my points until you turn blue. What good does it do you?
Does the Greek word ΕΚΚΛΗΣΙΑΝ mean what Rome says it does? Have you looked it up? What is it really all about?
But more importantly – have you ANYTHING to answer for the question of Rome’s authority, so-called? Have you ANYTHING to answer for the outrageous mistake Jerome made when he translated 1 Kings 13:1 from the Greek? Have you ANYTHING to answer for the Council of Trent which subsequently declared Jerome’s work infallible?
From the Council of Trent:
“Moreover, the same holy council considering that not a little advantage will accrue to the Church of God if it be made known which of all the Latin editions of the sacred books now in circulation is to be regarded as authentic, ordains and declares that the old Latin Vulgate Edition, which, in use for so many hundred years, has been approved by the Church, be in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions held as authentic, AND THAT NO ONE DARE OR PRESUME UNDER ANY PRETEXT WHATSOEVER TO REJECT IT.”
I have dared, Mattrick. I reject the Vulgate in its entirety as a concoction which very cleverly conceals the teaching of another Gospel.
I jumped in here when you spoke for God saying ” God hates your church almost as much as the people of his curse, in fact, God calls your church a smoke in his nose”
so if that was me saying those words against any other christian group, you would jump all over me, and ask for scripture and verse.
am I wrong on that?
I replied with scriptures, above and below this reply box, I don’t see the fruit of the spirit shining through many of your replies, I do see much knowledge in the written word, and zeal for it.
on authority, all authority was given to Jesus , in Heaven, and on Earth. and it comes to individuals through the holy spirit, that Jesus promised to send to us, the laying on of hands is important ( I’ve seen you say this yourself)
Proverbs 8:13 -15 The fear of the Lord hateth evil: I hate arrogance, and pride, and every wicked way, and a mouth with a double tongue
Counsel and equity is mine, prudence is mine, strength is mine.
By me kings reign, and lawgivers decree just things.
By me princes rule, and the mighty decree justice.
Matthew 28: 16-20 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
And seeing him they adored: but some doubted.
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying : all power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
Daniel 2:19 -22 Then was the mystery revealed to Daniel by a vision in the night: and Daniel blessed the God of heaven,
And speaking he said: Blessed be the name of the Lord from eternity and for evermore: for wisdom and fortitude are his.
And he changeth times and ages: taketh away kingdoms and establisheth them, giveth wisdom to the wise, and knowledge to them that have understanding.
He revealeth deep and hidden things, and knoweth what is in darkness: and light is with him.
1 Thessalonians 13-14 Therefore , we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but ( as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.
For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own countrymen, even as they have from the Jews.
Psalm 26:12 My foot hath stood in the direct way: in the churches I will bless thee,O Lord.
Psalm 22: 22 and 68: 26
1 Corinthians 15: 9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1 Corinthians 11: 18,27-29 For first of all I hear that when you come together in the church, there are schisms among you; and in part I believe it.
27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord .
28 Bu let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
Jeremiah 23: 18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the lord, and hath seen and heard his word? Who hath considered his word and heard it?
as far as all the problems with the catholic church, I could add a few of my own.
“I jumped in here when you spoke for God saying ” God hates your church almost as much as the people of his curse, in fact, God calls your church a smoke in his nose…”
I’m often angry and hasty, Mattrick. If I was more like Messiah or Paul I wouldn’t be as abrasive as I am, even when I try not to be. That’s my failure – one of them.
“…so if that was me saying those words against any other christian group, you would jump all over me, and ask for scripture and verse. am I wrong on that?”
You are wrong about that. I don’t defend Christianity. Any of it. I only advocate for what is written, and the Protestant Church is almost as far afield from the Word as the Catholic Church.
“I replied with scriptures, above and below this reply box, I don’t see the fruit of the spirit shining through many of your replies, I do see much knowledge in the written word, and zeal for it.”
And again, I sometimes get carried away with my zeal for what I think I know – which is exactly what the Pharisees did. I know better. But at times I opt to let my anger guide my pen. Sometimes I get called on it, like now.
“…on authority, all authority was given to Jesus , in Heaven, and on Earth. and it comes to individuals through the holy spirit, that Jesus promised to send to us, the laying on of hands is important ( I’ve seen you say this yourself)…”
When I was a Catholic I attended a traditionalist Saint Pius the Xth congregation. I saw that many of the people who attended that Church were as sincere as people get in their love for Messiah. But what Catholics very often neglect is prudent study of the Word – that is study as prescribed by the Scriptures themselves – whereby we might see that most of what is written is inimical to what Rome teaches. This is a problem. I do however believe there are sincere religious Catholics who live by faith. But they cannot follow Messiah wherever He leads, because they have the teachings and traditions of Rome obscuring their vision and clouding their spiritual hearing.
You quote from Matthew 28:16-20. Matthew 28:19, as it exists today even in Manuscript form, is a corruption of the original version, which did nothing to bolster the doctrine of the Trinity. ALL overt references in Scripture to the Trinity have been added late. This we can prove. The Comma Johanneum was added in the 1500’s. That is very late indeed. But Matthew 28:19 was altered much earlier than that – toward the end of the second century. Again, this can be proven.
“…as far as all the problems with the catholic church, I could add a few of my own.”
You are far from the average Catholic, Mattrick. You are well-tempered and well-read in the Scriptures. This is a rarity. Louis is well-read in Scripture, but is most disagreeably disposed in temperament. Cyberkahuna likewise knows a bit about the Word, but he argues passionately, fueled mainly by emotion. I regret offending you, friend. I doubt Rome. I don’t doubt you. And I owe it to you as a fellow seeker after the Way to make sure I draw that distinction firmly in my mind in the future.
MR. BEEF, this is non- thread related, mostly? I came across a verse that needed more digging
and taking your advice to search deeper into the word.
I hit on the Greek and the Strong’s and came up with 2320.
while it does not say “trinity” it does say triune.
Only one occurrence
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally;
And you are filled in him, who is the head of all principality and power.
we lost mister a-z again, so responding here.
could e-mail but not sure on that yet?
any more thoughts on colossians 2:9?
I hope you keep strong with your zeal for the word here on BIN
because it is needed, I have little patience left, and i am a short timer, greenhorn even.
peace brother
Strong’s 2320
theótēs (a feminine noun derived from 2316 /theós, “God”) – the personal God revealed in the Bible who is triune and infinitely relational as demonstrated by the embodiment of the Godhead in the incarnated Christ (used only in Col 2:9).
Maybe this will help
——
Theotokos (/ˌθiːɵˈtɒkəs/; Greek: Θεοτόκος, transliterated (Greek) Theotókos, translation (Syriac-Aramaic): ܝܳܠܕܰܬ ܐܰܠܳܗܳܐ, transliterated (Syriac): Yoldath Alloho) is the Greek title of Mary, the mother of Jesus used especially in the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Eastern Catholic Churches. Its literal English translations include “God-bearer”, “Birth-Giver of God” and “the one who gives birth to God.” Less accurate translations include the primarily Western title “Mother of God” (Latin: Mater Dei).[a]
The ancient use of this term is emphasised in Churches of the Syriac Tradition, which have been using this title in their ancient liturgies for centuries: the Anaphora of Mari and Addai (3rd Century),[1][2] and the Liturgy of St James the Just (4th Century).[3][4] The Council of Ephesus decreed in 431 that Mary is Theotokos because her son Jesus is both God and man: one Divine Person with two natures (Divine and human) intimately, hypostatically united.[5][6]
Roman Catholics and Anglicans use the title “Mother of God” more often than “Theotokos”. Lutherans also venerated and honored Mary as “Mother of God” as expressed by its founder, Martin Luther;[7] the title was officially confessed in their Formula of Concord,[8] accepted by Lutheran World Federation.
Mattrick wrote:
“I hit on the Greek and the Strong’s and came up with 2320. while it does not say “trinity” it does say triune.”
I find nothing whatsoever about THAY-OT-ACE meaning ‘triune’ except in the commentary from HELPS Word Studies: “…the personal God revealed in the Bible who is triune and infinitely relational…”
That’s not definitive; that is commentary. A Trinitarian may not insert concepts like ‘triune’ into definitions without violating Scriptural principles. One very important Scriptural principle would be the principle of confirming witness. If HELPS WS wants to make a claim like that, then they owe confirming witness for it. That’s not only Torah, its New Testament doctrine as well:
2 Corinthians 13:1
In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established…
The concept of a Trinity does not exist in any of the Greek Manuscripts. Matthew 28:19 and the Comma Johanneum are late additions to the Manuscripts, and provably so.
Liddell-Scott-Jones Definitions
θεότης, ητος, ἡ,
divinity, divine nature, Colossians 2:9, Plu. 2.359d, Luc. Icar. 9, etc.; διὰ θεότητα for religious reasons, Heliod. ap. Orib. 50.7.1.
Thayer’s Definition
1. deity 1. the state of being God, Godhead
Thayer’s Expanded Definition
θεότης, θεότητος, ἡ (deitas, Tertullian, Augustine (de civ. Dei 7,1)), deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead: Colossians 2:9. (Lucian, Icar. 9; Plutarch, de defect. orac. 10, p. 415c.) [SYNONYMS: θεότης, θειότης: θεότης deity differs from θειότης divinity, as essence differs from quality or attribute; cf. Trench, § ii.; Lightfoot or Meyer on Colossians , the passage cited; Fritzsche on Romans 1:20.]
You use 2 Timothy 4:8 – Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day…. Rev 11:18 says, “…The nations were filled with wrath, but now the time of your wrath has come. It is time to judge the dead and reward your servants the prophets, as well as your holy people, and all who fear your name…”
Here is the time in Rev that the Bible says He gives reward. You assume that reward is given before this time by trying to read into something that is not there. The Bible interprets itself. I say this in love and not to be argumentative. If this is wrong please explain why it is wrong and use scripture to show why it is wrong, not some interpretation of what you “think” scripture says.
In the Greek we see that there are two different words that have to be understood to interpret the context of the scripture.
2 Tim 4:8 – in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing. (2 Tim 4:8 – uses the term “will award”)
591 apodidómi: to give up, give back, return, restore
Original Word: ἀποδίδωμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apodidómi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-od-eed’-o-mee)
Short Definition: I give back, return, sell
Definition: (a) I give back, return, restore, (b) I give, render, as due, (c) mid: I sell.
Here Paul is saying we as Saints who believed by faith will receive what is ours… Our crowns. Because we are citizens of Heaven and we have been declared to be Kings and Priests with the Lord.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rev. 11:18 – “And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.” (Rev. 11:18 – uses the word “reward”)
3408 misthos: wages, hire
Original Word: μισθός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: misthos
Phonetic Spelling: (mis-thos’)
Short Definition: wages, reward
Definition: (a) pay, wages, salary, (b) reward, recompense, punishment.
Here, the reward that is spoken of is what we have earned as far as our service to the Lord. 1 Corinthians speaks of this:
1 Corinthians 3:12-14 – 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
Great job!
Than you very much! God bless!
My pastor teaches that we will go through the rapture. This article is truly eye opening. I never heard it like this. I’m going to study it and talk it over with my pastor.
If you have any questions, please ask! You can email me at [email protected]. God bless!
You said the 24 elders are Christian saints that have been raptured. How can you prove this?
