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Would Jesus Scold Trump on Refugees?

Friday, February 24, 2017 11:42
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By Peter Heck  //  AmericanThinker.com

Who would have thought that just a month into the Trump presidency and the progressive left would be demanding our society ask itself what Jesus would do about foreign refugees? Apparently on some issues, that wall between church and state they’re always harping about is almost as porous as our southern border.

But before we get caught up in appropriating Jesus to our side of a political issue, I think it is important to be wary of those who prefer selective application of Biblical principle when it comes to the great moral issues of our day. If God’s word should inform our people how we should think and act relative to the plight of the immigrant or refugee (it should), it should also inform our people how we should think and act relative to race relations, abortion, pornography, and sexuality.

Those who demand Scriptural fidelity to one, but not another, are likely far more interested in twisting and manipulating the Bible to promote personal political agendas than they are understanding and properly applying Biblical values.

For instance, notice the glaring paradox that unfolds when progressive faith leaders on the left like Al Sharpton remind everyone that, “Jesus was a refugee.” Obviously, they are referencing the escape of Mary and Joseph to Egypt in the years shortly after the birth of Jesus. Making their case for an open-door refugee policy where the United States government places no restrictions on access to the country and its resources from those fleeing persecution in foreign lands, these progressives correctly note that Mary and Joseph sought refuge in a foreign country to escape the mass infanticide decree of King Herod.

What is peculiar about that is that the very same political movement citing this account of Scripture is the same one that has been adamantly demanding for a generation that the teachings of Jesus be stricken from the law so as to allow the continued legalization of mass infanticide.

That is not to say that all Biblical arguments relative to refugees are as flimsy. Progressive faith leaders often point to the admonition of Hebrews 13:2: “Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.” There’s no question that we are given a direct and unequivocal personal command to be hospitable to those in need. Coupled with the directives Jesus gives us personally in Luke 14 and in the parable of the Good Samaritan, living an inhospitable life lacking in personal compassion is simply irreconcilable with godly, Christian conduct.

It’s fair to assume that is why Christians, individually and collectively, remain the single greatest charitable giving force in the world by far. But when it comes to refugee policy we are contemplating more than just personal commands. We must endeavor to determine whether or not it is Biblically sound to apply such individual instructions to the work of civil government.

When famed evangelical Christian leader Franklin Graham articulated one perspective on this question saying, “We have to realize that the president’s job is not the same as the job of the church,” progressive Christian activist Shane Claiborne immediately criticized him. Claiborne tweeted in response: “No. It is theological malpractice to say that the president is exempt from the Sermon on the Mount or not accountable to Christ’s commands.”

But that isn’t what Graham said. He accurately affirmed that while all Christians are held to the same standard of private, personal morality, the Biblical expectations for ministers are different than those for government leaders. Far from heretical, such an understanding is essential to any logical, consistent reading of Scripture. Imagine the turmoil that would ensue, for instance, if we pretended the command of Jesus not to judge another (Matthew 7:1) applied to American courtrooms. Or consider the calamity if we assumed our instruction to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39) was to be the national security policy of our civil government.

Claiborne’s failure to grasp this fairly obvious reality was perplexing until just days later when he again lashed out at Graham on the issue, this time in a very personal way. After Graham had offered his opinion that we lock our doors at night, “Not because you hate the people on the outside, but because you love the people on the inside,” Claiborne compared him to the villains in Christ’s parable of the Good Samaritan. He chided, “As the religious folks turned a blind eye, the Samaritan was more concerned about the man in the ditch than himself.”

At this point I realized that Claiborne was far less concerned with understanding a Biblical approach to refugees than he was in grandstanding and attacking a fellow Christian publicly. After all, it takes an extraordinary amount of personal animus and tunnel vision to miss that Franklin Graham’s ministry literally does the work of the Good Samaritan all over the world, regardless of creed, nationality, or ethnicity.

Minds dedicated to Scriptural fidelity will ignore unserious voices such as Claiborne’s and instead work to contextually understand and apply God’s truth. We will ask whether it is responsible to extrapolate the teaching of Hebrews outward into a command on civil government.

To say that Christians have a duty to care for widows, orphans, the impoverished, and the endangered is unquestioned (by anyone) Biblical truth. To say that such care can only be provided by enacting open-door refugee policies that may or may not compromise the security of citizens (including widows, orphans, and the impoverished here at home) is an entirely different proposition. It’s a proposition that, to this point, does not appear to be supported by Scripture.

Peter Heck is a speaker, author and teacher. Follow him @peterheck, email peter@peterheck.com or visit www.peterheck.com.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/02/would_jesus_scold_trump_on_refugees.html#ixzz4Zd4uosY1 

More great articles here: http://americanthinker.com
 

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  • Hey Christians, Romans 13 states that we are to respect government and the leaders thereof for they are all appointed by God. Obama wanted to let all the aliens in and Trump wants most of them out. God sure does seem to change His mind a lot! At least according to the Bible and Paul.
    https://seethechrist.com

    • The “Christians” corrupted Jesuit translations probably do say that as they were put out by Rome (KJV, etc). The original scriptures do not.
      RomaniYA 13
      1 Let every soul be in subjection only to The Most High Liberator, for there is no True Liberty, except from YAHUWAH and those freedoms which we presently have are all ordained by EL YAH of All Creation.
      2 Therefore he who resists liberty, resists The Word of YAHUWAH and those who stand against His freedoms will receive to themselves His judgement.

      • I appreciate your reply. All translations and copies of the New Testament have been corrupted and were written ex post facto.which is my primary point. The so-called originals were written in Greek, Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic perhaps Hebrew. If Jesus was the “Son of God” or God “incarnate” why didn’t He personally write the words Himself? Why didn’t Jesus instruct His Apostles to write everything down and protect it? Why couldn’t Jesus be sure we were left with undeniable and irrefutable proof of what He said and did? If that isn’t enough to convince anyone then let’s just look at it this way:Jesus could heal the sick, raise the dead including Himself and perform some 30 odd other miracles but for some unexplained reason He just couldn’t write. Based on this we can only assume that God/Jesus is illiterate. I don’t think so.

        • JDP…OVER THE CENTURIES THE SCRIBES COPIED THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES, JESUS TAUGHT 12 MEN APOSTLES HIS COMMANDMENTS AND FAITH, IN TURN THEY WERE TO GO OUT 2 BY 2 and teach the same to each family contacted, Jesus knew that in the future there would be more to carry on the faith of his work, In his day they did not have paper to write on like we have today, papyrus may not have been all that plentiful besides it would take away time from his teaching. Because Jesus was God incarnate he knew the future outcome and did not need to write what he had spoke, the 5 books of moses was already written and had been kept up by the scribes, He read from them in the Synagogue while teaching. Greek was the main language of the day whereby we got the Septuagint 300 years before the Crucifixion, Others had already written and Jesus was aware of it.

          • Your comment sounds good, to those with itchy ears, but unfortunately you left out some extraordinarily important facts. Being you cited the Septuagint I assume you want to look at what books came first, so lets do that. The Old Testament as illustrated in the Bible is mostly the a re-manufacturing of others prior work. Why didn’t you point to the Enuma Elis, Epic of Gilgamesh, Hammurabi Code, The Egyptian Book of the Dead and Amenemope which predate the Old Testament? The plagiarism is obvious to those truthful enough to see it. Also don’t you find it at all odd that Moses can describe his own death and funeral? Moses was still writing after he had passed on? To learn more accurate Bible History both New Testament and Old Testament check this out!

            Yale University for Bible knowledge it’s free!

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo-YL-lv3RY&list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyuvTEbD-Ei0JdMUujXfyWi

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQ2TS1CiDY&list=PL279CFA55C51E75E0

            Perhaps you can teach them a thing or two!

          • @ Rex Ivy Productions

            “The plagiarism is obvious to those truthful enough to see it. ”

            There is a truthful man around here offing cold hard cash to anyone who can prove such a statement.

            What do you say King Ivy ?

          • That’s ten thousand dollars (US).

            Enough talk.

            Bring the proof of plagiarism right here and collect your prize.

            And no one cares to hear you whining about not wanting money.

            The point of the bounty is that you CAN’T substantiate your slander against the Scriptures.

            Now get busy, big boy.

          • Rex Ivy Productions

            Enuma Elis, Epic of Gilgamesh, Hammurabi Code, The Egyptian Book of the Dead and Amenemope

            ===============

            All 0f these are plagiarized on a daily basis by humanity.

            Gilgamesh not wanting to die and live forever for example – I totally rip that sucker off every day. BUT KEEP BLOODY AGING!

            My rules for never giving Truthseeker an inch in his tower of babble (I smiteth he every time he worship his golden lost tribes).

    • “… for they are all appointed by God…”

      This can be read as a litmus test, since people, not appointed by God, cannot be leaders.

      Was it not also said of the Romans, to render unto Caesar?

