Rapture? When? (Part 3) "The Abomination"
The Abomination That Makes Desolate
INTRODUCTION
If you don’t want to waste time on a review, the article begins below the break. Feel free to skip the introduction.
I focused on the pre-tribulation rapture timing first, primarily because it seems that that particular belief is most common within the Christian community. The next passage, apparently leaves room for a mid-tribulation rapture, but also seems to make a pre-tribulation rapture impossible to reconcile. Of course I would argue that Revelation Chapter 20 is strong evidence that neither a pre-tribulation, nor a mid-tribulation rapture is reconcileable with the whole counsel of the Word.
I’ll put links here in the introduction for anyone who wants to review the first two articles in detail.
For now, a quick review. The first article asserted that the terminology “first resurrection” (Rev 20:5), referring to the specifically defined group in Rev 20:4 is exactly what it says. If it truly is the first resurrection and we know from the context when it occurs (at Jesus’ return or very near it) then we can’t reconcile that passage with a pre-tribulation (or mid-trib for that matter) rapture.
/prophecy/2016/05/rapture-when-2480919.html
The second article took a look at a few verses in Matthew Chapter 24, put them into their context and challenged the whole idea of “left behind” as it is commonly portrayed in our day.
/prophecy/2016/05/rapture-when-part-2-left-behind-2480961.html
A quick word about hermaneutics (covered in some detail in the first article). The Bible informs us that the Word of God is “of no private interpretation.”
2 Peter 1
16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
As I wrestled with this passage I asked “Lord, in order to understand there has to be an interpretation. I can’t come to an understanding of what You meant me to understand without it. If I can’t interpret what I read then how can I understand?”
To make a long story short, His answer was found in the same passage. The Word must interpret itself. Only the Holy Spirit (verse 21) can enlighten us as to what He meant when He caused anything to be written. If I combine this understanding about interpretation with this passage:
Psalm 138
I will worship toward Your holy temple,
And praise Your name
For Your lovingkindness and Your truth;
For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.
I believe it is safe to conclude that He will not tell me something that violates anything He previously caused to be written. That is an astonishing statement if you think about it. His Name is representative of ALL He is. And it is He who chose to magnify His Word above His own name? Mind-boggling! I believe He chose to do that so we could have confidence in His unchanging nature. He is not fickle, chopping and changing from day to day, and if He was we’d have no way to have any confidence in anything He promises. Including our salvation.
Over time I adopted a stricter and stricter hermaneutic because I can know the Word is reliable, and this list of rules of interpretation I bind myself with removes MY interpretations. It prevents me from becoming somehow emotionally attatched to any particular interpretation and forces me to hold onto anything I can’t nail down unequivocally in the Word very loosely. I can only fully embrace and fully believe what I can find in the Word itself. I do get revelation from the Holy Spirit, but I always ask Him to show it to me in the written Word. And so far, He has been faithful to do exactly that. I don’t fully embrace anything until He does. After all, it is He who chose to elevate His Word above His name. And He did it for our sake. My strict hermaneutic is an attempt to honor His Word as well. So, if I fail to embrace someone else’s interpretation immediately, it is for that reason. I need to see it nailed down in the Word. That “nailing down” can take two forms. We can either see an interpretation explicitly confirmed in another place in the Word, or we can see it fit PRECISELY into the larger picture formed by the whole counsel of the Word. If each piece is precisely interpreted, the overall picture formed when we put the pieces together will not have one single element out of place. His Word will never conflict with His revealed nature, or any other part of His Word. On to the article.
THE ABOMINATION
In I Thessalonians Chapter 2 Paul deals with the topic of His return. Reading between the lines it’s logical to speculate that someone was disturbing the Church at Thessalonica by teaching that He had already returned and they missed it. His (Paul’s) response was to list two things that had to happen before Jesus returned. Lets look at it:
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
In verse 1 Paul opens the topic of the
“…the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him…”
In verse 3 Paul once more hammers the exhortation “Don’t be decieved!” I find it interesting that Jesus Himself in Matthew 24, Paul here, and there are other places where this topic is discussed in Scripture where that same exhortation is found. It appears that Jesus and Paul both understood that the potential for deception surrounding the topic of Jesus’ return would be great. I take that as a cue to be even more careful than normal to watch out for deception and not be snared by it.