Here we see humans in Heaven wearing crowns, white garments and are sitting on thrones. All of the following verses back this up: Matthew 19:28 — (Saints will have thrones) 2 Timothy 4:8 – (Saints will receive Crowns) 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 – (Saints judge)
The 24 thrones are a representation of all believers. Here is where God gave us an example of this in Scripture:
1 Chronicles 24:1-31 – 1 Now the divisions of the descendants of Aaron were these: the sons of Aaron were Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar. 2 But Nadab and Abihu died before their father and had no sons. So Eleazar and Ithamar served as priests. 3 David, with Zadok of the sons of Eleazar and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, divided them according to their offices for their ministry. 4 Since more chief men were found from the descendants of Eleazar than the descendants of Ithamar, they divided them thus: there were sixteen heads of fathers’ households of the descendants of Eleazar and eight of the descendants of Ithamar, according to their fathers’ households.
5 Thus they were divided by lot, the one as the other; for they were officers of the sanctuary and officers of God, both from the descendants of Eleazar and the descendants of Ithamar. 6 Shemaiah, the son of Nethanel the scribe, from the Levites, recorded them in the presence of the king, the princes, Zadok the priest, Ahimelech the son of Abiathar, and the heads of the fathers’ households of the priests and of the Levites; one father’s household taken for Eleazar and one taken for Ithamar. 7 Now the first lot came out for Jehoiarib, the second for Jedaiah, 8 the third for Harim, the fourth for Seorim, 9 the fifth for Malchijah, the sixth for Mijamin, 10the seventh for Hakkoz, the eighth for Abijah, 11 the ninth for Jeshua, the tenth for Shecaniah, 12 the eleventh for Eliashib, the twelfth for Jakim, 13the thirteenth for Huppah, the fourteenth for Jeshebeab, 14 the fifteenth for Bilgah, the sixteenth for Immer, 15 the seventeenth for Hezir, the eighteenth for Happizzez, 16 the nineteenth for Pethahiah, the twentieth for Jehezkel, 17 the twenty-first for Jachin, the twenty-second for Gamul, 18 the twenty-third for Delaiah, the twenty-fourth for Maaziah.
19 These were their offices for their ministry when they came in to the house of the LORD according to the ordinance given to them through Aaron their father, just as the LORD God of Israel had commanded him.
So as you see, Aaron was a priest. Out of the 4 sons of Aaron, only 2 of them had male children. All of his grandchildren totaled 24. These 24 male children had children of their own, so the 24 fathers became the heads of the divisions of priests for the Lord. The 24 sat in leadership and judgement over the other priests, but they all represented the priests of God. We see this verified in the following verses:
Revelation 5:10 – “You have made us to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
Revelation 1:5-6 – 5 To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father
Sorry, did not finish my thought…. Just as the 24 elders represented all the priests, there will be 24 elders in Heaven that will represent all of the Christians who are also priests.
The pre-trib rapture is a lie of satan. It was invented in the 1830s And most of the Protestant churches swallowed it hook line and sinker.
Prove me wrong through scripture. Here is some info to educate you.
You say that the rapture theory was not taught until the 1800’s. This is untrue. Let’s look at some quotes from our early church fathers:
“You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly.” (The Shepherd of Hermas was written between 96-150 AD)
“And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.” For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. “And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution. (Victorinus (270-303 AD) – wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation)
“Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!” Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.” (Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373) – “On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World.”)
“Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah. And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reign for a long time. (Brother Dolcino (d. 1307)
The following Christian leaders of their day also taught about a Pre-Trib rapture:
Joseph Mede (1627): “Clavis Apocalyptica”
Increase Mather (1639-1723)
Peter Jurieu (1687)
John Gill (1748)
Morgan Edwards (1742-1744) the Founder of Brown University
discreet prepper
If you will study revelation 11 closely you will find it states in verse 15 the 7th angel sounded and the kingdoms of this world are become he the kingdoms of our LORD. this occurs after the 2nd woe as verse 14 plainly states.
This 7th angel is sounding the Last Trump which is the 7th Trump and last trumpet of the 7th Seal thus the first 6 Seals are completed and then Christ shall reign for ever and ever.
Then in verse 18 it states it is time to give reward to the Saints and the dead are judged.
Christ returns to earth after meeting the saints of God in the clouds and lands on the mount of Olives and then fight the Battle of that Great Day of God Almighty.
A great blast of a shofar is the call to war i.e. the sounding of the Trumpet.
If you will study Revelation 20: 4 -6 you will find 2 resurrections, the first before the 1000 years and the other after the 1000 years and you will find NO rapture.
If that is the case, then why are there humans in Heaven in Revelation 4? There can be no one in Heaven until the rapture occurs:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 – 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:50-52 – 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed
You have to explain humans in Heaven after John is caught up to Heaven in Revelation Chapter 4.
Revelation 4:1 – After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”
Don’t miss the fact that 2 times he says what takes place “after these things”. This means after the church ages. 7 letters to 7 churches, then no more church letters or inference after chapter 3. If Jesus was so concerned about the church to write them 7 letters, then why do we not hear about them again? Because John is transported through time to see the door to Heaven opened and the church gathered. Everything promised to the saints is witnessed with these elders.
Now, a voice like a trumpet calls John up… Doesn’t that sound familiar?
1 Thessalonians 4:16 – For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
There are two different gatherings for two different groups with two different trumpets.
1 Thessalonians 4:16- For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (Rapture of the Church)
1 Corinthians 15:52 – in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, (Rapture of the Church)
Matthew 24:31 – And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Rapture of Israel)
Isaiah 27: 12-13 – In that day the LORD will start His threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel. 13 It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem. (Rapture of Israel)
The church and Israel are not the same. The church believes by faith and are called citizens of Heaven. They are not supposed to be here for the wrath that will befall this world and Israel. Israel currently does not believe and will not be gathered until the very end. God speaks of this is Isaiah 27.
God has used trumpets for different reasons all throughout the Bible.
To summon Moses to the top of the mountain to receive the Commandments (Exodus19:19-20).
To give a signal during time of war (Judges 3:27).
To proclaim the start of the Jubilee year (Lev. 25:9).
To anoint a new king during coronation service (1 Kings 1:34).
To regather the outcasts of Israel (Isa. 27:13).
To warn the people of danger (Amos 3:6).
To declare the arrival of the Messiah (Zech. 9:14).
Think about it this way… A school uses the same bell all day long to note time. At the end of the day, the final bell rings to signify the end of the day. So they use the same system with no unique set of standards. The military on the other hand has all sorts of sounds to designate specific events and times. Their day opens with a certain song of a trumpet and it ends with another song of s trumpet. God’s uses trumpets like the military. There are trumpets for this feast and for that feast. Now, let’s look at the Feasts of the Lord. Does any of them symbolize the Messiah, the gathering of God’s people and the use of a trumpet?
1. Passover/Pesach (March/April) – Redemption/Sacrifice/Death of Messiah (Fulfilled)
2. Unleavened Bread (March/April) – Santification/Burial of Messiah/No decay (Fulfilled)
3. Firstfruits/Grain Harvest (March/April) – Represents the Savior as first of the harvest (Fulfilled)
4. Weeks/Shavuot (May/June) – Pentecost/Holy Spirit sent by YHWH (Fulfilled)
5. Yom Teruah (Trumpets)/Rosh Hashana (Sep/Oct) – The people appear before the Lord –Messiah returns to gather us for the assembly (“Rapture”) (A Future Event)
6. Day of Atonement/Yom Kippur (Sep/Oct) – Day of Atonement/Messiah saves Israel (A Future Event)
7. Tabernacles/Sukkot September/October – Wedding Feast /Messiah starts Millennium (A Future Event)
On the Feast of Trumpets all men (and every 7 years all men, women and children) must appear before the Lord.
Numbers 29:1 – “‘On the first day of the seventh month hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. It is a day for you to sound the trumpets.
There are four different sounds associated with the Feast of Trumpets. They are explained as follows:
Tekiah: A straight trumpet blast signifying Kingship.
A pure unbroken sound that calls man to search his heart, abandon his evil ways, and seek forgiveness through repentance.
Shevarim: Three short notes representing a man moaning in repentance.
A broken, staccato, trembling sound. It typifies the sorrow that comes to man when he realizes his wrong and desires to change his ways.
Teruah: Nine staccato notes blown in rapid succession, similar to the wail of a person weeping in short bursts. A wave-like sound of alarm calling upon man to stand by the banner of God.
Tekiah Gedolah: Means “The Last Trump”. This is one Long Blast. The prolonged, unbroken sound typifying a final invitation to sincere repentance and atonement.
There are 10 days of “Awe” in-between Feast of Trumpets/Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kipper. The central observance of Rosh Hashanah is the sounding of the shofar, the ram’s horn, which also represents the trumpet blast of a people’s coronation of their king. The cry of the shofar is also a call to repentance, for Rosh Hashanah is also the anniversary of man’s first sin and his repentance thereof, and serves as the first of the “Ten Days of Repentance” which culminate in Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. The Tekiah Gedolah means “The Last Trump”. The Hebrews all knew and were very familiar the term “last trump”. This one long blast is when the faithful in Christ are raptured. This takes place in Revelation 4. The trump you see in Revelation (the series of 7) are not the same as what Paul is talking about when he says on the last trump we will all be raised.
prepper
There is too much to address in your comment so let me just address the following;
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 – 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
In Zechariah 14 it states”in that day” that Christ shall be king over all the earth all the saints come with Him to the mount of Olives. Paul states they rise to meet the returning Christ in the clouds at the last trump and from there they come to the mount of Olive according to Zechariah. Here a little and there a little.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
The dead rise first before those few still alive — to met Christ in the Clouds – not heaven –where does it state they go to the 3rd heaven???? Where does it plainly and clearly state Christ returns to heaven with the Saints of God???
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Christ is coming by HIM self — no saints — with the shout of the angels and the trumpet of God
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the “clouds” to meet the Lord in the “air”, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
This does not state anyone is going to heaven but that the resurrected Saints will from that day on always be where Christ is — and where will HE be —- IN HIS KINGDOM here on earth
1 Corinthians 15:50-52 – 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Is this not clear; flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of God – no humans in the 3rd heaven!
AND it does not say the kingdom IN heaven but “OF” heaven, the Kingdom is from heaven. Remember the pray Christ taught “thy kingdom COME!!”
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed
So there are many sets of 7 trumpets — I would love to see where they are listed and explained.
and as far as Paul going to heaven — does Paul not say in another place “‘ i could not tell if it was real or a vision it was so real” No man has or will go to heaven but HE who came from heaven.
You have so many errors it would take 20 pages to explain.
Oh! the Feasts of God occur in 3 seasons and all three are mandatory for men every year, not every 7.
read Zechariah 14; 16 – 19 when Christ is ruling here on earth if the gentiles refuse to come to the Feast of Tabernacle every year then Christ allows plagues to smite the heathen — the nations of Israel will be keeping the Feasts of God so they need no correction.
Ok, I’ll break it down for you. Think through this verse as a timeline and in location.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 – 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope
(people are worried about where the dead in Christ are).
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus
(He will bring back the dead in Christ when He returns at the end).
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
(the living in Christ will not go before the dead in Christ)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
(Jesus will descend, not land on the earth. He will gather the dead in Christ first.)
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
(Jesus will then gather the living in Christ next and we will meet together with the dead in Christ in the air.)
Ok, so the above verse says Jesus comes down and gathers his people and pulls them up.
Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 “Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. 20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity”
Isaiah 26 says the dead rise and go to rooms while God comes out of His place to punish the earth. Jesus when to prepare rooms for us (John 14:1-3). Are these rooms here or in Heaven? Well scripture clearly says that He is in Heaven right now and scripture clearly says He goes there to make a place for us. So the rooms obviously point to being in Heaven.
Matthew 25:1-13 – 1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ 7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ 9 “ ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’ 12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
Why were these Christians gathered and put in rooms while other Christians were not? Here is another example where the Lord comes and collects His faithful followers and puts them in their rooms during the 7 year tribulation. The ones that are left are luke-warm Christians.