    • Rex – There is difference between “appointed” and “impostor”.
      When Israel wanted a king over them, He gave them one after they rejected God and it went down hill from there.
      As the saying goes, you get the government you deserve.
      It’s not God who changes His mind at all, It’s the people!
      Here is a clear example of impostors against Gods will and letting them get just what they want.
      Back stabbing, bribing, back room blackmailing and even assassinations for pride and the love of money.
      “They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.” Hosea 8:4

  • jdp…Yes, help all the poor, sick and them in need, but do so without going broke we are to be good stewards of Gods gifts and resources he give us. So our country first needs to be a good steward of the resources its citizens provide via taxes, and not squander them as they are limited. So the country needs to budget for such but it doesn’t, only budges for FEMA related issues and not to good at that. Now that we have a former business man in the oval office we will see improvements between inout dollar flows 12 billion cut last month alone , we will look for more after tax restructuring and job growth. BE GOOD STEWARDS OF WHAT IS GIVEN AT HOME AND AT WORK.

  • They are not “Refugees” but economic migrants being used for slave labour and the job for them is to force wages down for everyone else on the slave plantation so that the jewsih owned banking system can make more profit from the corporations they control.

    You don’t even own the mud that your house is built on and that is why you have to pay taxes on the land so run along now and be a good little slave won’t you now

  • DK

    Strange that business that Jesus was a refugee has been put out for a while with not a shred of evidence, Herod the great killed the innocents in Jerusalem not Bethlehem(5 miles away) and 9 – 10 years before Christ. Herod had died(of Kidney failure whilst driven mad) 4 years before the birth of Christ the country was split up between his children, all at that time subject to Roman governors and the nation was extremely stable under Roman Rule(Pax Romana). It should be more truthful to say Joseph’s trade of carpentry was ‘the’ trade in the ancient Roman world, a carpenter could make a lot of money in the Egyptian building programs of Octavia 30BC which continued on for decades in this rich province of the Roman Empire.

    At this time nobody knew who Christ was, his ministry did not begin until his 30′s. Certainly neither Joseph or Mary were targeted, it may be simply that Joseph was now allowed to pay tax in the country he was working in and with a growing family needed new income.

  • Liberals want everything to be a reductio ad hitlerum. So, as a gypsie, Pole, Jew, or Mormon…do you move them all to Germany, in the era between societal collapse and impending fascism. WWJD

    Assuming that you want to judge each one, based on their individual merits (ie, vetting), or they are being persecuted, unfairly, you still face the possibility of the elect, few, chosen, Christian foreigners, being dumped onto a country, which does not want them.

    Is it conscientious.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

    Even after Freeway Rick Ross and the Eric Holder scandal, it still doesn’t occur to the author, that social undesirables can be willfully imported, for destructive purposes, like the Reichstag Fire, which is sometimes attributed to that administration. There is a line of discussion, in which criminal patsies are used to entrench govt interests, ie, The Enabling Act.

    This discussion requires that they are being scapegoated, unfairly.

    But, we’re all going to hang around, and have a polite, academical discussion, about it.

    And, everyone will be treated fairly.

    Even the disenfranchised, odd-man-out, being blamed for the fall of humanity. :neutral:

    He should stay here, so admitted bigots can discuss his contributions to society.

    Many of these people have adopted a migratory lifestyle choice, like a seasonal animal, or, at the very least, should be discouraged from immigrating into an unstable, political situation.

    You should be more pragmatic, objective, abstract, because your concern trolling can get people railroaded, imo.

  • I didn’t ask for your “CASH”! What rules would there be to determine, as Caesar so brilliantly stated, “what is truth?”. No matter what proof is proffered you will simply claim that oral tradition predates hard evidence. Unfortunately for you and many others faith conquers all including the facts. I included the Yale University course on the Old Testament and I must say that I find it hard to believe you watched over 20 hrs of lectures in such a short period of time. I have investigated these topics for over 11,000 gut wrenching hours trying to prove the Bible completely true. After several exhausting years I had no choice but to conclude that most of it is man made doctrine with the purpose of controlling people. As in anything there is truth to be found but you must weed it out. I have a great many other expert sources that substantiate what I am saying but what does that matter you have faith? Israel does not own God but they sure do have sizable market share of religion.

    • Pontius Pilate was perhaps being dismissive. Which is not brilliant. It is simplistic. Alternatively, he was asking Jesus an open question, expecting Jesus to incriminate himself.

      Jesus would have understood what is going on here. Who turned millions into refugees? And why are they sent to Europe and North America? Why are leaders here complicit? The plan has been under development since the 1920s and Kalergi’s book.

      Here is an introduction: http://www.infowars.com/the-kalergi-plan/

      The author is too polite to mention that Kalergi called Jews “the new Master Race.”

      • Call him by his proper name, Ralph.

        Coudenhove-Kalergi.

        (Richard von)

        This way, anyone so inclined will have a more solid jumping-off point for self-elucidation.

        But Infowars, Ralph? That’s your recommendation for a primer into such an important subject? You surprise me. But the reasons for your fantastic beliefs are now somewhat explicated. Lean to papist legends and Alex Jones for your framework and you’ll be tilting windmills in the shortest of order.

        Gird up your loins, wayfarer.

        • 1. Deal with the facts. It doesn’t matter WHERE you find a good overview.

          You brainwash yourself, by excluding information from people you disagree with.

          2. Kalergi is good enough, for a search term. It’s like “Frankenstein.” Do you NEED his full name, and the address of his castle?

          3. Is it not absurd to call me by someone else’s name, in the same post as your quibble about Kalergi’s name?

          • Ralph wrote:

            “It doesn’t matter WHERE you find a good overview.”

            I couldn’t agree more. My point is that Jones is never a good source for a good overview. The reason is that Jones and his enterprise have an over-arching agenda which taints all of the information disseminated by that enterprise. You even hinted at that very taint when you wrote:

            “The author is too polite to mention that Kalergi called Jews “the new Master Race.””

            What you count politeness I account for through less flattering ideas.

            “You brainwash yourself, by excluding information from people you disagree with.”

            Again, you assume. I take my information from a very wide variety of sources. Though conservative, I read the Huffington Post and I occasionally torture myself by watching MSNBC. These things I do not because I exclude information I disagree with, but because I make it my habit to imbibe a variety of informational resources. I suggest only that, if you intend to direct folks who have not yet heard of the Coudenhove-Kalergi plan, you do well to direct them to a more pristine source of information than Alex Jones and Infor Wars.

            “Kalergi is good enough, for a search term.”

            It is if you’re being lazy. I catch you engaging in lazy thinking quite often, Ralph.

            “It’s like “Frankenstein.” Do you NEED his full name…”

            No it isn’t. Frankenstein is a complete surname. Kalergi is only the last portion of a hyphenated surname. Laziness, Ralph. Stop defending it.

            “Is it not absurd to call me by someone else’s name, in the same post as your quibble about Kalergi’s name?”

            And what, is LifeIs your actual name? What difference is one fake name over another? And besides, I only assign alternate names to BIN contributors for whom I have some regard. It’s actually a sign of respect, even though I’m sure you see it only as mockery. You’re too stoic Ralph. Interject some humor into your life. (Which would be an easier feat, if only you weren’t convinced of your imminent demise at the hands of rogue invisible planets because that’s how you read papist prophecies which, in all actuality, say nothing of the kind.)

          • Hmm. I’ve yet to see you dispute a single fact in the article I suggested. AND I’ve yet to see an alternative suggested.

            Of course, if you had looked, you would not have thought “Kalergi” inadequate as a search term.

            It’s something folks can remember easily. In case you can’t: Kalergi. Kalergi. Kalergi.

            This is contradictory: You do not brainwash yourself by excluding sources you disagree with. But you exclude those with “an over-arching agenda.” That you disagree with.

            FYI: Among the commentators and reporters of Infowars are Paul Joseph Watson (brilliant) and Millie Weaver (excellent)

            And this is just goofy: the idea that Huffington Post and MSNBC are more “pristine” than anybody. Their agenda has been in plain view throughout the election campaign and since.

            You’re on shaky ground, saying “more pristine.” Because “pristine” means “in perfect condition.” And some of us don’t see “perfect” as a range of conditions. In case you ran out of things to quibble about.

            You don’t know anything about my sense of humor. I don’t joke with just anybody.

            Since 1993, infrared telescopes at the South Pole, and on Mt. Graham, have been tracking Planet X. The instruments have been upgraded, since then. And there has been observation from space-based instruments, since before that.

            The message from Mary, per Lucia Santos, per Father Malachi Martin, was sealed, “probably forever” in 1960. You don’t know WHAT it says.

            We only know what Martin and Pope John Paul II indicated it said.

          • “…AND I’ve yet to see an alternative suggested.”

            Dropping the fella’s name and suggesting the seeker explore, on his own, the avenue of information associated with that name, is enough. Why steer a seeker into a bee’s nest of agenda-laden propaganda when you don’t have to?

            “…you would not have thought “Kalergi” inadequate as a search term.”

            Lazy, is what I called it. Ralph. Pay attention.

            “This is contradictory: You do not brainwash yourself by excluding sources you disagree with. But you exclude those with “an over-arching agenda.” That you disagree with.”

            No, Ralph. I don’t recommend tainted sources. Had I suggested to the folks here they should familiarize themselves with C-K and his plan, I would have done that and nothing more. Why set your imprimatur to the product of an ideologue like Jones? Especially when you don’t have to?