In verse 4 Paul identifies the two things that MUST happen before the day Jesus returns and they are:
1. A great “falling away” (apostasia in the Greek)
and
2. A revealing (apokalypsus) of the “man of sin” (apoleia)
For the purposes of discussion, I am going to outline what I believe those two landmark events look like. I don’t feel I have enough Scriptural evidence to be dogmatic about my description of these events so take it for what it is worth.
1. In the first landmark event that greek word “apostasia” could be translated directly into English as “apostasy” and in fact some translations do just that. I feel that the word includes the idea of falling away from something, and you cannot “fall away” from something you never believed. So, my alarming conclusion is that this falling away represents a significant number of people who once believed in the Word, for whatever reason, cease to believe any longer. An alarming thought…very alarming. I recently asked about the nature of the great end time deception, and what I have been shown since may very well explain this falling away. That isn’t terribly relevant right this minute but I do hope to get to that later on. For now, it’s enough to understand that whatever the cause, people who formerly believed, choose to abandon their belief. And, since Paul pointed to that as a verifiable landmark, something that MUST occur before Jesus returns, then it must be an identifiable, recongnizable “event”. Whatever the exact details turn out to be, it has to be something we will be able to recognize and identify as fullfillment of this verse.
2. The second landmark event Paul says must occur before Jesus returns is the “unveiling” (apokalypto) of the antichrist. I’m pretty sure that the rest of the passage is Paul telling us exactly what that “unveiling” looks like. We will know this event is fulfilled when the antichrist, against all the Bible teaches us, somehow identifies himself as the God above all gods, claims that he is the only thing worthy of worship, and seats himself in God’s place in His temple.
IF this takes place (as many including me assume) mid-way through a seven year period begun at a time when the antichrist “confirms a covenant with the many” (Daniel 9:26-27) which appears to inagurate Daniel’s seventieth week, then we can correlate the passage in Daniel with Paul’s second landmark that must occur before Jesus returns. In the middle of that “week” of years, it appears this antichrist character clearly reveals himself by falsely proclaiming himself to be God and disallowing worship of any other God. The midpoint of Daniel’s seventieth week would seem to be the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
Now, IF that is the case, (and I am very purposefully attempting to be much less dogmatic about this piece of evidence than the previous two) then we have to assume that Jesus’ return cannot occur before the antichrist is clearly revealed as the usuper, the pretender who makes himself out to be God but is not.
IF that is true, then Jesus cannot come to fulfill the topic Paul opened with
“…the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him…”
until half way through Daniel’s 70th week.
IF that is true, then the pre-tribulation rapture cannot be reconciled with this passage either.
That got a bit on the complex side, so I pray I managed to make it clear.
I hope you detected that I’m VERY open to other interpretations of this. If anyone can provide me with an interpretation that is more firmly rooted in the Word than this one I just presented…please share it. This is one where I want to tread lightly because I am not convinced this is as well grounded as the first two assertions.
Enough for now 
The next article will be an interlude where I hope to talk about the nature of Biblical prophecy in general and begin to tell my own story of how I arrived where I am with reference to what I believe about the timing of Jesus return and the first resurrection.
May He confirm His Word and correct us in any place we have misundertood Him.
Sincerely,
Jostler
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Whistler Blowers, Insiders
…It is appointed to each man to die …one time.
…I think this is the big reason for the ‘rapture’ theory’s popularity in the churches….pathological fear of DEATH. The ‘idea’ of the rapture would be a sort of an ‘emotional’ comfort, the only way out of facing certain death.
maxwell
“one time”?? one of these days you will get your quotes correct I hope.
Its appointed for men to die and then the judgement, is the point of the scripture.
Of course there is then the 2nd Death, a big problem for “your” incorrect statement.
I have attempted twice to comment on your last post and been thwarted each time. Thought I would see if I am able to post without interference.
sometimes logging out of BIN and back in has fixed that for me in the past.
I’ve also noticed that posts won’t appear right away. If you click the refresh button on your browser you will usually seem them appear after that.