All of those verses show His faithful are gathered and go up to Heaven.
Now, let’s look at these verses:
Zechariah 14:4-5 – 4 “In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and ALL THE HOLY ONES WITH HIM!”
In Zechariah 14, we see His faithful returning with Him from Heaven to the earth at the end when He comes to vanquish the enemy. That means we come down with Him.
Revelation 19:14 – The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (to clarify, Rev 19:8 – “Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.”)
In Revelation 19, once again we see the faithful returning with the Lord from Heaven. That means we come down with Him.
Jesus Himself comes to gather us in 1 Thes 4, whereas the angels gather His people in Matt. 24:
Matthew 24:29-31 – 29 “But IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
Yes, humans cannot enter Heaven until they have their new bodies. That is why there are elders with new bodies in Revelation 4.
You misquoted me. Read what I said: “On the Feast of Trumpets all men (and every 7 years all men, women and children) must appear before the Lord.” I clearly said on the Feast of Trumpets (which takes place every year) all men must go. On the 7th Feast of Trumpets (Shemitah year) all people go.
prepper
I have gone through this with rapture folks before, you are firmly sold on going to heaven and nothing will change your mind — but the disappointment that is just ahead.
All of the Apostles are part of the Bride of Christ and all but John were martyred and died horrible deaths as were many saints the catholic church ripped to pieces and you are going to escape every thing that is coming because — why?? God loves you more??
You do not have to endure until the end as Christ commanded His Body?? Because you are special above all that came before you and DID endure until their end.
Satan is the best con man and he has conned this world big time.
You are looking at this from the wrong end my friend. People have been persecuted from day one because of Jesus. It is happening to the Christians right now. If a person is a Christian, they are part of the body of Christ. Because I happen to live in an area that is not being persecuted, does it not make me a Christian? Does it not make me a follower of Christ? At some point, the persecutions will end. Why is it outlandish for God to take His faithful away and end the persecution for them before He brings wrath to the persecutors? Why did He rescue Noah, Lot, Israel, etc. if He wanted them to go through His wrath? Are you saying that God is going to be inconsistent by saving some from His wrath and not others? Why would He say we are not destined for wrath and then put us through it?
You seem to think you understand scripture completely. Ok, I have a challenge for you… Answer the following questions to prove your point.
Please explain the elders in Revelation 4. Who are they?
Why do the elders sing, “Revelation 5:9-10 – 9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And have made us unto our God a kingdom and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”
Why does it say the people in white who have been taken out of the tribulation? Why are they allowed to go, but no one else is until the end?
Revelation 7: 14 – “I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
Can you explain the time line of this? You’ll see below that one event happens when the other event happens:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 – 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
If the anti-Christ needs 7 years to do his work, then how could we get gathered at the end when the verse above says we cannot be gathered until he is revealed? If, according to you we get gathered at the end, that means that the anti-Christ is going to be revealed at the very end and this would give him no time to do what Revelation 11-19 shows us. Please explain this.
You said, “you are firmly sold on going to heaven and nothing will change your mind”. It is not a matter of being firmly sold on going to Heaven, the scriptures clearly show it. If you do not think so, please explain the following verses to me:
Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 “Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. 20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity”
Luke 21:25-28 – 25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28 “But WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO TAKE PLACE, straighten up and LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, BECAUSE YOUR REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR.”
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 – 9 “…and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.”
If you do not want to take the time to test all things, then at least prove your point by explaining Isaiah 26 to me. Not one of you mid/post tribbers can do it. Do you think this is my first debate? No one can answer me on it.
prepper
I can not get to this until morning but i will answer.
but just one question — who is a christian??
does it matter what doctrine they follow?
Does it matter what days they keep?
Some think the Law was nailed to the cross
Some are not sure what the law even is
Some wait for the rapture and some think it is a lie
Is God the father the author of confusion?? are all of the above Christians even though they are completely divided??
I call them the 4000 flavors of confusion.
I can not get to this until morning but i will answer. – Please answer when you can.
but just one question — who is a christian?? – A Person who not only believes on the Lord, but does what He says. “If you love me you will obey my commands.”
does it matter what doctrine they follow? – Yes, a person that follows any other doctrine is deceiving themselves. Our doctrine is simple: Believe Him, Know Him, Serve Him, Serve others. We need to be the hands and feet of Christ.
Does it matter what days they keep? – We are supposed to follow the Feasts as they are “Feast to the Lord” and they are to be observed as an “everlasting ordinance.” Should we have fellowship on Sabbath days, yes, as God never said to change that.
Some think the Law was nailed to the cross – Not true. The Lord said He came to fulfill, not abolish. Till Heaven and Earth pass away, the law will remain.
Some are not sure what the law even is – Yes, very true. When you inform them of the truth, they attack you.
Some wait for the rapture and some think it is a lie – Two sides to the issue. It does not change the gospel message at all. Here is a thought…. What if Satan put it in people’s hearts to not believe that God will rescue them?
Is God the father the author of confusion?? are all of the above Christians even though they are completely divided?? – God is definitely not the author of confusion. That is why He showed us His plan and pattern over and over again. As an example, He gave us the Book of Joshua as a template of what is to come in the Book of Revelation. Example:
Joshua means “the LORD (Jehova) is Salvation” vs. The name Joshua in the Greek is “Jesus”
Rahab the harlot (a gentile) is saved from destruction vs. Believers in Christ are saved from
destruction
Priests carrying ark (seat of God) before the people vs. In Heaven, we stand before the throne
Priests stand in river & water stops vs. We, as priests are standing on a sea of glass
The Israelites must be circumcised before entering vs. Believers must be circumcised of the
heart before entering
The Lord shows up to take over the battle vs. The Lord shows up to take the scroll (title deed)
7 days of marching vs. 7 years of the tribulation
7 trumpets, then the walls fall down vs. 7 trumpets which bring tribulation and judgment
Jericho is destroyed vs. 1/3 of Earth is destroyed
King Adoni-Zedek of Jerusalem “Lord of Righteousness” vs. The antichrist call himself god from
God’s temple in Jerusalem
The Israelites are facing 7 nations (were 10) vs. Seven kingdoms of the beast and he will rule over 10 kings
Days are not long enough for Joshua vs. The days are shortened for the elect
There are supernatural signs in sun, moon and stars vs. There are supernatural signs in
sun, moon and stars
The kings run and hide in caves vs. The kings hid in the caves and
among the rocks
The Amorites were defeated at Beth Horon vs. The world’s armies are defeated at Armageddon (Beth Horon)
The jubilee year starts when the conquest is over vs. The millennial reign starts when the battle is over
discreet Prepper
You are looking at this from the wrong end my friend. People have been persecuted from day one because of Jesus. It is happening to the Christians right now. If a person is a Christian, they are part of the body of Christ. Because I happen to live in an area that is not being persecuted, does it not make me a Christian? Does it not make me a follower of Christ? At some point, the persecutions will end. Why is it outlandish for God to take His faithful away and end the persecution for them before He brings wrath to the persecutors? Why did He rescue Noah, Lot, Israel, etc. if He wanted them to go through His wrath?
*****Prepper, Christ did not take Noah and Lot from persecution; God gave the world 120 years to repent, they would not — so He put the whole world to death. God found one righteous person Noah, so He used Noah and his 3 sons to replenish the earth. God did not need to take Noah to heaven – God has total and complete power, he could have protected Noah and lot in the middle of a neutron bomb blast. Need I bring up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego??
***God can protect a human here on earth there is no need to take them to heaven.
Are you saying that God is going to be inconsistent by saving some from His wrath and not others? Why would He say we are not destined for wrath and then put us through it?
******Do you not understand that being a martyr for the Word of God is an honor that only the most faithful are allowed to receive??? Becoming a martyr can be understood as God’s “Congressional Medal of Honor”. Stop and consider who was allowed to become martyred, Steven, 11 of the Apostles and Paul and add in most of God’s Prophets and then the greatest of all Jesus Christ. And you want to run from that honor???
You seem to think you understand scripture completely. Ok, I have a challenge for you… Answer the following questions to prove your point.
Please explain the elders in Revelation 4. Who are they?
*****First this is a vision of the Throne of God the Father and around the Father’s Throne are 24 elders (angelic), 4 beasts (angelic), and the 7 spirits of God. Did you think God the Father is all alone in the third heaven?? He commissioned Christ to make hundreds of millions of angelic beings each for a specific position to assist Him and those He is calling to become Sons of God i.e. the saints.
Why do the elders sing, “Revelation 5:9-10 – 9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And have made us unto our God a kingdom and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”
****** Please understand all punctuation was added by man – there is no punctuation in the old or the new— thus if the period is remove it is clear who is singing this song. “Which are the prayers of saints and ‘they’ sung a new song—“
******It is not the 24 elders singing the song it is the saints of God thanking Jesus Christ for redeeming them and making them kings and priest to rule ON THE EARTH WITH CHRIST.. Jesus Christ is coming to earth as KING of kings and LORD of lords and the saints of God are those kings and lords and priest.
****AND they shall rule on earth not in heaven.
Why does it say the people in white who have been taken out of the tribulation? Why are they allowed to go, but no one else is until the end?
Revelation 7: 14 – “I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
*****This is really a long answer but I will do my best to shorten it: The Nations of the House of Israel have broken the Covenant and transgressed the HOLY LAWs of God, God is bring judgment upon then and that judgement is called the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble”
***** if you will read Ezekiel chapters 5,6,7 you will find 2/3 of the nations of Israel will die of famine, disease and the sword i.e. war and the one third that remain alive are taken into captivity beginning at the 5th Seal i.e. the Great Tribulation.
***** The remnant of the House of Israel in captivity that survives are broken into two categories the 144,000 and the Great Multitude.
******The 144,000 are spiritual virgins which mean they did not worship etc the Beast and they become First Fruits and take part in the first resurrection.
**** The Great Multitude are freed from captivity at the return of Jesu Christ and by the 2nd Exodus return to Jerusalem to receive the Promised land for ever.
***if you have never heard of the 2nd exodus please read Jeremiah 16:14 -15 along with Jer 31: 6-9; Isa. 11: 11-16 and Isa, 35: 1-16
****both the 144,000 and the great multitude are brought to repentance during the tribulation.
Can you explain the time line of this? You’ll see below that one event happens when the other event happens:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 – 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
*******At the 5th Seal the False prophet and the Beast are at Jerusalem at Passover time and they work miracles which will cause the whole world to worship the Beast. The beast will claim to BE god.
If the anti-Christ needs 7 years to do his work, then how could we get gathered at the end when the verse above says we cannot be gathered until he is revealed? If, according to you we get gathered at the end, that means that the anti-Christ is going to be revealed at the very end and this would give him no time to do what Revelation 11-19 shows us. Please explain this.
*****There is no person that IS THE Antichrist but the Beast and the false Prophet are full on anti — Christ they are 100% against HIM. The 5th Seal begins the last 1260 days or 42 months or 3 ½ years (all the same) and that is the 3 ½ years that Satan given the Beast his power over this earth –Satan is the god of this world and controls all things.
You said, “you are firmly sold on going to heaven and nothing will change your mind”. It is not a matter of being firmly sold on going to Heaven, the scriptures clearly show it. If you do not think so, please explain the following verses to me:
Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 “Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
********This is the first resurrection found in Revelation 20: 4 -6. We are not spirits, look it up in Strong’s it is breath, wind, spirit.
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity”
****verse 20 is describing the Day of the Lord which is the wrath of God and that wrath is upon the gentiles,, the Day of the Lord is the last year of the 7 year time of the end. Some will be protected in their homes, you think God can not surround my home with 10 legions of angels ???