            “FYI: Among the commentators and reporters of Infowars are Paul Joseph Watson (brilliant) and Millie Weaver (excellent)…”

            Entertaining. But the information they disseminate is likewise tilted with an agenda. And in case you don’t know what that agenda is, Ralph, the agenda is to solidify the mind-set and the hatred of the Right against the Left. Jones is an agitator conditioning his audience into a war-footing. That’s his very job and the entire reason his outfit exists. He serves the agenda of inflaming the passions of the rabble – applying and building pressure to be released, in explosive fashion, at a time and a place of someone’s choosing.

            “And this is just goofy: the idea that Huffington Post and MSNBC are more “pristine” than anybody.”

            Oh for God’s sake. You really do try my patience sometimes, Ralph. Go re-read what I said about Huffington Post again. Carefully this time. Don’t insert outrageous meaning into my words. No wonder you’ve landed where you have re this Nibiru insanity. You are extremely careless with details.

            “In case you ran out of things to quibble about.”

            You are a never-ending fount of substance in that regard.

            “You don’t know anything about my sense of humor.”

            I know you far better than you think. I’ve been observing your habits for many years now. You’ve gone astray, terribly.

            “Since 1993, infrared telescopes at the South Pole, and on Mt. Graham…”

            Spare me the repetition. And remember, I have archived all of your promised arrival dates for this thing. You said you “personally guaranteed”. And no, I am not putting words in your mouth so don’t test me. I have urls ready to unfurl on you if you persist with that line of nonsense. Give it a rest already. Christmas came and went (as it will do again in December) and May 5th is fast approaching.

            “You don’t know WHAT it says.”

            But you do. Right? Because you’re so clever, you’ve figured it all out without reading it yourself.

            “We only know what Martin and Pope John Paul II indicated it said.”

            A liar and a super liar. Just the sort of folks we should rely on to formulate our life-directing conclusions. Karol and Malachi read a letter you didn’t read. Why don’t you leave it at that, Ralph, and find something more productive to do with your time and with your mind than chasing phantoms.

          • You haven’t been specific about this “propaganda,” because there isn’t any. It’s an article about the Kalergi plan.

            Master Race. Replace the White Christians. THAT plan. Kalergi. 1920s. The plan you see being enacted now.

            YOU said you excluded anything published by Infowars, on the grounds of “not pristine” and “over-arching agenda” and now “tainted.”

            And you did NOT exclude MSNBC or Huffington Post for any of those things.

            Which means you think they are pristine and untainted and without an overarching agenda. That’s the logic of what you said.

            If you KNEW me, you’d know I’ve been a liberal democrat all my life. You’ve misunderstood Alex Jones, but I’m not a fan of his commentary. Paul Joseph Watson is brilliant. Millie Weaver is excellent.

            For years, I’ve been sorting through what is told to us, and what is available to us. The truth about Planet X has been buried in disinformation, for decades. It’s a big secret, because global disaster is expected.

            Disinformation operatives ask the impossible, exact dates. It’s a “demand impossible amounts of proof” thing. I oblige them with estimates, and I tell them they’re based on government moves, or hints by people who would know.

            Otherwise I’m stuck with whatever disinformation is published, as to the time frame.

            When disinformation articles were giving dates in late September of 2015, I said it would be before that. Jade Helm gave us military deployment inside the US in advance of that time. And any date they give us will be wrong. See the logic? In 2015 and 2016 we heard suggestions from 2 sources that we would not or may not see Christmas of 2016. I endorsed that with a “probably.”

            MARY per Lucia per Father Martin gave us a last possible time for a global disaster, and it is fast approaching. That’s not my information. I just have every reason to believe it.

            Father Malachi Martin said a time frame was given, in the Fatima message. Which is: before the 100th anniversary of Mary’s appearances at Fatima. Martin’s exact words, in April of 1997, were, “it’s not twenty years away.”

            Pope John 23rd implicitly said there was a time frame, when he said the message is “not for our (his) time.”

            Nobody said May 5th, ever. Mary’s first appearance at Fatima was May 13, 1917.

            Oddly, this is not a public relations issue, not a credibility issue. It is a physical science issue. It is the “incoming object” the VATT was built to track. It is the cause of the global disaster referred to by John Paul II and Father Martin, and Jesus, and Mary.

            Words won’t make it go away.

          • “You haven’t been specific about this “propaganda,”…”

            This is the part where you dig in your heels and play the obstinate fool. So be it. Perhaps I’ve lent you too much credit in assuming you know better than to use a site like Info Wars for clean information. Do as you do.

            “Master Race. Replace the White Christians. THAT plan.”

            Yes. That plan.

            “The plan you see being enacted now.”

            Yes. That plan. But what you’ll never (and I do mean never) get from Jones or any of his affiliates is the ‘why’ – something it now occurs to me you yourself are yet ignorant of.

            “YOU said you excluded anything published by Infowars, on the grounds of “not pristine” and “over-arching agenda” and now “tainted.”…”

            Yes, Ralph. I did say that.

            “And you did NOT exclude MSNBC or Huffington Post for any of those things.”

            By way of demonstrating the scope of my information gathering, I pointed out sources like HuffPo and MSNBC. And I did plenty to give you to understand I view NEITHER of those sources as viable information sources. If you missed that, as it appears you have, that is owing to your own inattention to detail – not to my failing to communicate those details. Lazy thinking, Ralph. And in this case, lazy reading.

            “Which means you think they are pristine…”

            Your conclusions are wrong – as in this case, so in many others. Your handling of the facts is suspect. You used to be more careful than this. You really did.

            “If you KNEW me, you’d know I’ve been a liberal democrat all my life.”

            If, you say. I know what you are Ralph. I also know what you’re not. You’re not a poisoned-mind leftist.

            “You’ve misunderstood Alex Jones…”

            I most certainly have not.

            “For years, I’ve been sorting through what is told to us, and what is available to us.”

            And you’ve fallen prey to the most common error among self-styled information parsers: You think you’re far more clever than the rest of us and have therefore pieced together information in such a way that should make Sherlock Holmes blush with envy. But you’ve already demonstrated your ignorance of the pitfalls and the perils of web investigation. So now you’re stuck. 5 May will come and go and you’ll still be pointing to the heavens crying: The Sky Is Falling, The Sky Is Falling!!! – even after I’ve ‘reminded’ you that your personal conclusions and your personal guarantees are worth so very little. And I’m beginning to suspect your soundness of mind has gone the way of the Democratic Left in this country – which is the way of the Dodo Bird.

            “The truth about Planet X…”

            Is something YOU are not privy to. And I most certainly do not need you repeating your sales pitch to me. RALPH, I have read and re-read your sales pitch ad infinitum ad nauseam over the past two or three years and probably longer. There isn’t anything you’ve had to say on the subject I haven’t already heard you say and repeat. Your repeating it yet again will not yield you the desired effect. I can see plainly where you went wrong.

            “Otherwise I’m stuck with whatever disinformation is published, as to the time frame.”

            Hook, line and sinker.

            “When disinformation articles were giving dates in late September of 2015, I said it would be before that.”

            “Nobody said May 5th, ever.”

            Yes. You did. You personally GUARANTEED that within one year this thing would have appeared and wreaked havoc on the earth. You said so on 5 May 2016 and I can prove it. Apparently I’ve been paying more attention to your nonsense than you have.

            “Words won’t make it go away.”

            And wishing and prognostication won’t make it come.

            Get some sleep, Ralph.

          • The WHY of the Kalergi plan is in the plan itself. Not the pretext. The intended RESULT is the why.

            The intended result is Jews as “the new master race” and white Christians not existing any more.

            It’s Jewish theology. The planet was made for them, don’t you know. And when the Messiah comes, the nations will be their slaves.

            My inference is, you sympathize with these monsters and serve them. Enjoy Hell.

            About May:

            The latest possible day is associated with Mary’s 1917 appearances at Fatima. Per Father Martin. First appearance was in May.

            I don’t do specific days, I do “anytime before this” days. The month of May has only this significance:

            Given Father Martin’s understanding of what he read (a translation from Portuguese is what he read) Which led him to say, in April of 1997, “It isn’t twenty years away.”

            What Lucia Santos and Father Malachi Martin could not have guessed is what is happening in space around us IN THE TIME FRAME they gave us.

            The increase in meteors. The increase in small asteroids going past us. This is debris pushed into our path, by the charge field of Planet X.

            I am sure the Vatican can translate properly. And Father Martin could read. And Mary told the truth.

            And you don’t have a lot of time to be a clueless know-it-all.

          • “The WHY of the Kalergi plan is in the plan itself. Not the pretext. The intended RESULT is the why.”

            No, Ralph. What motivates the forces behind the C-K plan is the why. What spiritual machinations wriggle and writhe behind the curtain of strategy is the why. What biblical constructs lie behind the impulse is the why. The thing-in-itself is not the why, and it never is.

            “…white Christians not existing any more.”

            That’s the what. Not the why.

            “My inference is, you sympathize with these monsters and serve them. Enjoy Hell.”

            I see your powers of perception are as accurate now as they have been lately. Let it not be lost on you that we with whom you’ve conversed here these many years know you vastly better than you know any of us. That’s because you talk without listening. You seek without looking. And you give your answer before you have made a full and proper examination.

            “About May…”

            I asked you not to keep repeating yourself.

            “IN THE TIME FRAME they gave us.”

            The time frame they gave YOU. (And anyone foolish enough to buy what they were selling.) If I thought that after May you would refrain from any more of this nonsense, I would leave you be. But you’re proving that you plan to persist in your fantasy, no matter what. And if you plan to continue bothering folks with this noise, then I guess I plan on kicking sand in your face as I see fit.

            “And you don’t have a lot of time to be a clueless know-it-all.”

            Yes, I know. Nibiru is coming to get me. So you’ve been saying and warning now for a very long annoying time. Why don’t you pick up your Bible and resume defending the Word of God as you once did? At least then you would be doing something worthy with your time again.

    • If after eleven thousand hours of research you still can’t distinguish between a prelate and Caesar…

      …you really should seek a refund, for your time is wasted.

      And everything else you think you’ve learned is thusly tarnished by your failure to pay attention to detail.

      Also — if your hap is to debate the specifics of Bible authenticity — you’ve come to the right place. You’ve failed yourself and it seems like your intention is to bother others with your failings. So? Let’s see what you’ve got. Highlight a few of the Bible’s alleged shortcomings. And by highlight I do not mean post links to someone else’s work. If you’re so convinced of the legitimacy of your conclusions, then share the reasons for that legitimacy and for those conclusions right here and we’ll get right to work.

      • b4

        god does not read the bible-never has -never will-did not write it either–some primitive dudes in a cave wrote it–word of men-not god–end of story–no humans understand,know the ways of god–humans are too petty ,immature to know god so they make crap up,call it holy–mostly bs

        • I’m afraid you’re still too small to have this conversation, little bee four. This is a conversation which requires a mind capable of doing more than repeating the same silly sentence, over and over and over, for about a year now.

          When you’re feeling a bit more mentally energetic, let me know and I’ll show you a few things your mind can experience at a lazy beginner’s pace.

        • You b4 congratulations you have it correct and you will be mocked for it. Some people have a need to be a slave to a heavily flawed book thinking that God can be bound between it’s covers. How do they know Caesar didn’t say “what is truth”? Can they prove it? To think that I don’t know where and when else it was displayed doesn’t prove Caesar never said it. See how quick they point to the splinter in my eye while avoiding the plank in their own eye. They expect everyone to accept the books of the Bible without exception or question on the basis of oral tradition yet accept nothing from anyone else on the same basis. As you can see Cintus Supremus resorts to ridicule but was “had” with a remark that wasn’t even intended for Cintus Supremus.
          There is so much more that I can point to but why bother faith trumps facts and truth for many people. Stay on your knees God likes it that way!

          • “Some people have a need to be a slave to a heavily flawed book…”

            And other folks have the desire and the ability to resist characters like you who come here declaring truth but selling only lies.

            “How do they know Caesar didn’t say “what is truth”?”

            Aren’t you clever. You mistakenly attributed the title Caesar to Pilate and now you think you’ll slither your way out of the gaff? Dream on. You’re not in the company of idiots, friend. No one reading this exchange will fall for your ham-handed juke and jive.

            “See how quick they point to the splinter in my eye while avoiding the plank in their own eye.”

            Yet more duplicity. You came here accusing the Word of God but you’re now the victim? Going just got tough for you because you now have met folks who will defend the Word of God against your tiresome accusations. You came here to where we are and you called us out. Are you able to stand and deliver? Or are you nothing but talk.

            “They expect everyone to accept the books of the Bible without exception or question…”

            Strawman fallacy. We the defenders of Scripture, and Scripture itself, all declare that a person should examine the material for themselves. You say you have done so. But I say you cannot withstand even the briefest of examination. You will crumble almost immediately. How do I know? Because we, the other defenders of the Word and I, have met and dismantled dozens of accusers just like you over the better part of the past decade. Right here. And we all remain. The accusers have all been vanquished and have fled. Just as you will flee. Or you will learn. One or the other.

            “…on the basis of oral tradition yet accept nothing from anyone else on the same basis.”

            Oral tradition has nothing to do with this conversation. We have documented evidence. We have the Scriptures. It is slanderous accusers like you who demand that pagan traditions predate the Scriptures, but have nothing to show in support of their assertions except evidence much newer than Scripture. It is YOU who demand that oral traditions should be counted as older and more valuable than the Scriptures – not the other way around as you now pretend.

            “As you can see Cintus Supremus resorts to ridicule but was “had” with a remark that wasn’t even intended for Cintus Supremus.”

            You came here to accuse the Word of God. You have now been called out on your error. Stop whining and ready yourself to defend your lies. Otherwise, leave.

            “There is so much more that I can point to but why bother faith trumps facts and truth for many people. Stay on your knees God likes it that way!”

            There is NOTHING you can point to. You can only pretend and whine about not wanting to bother with zealots like me. You are a broken record. You and all the other liars who came before you, selling the exact same package.

          • Rex Ivy Productions

            There is so much more that I can point to but why bother faith trumps facts and truth for many people. Stay on your knees God likes it that way!

            ============

            Your psycho whore LOST little Pixel

            SUCK IT UP! :lol:

  • NO.

  • well jesus “presuming he existed at all and that wasn’t actually his name if the book is true” was broke as a joke.. he DIDN’T WORK!

  • “No one reading this exchange will fall for your ham-handed juke and jive.”

    … and it is being read, Rex Ivy, of that you can be certain and by more folk than you might imagine.

    So then; where you wrote…

    “Why didn’t you point to the Enuma Elis, Epic of Gilgamesh, Hammurabi Code, The Egyptian Book of the Dead and Amenemope which predate the Old Testament?”

    … if you feel you’re up to taking on all comers i’d be very pleased to get into that with you.

    But first; the offer of US-$10,000, herein tabled, requires proof that the fundamental concepts of christianity (ie birth, death and resurrection) were copied from earlier texts. No one is interested in arguing about universally accepted wisdom being common themes among contemporary writers.

    So make your best argument (it’s only fair the one making the claim gets the ball rolling) and be assured that i’m going nowhere until we’ve whipped the proverbial horse into a gallop. Having said that can we kick off with Amenemope because i’ve addressed the rest of your list too many times to count and the folk reading this are probably as bored as i am with that debate.

    What say you, Rex Ivy?

      • R.I.P.,

        Good luck with your dumpster fire.

      • That’s actually more of a retort than I expected from you.

        But I’ll dare to speak for a few of us here when I say that we value the opinions of rabbis with an esteem which I’m sure equals your esteem for those same opinions.

        So if you have a point to make…

        …what is it again?

      • I asked you about the Bible supposedly being copied from earlier pagan religions, Rex Ivy, yet your riposte merely accuses the Torah of being mythical. Is this how it is to be? Will you continue to throw out distractions when you’re up against it? If so you’re going to find out i’m not nearly as ignorant as you imagine.

        Further to what Cintus opined you’ll have to excuse me dismissing, out of hand, anything the Society for Humanistic Judaism…

        http://www.shj.org/humanistic-judaism/what-is-humanistic-judaism/

        … has to say with regards the Bible. A more despicable (Messiah denying, Talmudic, selfist) ideology have i yet encountered.

        The Talmud isn’t well received around these parts and with good cause…

        http://talmudical.blogspot.co.nz/

        http://www.richardboyden.com/Talmud_lies_exposed.htm

        … which brave souls can learn for themselves from the two links provided.

        • First and foremost if they are legends and fables they originated somewhere. If those stories are found in earlier works by others it is reliable to conclude that the source was the earliest works. I don’t see the point, the Old Testament dating s the article demonstrates is around 700BC or later. As far as your other comment:
          I like the reference to the Talmud for it is vitally important in the scheme of things. Personally speaking I find many of the teachings in the Talmud repulsive and regressive to humanity and I am not an adherent. Christians should be taught what is in the Talmud but that’s another topic in and of itself. You point to humanist as if it’s something bad. Jesus was a humanist in that He instructed us to love one another. Is that not human?
          Jesus never called Himself God.
          Jesus instructed on how to pray I point you to the Lord’s Prayer.
          Do you see Jesus’s name in the prayer? No you do not!
          Jesus instructs you to pray to the “Father”, “OUR FATHER” as a matter of fact.
          This is quite simple and yet completely Biblical.
          Jesus according to the Bible is not viewed upon as “God” until the Book of John. The Book of John was anonymously written somewhere between 90-110AD 60 years or more after Jesus’s death. No expert can verify who wrote John. Does that matter to you? You see it’s all theological not factual.
          The council of Nicea 325AD and the council of Constantinople 381AD was largely responsible for the codification of the trinity and the official and political agreement that Jesus will be seen as a deity and at one with God and the Holy Spirit. Look it up!
          You asked for other pagan deities that Jesus could have been copied from.
          Here they are:
          Mithras
          Horus
          Serapis
          Buddha
          Krishna
          Osiris
          Odysseus
          Romulus
          Dionysus
          Hercales
          Zoroaster
          Attis of Phrygia and so forth and so on because there are more.