Luke 21:25-28 – 25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
*****This is the 6th Seal which is the Heavenly signs; it is by the 6th Seal that the 5th Seal is ended. If you will read Joel 2 you will find this same event and it states the Day of the Lord follow it. The Day of the Lord is the 7th Seal. Also in Revelation 6; 12 you will find it described again.
27 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28 “But WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO TAKE PLACE, straighten up and LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, BECAUSE YOUR REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR.”
**** Just like Christ left in a cloud so He will come to earth in a cloud and that is the very day of the first resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 – 9 “…and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.”
***does this say how we are rescued?? Jesus will keep us from the wrath of God on the gentiles. Period.
If you do not want to take the time to test all things, then at least prove your point by explaining Isaiah 26 to me. Not one of you mid/post tribbers can do it. Do you think this is my first debate? No one can answer me on i
Everything I have written can be found in other scriptures, I have been studying the WORD of GOD since 1968. The word of God is written to confound not in inform, read Isaiah 28:13
prepper
Jesus Christ came to earth to die for our sins, He had to die to remove from us the penalty of sin which is death. His life is worth more then all human life and thus His one life was payment enough to cover all our debt to sin. Christ died so I can be given the promise of eternal life, otherwise when I die that is it for me.
To be able to be our savior Jesus Christ had to be sinless –not even one very tiny sin. Christ followed the Torah the 5 Books of Moses (the LAW) that is so HOLY it was placed in the Ark of the Covenant along with the 2 tables of stone on which by the finger of God were written the 10 Commandments.
Christ came to show those the Father calls how to live a righteous life –HIS example is what we are to follow both physically and spiritually. We are to OBEY Christ –”Why call Me Lord Lord and do not the things I say?”
I follow the same Law, Statutes and Judgments plus the Sabbaths as did Christ and all the Apostles. They are the examples we are to follow. They kept the Sabbath and the Holy Days and so must I.
If the 120 had not assembled on the Feast of Pentecost as commanded to do — they would not have received the Holy Spirit.
In Hebrews 6: 1 -3 Paul lists the doctrines of Jesus Christ:
Repentance
Faith
baptisms
the laying on of hands
the resurrection of the dead
eternal judgment
and then tells us we must go on into perfection
And how can we know what is perfection::: the life of Christ.
prepper, it is all in the WORD of God but it is not written to be understood by the carnal mind of man –God the Father must first call and then open a persons mind otherwise Christianity is just one huge mass of confusion. which it is.
@ Truthseeker
I have looked at your answers to me and to be honest, I don’t even know where to begin. In fact, there are a lot of people out there like yourself who may understand the basics of the Bible, but get so far track that it is not even worth my time to try to debate this or your knowledge with you. Satan loves to get us all sidetracked and if I am going to spend my day trying to show you what scripture means, I will waste other opportunities to preach the Word of God. I will give you a few points to show you how off track you are so you can pray about it and see what God wants to show you.
Scripture is to be taken literally and God gives us the answers all throughout scripture to understand other points of scripture. As an example, you feel that the rooms we will be protected in are on earth. Jesus clearly said He is going to Heaven to prepare a place for us:
John 14:2 – “My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?” (This also matches the Hebrew Marriage Template exactly)
Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 “Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. 20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity”
You seriously don’t see the connection? God is not an author of confusion. He gave us the simple answer, but you are skewing scripture to try to make your point. Why would He tell us that we have rooms waiting for us in Heaven if we never get to use them?
Let’s discuss your theory of God protecting you through His wrath on earth. First of all, I would like to see scriptures that clearly say that in relation to end time events. In the Book of Revelation we see something strike the earth from space and 1/3 of the green grass is burned up. What if your house is in the midst of this event? That would mean God’s wrath has killed you. If not, and as you say the angels protect your home, then where will you get drinking water and food from? If you think He will give you manna and fresh water through it all, think again because you cannot find that in scripture anywhere in relation to this event. You are really reaching to think that God will put you in your own home and protect you.
You say the dead in Christ rise at the end. You also say that God will protect you on this earth in your home. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 says that the dead in Christ and the living are caught up together with Him in the air. Then why does Isaiah 26 say the dead will rise and then go to a room? Are you saying that the dead rise on earth and then God puts them in a house on earth? Who’s house? Do they go to the last house they lived in on earth before they died? What if someone else is in it? What if it does not exist? Your theory is completely flawed.
Also, you think we stay here on earth and are protected through it. Then why did Jesus say we will go to Heaven later? You say that we stay on earth and await His return. So what is it? Do we get to go to the rooms He made for us, or do we stay on earth?
John 13:36 – Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered, “Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later.” (We will go to Heaven, not stay on earth)
The examples of God protecting his people (Noah, Lot, Enoch, etc.) are an example of Him taking us away from His wrath. Some were taken to Heaven, like Enoch, and some were not because it was not time to do so. God shows us that He can do either. To say He will not take us up before His wrath goes against the examples He has given us. As for Enoch, why didn’t God leave him here to experience the flood? As you say, He could have protected him through it. In fact, he could have put him on the boat with Noah. Why did the angels forcibly remove Lot and tell him that the wrath of God could not come until he was taken out? These all serve as examples of what He can do in the future.
You said: “Do you not understand that being a martyr for the Word of God is an honor that only the most faithful are allowed to receive??? Becoming a martyr can be understood as God’s “Congressional Medal of Honor”. Stop and consider who was allowed to become martyred, Steven, 11 of the Apostles and Paul and add in most of God’s Prophets and then the greatest of all Jesus Christ. And you want to run from that honor???”
Being a martyr is different than being a recipient of God’s wrath. Sadly you don’t see the difference. The 11 disciples and those like them were killed as martyrs during a time when God’s wrath was NOT being poured out. There is not one example in the entire Bible of a Godly person being martyred during a time of God’s wrath. We have martyrs for the faith right now as we speak. They are heroes. The will be honored. What is happening during the tribulation is God’s wrath upon a fallen world. We are not part of that. We are not the object of His wrath, the unsaved are. During the tribulation, many will be saved and they will be martyred for their faith. That is the price they pay for waiting so long to accept the Lord.
Here is another one that you do not seem to understand. You said: “*******At the 5th Seal the False prophet and the Beast are at Jerusalem at Passover time and they work miracles which will cause the whole world to worship the Beast. The beast will claim to BE god.”
This is just sloppy work. The 5th seal is not the False Prophet and the Beast at Jerusalem. That does not take place until Chapter 13. If you take the time to read, you will see that the 7th seal is actually the beginning of the 7 trumpets. Then, the 7 bowls follows that. It is in chronological order, so you can’t have Rev 13 happen in Rev 6.
You said: “*****There is no person that IS THE Antichrist but the Beast and the false Prophet are full on anti — Christ they are 100% against HIM. The 5th Seal begins the last 1260 days or 42 months or 3 ½ years (all the same) and that is the 3 ½ years that Satan given the Beast his power over this earth –Satan is the god of this world and controls all things.”
Once again, you are off on your time line. Chapter 11 shows the 2 witnesses at the Temple for 1260 days. After their ministry ends, they will be killed. Then it clearly says that the beast will go after Israel for 3.5 years.
Revelation 12:6 – Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Repeated in:
Revelation 12:14 – But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Clearly Seal 5 is not the mid-point of the tribulation.
Here is the last point I will make to prove to you that you are taking things out of context. You said: “****** Please understand all punctuation was added by man – there is no punctuation in the old or the new— thus if the period is remove it is clear who is singing this song. “Which are the prayers of saints and ‘they’ sung a new song—“ ******It is not the 24 elders singing the song it is the saints of God thanking Jesus Christ for redeeming them and making them kings and priest to rule ON THE EARTH WITH CHRIST.. Jesus Christ is coming to earth as KING of kings and LORD of lords and the saints of God are those kings and lords and priest. ****AND they shall rule on earth not in heaven.”
Let’s look at the scripture:
Revelation 5:8-10 – 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10“You have made us to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and we will reign upon the earth.”
In Heaven, there are 4 living creatures, and 24 elders (who are holding the prayers of the saints). Please take note that the 24 elders are holding the bowls which are the prayers of the saints. The prayers of the saints are not singing, it is the elders and the four living creatures. They clearly say they will reign on the earth which is a picture of their authority during the 1000 year reign of Christ.
With that I am finished with this debate as it is only wasting my time.
prepper
good luck
The rooms are presumably in the heavenly Jerusalem that descends to the earth.
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
The foundation of the rapture theory was laid over 400 years ago upon the specific orders of the Catholic Church. Every Christian needs to understand how this fabrication of error was designed to neutralize the great Protestant Reformation. If the facts of history were known by Protestants today who defend with such great emotion the rapture theory and the futurist antichrist doctrine, they would be horrified.Luther and his fellow reformers boldly identified the pope as the “man of sin,” and labeled the Catholic Church as the antichrist of prophecy. In response to those charges, the hierarchy assigned two Jesuit priests to develop counter- interpretations which would turn the onus away from the Catholic Church. In spite of the fact that the two men founded opposing schools of interpretation, their theories have survived to form the basis of most modern Protestant theology today. Not only did they effectively blunt Luther’s assessment of the papacy as the antichrist, but they cleverly divided and diluted the “protest” of all the churches which grew out of the Reformation movement. Modern religious observers were astounded in January, 1984, when men like Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell meekly accepted and defended the establishment of United States political ties with the Vatican. Why could those famous Protestant spokesmen see no danger in being allied with the Church of Rome? Because they are deceived, along with millions of others, by the Catholic-contrived theories of those two priests which have almost eclipsed the historic, biblical position of the Reformers. If the spiritual descendants of Luther and Wesley now had the same doctrine which they taught, not a single Lutheran or Methodist would favor any kind of alliance with the papacy today.
Now let’s take a look at these two Spanish priests who flooded the sixteenth century with their counter-Reformation propaganda.Alcazar of Seville applied all the beast prophecies to Antiochus Epiphanes, who lived long before the popes began to rule in Rome. His system of interpretation came to be known as the Preterist School of prophecy.On the other hand, Jesuit Francisco Rivera invented a system known as the Futurist School of interpretation. He taught that the antichrist was to be some future superman who would appear near the end of time and continue in power for three and a half years. It is his clever, unscriptural theory which has been resurrected by modern evangelical Protestant Christians. And today millions of Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, etc., hold this anti-Protestant concoction of the Jesuits as some kind of infallible doctrine. Yet, those same denominations claim to be faithful supporters of Protestant theology. Luther and other stalwart protestors against Catholic errors would be astounded if they were suddenly resurrected to hear what is being taught in the name of Protestantism. In the early 1800s the futurist view of Jesuit Ribera passed through certain refinements and additions, including the seven-year tribulation and the snatching away of the saints. For the first time, it was espoused by Protestant teachers who were seeking ways of reconciliation with Rome. Through the influence and writings of John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren Church in England, the new doctrine spread to the United States. During the middle and latter nineteenth century, it received its biggest boost from Cyrus Scofield, who incorporated it into the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible published in 1909.
http://www.remnantofgod.org/rapt2.htm
I already proved you wrong with my reply above. You can’t go back and erase the writings of Christians in the 1,2 and 3rd centuries.
Also, are you trying to say that this theory somehow negates scripture? If you think you know scripture, please explain this passage to me. Not one mid/post tribber can do it.
Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 “Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. 20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity”
How about this one?
Zechariah 14:4-5 – 4 “In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and ALL THE HOLY ONES WITH HIM!”
How can we get raptured at the end if He comes back with us?
If there is no Anti-Christ, then how can you explain the following verses?