          Do the work yourself and see all the similarities that exist I already did and I am long past that point. Of course you will deny the factual and maintain your normalcy bias. That of course is a place where disagreeable facts are willingly not seen or purposely misunderstood. Let face facts you wouldn’t want to pay me your $10,000. Now would you?

          At this moment I offer you a point that deserves explanation. Why are there two genealogies for Joseph? Why do they differ? What would it matter if Mary was immaculately conceived and was impregnated by the Holy Spirit? Was it because they had to show lineage to David and Adam? Did they need to make the pieces fit?

          Unfortunately you probably also believe that Paul is an Apostle of Jesus. If that’s the case you are beyond seeing……..As for me I am no slave to a book written by flawed men. I believe in God and the core message of Jesus’s teaching. No religion owns my mind or my soul. All the best and God Bless!

          • “…if they are legends and fables they originated somewhere.”

            Just ask Homer and Hesiod.

            “If those stories are found in earlier works by others it is reliable to conclude that the source was the earliest works.”

            The point is this: He who claims that anything found in the Bible is taken from earlier document sources, is himself deceived or is a liar. All who claim that the Scriptures borrowed or stole from other sources, make a false claim and ALWAYS FAIL to defend their claim when they are called to do so. The Epic of Gilgamesh records a world-wide flood. That’s as close as any of you ever manage to get to defending your claim. But the problem is this – if the flood was real, as Genesis and Gilgamesh both purport it to be, then it should come as NO surprise that more than one literary source speaks of it. Take note that the particular events as described by Genesis and Gilgamesh are widely divergent, with respect to names and particulars, such that no one is able to sustain a serious charge of plagiarism. And THAT, is as good as it gets for folks like you who try to peddle this nonsense claim about the Bible relying on former documents for ANY of its contents.

            “Personally speaking I find many of the teachings in the Talmud repulsive and regressive to humanity and I am not an adherent.”

            Anytime you find a body of work so tainted, you should reject it for the filth that it is. The problem is, some folks level that same charge against Scripture because some of what God has to teach is hard on our ears. So prudence is required, as it always is.

            “Christians should be taught what is in the Talmud…”

            Christians should search the Talmuds for themselves and rely less on being taught by men.

            “Jesus was a humanist in that He instructed us to love one another.”

            Jesus was NO humanist. A humanist is someone with a man-centered view of the world and everything in it. Jesus had a GOD-centered view of the Heavens, the Earth and everything in them. The difference is huge and cannot possibly be overstated.

            “Jesus never called Himself God.”

            Jesus said, If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins. He said, Before Abraham was, I AM. The Jews took up stones to kill Him when He said that. Why do you suppose they did so? Because Jesus was calling Himself God – at the very least, He was making Himself equal with God. Is there a difference?

            “Jesus instructs you to pray to the “Father”, “OUR FATHER” as a matter of fact.”

            Jesus came to teach men how to interact with other men and how to interact with God. THAT is why Jesus prayed to God – , not just for the sake of communion with the Most High but for the sake of men.

            “This is quite simple and yet completely Biblical.”

            Your misunderstanding of biblical tenets is enormous, which is to be expected from anyone who has become as enmired in confusion as you have become.

            “Jesus according to the Bible is not viewed upon as “God” until the Book of John.”

            Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount: You have heard in the Law and in the Prophets… But I SAY to you…

            That is, He made Himself higher than even the Law and the Prophets. Who is higher than the Law and the Prophets? God only. Matthew, Mark and Luke all held an equally high Christology as John did. This is simple enough to prove. John just made his unmistakable.

            “The Book of John was anonymously written somewhere between 90-110AD 60 years or more after Jesus’s death.”

            Believing theologians allow for an earlier date than that. Your information is as dated as it is tainted by non-belief.

            “No expert can verify who wrote John. Does that matter to you?”

            Should it? We have the Gospels as they were written. They are all God-breathed. They all teach truth and they all give light and life. Who cares what men can or cannot say about them? Let the seeker become satisfied in his own mind, apart from the muddy waters of tradition and ‘expertise’.

            “You see it’s all theological not factual.”

            True theology is the only actual fact.

            “The council of Nicea 325AD and the council of Constantinople 381AD was largely responsible for the codification of the trinity and the official and political agreement that Jesus will be seen as a deity and at one with God and the Holy Spirit. Look it up!”

            The Scriptures do not teach Trinitarian doctrine. But there was (as you say) a vote taken re Messiah’s divinity at Nicaea (the first council). So what? The Scriptures are not easy for men to understand – most especially non-believers. A man often needs to spend many years with the Scriptures before he may wrest real and abiding truth from the pages. It is no wonder there was dissention at Nicaea – there is dissention still to this day… even among believers.

            “You asked for other pagan deities that Jesus could have been copied from. Here they are…”

            This list is useless when an examination reveals that any similarity between Jesus and these pagan divinities came to be AFTER the Gospels were written. ALL pagan myths were changed to reflect the Gospels – NOT the other way around, as any actual examination of the evidence will swiftly confirm. And remember, ten thousand dollars is payable to ANYONE who can prove otherwise.

            “Do the work yourself and see all the similarities…”

            YOU go prove to YOURSELF if you can find anything OLDER than the Gospels that agrees with this nonsense you peddle. Do some REAL study. Call museums. Interview curators, as others have done. LOOK for documentation older than the Gospels that agrees with you. Your hands will be empty even then as they are now.

            “Let face facts you wouldn’t want to pay me your $10,000. Now would you?”

            The money is yours is you think you can find what you pretend to be able to find. So? Go find it and bring it here. Links to verifiable material will suffice. But know this – the money has been on offer now for almost a decade. MANY have tried to collect. All have failed. See for yourself. Stop pretending you are the only one who has devoted any time to this endeavor. PROVE IT TO YOURSELF – even if you’re not interested in money, which of course you are. You have only your ignorance to lose and a goodly wad of cash to gain if you’re right.

            “Why are there two genealogies for Joseph? Why do they differ?”

            Because one Gospel was written to the legalists and another was written to non-legalists. Because each Gospel gives a different perspective. See Ezekiel’s vision of the Lion, the Ox, the Man and the Eagle. Four images. Four meanings. Four Gospels. One genealogy was through Mary’s line. One was through Joseph – Jesus being, as it was supposed, the son of Joseph.

            “What would it matter if Mary was immaculately conceived and was impregnated by the Holy Spirit?”

            It would mean that Jesus was born without Adam’s sin-nature imputed to Him. Thus, the virgin birth is utterly indispensable to the Biblical Narrative. (And was later stolen by the pagan myths.)

            “Was it because they had to show lineage to David and Adam? Did they need to make the pieces fit?”

            Mary was a descendant of David. David was a descendant of Adam, as we all are.

            “Unfortunately you probably also believe that Paul is an Apostle of Jesus. If that’s the case you are beyond seeing.”

            Defending the Apostle Paul from his accusers is perhaps what I excel at most. That topic, and the divinity of Jesus, more than any other are indeed my wheelhouse. ANY TIME you think you can show Paul to be a false apostle, you just say on. But before you do, please understand that ALL of the arguments have been dealt with here, at this website, MANY MANY times in the past. There is nothing you have against Paul which contradicts the Word of God. You will no doubt need this demonstrated to you at some point and I will be most happy to oblige. But it would be nice if you disposed of your attitude of certainty beforehand. There is a long line of folks like you who have had their attitudes squashed beneath the weight or truth in these public forums. They never leave happy when that happens.

            “As for me I am no slave to a book written by flawed men.”

            Neither are we. We are believers in the Word of God – written by men who were moved to write as they did by the Spirit of God. Without flaw. Without contradiction. And without hint of turning or of untruth. THAT is the written Word of God which you have come here to accuse. THAT is what we mean to defend.

            Your move.

          • I must say you are something else. No matter what factual information I post you simply ignore and say Hallelujah. I will take your silly little challenge about Paul because that will prove once and for all that you are unwilling to see the facts for what they are. You apparently want to see them as you see fit. You have asked me to prove things over and over again now it is your turn to prove something.
            Question #1
            Prove Paul saw Jesus. I want proof of where, when and the names of those who witnessed the event. Names, time and place please.
            Question #2
            Prove Paul is an Apostle appointed by Jesus. When did Jesus say Paul you are now an Apostle.
            Question #3
            Please reconcile the Book of James with Paul’s writings and doctrine?
            Question #4
            Prove who wrote the Book of Hebrews
            Question #5
            Prove who wrote 2 Peter
            Question #6
            Explain the differences that exist between the gospels regarding the:
            Birth, Death and resurrection of Jesus
            Question #7
            Why was perhaps the most famous of Jesus’s parables added in the 4th century by scribes? John 8:1-11
            Question #8
            Why was this added to the Bible at a later date?
            Mark 16:9-20 &
            Explain in detail Mark 16:18 is this the word of God?
            Question #9
            Who was Gamaliel in reference to Paul and what were his credentials?
            Question #10
            Reconcile all the differences in Paul’s Road to Damascus experience
            Acts 9
            Acts 22
            Acts 26
            Question #10
            Prove authorship and dates for all books in the New Testament.

            When you are done with those I have many more.
            Oh by the way I’m glad to see you bring the Greek into this perhaps you have already seen the Hellenistic influence on Christianity particularly Plato. As always All the Best and God Bless.

          • “No matter what factual information I post you simply ignore and say Hallelujah.”

            You haven’t posted ANY factual information yet. But I’ll let you know if you do. WE HAVE the Old and the New Testaments. YOU SAY there is earlier material upon which the testaments are based – in whole or in part. I SAY TO YOU prove it. Then you flap your gums about having posted facts? You have done nothing of the kind. Do it if you are able. Show me something older than Scripture upon which Scripture is based. Show me upon what your beliefs are settled. Don’t just hand me a list of garbage. GET SPECIFIC. Too much trouble? Then go find something else to do.

            “I will take your silly little challenge about Paul because that will prove once and for all that you are unwilling to see the facts for what they are.”

            Right. So you went to some anti Paul website and let some goon do your thinking for you. To work then:

            “Prove Paul saw Jesus.”

            Child. Here’s how this works. Paul is an apostle. If you wish to discredit him, then YOU are the bearer of the burden of proof. That’s how it works in the law of man and how it works in the Law of God. YOU don’t get to tell me to prove anything to you. You make the claim… you owe the proof. See how simple that is? Yet you lying accusers would always saddle the defenders of the Word with the burden.

            “Prove Paul is an Apostle appointed by Jesus.”

            Ignorant child. Paul is an apostle. He claims it. Peter and Luke confirm it. YOU say otherwise? Then YOU prove otherwise.

            “When did Jesus say Paul you are now an Apostle.”

            The definition of the Greek word απόστολος (apostolos) is ONE WHO IS SENT. Jesus SENT Paul to preach the Gospel. Thus, Paul was sent by Jesus. Thus, Paul is an apostle of Jesus. Words have meanings, friend.

            “Please reconcile the Book of James with Paul’s writings and doctrine?”

            Paul says we are justified by FAITH in Christ. James says we can show our faith by our works, and that without works faith is a dead thing. No contradiction.

            “Prove who wrote the Book of Hebrews…”

            Just what sort of child are you? Get serious and stop wasting my time. You are making yourself a clown. WHY is it incumbent upon me to prove the author of a Book when NO AUTHOR IS NAMED in Scripture? Why don’t you prove to me who wrote the Iliad? That would be equally as pointless and I would never bother anyone with such a juvenile waste of time as a request. Is this really the best you can do?

            “Prove who wrote 2 Peter….”

            I think we’re about finished here. You have come to play games and act a clown. I have little time for clowns.

            “Explain the differences that exist between the gospels regarding the … Birth, Death and resurrection of Jesus…”

            Why don’t you tell me what differences you mean? And BE SPECIFIC.

            “Why was perhaps the most famous of Jesus’s parables added in the 4th century by scribes? John 8:1-11…”

            The Pericope Adulterae. Was it added late? Perhaps it was. But there are VERY EARLY Manuscripts which do include it. Therefore it is by NO MEANS conclusive that it was in fact added to the Word. I am familiar with the arguments that it was, but what have you proven if you could ever prove that it was? Remove it from the Word and you have removed nothing from Jesus. Our understanding of Him remains the same even without it. It is by no means indispensable and is by no means something about which I spend much time arguing. The fact, however, remains – it cannot be conclusively proven that the Pericope Adulterae was added late.

            “Explain in detail Mark 16:18 is this the word of God?”

            There is much more abundant evidence that the final verses of Mark 16 WERE in fact added late. Remove them if you like. I neither handle serpents nor do I rely upon the passage in question for much at all. Again, remove it and you have removed nothing irreplaceable from the Word of God. I tend to agree that this passage was added late.

            “Who was Gamaliel in reference to Paul and what were his credentials?”

            Gamaliel was a renowned teacher of the Pharisees. His credentials were that he was a renowned teacher of the Pharisees.

            “Reconcile all the differences in Paul’s Road to Damascus experience…”

            First you get serious. You look at all the iterations of that event in Acts and in Paul’s epistles. Look at them in Greek. Use the various websites at your disposal to do so if you do not read or speak Greek. The apparent contradictions are ALL resolved in this way – i.e., the contradictions exist in translation ONLY. If you are serious about this matter, and you convince me that you are, then I will be happy to walk you through the verses in Greek one word at a time. There are no contradictions in the Greek Manuscripts nor in the Papyri.

            “Prove authorship and dates for all books in the New Testament.”

            I will thank you to stop harassing me with this noise. That work has ALREADY been undertaken by believing theologians. YOU GO READ what they have to say. LIBRARIES have been written on this topic. Get serious or go waste someone else’s time. I’ve given your frivolous harping just about enough of mine.

            “When you are done with those I have many more.”

            From now on I will entertain SERIOUS QUESTIONS ONLY from you. Stop it with this adolescent twaddle about proofs of dates and authorship. These matters are open for ALL to examine and I will NEVER do your homework for you. Not ever.

            “Oh by the way I’m glad to see you bring the Greek into this perhaps you have already seen the Hellenistic influence on Christianity particularly Plato.”

            You mean because John uses the term λογός and Plato did too? You think because of that John was tainted by philosophy or was himself a philosopher? That’s about as likely as your earlier claim that Jesus was a humanist. Which is to say, not at all.

            Get serious. I mean it. I will give you all the time this requires, but ONLY if I think you are being sincere.

          • Sad to see you go we were just getting started and it would cost you some money to continue for I have way more to go. I am not a clown or a child but I must say it is immature of you to resort to name calling again. I did all my own work with an associate. We investigated the best we could and can’t help what we found. We didn’t write the Bible. Funny to say that because after all these years we still don’t know who really wrote the Bible. We were trying to prove all the Bible true and at this point it would be a lie to say so. In our examination of Paul we used the 7 books that Bible scholars are confident he wrote. The case against Paul would have only been stronger had we used them all. My questions are valid you must already know that. 2 Peter and Hebrews have been deemed worldwide by Bible scholars to be forgeries and that is something you can’t afford to admit. Even early church fathers had arguments over their authenticity. You refused to answer other questions claiming they were lets say childish. But you know where I was heading and your house of cards was ready to come crashing down. Galatians 1 is contradictory to the Road to Damascus accounts in Acts. Paul by his own hand states that he went directly to Arabia and spoke to NO man. You sir started to play chess and resorted to pigeon chess. You stood on the board with your chest puffed out then threw all the pieces around declared yourself the winner and flew away squawking insults. So goodbye and as always God Bless
            By the way I didn’t post on this site by any other name and I didn’t cut and run with my tail between my legs as your friends have stated. I believe in God and stand for Jesus’s message. If Jesus was the Son of God and wanted everything written down we would have it in Aramaic not Greek. Furthermore Jesus would have recruited Apostles that could read and write not the illiterate men the Bible states they were. Could it be His message was so simple that it didn’t need to be written down? There is a good reason for the 30,000 or more different offshoots that Christianity boasts today. If the Bible was so clear and without error or contradiction I believe that the number would be much lower.
            Keep your money!

          • “…it would cost you some money to continue for I have way more to go.”

            Any time. Any place. You can always find me at this website and here is an email address you can reach me at: deadwoodgem@gmail.com Any time.

            But what you have is lies and hot air. Otherwise you would have produced something by now.

            “…it is immature of you to resort to name calling again.”

            Act a clown and I feel at liberty to call you on it.

            “I did all my own work with an associate. We investigated the best we could and can’t help what we found.”

            What you found was error. Right here, friend. I will debate you on the issues. I will cite early Manuscripts and Papyri when appropriate. The dates of these documents are largely agreed upon by believing and non-believing theologians, historians and forensic document experts. We will never have to assume or speculate and we will never have to traffic in opinion – which is what you’ve done so far, and nothing else besides.

            “…we still don’t know who really wrote the Bible.”

            Perhaps you don’t, but I have found no reason not to take the many Books of Scripture at their word. Have you ever even considered doing that? Moreover, when we carefully study the early history of the early church, it becomes rather simple to trace the individual Books of the New Testament back to their original sources. We have an abundance of documentation at our disposal written by men of the late first century, early second and third centuries – the so-called early church fathers. Again, none of this need be left to our speculation. I am wholly unimpressed with the nature and the quality of your study on this matter. What you have shown me so far is all too common and very average. You say the same things, make the same arguments and attempt to place the same demands as other Bible accusers almost as if you’ve all been to the same two or three websites and have done no actual investigation apart from a most cursory internet investigation. I say this not to be rude but to make a point: None of your ideas are unique. But all of them are easily rebutted and easily defeated.

            “We were trying to prove all the Bible true and at this point it would be a lie to say so.”

            Would be a lie to say what?

            “The case against Paul would have only been stronger had we used them all.”

            Nonsense. You have no valid accusation against Paul – no case against him at all. I’ll prove this to you as well, if you’re interested in putting in the time. You have been misled by Paul accusers, of whom there are plenty.

            “My questions are valid you must already know that.”

            Any valid question you have to ask, I will be happy to answer.