Daniel 7:24-25 & Daniel 8:23-25
Amminadab is a sick bald-faced liar.
The notion of a rapture preceding a millennial kingdom on earth (chiliasm) was not begun by the Catholic Church but was in fact condemned by Catholic theologians as rank Gnostic heresy over fifteen hundred years ago. Chiliasm refers to the Greek word for “one thousand.”
Therefore anyone who preaches chiliasm (the rapture and millenarianism) is a heretic and a hedonist.
The above article was written by a heretical idiot for other heretical idiots.
So why is my article for heretical idiots? Can you prove me wrong through scripture?
A COLLECTION OF VERSES LINKING TRIBULATION WITH CHRISTIANS
Hint: WE WILL BE HERE!
Psa.27.5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Psa.37.39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
Matt.10.17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Matt.10.18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Matt.10.19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Matt.10.20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Matt.10.21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
Matt.10.22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matt 24:9-14 “Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matt.24.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Matt.24.23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Matt.24.24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matt.24.25 Behold, I have told you before.
Matt.24.26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Matt.24.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luke 21:28 When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh..
John.16.33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Acts.14.22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
2 Thes 2:9 “Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,”
Rev.1.7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen
Rev.7.14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
MY PERSONAL FAVORITE…
John 17:15, “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
Jesus Christ Himself, in a prayer FOR US is asking His Father that we are NOT taken out of the World, rather He wants us protected WHILE we’re here. Hence, this Biblical FACT…
Psalms 91:10, “There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.”
You just proved yourself wrong in the first verse!
Psalm 27:5-7 – 5 For in the day of trouble He will conceal me in His tabernacle; In the secret place of His tent He will hide me; He will lift me up on a rock. 6 And now my head will be lifted up above my enemies around me, And I will offer in His tent sacrifices with shouts of joy; I will sing, yes, I will sing praises to the LORD. 7 Hear, O LORD, when I cry with my voice, And be gracious to me and answer me.
Where is the Lord’s Tabernacle? He does not have one here on earth.
How about these:
Zephaniah 2:2-3 – 2 Before the decree takes effect— The day passes like the chaff— Before the burning anger of the LORD comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD’S anger comes upon you. 3 Seek the LORD, All you humble of the earth Who have carried out His ordinances; Seek righteousness, seek humility. Perhaps you will be hidden In the day of the LORD’S anger.
Malachi 3:16-18 – 16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name. 17 “They will be Mine,” says the LORD of hosts, “on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him.” 18 So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.
There are two gatherings. One for the church in Revelation chapter 4 and the other at the end.
You never answered my questions. That is no way to handle a debate.
Revelation 20:6, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”
The 1000 years begins with a resurrection of the RIGHTEOUS. this is the FIRST resurrection.
Revelation 20:5, “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished…
The wicked will NOT be alive during this 1000 years. The Bible bluntly says they won’t live until the 1000 years are over.
John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
That’s two different resurrections being noted here. Plus, the Bible states these two are separated by 1000 years of time rather bluntly.
So, how does the 1000 years begin according to the Bible?
FIVE SIGNS THAT START THE 1000 YEARS
1. The second coming:
John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
Matthew 24:30-31, “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
As most of us know. It starts with the second coming. Even the Worldly preachers know this. Problem is, they misunderstand certain Biblical aspects of what occurs DURING the 1000 years that allows for false prophecies and lies to be embraced by the general population as you will soon see.
2. Resurrection of the righteous:
1 Thessalonians 4:16, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
1 Corinthians 15:51-53, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
First the dead Christians are raised. Then…
3. Translation of the righteous living:
1 Thessalonians 4:17, “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
The righteous LIVING are changed from mortal to immortal as was strated in 1 Corinthians 15:53. And then we go UP in the air with Jesus. Many preachers of today think Jesus will descend to the Earth at this time and set up His kingdom on earth now. However, the Bible doesn’t say that at all. In fact, what does happen to those that don’t go with Jesus…?
4. Wicked living are slain:
Jeremiah 25:33, “And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
Revelation 6:14-17, “And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
Revelation 19:11-18, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”
Do some of you remember this verse we discussed many times before where Jesus tells the Apostles were the wicked will be when the Christians leave with Him at what the world calls the Rapture?
Luke 17:37, “And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”
We will get back to this one later. The final sign that signifies the beginning of the 1000 years?
5. Satan bound:
Revelation 20:2-3, “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”
Bound = the same as you saying “I’m all tied up, I can’t go with you.” It’s circumstances that will bound the Devil for the 1000 years, and what are these circumstances?
Isaiah 24:1,3 “Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.”
Jeremiah 25:33, “And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.”
He can’t tempt anyone because they are all DEAD! They are BIRD FOOD!
Remember what this angel said earlier?
Revelation 19:17-18, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”
By the way… Will the birds be done eating?
Jeremiah 4:23-27, “I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.”
What will we be doing for those 1000 years?
Revelation 20:6, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”
Revelation 20:4, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:..”
1 Corinthians 6:2-3, “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?”
We will be reigning with Christ and doing the work of the judgment. But, why do you suppose the saints judge the world? Some may proclaim, “I thought Jesus did the judgment?” I say, CORRECT, and we are REIGNING with Him right now aren’t we? Picture yourself in Heaven looking for someone you thought was a Christian, and finally realizing they are not there. Will you now go through eternity thinking about why your loved one isn’t there? This judgment work we do is two fold…
(1.) It vindicates the Lord IN OUR HEARTS, exposing the lies of hell.
(2.) It proves the Lord gave your loved one EVERY opportunity to join Him and you in Heaven.
You ARE reading their book aren’t you? You have all the proof before you. You now know that Jesus DID do as He said He would, and your loved one denied Him DAILY! The Lord opens the books so you can see with your own eyes that they did in fact ignore Him. And then finally you come to the conclusion, it is NOT His fault. they chose Hell on their own!
Where is the salvation of Israel in all of that? You are substituting the Israel for the church. They are two different entities. The Church gets raptured in Rev 4 (which you still haven’t tolds me why there are humans on thrones with crowns in Heaven in Rev. 4) and Israel is gathered at the end before the 1000 year reign.
FIVE SIGNS THAT END THE 1000 YEARS
1. The wicked are raised:
Jude 1:14-15, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”
Revelation 20:5, “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”
That’s ALL the wicked! From Cain to the last sinner! BILLIONS upon billions the world over! Think of it! It’s not going to be a fun place by any means. PLUS, they will not be in glorified bodies as you will soon see. So if they died deaf, dumb or blind, they awaken deaf, dumb and blind as well.
2. Satan is set free:
Revelation 20:7, “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,”
3. New Jerusalem comes to earth:
Revelation 21:2, “And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
Revelation 21:3, “And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”
Want to know where it will settle down?
Zechariah 14:4-6, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.”
4. All the wicked are destroyed:
Revelation 20:9, “And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”
Why did the wicked surround the city? Why not just leave us be? Why not leave and go someplace else away from the city? In this resurrection the Bible does not say they are resurrected “whole” or with “immortality.” In the first resurrection, those Christians that die blind, awaken with sight, those that die deaf, awaken hearing, those that died lame, awaken walking. The second resurrection doesn’t have these wondrous miracles because these wicked are not righteous, nor are they IN the city where there is something that heals the nations!
Genesis 3:22-24, “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
Fact is, the “tree of life” is in the midst of New Jerusalem.
Revelation 22:2, “In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
How can they be healed when the tree is inside the city? Could it be they seek the tree of life so as to continue living forever in sin? However, it is written…
Nahum 1:9, “What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.”
Instead, theirs is the Great White Throne Executive judgment. When they come against the city to try and destroy it obviously for that tree of life We read this…
Revelation 20:11-12, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”
In front of every single human that ever lived. ALL the righteous in the city, and before all the wicked outside the city will be a grand view of the plan of salvation as the Great God stands before them. The righteous will not have to deal with the judgment of the wicked for it is written…
1 Corinthians 11:31-32, “For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.”
But the wicked trusted in their works alone to gain Heaven. they had no faith in Jesus to save them, so it is by their works they will be judged because they proclaimed themselves unworthy of a Saviour. HOWEVER, regardless of the outcome…
Romans 14:11, “For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
The problem is, the wicked will get up off their knees and try to take the city by force so as to gain eternal life, but as it is written… “… and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.” -Revelation 20:9
Revelation 20:13-14, “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”
There is no resurrection from this death. Only those that took part in the “first” resurrection shall live on. It is this death that is permanent. It is here the saying “God of the living” is realized in reality. For the righteous WILL be living for eternity, and the wicked shall be dead for eternity. And after their bodies turn to ash, and the fire burns out, and all the wicked, Satan, his angels, death, and hell are burned to ashes. What do the righteous do that day?
Malachi 4:1,3 “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.”
5. Earth made brand new:
2 Peter 3:10-13, “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
Revelation 21:1, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
Matthew 5:5, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”
Earth will then be the home of the Almighty Godhead. His children will be about Him. And Heaven will be on earth.
Rabbi Creamer demands this debate be conducted in a Christ-like manner lest the love of Jesus be not found here. Perhaps the gentleman isn’t as familiar with Scripture, as he claims to be, because the Jesus in my Bible called wayward folk: hypocrites, fools, blind people, blind guides, whitewashed tombs, lawless, of their father the devil, and liars. So i’m guessing, Brett, was playing the tortured artist and as far as i’m concerned my boss allows plenty of leeway for a bit of argy-bargy.
Seeing how, Mr Creamer, deigned to correct another contributor’s spelling, regarding the book of the apocalypse, it would be remiss of me not to point out his own errors…
“I am a Adult Education Bible teacher” Um that should be “an Adult”.
“this is just simple reading of scripture” Yeah that should read “just a simple”.
“but over seeral years of study,” Here’s a “v” for the typo.
“nothing but conradictions in the” And a “t”.
“Book fo Revelation” Now that’s plainly disrespectful and lazy.
… and inform him that making a rod for his own back isn’t necessary here in the bins.
A pre-trib-rapture huh? Welcome aboard, friend, and yes this is a very touchy subject so lets see how we do.
Touchy subject yes… Need to be a jerk, no. When someone responds immediately with “The pre-trib rapture is a lie of Satan” with no evidence or scripture to back it up, it is harsh, immature and un-Christlike. This is what I was getting at:
Matthew 5:9 – Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
Luke 6:36 – Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Colossians 3:12 – Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
James 3:17 – But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
Titus 3:2 – to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.
Galatians 5:22 – But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
2 Timothy 4:2 – Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.
You may pick out all the times Jesus insulted those who were outwardly breaking God’s laws and being hypocrites… I pick out the verses that tell us how to act towards one another and show the love of Christ. I try to remember that even a person who attacks and insults me is still a Christian brother and they may need to learn something new. You get more flies with honey than vinegar.
By the way, thanks for proofing my article.
In a reply to Truthseeker you said…
“I have looked at your answers to me and to be honest, I don’t even know where to begin. In fact, there are a lot of people out there like yourself who may understand the basics of the Bible, but get so far track that it is not even worth my time to try to debate this or your knowledge with you. Satan loves to get us all sidetracked and if I am going to spend my day trying to show you what scripture means, I will waste other opportunities to preach the Word of God.
… and here i thought you were up for polite debate. Some teacher you turned out to be, Rabbi Creamer, or is it “Preacher” now?
You went on to say…
“With that I am finished with this debate as it is only wasting my time.”
… and you’re not the first, not by a long chalk, to stumble into the bins, fail to defend your position and slither off when the going gets tough.