            “2 Peter and Hebrews have been deemed worldwide by Bible scholars to be forgeries…”

            That is utter balderdash. You see friend, there are believing theologians (Bible experts) and there are non-believing theologians. More than that, there is no shortage of ENEMIES of the Bible. Seems to me you’re getting only information from the non-believers and from the enemies of the Word. There is NOTHING EVEN CLOSE to a worldwide consensus that Hebrews and 2 Peter are forgeries. That is not to say you can’t find men who argue that they are forgeries, but you can also find men who argue that the Earth is flat, so what have we said? There are almost NO believing theologians who think 2 Peter and Hebrews are forgeries.

            “…that is something you can’t afford to admit.”

            I follow the truth wherever it leads. That is all. There is NO WAY that the Letter to the Hebrews is a forgery. I would stake my very life on that fact. No way at all. It is not possible to counterfeit θεόπνευστος Scripture.

            “Even early church fathers had arguments over their authenticity.”

            True. But eventually consensus was reached and the works were both deemed canonical. Obviously.

            “You refused to answer other questions claiming they were lets say childish.”

            Yes. I don’t play the ‘prove it to me’ game. That crap is annoying in the extreme and I have no time for it at all. It is childish. You would do well to consider that in the future.

            “But you know where I was heading and your house of cards was ready to come crashing down.”

            No. I deal in facts only. You come with facts or evidence which we can discuss on their own merits. That’s how meaningful examinations and conversations are conducted. You are no threat to me at all and as I said I have no problem dispatching arguments like yours. That’s what I do, friend. You have yet to put me to the test. Where are these earlier documents you keep promising? Cite a few of them. Cite one of them. If you are able. I keep asking and you keep ignoring.

            “Paul by his own hand states that he went directly to Arabia and spoke to NO man.”

            Here’s how this works. Observe:

            Galatians 1:17

            …nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

            Now then, you feel there are verses which contradict that? Please produce them and make your case. Stop with the generalizations and get specific. Then we can have a meaningful conversation about the topic.

            “By the way I didn’t post on this site by any other name and I didn’t cut and run with my tail between my legs as your friends have stated.”

            I didn’t think you had. You see I have only compared you to the many in the past and said you are all alike. I never said you are all the same person.

            “I believe in God and stand for Jesus’s message.”

            You do not stand for Jesus’s message. His message was REPENT and be baptized. His message was to believe in Him – to have FAITH in Him and in Him alone. His message was that NO ONE comes to The Father except through Him. Don’t you dare accuse the Word of God and then claim to stand for the message of the Word of God. You are a contradictory and inconsistent mess, friend. Well and truly.

            “If Jesus was the Son of God and wanted everything written down we would have it in Aramaic…”

            Hogwash. God said in the Old Testament He would plead with this people IN ANOTHER TONGUE. But if you knew the Bible, you would know that and you would know that your arguments are nonsense.

            “Jesus would have recruited Apostles that could read and write not the illiterate men the Bible states they were.”

            Show me where the Bible states the apostles were illiterate. Maybe you did write your own bible. You seem to have many crazy ideas which have nothing to do with the REAL Bible.

            “Keep your money!”

            I intend to. There isn’t any way anyone can ever rightly claim that prize. Is the point.

            Can you hear me now?

            That was a lot of typing you just did without saying ANYTHING at all. If you were so confident in your knowledge and in the verity of your claims, you would have at least TRIED to prove me wrong by now. As I say – I make myself easy to find if you ever decide to get serious.

          • I don’t think the self styled “King Ivy” heard a word you said Cintus.

          • Sure he did. But he’s another fella who writes books and has a website, which means he’s even more married to his ideas than most on account of having some real skin in the game.

            Check out his website.

            I watched a few of his videos and the inconsistencies and fallacies mounted up pretty swiftly.

            But after checking out his material, he seems more sincere than I gave him credit for at the start. Not that sincerity equals truth, because it most certainly does not. But sincerity is important — and when I find a fella to be without it, I generally show him my back right quick.

            I actually hope Rex sticks around so we can really dig into a few of these questions. Especially questions related to the Apostle Paul. I haven’t had a good Paul debate for quite a while now.

          • This is my last response to you only because you admit no proof will ever suffice. Which means your mind is completely closed.

            For you answered:

            “Keep your money!”

            “I intend to. There isn’t any way anyone can ever rightly claim that prize. Is the point.”

            “Can you hear me now?”

            Speaks volumes doesn’t it? You wager in bad faith!

            You argue every point assuming that the Bible is without error and the word of God. The Bible is not without error! To argue differently is totally disingenuous. You must already know it is rife with contradictions and errors. That is easily proven and many have done so! Thousands and thousands of errors all there in plain sight but you wont see it or acknowledge it. You will find some lame excuse to dismiss all that as well. Frankly law states that it is up to you to prove what you claim is all true for you are the one making the claim that your evidence is without error. Proposing that something is what it isn’t is fraud.
            Evidently you are used to circular arguments using the Bible to prove the Bible and using Paul to prove Paul. This tactic is disingenuous at best as well. You haven’t proved the Bible and you never will because even that is not possible even with God because it already exists as is a man made group of writings. It is painfully obvious that you love scrolls and papyri, but of course only those that fit your view and you ignore all other ancient artifacts and writings that predate the Bible and it’s contents. The items I referenced earlier regarding the flood include more than a “flood that covered the earth” the creation account is there as well but you casually ignore that. Moving on, you said Paul is an Apostle because Paul said so! Really? Jesus completely ignores the Apostles and visits Paul to make him an Apostle? Perhaps you want to believe Paul I choose not to. Paul contradicts himself and Jesus all over the place but there is no sense itemizing them here you will just dismiss it all. No matter what legitimate point is made you will simply claim context, translation or any other obfuscating tactic you can think of. All this and to think you call me names! I have no animosity towards you we simply disagree and I will proudly stand before God and accept whatever God wills. I live this life in as righteous manner as I can. Of course being human I fall way short of perfection. You state that Jesus wasn’t a humanist I suggest you reread what I posted I used the words “”in that” He instructed us to love one another”. Additionally I see no wrong in loving each other and doing all we can to preserve what we have for ourselves and those to follow. Sitting back and loving a book watching the world and everything around you going to hell longing for Armageddon, simultaneously showing disregard for others, is not my vision of righteous behavior. Whether you want to accept it or not we need to live this God given life and should do so the best we can and that glorifies God’s creation and follows God’s command. Whether there is another life or life ever lasting after this one is over is of no consequence to how I live and act. All of that is in God’s hands and His will shall be done. Many people only believe because they want that everlasting life in heaven! What a selfish motive for believing in God, the word hypocrite comes to mind. Although we will only agree to disagree I wish you well and all the best! Goodbye

          • Rex Ivy

            You try to lure people with your Judaizing fantasy world of an undefinableloving and MASS BABY BOMBING Jeebus and his ‘REAL’ apostles as real facts.

            None of them exists as real facts but through the say so of the oldest Apostle (Paul) whom you hate with all your venom spitting vitriol dressed up with GayTheist fag hag self flattery

            Or did you think anyone was buying that Pixel?

          • “…you admit no proof will ever suffice.”

            When you act like a clown, I call you a clown. And when you lie, I call you a liar. This sort of thing I have precious little tolerance for. AT NO TIME have I said or indicated ANYTHING of the kind. And if you resort to outright fabrication like this, then there really is no point whatsoever in conversation with you. Dishonesty of this sort is a damning indication of just what animates a person like you.

            “Which means your mind is completely closed.”

            My mind is malleable only in the face of FACTS, of EVIDENCE, and of TRUTH. All else is either rejected or ignored. Why should it be any different?

            Now the point I made above re my bounty is clear enough to all right-thinking individuals: I have satisfied myself that no such evidence exists. I have looked high and low. I have made my offer for many years. BUT IF anyone were ever to produce evidence of the sort you keep PRETENDING to have access to, then I would most certainly be a man of my word. I would pay the promised bounty.

            “You wager in bad faith!”

            And when you lie, do you lie in good faith? My money is secure because you CANNOT produce something which does not exist. And I have grown tired of repeating myself on the matter. If all you can do is talk, pretend and complain, then what good are you to anyone or indeed to yourself? Why should anything you say to anyone ever be considered worth anything, when all you have done here is lie and pretend? Who benefits from such things?

            “You argue every point assuming that the Bible is without error and the word of God.”

            I argue from the position of the conclusion I reached after first examining the evidence over the space of several years. Am I not permitted to argue from the position I believe to be the superior position?

            “The Bible is not without error!”

            The Scriptures, AS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN, are completely and utterly without error. I do not deny that corruptions have been inserted into the Manuscript traditions over the millennia. But I do maintain that via diligent study and careful attention to the facts and evidence, we may be rewarded with the ability to either correct or to compensate for all of the corruptions – and in fact there aren’t that many to contend with. I would be happy to list a few of them for you, but you seem intent on beating a hasty retreat. Not that I blame you, considering the fact that you are unable to produce any substance to support your myriad contentions and assertions.

            “You must already know it is rife with contradictions and errors.”

            Nearly ALL of the apparent contradictions are easily resolved by examining the texts in question in the original languages. It seems to me you never spent any time exploring the world of language. Too bad. It could have perhaps saved you from the terrible error in which you presently find yourself.

            “That is easily proven and many have done so!”