Seems like you are looking for trouble. Shame you go after people in matters not relating to the Bible or butting in where it is none of your business. For your information, after about 10 messages back and forth with Truthseeker, with no matter what I said, he continues to mis-use scripture. I was not nasty with him or insulting, it was simply wasting my time and told him as much. Pearls before swine…
So, you think I “failed to defend my position and I slithered off”? Did he prove me wrong through scripture, or did he only prove his misunderstanding of God’s Word? You’re talking big, but I have yet to see you bring scripture to the table to prove me wrong. Bring it on if you want to.
Here you say…
“I have yet to see you bring scripture to the table to prove me wrong.”
… completely ignoring the fact, Brett, that i have done exactly that. I repeat…
“With regard to the song of praise, Isaiah 26:19-21, who says the rooms are of the Father’s house?”
… and i await your answer but accept that you’d rather focus on my personality than address my question.
You said: “Did Isaiah state that the rooms are of the Father’s house or did Jesus/John expressly refer to Isaiah’s prophecy? No? Then it remains your opinion. Do the houses of Judah, Israel or David have rooms?”
So you are saying you don’t know what rooms Isaiah is talking about in Isa 26? Dead people rise from their graves and you actually are saying they could be going to Isaiah’s house? Seriously? Are the dead supposed to return to their old homes on earth? Are the dead going to bunk in with David?
I asked you “Please explain where the dead go before the wrath comes?”
You replied “and i’m not sure what you mean but if i hazard to guess then i’m unable to see the relevance to this debate.”
You realize that my article was about the pre-tribulation rapture, right? It is more than relevant to this debate. You are questioning my use of Isa 26 as a pre-trib rapture verse. In the passage it clearly states the dead rise before God’s wrath. I will ask again, where do they go when they rise?
The dead rise, they go to a room and then God’s wrath comes. So if you are going to fight me like you are, then you tell me what rooms they go to before His wrath? You are so worried about trying to prove where the room is that you are missing the point that the dead will rise before God’s wrath comes. That my friend is Pre-tribulation rapture.
Also, you mentioned John 14:23 – “Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.” And you said, “it’s the same Greek word”.
Yes, it is the same word, but in a different context. You do realize in context this is a different subject topic, right? You do realize that Jesus has moved on from the “go to prepare a place for you” and now He is talking about the Holy Spirit that will come upon the believer. This is the helper that will come to us until the Lord returns to gather the church. This has no bearing on where the room will be.
No i’m not saying that i don’t don’t know what rooms Isaiah is talking about and, in fact, i gave 3 examples to clarify exactly what Isaiah meant. Your strawman arguments serve no purpose in this debate, Prepper, so stick to what i say not what you think i said.
Isaiah 26:19 while implying belief in the physical resurrection does so symbolically. The passage speaks of an awakening or spiritual/national resurrection and is antithetical to Isaiah 26:14.
Isaiah 26:19 is no more literal than Isaiah 26:14 unless you can argue that the believers alive today are not under the domain of earthly rulers. Therefore verse 14 must mean devoid of spirit rather than physically dead.
Isaiah 26 is a song, Mr Creamer, and you are reading more into it than Scripture allows. Doctrine is not found in the songs but only supported by them which is why, in part, i say your position is based on, and begins with, a false premise from which you attempt to build a case.
The resurrection you have in mind occurs at the end of the tribulation, at the 7th Trump, with the return of Jesus, which precedes the battle at Megiddo, at the commencement of Jesus millennial reign, immediately prior to the great day of God’s wrath.
Regarding John 14:23, Brett, as i said the Greek word is only used twice, by Jesus, and the context surrounding each of the uses indicates that something more than merely a bedroom, or innermost chamber/sanctuary, is being described.
Aren’t the ‘dead’ being spoken of in verse 14 the other ‘LORDS’ from verse 13?
Isaiah 26:14
יד מֵתִים, בַּל-יִחְיוּ–רְפָאִים, בַּל-יָקֻמוּ; לָכֵן פָּקַדְתָּ וַתַּשְׁמִידֵם, וַתְּאַבֵּד כָּל-זֵכֶר לָמוֹ.
MUTHIM [מֵתִים] (the ones being dead) Bl-Ihio [בַּל-יִחְיוּ] no they are living…
REPHAIM [רְפָאִים]!!! (THE DECEASED)
Watch out for this one; plural version of:
H7496 רפא râphâ’ raw-faw’
From H7495 in the sense of H7503; properly lax, that is, (figuratively) A GHOST (as dead; IN PLURAL ONLY): – dead, deceased.
Google translates this word as ‘SPIRITS.’
These are the LORDS being spoken of in Isaiah 26:13
O Lord our God, (other) lords beside Thee have had dominion over us…
Those LORDS are the REPHAIM spoken of in verse 14. This does not come through in translation in the KJV. These are NOT men. It is not Adam-kind we are talking about here.
So Isaiah 26:14 should read thus:
MUTHIM, they shall not live; REPHAIM, they shall not rise: Therefore, Thou hast visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Thanks for your input, Beef, learning all the time.
I wonder when was the last time Discreet Prepper, learned something new about his faith.
By the way:
“i’m concerned” really needs a capital letter in there (I’m).
“Welcome aboard, friend,” would read much better if you said “Welcome aboard friend,”.
“so lets see how we do” – lets really needs an apostrophe (let’s).
I’ll give you “let’s” but the little “i” is my thing plus the overemphasis on “friend” was intentional.
That is a very good treatise on social etiquette, well done, and as i said – let’s see how we do.
With the pleasantries squared away it’s high time i addressed the topic. I’ve read your article and notice that right away you rely on your opinion and proceed to build a case from there. Which, if your presumption is incorrect, pretty much makes your entire article an argument from false premises.
My point is this – With regard to the song of praise, Isaiah 26:19-21, who says the rooms are of the Father’s house?
prepper & Mayhem
does the House of David have rooms??
Does the house of Judah or Israel have rooms?
In our Father’s House are many positions of authority — not houses or rooms.
In Revelation it states the Saints will rule with Christ as kings and lords — both positions of authority.
David will rule over all 12 tribes and the 12 apostles will each rule as kings over a tribe of Israel..
“”In my Father HOUSE i.e Family, are many positions of authority and I go to prepare a place i.e. a positions for YOU!”"
Since you have been reading my communications with Truthseeker I thought you saw my response to that question. I’ll update with more detail:
In context:
John 13:36-38 – 36 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered, “Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later.” 37 Peter said to Him, “Lord, why can I not follow You right now? I will lay down my life for You.” 38 Jesus answered, “Will you lay down your life for Me? Truly, truly, I say to you, a rooster will not crow until you deny Me three times.
John 14:1-3 – 1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
This verse illustrates many points.
1) The verses in John 14 are a continuation from John 13. The conversation was pointing to the fact that Jesus will killed and will then be called up to Heaven.
2) Notice they cannot go there until He comes back for them. (1 Thess 4)
3) Jesus clearly said He is going to Heaven to prepare a place for us.
4) He also said “My Father’s House” has many rooms. The rooms He will be adding will be in His Father’s house.
5) Notice He will return for us (Matt 25)
6) Not to mention that this also matches the Hebrew Marriage Template exactly.
In context, Jesus is in Heaven making rooms for His people and at a certain point we will gather us and take us there. Now, knowing that, read Isaiah 26:
Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 “Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. 20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity”
Let’s break this down:
1) Here we see the dead rising and shouting for joy.
2) God invites them in and tells them to enter their rooms. Notice He says “your” rooms. Jesus said He goes to prepare a place for us.
3) God’s wrath comes upon the earth
4) The ones in their rooms come out when the wrath is over.
It is clearly talking about the same end time event.
God is not an author of confusion. He gave us the simple answer. Why would He tell us that we have rooms waiting for us in Heaven if we never get to use them?
Yes, Prepper, the same end time events but given “Scripture is to be taken literally” the word being translated – H2315 – cheder – literally means “bedroom” and this word occurs 38 times leaving little doubt as to Isaiah’s meaning.
The kind of room where Joseph wept, the kind of room that Samson was barred from entering, the kind of room infested with frogs etc, etc.
On the other hand the word – G3438 – moné – is used only twice, by Jesus, and as Truthseeker has already pointed out this infers the positions of authority and reign of the Saints.
You have not answered my question, Mr Creamer, instead you cobble together incongruous passages and that will not do.
On another note you say…
“God is not an author of confusion.”
… so perhaps you might explain the Tower of Babel narrative? Who was it that confounded the people?
Here, Teacher, you make the grievous error of cherry picking Scripture to suit yourself. The word being translated in 1 Cor 14:26-40 – G181 – akatastasia – must be antonymous to “peace” or the passage makes little sense. Read in context it is plain to see that the lesson is about keeping order by not having everyone speaking at once or at cross purposes.
This point is fully supported by Paul’s conclusion…
“But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.”
… innit?
Enough with your opinions, Brett, let’s be holding to the word as it is written.
prepper
I will make one more comment.
If you truly believe we should take the KJ “Version” or any other man made “translation” and simply believe it and take it– word for word — I would caution you to be very very careful not to let your eye offend you as Christ said you must pluck it out and the same with your hand or any other body part. and also remember Christ wants you to become as a little child. YOU are not ‘child like’ to me.
And don’t forget Christ said if we do not drink HIS blood and eat HIS flesh we are none of HIS.
The word translated mansion is use only one or two times in the entirety of God’s Word and can mean a place or a position.
Lastly I recommend you read Isaiah 28: 9 -13, God through Isaiah is telling those who study His Word that it must be done in a certain way and then God explains why it is written in this way –
“that they might go and FALL BACKWARD AND BE BROKEN AND SNARED AND TAKEN”.
the vast majority of the 2 billion so called christians are clueless,
they simply believe what some equally clueless person has told them to believe.
Ps. I do not believe you — have a nice life
You said: “Here, Teacher, you make the grievous error of cherry picking Scripture to suit yours elf. The word being translated in 1 Cor 14:26-40 – G181 – akatastasia – must be antonymous to “peace” or the passage makes little sense. Read in context it is plain to see that the lesson is about keeping order by not having everyone speaking at once or at cross purposes.”
You say I am cherry picking verses? Ok. Let’s be Bereans and look at the real meanings of the words. You are off a bit my friend.
Isa. 26:20 – “Room”
2315. cheder ►
Strong’s Concordance
cheder: a chamber, room
Original Word: חֶ֫דֶר
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: cheder
Phonetic Spelling: (kheh’-der)
Short Definition: bedroom
John 14:2 – “Rooms”
3438. moné ►
Strong’s Concordance
moné: an abiding, an abode
Original Word: μονή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: moné
Phonetic Spelling: (mon-ay’)
Short Definition: lodging, dwelling-place, room
Definition: lodging, dwelling-place, room, abode, mansion.
Before you accuse me of cherry picking, please explain Isa 26 to me. You yourself said it is an end time verse. Please explain where the dead go before the wrath comes?
In John 14 Jesus first use of the word “room” is clarified by his second use where he says…
“and we will come to them and make our home with them”
… it’s the same Greek word, after all, but you say that the first means room whereas Scripture holds that it means abode.
More importantly however, based on John 14:23, who goes to whom?
So are you trying to say that Jesus goes to prepare an authority for us? They why would He mention His father’s house? What is He preparing in Heaven if you think we will be down here on earth?
You say I am using my opinion, but I am using scripture and scripture backs up scripture. You have no given me any meaning to the texts I supplied, nor have you proven where I am using opinion. I’ve given enough contradictions in my article above and you haven’t touched on anything but the meanings of the word “room”?
You said…
“same rooms that Jesus has created for us” and “God is not an author of confusion”
… both of which, Discreet Prepper, are your erroneous opinion not Scripture. Did Isaiah state that the rooms are of the Father’s house or did Jesus/John expressly refer to Isaiah’s prophecy? No? Then it remains your opinion.
Do the houses of Judah, Israel or David have rooms?
You asked…
“Please explain where the dead go before the wrath comes?”
… and i’m not sure what you mean but if i hazard to guess then i’m unable to see the relevance to this debate.
Oh we will get to the remainder of your article, for i notice other instances where you have incorrectly parsed the word, but right now we’re stuck trying to weed out what you can only have learned from men.
We’re stuck because your article’s false premise, Brett, is fundamental to the case you attempt to build and by exposing your assumption your house of cards falls down.
You have now failed to answer two of my questions, teacher, is this the best i can expect?
Is he talking? I hear him not. Or is he pursuing? Perhaps he is on a journey. Or, peradventure he is asleep, and must be awakened.
I just wish am123 were here to see this…..
Mayhem
Like you I have been commenting of BIN for a while and the lack of critical thinking skills never ceases to amaze me.
I have grand kids and they are not being taught logic or critical thinking or even simple common sense for that matter.
But on BIN one can count on one hand those that have these skills.
We live in very troubling times and when it begins to get rough these folks are going to do some very bad things.
They will think they are doing God a favor.
Thanks for the lesson on critical thinking. I really thought you were going to try to prove me wrong through scripture. So far, you haven’t proved anything. Since you are going to endlessly beat around the bush and not discuss the topic at hand, I am finished with this conversation. God bless!
I have a question for you, Prepper. I wonder whether you might be willing to offer your answer:
How many times will the Sun and Moon be darkened in the latter days of this age, before the Son of Man returns?
prepper
No one can prove anything to another — it can only be proven to ones self — by ones self.
God never told anyone they must “prove” scripture to another — it is put before them and it is up to the individual to prove or disprove.
We are to prove all things and that can only be done in ones mind.
I expect to change not one mind here on BIN — logic and clear scriptures avail for nothing, there is always a way to negate.
Satan has completely deceived this entire world and it will remain deceived until Christ brings the LIGHT of Truth to this Earth.
Christ said many are called and “few” are chosen — Few – not 2 billion.
and many will say in that day “have we not cast out demons and done many wonderful works — and the reply of Christ is priceless: “depart from me you that work iniquity”.
prepper do you know what iniquity is? it is not obeying the LAW the Statutes and the Judgments.
the Law Christ is writing in our minds and hearts is the TORAH.
Look it up in Jeremiah 31: 33.
PS; God is not using an actual ball point pin to write anything, it is symbolism to confuse those that are not to understand at this time.
d.p. been watching the comments unfold and was intrigued by something Medina said about the rooms being in the new Jerusalem which is coming down from heaven.
I would say that the ” room ” is outside of the city. I believe John 14:2-3 and Isaiah 26:20-21 both talk about what Catholics call Purgatory. ( based on my personnel revelation, given to me during my conversion event).
Exodus : 40 3-6 And shalt put the ark in it, and shalt let down the veil before it:
And thou shalt bring in the table, and set upon it the things that are commanded according to the rite. The candlestick, shall stand with it lamps,
And the alter of gold whereon the incense is burnt, before the ark of the testimony. Thou shalt put the hanging in the entry of the tabernacle, ( could add 7-15 )
( should of added Hebrews 8: 10-13)
Hebrews 9:2-3 For there was a tabernacle made the first, wherein were the candlesticks, and the table, and the setting forth of loaves. which is called the holy.
And after the second veil, the tabernacle, which is called the holy of holies: (could add the whole chapter, but will highlight 2)
Hebrews 9: 16 For where there is a testament, the death of the testor must of necessity come in.
Hebrews 9: 24 For Jesus is not entered into the holies made with hands , the patterns of the true : but into heaven itself, that he may appear now in the presence of God for us.
Jesus makes you this room ( the few ) and then comes back to take you where I AM. this is where the final purification takes place for those that die in Christ, for some (few) it can mostly be done here on earth. with a little fine tuning needed after death.
the “Rapture” I only see happening for the Elect or 144,000
I feel these 144,000 will be living, during the time of his coming, and all that live will see his coming, so not pre -trib but mid or during the tribulation.
In Isaiah 26:20 the second part of it ” hide thyself a little for a moment, until the indignation pass away” I read this and think of Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the whole world to try them that dwell upon the earth, and 6:9-11, And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of God. and for the testimony which they held.10 And they cried out with a loud voice, saying how long, O Lord( holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given to every one of them one; and it was said to them, that they should rest for a little time, till their fellow servants, and their brethren , who are to be slain, even as they, should be filled up. Revelation 7:3 Saying: Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees. till we sign the servants of our God in their foreheads.
so we have martyrs and servants that must be filled
According to the Book of Revelation, 4 times. I don’t know about any other additional eclipses that are coming.
Revelation 6:12 – I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red …
Revelation 8:12 – The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way.
Revelation 9:2 – He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.
Revelation 16:10 – Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,
Prepper,
The very first of the four examples you show (three, actually, as number four says nothing at all about the Sun being darkened; only a ‘kingdom’ being darkened; therefore number four does not meet the criteria), Revelation 6:12, occurs AFTER five seals have been opened and AFTER the Four Horsemen have been dispatched to run through the land.
Revelation 6:12
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
So the Sun and Moon are darkened and the stars fall to the Earth. Does that ring any bells?
Matthew 24:29
Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
The Tribulation is now PASSED, but the dead have not been raised. The Tribulation concludes BEFORE the Wrath of God is disbursed throughout the world, as seen below and in the Book of Revelation.
You wrote:
“In the passage (Isaiah 26) it clearly states the dead rise before God’s wrath (verse 20).”
Let’s assume you’re right and God’s Wrath is commensurate with the ‘indignation’ spoken of in Isaiah 26:20.
Isaiah 26:19
Thy dead [יִֽחְי֣וּ] (mê·ṯe·ḵā) (men) shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isaiah 26:20
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
But the Wrath of God doesn’t come until Revelation 11:18
Revelation 8:12
And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Edit to add:
The last verse I posted above should have been Revelation 11:18 and not Revelation 8:12…
Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Wrath is in chapter 6:
Revelation 6:16-17 – and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Also, Luke 21 says before all these things:
Luke 21:25-28 – 25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28 “But WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO TAKE PLACE, straighten up and LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, BECAUSE YOUR REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR.”
There are 2 gatherings. One for the church (Isa 26 + Luke 21) and for Israel (Matt 24).
Who are the people in Revelation 4 who are singing about their redemption in Revelation 5? Who are the ones whom came out of the tribulation in Chapter 7? If we are not raptured until the end, there should be no one praising the Lord for His sacrifice for us in Revelation chapter 5.
“Also, Luke 21 says before all these things…”
Whose argument are you making? You quoted:
“Luke 21:25-28 – 25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28 “But WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO TAKE PLACE, straighten up and LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, BECAUSE YOUR REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR.”
Signs in the Heavens FIRST. Son of Man coming in the clouds NEXT. Your only option for a workaround at this point would be:
“There are 2 gatherings. One for the church (Isa 26 + Luke 21) and for Israel (Matt 24).”
Ah. Two gatherings. Now you may show me (please) where in Scripture it says anything about two gatherings. And we can assume you mean two gatherings PRIOR to, or at least simultaneous with, the first resurrection, yes? There are two resurrections spoken of in Revelation. But the second comes after the thousand year reign and that cannot be what you are referring to. So please show two gatherings in Scripture, one (as you say) for the Church; the other for Israel.
@ Beef Supreme –
I’ll try to make this very clear. We are trying to figure out when the gathering of God’s people will take place, correct? The following verse talks about the fact that we will be gathered to Him.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-11 – 1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him…
It is very clear there will be a gathering. If all the scriptures point to the same event and described them exactly the same way, I would be fine with it, but they do not. There are contradictions in the scriptures where one verse says “before” and another verse says “after”. There are some verses that show a timeline of wrath, then a gathering whereas there are other verses that show a gathering and then wrath. Since God is not a liar and all scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit, then the scriptures are showing 2 different events. Since Israel and the church are two different entities and the church was promised by the Lord several times to protect us from His wrath, then the gatherings are two separate events: one for the church and one for Israel. Let me show you the contradictions and maybe you can see where I am coming from:
These events show the Lord gathering AFTER His wrath:
Matthew 24:29-31 – 29 “But IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
Mark 13:24-26 – 24 “But in those days, FOLLOWING that distress, “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
These events show the Lord gathering BEFORE His wrath:
Luke 21:25-28 – 25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 “Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28 “But WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO TAKE PLACE, straighten up and LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, BECAUSE YOUR REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR.”
Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 “Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. 20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity”
These events show Jesus gathering His people:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air
These events show the angels gathering His people:
Matthew 24:29-31 – 29 “But IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
These events show Jesus bringing His people at the end:
Revelation 19:14 – The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (to clarify, Rev 19:8 – “Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.”)
Zechariah 14:4-5 – 4 “In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and ALL THE HOLY ONES WITH HIM!”
These events show Jesus coming for His people at the end:
Matthew 24:29-31 – 29 “But IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
If the Lord takes us at the end, then why do the following passages show that He takes some Christians and put them in a room?
Matthew 25:1-13 – 1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ 7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ 9 “ ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’ 12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 “Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. 20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity”
If the Lord takes us at the end, then why are there Christians in Heaven who sing about their redemption and it plainly says that they have come out of the tribulation before His wrath and destruction takes place?
Revelation 5:9-10 – 9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And have made us unto our God a kingdom and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”
Revelation 6:9-11 – 9 “When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.”
Revelation 7:9-10 – 9 “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”… 14 “I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
No one can go to Heaven until He calls us there, so once again, how can there be humans in Heaven in Revelation4?
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – 16 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.”
John 14:1-6 – 1 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 “And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
This timeline cannot be refuted:
Revelation 19:1-16 – 1 After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2 BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.” 3 And a second time they said, “Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER.” 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne saying, “Amen. Hallelujah!” 5 And a voice came from the throne, saying, “Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great.” 6Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. 7 “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he said to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’”
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
In the above passage, there are clearly humans in Heaven who then come back with God on horseback. These are the Christians who are coming back with the Lord to gather the rest of His people Israel so they can be brought to the marriage supper of the lamb.
So far I have seen:
He comes and gathers us AFTER His wrath.
He comes and gathers us BEFORE His wrath.
He gathers us and puts us in rooms.
He come back with us on horses.
He calls us up to the clouds.
He comes to the earth to gather us.
The only way to explain the difference is that there are 2 gatherings. One is for the church (who was not promised wrath) and one is for Israel (who was promised wrath).
Your claim is:
“Israel and the church are two different entities…”
And I suggest to you nothing could be further from the truth. When I read Scripture I see only ONE Body of Messiah spoken of; and ONE Israel. The two are the same. If a person is OF the Body, then that person IS Israel. That person IS Abraham’s seed.
“Since Israel and the church are two different entities and the church was promised by the Lord several times to protect us from His wrath, then the gatherings are two separate events…”
This is your premise, as previously stated, and assumed to be the basis of your argument. However, this should not be a premise – it should only be a conclusion. You should not be resting your argument on a conclusion. But that is precisely what you have done here.
“Let me show you the contradictions and maybe you can see where I am coming from…”
Very well. You wrote:
“These events show the Lord gathering AFTER His wrath…”
And you then quoted from Matthew 24 and you quoted from Mark 13 by way of examples showing Him returning AFTER the outpouring of His wrath. And that is the timeline as it appears in Scripture; first Tribulation, then Wrath, then HIS RETURN. But here comes your problem, where you next attempt to provide verses which contradict that timeline. You quoted:
“Luke 21:25-28 – 25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken…”
All of this is perfectly consistent with the periods INCLUDING the Time of Jacob’s Trouble AND the outpouring of His wrath. What is there in the above verses which you think puts the described events at some other time? Continuing:
“27 “THEN”…
Emphasis mine. Note the word. THEN.