            Do so here. Give me five supposed errors or contradictions and I will show you right now, right here, that they are nothing of the sort. But no. I offer and you decline. Why? Because it is YOU who has neither the mind nor the stomach for this sort of thing. I actually love the work. I appreciate it and I enjoy it immensely. It can be very rewarding showing, via facts and evidence, the solutions to the apparent errors and contradictions in Scripture. But what would you know. You’d rather teach and bring your own message. Right?

            “Thousands and thousands of errors all there in plain sight but you wont see it or acknowledge it.”

            Maybe Gus Fung was right. Maybe I am talking to a wall. How about this: I dare you to cough up a few of these so-called errors. I dare you. Here I am, ready willing and able. And there you are, pretending I have neither the willingness nor the capacity for the task. One of us is an out-and-out deceiver and a terribly dishonest person.

            “You will find some lame excuse to dismiss all that as well.”

            But I guess we’ll never know, since I keep inviting you to try me and you keep dancing around your circle of disingenuousness.

            “Frankly law states that it is up to you to prove what you claim is all true for you are the one making the claim that your evidence is without error.”

            Friend, YOU are the one who began the claims – not I. YOU are the one who brought charges against the Word of God – not I. The burden of proof ALWAYS abides with the accuser. ALWAYS.

            “Proposing that something is what it isn’t is fraud.”

            Fraudulence is what you are perpetrating here. And you’re doing it in public, for all to see, I would remind you.

            “Evidently you are used to circular arguments using the Bible to prove the Bible and using Paul to prove Paul.”

            Nonsense. You haven’t allowed me a chance to defend. But if you ever do I will of course use the evidence we have at our disposal, and that most assuredly includes the Bible.

            “You haven’t proved the Bible and you never will…”

            It isn’t my job to prove. It is my job to defend. It is your job to prove. You are the accuser. I am the defender.

            “…you ignore all other ancient artifacts and writings that predate the Bible and it’s contents.”

            I do what now? You mean these imaginary artifacts and writings from which the authors of Scripture supposedly plagiarized? There you are again, talking about things which do not exist. You are a liar. Now wouldn’t it be nice to prove me wrong, especially for the folks who end up reading this? Your name and reputation are at stake. Your work is on the line. If you had anything but smoke and lies, you would have shoved it in my face by now. And everyone knows it. Even you.

            “The items I referenced earlier regarding the flood include more than a “flood that covered the earth” the creation account is there as well but you casually ignore that.”

            Then show me the facts. Show me some indisputable evidence – of the kind that would hold up in a court of law – that the authors of Scripture borrowed, plagiarized or stole anything at all from these supposed documents. And friend, you had better make DAMN SURE your evidence is older than Scripture. For example, you know as well as I do that the Egyptian Book of the Dead does not exist today in the state it existed in 3500 years ago. Anyone who has looked into these things knows that to be true. So cite material that is provably older than the Scriptures, or go away and play with your cat.

            “Moving on, you said Paul is an Apostle because Paul said so!”

            What else did I say? I said Peter and Luke both confirmed it.

            “Jesus completely ignores the Apostles and visits Paul to make him an Apostle?”

            Jesus ignores the apostles? There you are again, reading from that bible you wrote yourself. For forty days after His resurrection, what did Jesus do? With whom did He abide and teach? It is now almost impossible for me to take you seriously. You have demonstrated repeatedly that you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. More’s the pity.

            “Perhaps you want to believe Paul I choose not to.”

            Ah. Clarity. You never wanted to believe Paul from the beginning. You never gave him the benefit of the doubt. I did, because I take a man at his word until I have SOLID REASON NOT to take him at his word – the kind of solid reason I have not to take you at your word. Paul is not a liar. But you are.

            “Paul contradicts himself and Jesus all over the place but there is no sense itemizing them here you will just dismiss it all.”

            No. I will SHOW YOU and everyone reading this, FROM THE EVIDENCE, that is, from Scripture, that Paul never contradicts either himself or Jesus. Opinions are worthless things and I try never to bother anyone with my opinion as you bother folks with yours. I will demonstrate, conclusively, that Paul is not guilty of the charges you bring against him. I will show that you are a false accuser and I will do so only with facts and evidence.

            “No matter what legitimate point is made you will simply claim context, translation or any other obfuscating tactic you can think of.”

            I will claim nothing. I will use Scripture to refute you. And if I resort to usage of the original languages, I will include links to reputable sites that explain the languages including defining the specific words. I ask no one to take my word for any of this. Ever.

            “All this and to think you call me names!”

            Yes. I call you what you are.

            “I have no animosity towards you we simply disagree…”

            I don’t take kindly to folks lying to me or about me as you have now done repeatedly. You have repeatedly falsely represented the Scriptures as saying things they do not say and you have repeatedly brought false accusations against both Paul and the Word of God. Is this not cause for animus? I believe it is.

            “…I will proudly stand before God…”

            God abhors pride. It will not go well for you In That Day.

            “I live this life in as righteous manner as I can.”

            You are a deceiver. Deception is not righteous behavior. You need to do better.

            “You state that Jesus wasn’t a humanist I suggest you reread what I posted I used the words “”in that” He instructed us to love one another”.”

            You are likewise ignorant of the definition of humanism. Christ’s command to love one another in no way makes Him a humanist. Christ was and is a THEIST. The two are mutually exclusive to virtually measureless degree.

            “Additionally I see no wrong in loving each other…”

            Let my devotion of time to this conversation bear record of my motives. I rebuke you, it is true. But I wouldn’t spend any time in conversation with you about these things if I had no interest in the command of my Savior.

            “Sitting back and loving a book watching the world and everything around you going to hell longing for Armageddon, simultaneously showing disregard for others, is not my vision of righteous behavior.”

            You make a cartoon of believers. You mock believers when you do this. And your mockery is yet more false accusation.

            “What a selfish motive for believing in God, the word hypocrite comes to mind.”

            And now you will presume to tell me my motives for believing in God? What outrageous hubris. And to add insult to outrage you claim to strive for righteousness.

            Take your show on the road. Sell your lies elsewhere. Or grow a spine, show some integrity and some fortitude and table your lies right here and watch them wilt in the fire of the Word of God.

            Do as you will.

          • None of your arguments are unique to us, Rex Ivy, including your boast about having “way more to go” turning into “This is my last response” in the space of two comments.

            You’re also not the first to post a list of so called Messiah’s and thoroughly referenced scholastic refutations, of them all, can be found at http://www.tektonics.org/

            As to the rest of your diatribe, Rex Ivy, i have nothing to add that Cintus Supremus hasn’t already covered and it appears your hands a quite full enough trying to deal with his arguments.

  • Would Jesus scold Trump on refugees? More relevant is: would Jesus scold BHO & HRC for bombing the shit out their countries and thus creating a zillion and a half refugees?

  • The answer could never be more simple; as in the Simplicity of Christ. If Christians did what Christ has been Telling everyone to do, we would not be in this diabolical situation. If we give aid to every person that asks we will be doing His Commands. If we comfort ALL of those who need it, we will be doing His Commands.

    Give it all to others….but no!!! Today’s counterfeits in the church refuse to do it! So, therefore, God Will Judge those who call themselves after Him firstly.

    Christ Told us that this is not our world. Most of today’s Christians love this world and the things in it. They covet $$$, power, war; cars, clothes, trips….what-ever is of Satan…they just love it. They will most definitely deny it but the proof is right there before our eyes. They don’t even realize it.

    Today’s church (s) do the above so easily because they’ve never been Taught from Above. They go to those who have gone into a profession, hirelings, have grabbed a title and could not care less about the other “guy”; just their paycheck and power over others; just like the busine$$ world.

    THERE ARE NO DENOMINATIONS IN HEAVEN, WHY SO ON EARTH….and why so many???

    MANY OF TODAY’S COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS ARE COMPLICIT IN SETTING UP THE RULE OF SATAN THRIUGH A MAN AND THE FALSE PROPHET. THEY HAVE DONE SO BY BEING SO DISOBEDIENT; FROM NOT DOING THE VERY BASIC AND SIMPLISTIC ACTS OF LOVE THAT SHOULD BE WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS.

    THE FALSE CHRISTIANS WILL NOT BELIEVE CHRIST, WHO IS, WAS AND IS TO COME, THE I AM THAT I AM AND WHO IS THE VERY SAME ONE THAT THEY “WORKED” SO HARD FOR. THEY WILL BE REJECTED FROM ENTERING INTO THE FIRST RESURRECTION. THEY BELIEVE PALASTINIANS GETTING BUTCHERED IS GOOD AND JUST. I AM THE WITNESS TO THAT.

    THEY ARE THE FIRST REASON THAT THIS WORLD IS SO EVIL.

    Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; THE WORLD INCLUDES COUNTERFEIT CHRISTIANS…he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the Simplicity that is in Christ.

  • Damn. This site never fails to welcome a whole new set of Sitchin-ists and Bible haters once the last set has tucked tail and ran. It’s happened too many times to count. I wouldn’t even be surprised if it’s the same people with different names, trying to save face… but that’s nothing but speculation on my part.

    It appears that throwing around ad hominem attacks is preferable to actual debate. Go figure. Nothing new here. Pick a number and get in line.

    Either that or go to Nancy Lieder’s webpage (if it still exists) and wait for your magic planets and alien gods.

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