“…THEN they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.”
Continuing:
“28 “But WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO TAKE PLACE, straighten up and LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, BECAUSE YOUR REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR.””
Drawing near = engizei (ἐγγίζει) present tense active verb, third person singular variant of eggizo (ἐγγίζω), Strong’s Concordance number G1448:
From G1451; to make NEAR, that is, (reflexively) APPROACH: – approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.
That is decisively NOT the same thing as BE AT HAND.
Because your redemption is drawing near. ‘IS DRAWING NEAR’ does not mean redemption comes as these things begin. The verse does NOT say; when these things begin to take place, your redemption HAS ARRIVED. You are inserting meaning into the verse to make it say something other than what it very plainly says.
Continuing, you quote:
“Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 “Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. 20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity””
Note here that you assume His people entering into their rooms and closing doors behind them MUST be commensurate with being resurrected or ‘raptured’ to go live in His Mansion. Here’s the problem with that: The verse says no such thing. Your assumption rests solely in your interpretation of the verses. Isaiah NEVER said anyone would be resurrected or ‘raptured’ prior to the outpouring of His Wrath. He simply never said it, Prepper.
That is the problem with bringing your interpretation into the verses with you when you read. You are LOOKING for evidence of a pre-tribulation ‘rapture’, so you will naturally adhere to anything you think might make a good fit for the requirements of that interpretation. Rather, we should enter into the Word empty of such notions, and let ONLY the verses themselves do the teaching. Had you done that, you would never have imagined Isaiah to be addressing resurrection and ‘rapture’ when he has done nothing of the kind.
I got as far as your heading:
“These events show Jesus bringing His people at the end…”
I will have time to finish my response to the rest later in the day. But it will be shown that you are again making the same mistake – that of importing meaning into the verses which does not exist as the verses are written.
beef
Well said!
the vast majority have a premise in mind and then only in their minds force scripture to conform to their faulty premise.
It never ceases to amaze me when folks quote Paul as proof of a rapture when he says we will rise in the clouds to meet Christ — when it only states we will be with Him from then on —- there is not even one word about going back to heaven.
But this is “proof” they are going back to heaven??
beef
I have a question for you. It appears to me for some reason the vast majority simply can not use logic and when it comes to the Bible — not at all. zip 0
Has Satan blocked the minds to logic or is it just a part of carnal human nature?
This rapture dogma which is a virus of the mind is easily destroyed by logic.
Simply read Philippians 3: 21,— our vile bodies will be changed or fashioned like unto “HIS glorious body”.
In the first resurrection the dead come up out of the grave with an Immortal spirit body exactly like Christ’s immortal spirit body.
Thus — unless something from the physical world can harm the Immortal spirit body of Jesus Christ and we know that is utterly impossible —there is absolutely no need for those in the resurrection be taken to heaven for protection — they will have the same immortal spirit body as their elder brother Jesus Christ.
I do not understand why that is so hard to grasps?? If your body is invisible and can pass through solid rock why would you need protection?? Shadrach stood in the oven and either an angel or Christ stood with the 3 — and we need protection on earth for what reason??
Continuing with:
“These events show Jesus gathering His people…”
And then you quote:
“1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air…”
Now you appear to contrast the above verses with this:
“These events show the angels gathering His people…”
Quoting:
“Matthew 24:29-31 – 29 “But IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
Is there meant to be some contradiction here? Where is it? It is always written that The Son of Man will return with Power and Glory and He will come with MANY of His ‘Holy Ones’ and with His ΑΓΓΕΛΟΣ (aggelos). This is made clear by comparing and contrasting the totality of the verses which deal with His return, with particular attention to WHOM will be accompanying Him at His return. He isn’t coming alone, Prepper. And He isn’t coming twice.
You wrote:
“These events show Jesus bringing His people at the end…”
…and then quoted from Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14. When He comes, the HOLY ONES (קְדֹשִׁים qâdôshim) are coming with Him. There isn’t a verse in Scripture that contradicts the truth of that statement and there isn’t anything to show two (additional) comings.
“These events show Jesus coming for His people at the end…”
So because you see Messiah coming WITH His קְדֹשִׁים qâdôshim, you imagine a contradiction with the fact that He is coming FOR His people who are alive and yet remain? Is this your argument? And because of this perceived contrast, you imagine TWO separate comings? Isn’t it rather because you carry a wayward tradition with you into the Scriptures? You’re looking for something that’s not there, Prepper. And you’re forcing the Word to do your bidding. That is not the way to arrive at a solid understanding of Truth.
You quote:
“Matthew 24:29-31 – 29 “But IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.””
…and then you ask:
“If the Lord takes us at the end, then why do the following passages show that He takes some Christians and put them in a room?”
Let us see. Here we have:
“Matthew 25:1-13 – 1 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.”
Went out to meet the BRIDEGROOM. Who goes out to meet the Bridegroom? The Bride does. And who is the Bride? Is the Bride the Church? Nothing in Scripture says she is. Is the Bride the Body of Messiah? For this we look to our original model – Eve in the Garden of Eden. Eve was taken OUT of the Body of the First Adam. The Bride will be taken OUT of the Body of the Second Adam. The Bride is not the ‘Church.’ She is not the Body. She is OF the Body. Now does the fact that some who say to Him, ‘Lord, Lord’ will not be accepted into the Millennial Reign, contradict with any other part of the Narrative of Salvation? No, it does not. Not all have a part in the first resurrection. Some who call themselves followers of the Lamb will NOT be accepted into His Rest. They will not have a part in His thousand year reign. Many (perhaps you and I) will have their part in the second resurrection.
Continuing, you quote:
“Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 “Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. 20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms and close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. 21 For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.”…”
…and you ask:
“If the Lord takes us at the end, then why are there Christians in Heaven who sing about their redemption and it plainly says that they have come out of the tribulation before His wrath and destruction takes place?”
Who comes out of Great Tribulation? Is it ONLY those who survive until the end? Do not those (many) who will die during the Tribulation come OUT of the Tribulation? Of course they do. Where is it written that those who come out of Great Tribulation are those who survive until the end? No such thing is written. Many believers will be killed in the Great Tribulation, not loving their lives to the end but rather laying down their lives for their friends and otherwise laying down their lives in service to Messiah. It is they who make their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb.
Is the Body different from the Head?
“Revelation 5:9-10 – 9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open the seals thereof: for YOU WERE SLAIN…”
So too will many members of His Body be likewise slain. That is something many believers have to look forward to – and it is something indeed to look forward to. Sacrifice. We too will participate in His suffering, exactly as He himself said and exactly as Paul said.
Matthew 7:14
Because STRAIT is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
STRAIT = G4728 στενός stenos: Probably from the base of G2476; narrow (from obstacles standing close about): – strait.
NARROW = G2346 θλίβω thlibō [Pay careful attention to this, Prepper…] Akin to the base of G5147; to crowd (literally or figuratively): – afflict, narrow, throng, SUFFER TRIBULATION, trouble.
To suffer Tribulation. To suffer Trouble. That is the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, in the fullest sense of the word. THAT, my friend, is the meaning of the Narrow Way which leadeth unto Life. We go through it, Prepper. We should not be looking for or hoping for a way around it; most especially when Scripture is NOT the least bit ambivalent about the matter.
“No one can go to Heaven until He calls us there, so once again, how can there be humans in Heaven in Revelation 4?”
You ask this question as if it were proof of your argument. How can they be there? They are WITH HIM where He is:
Philippians 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better…
To depart and to BE WITH CHRIST…
ΚΑΙ ΣΘΝ ΧΡΙΣΤΩ
Paul says that to die is for him gain; that he might be WITH Christ. That is what Paul says in plain language. Paul does not say, at some point after he dies he will be with Christ; he says to die is to be with Christ.
You wrote:
“This timeline cannot be refuted…”
You then quoted Revelation 19:1-16 and wrote:
“In the above passage, there are clearly humans in Heaven who then come back with God on horseback.”
Indeed there are. Who are the 24 elders? Do you imagine they are folks who will be ‘raptured’ out of here prior to the Great Tribulation? Why, when nothing of the kind is ever hinted at in Scripture?
“These are the Christians who are coming back with the Lord to gather the rest of His people Israel so they can be brought to the marriage supper of the lamb.”
That is a wildly flawed conclusion to reach in light of the words of Scripture, as they exist on the page.
“The only way to explain the difference is that there are 2 gatherings.”
Not even close. There is a much easier way to explain your apparent ‘differences’ and it is one which is in perfect keeping with the Word of God, as it is plainly written.
“One is for the church (who was not promised wrath) and one is for Israel (who was promised wrath).”
In order for your version of events to be true, something like this must indeed be the case. But the problem is, there is no evidence in support of your argument found anywhere in the written Word. If men didn’t teach you this idea about pre-tribulation ‘rapture’, you never, not in ten million years, would have come up with it on your own merely by reading the words of Scripture as they are written.
Truthseeker,
It’s a simple matter of what you bring with you into the Book when you study it. ANYTHNG we take with us will skew our perception of Truth. And to some extent or other, whether we’re aware of it or not, we all do it.
That’s why Paul says:
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the councils of the heart…
Beef
I came to the Word of God with nothing from any church, my mother and father took me to sunday school which taught me “Jesus loves me” but even with that I only went for a few years and only every now and then.
It was much simpler for me I came with no knowledge. LOL I learned more from the movies then anything else. I watched Samson and Delilah and the 10 Commandments.
Truthseeker
[cough]
—–
Medina
I understand now Truthseeker that this BOOK you have been so ardently studying has been the TV Guide.
You have completely lost the plot on behalf of Murikas politicians and Church of the MSM. Give my best to Miley Cyrus.
Truthseeker
median
you are so funny !! — hey have you seen the price of oil and the negative interest rates?? Medina — You are going to “love” what is just ahead.
Ps milly cypus what is that?,, I have not watched TV in about 10 years so I have no clue what the MSM is up to now.
—-
[cough]
I used to think “rapture ready’ was a term invented by religiou wingnuts, but you have less time than you think to be just that. confess your sins now. if you hesitate it will be too late.
All of this has been erroneously interpreted through the prism of a materialistic-thinking mind. And all materialists are atheists. It’s as incredibly fear-based as it is off the mark. My condolences to those who are looking for an easy way out as they carry on in a way that the Vatican has laid down.
you need to repent now or die in your spirit
Matthew 20:16
THE APOCALYPSE OF ST. JOHN THE APOSTLE 3:8-9 I KNOW THY WORKS. Behold, I have given before the a door opened, which no man can shut: because thou hast a little strength, and has kept my word and has not denied my name.
Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of satan, who say they are Jews , and are not, but do lie. Behold,I will make them to come and adore before thy feet .And they shall know that I LOVED YOU.
Wow! …. just wow.
I never seen so much controversy over a subject from the bible. I see this alot these-days, and it just makes me wonder, while everyone is arguing about this subject, who’s looking after the widows and the orphans?
Personally, i couldn’t care less when i will be raptured, or even if i will be raptured at all. I accept the fact that whatever God has in store for me, his grace will be sufficient.
Is it really so important as to “when” it will happen? i could think of a few hundred more important subjects we could all be discussing instead of this. Why don’t we all just trust in our God (and his will) and do what good we can, while we can, and stop trying to work out his “day’s and hour’s” I fail to see what the benefit is of dwelling on this teaching. If it happens it happens, if it doesn’t it doesn’t.
My 2c