Also, sometimes you click the “SUBMIT” button and instead of submitting the comment you just see the little circle thingy turn round and round and round and round etc. I don’t know what that’s all about.
clucker…my comp got so bad i had to wipe it and start all over…went from jonesy to maxwell..new email address too. working much better, but i lost a bunch of stufff.
That sucks Max. I don’t have anything backed up so if my comp. went down I would have to relocate many a bookmark. BTW, did you get my email?
…clucker…just sent a short confirmation….
the whole “rapture” story, is zapped by the end o Luke 17…
Luk 17:34 “I say to you, in that night there shall be two in one bed, the one shall be taken and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 “Two shall be grinding together, the one shall be taken and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:36 “Two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken and the other shall be left.”
Luk 17:37 And they answering, said to Him, “Where, Master?” And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the eagles shall be gathered together.”
if theres like carrion birds.. (BURD! ) circling, then they circlin something dead,
^^ short and to the point
The word “taken” has a bad connotation, “Taken against your will” — there is even a movie by that name and it ended badly for the takers as it will in that day.
More heaps of nuthin.
The greatest deception that Satan has pulled off, to date, preys upon the desire to avoid persecution, war, sickness, and beheadings, all of which are spoken of as parts of the tribulation.
The teaching gained popularity during the 19th century, although it was invented as early as the 1st century AD, as a way to compete with the erroneous doctrine of eternal punishment.
The doctrine is designed to appeal to the exceptionalism apparent in many a modern church and to deceive, if that were possible, even the most sincere students.
I put it to the reader that the most likely scenario, when a devout pre-tribber finds themselves mired in the tribulation, is apostasy. And, again, what is it that Satan wants?
If pre-trib rapture belief = apostasy we’re all in trouble. I have known the Lord since I was 8 years old, and in spite of periods of MANY years of ignoring Him, He never left me.
In spite of many years immersed in sin, even while knowing Him, He remained faithful.
In spite of the fact that I still choose sin over obedience at times, He continues to convict, correct, teach and adjust.
In spite of years of holding as true MANY details of His will and ways that later turned out to be wrong, He covered me while I grew and learned.
I sincerely doubt that anyone who has believed on His name has understood His story with perfect accuracy.
Saying that being mistaken in a belief about any of these peripheral doctrines means that someone has rejected Him is so dead wrong it implies to me that the one saying it is much closer to apostasy than any pre-tribber could ever be.
We should pursue sound doctrine…always. It’s incredibly important to our growth and development in Him.
But anyone who has the basic understanding of receiving the free gift He died to offer, has bowed their heart to Him as Saviour, Lord and King is His, and nobody will get them out of His hand.
Once that in-dwelling Spirit has entered a heart at the new birth, THEN the power to understand sound doctrine has entered with Him and we begin a long journey of transformation into His image.
He’s not done with me yet, even after many years. And I think my experience of Him is typical.
If He had judged me apostate every time I got one doctrine or another wrong I’d be apostate now because I’m willing to bet I STILL believe things that will later prove to be untrue.
He’s not fickle like we are, and if I remain faithful to spend time in His presence and continue to read and study His Word I bet He’ll keep rooting out those lies I’ve believed and replace them with Himself.
“If pre-trib rapture belief = apostasy we’re all in trouble.”
A good deal of self-confessed Christians certainly would be.
But of course, that isn’t what Mayhem said.
Fervent and zealous belief in pre-trib rapture easily leads to apostasy if ever the adherents to that doctrine are confronted with the reality that no such get-out-of-tribulation card exists. There’s a major difference between what Mayhem said and what you attribute him with saying.
Another major concern related to this topic is that pre-trib rapture advocates almost universally conflate the outpouring of God’s wrath with the time of Great Tribulation. But those periods should not be conflated as they do not run concurrently but consecutively. His wrath comes after the time of Great Tribulation. The Scriptural terms ‘tribulation’ and ‘wrath’ do not denote the same thing, as the Book of Revelation makes perfectly clear.
Straw-men abound!
That the mistaken belief in a pre-trip rapture equates to apostasy are words that you put in my mouth, Jostler, and not words that actually came from me. The difference being you’re talking present tense and i’m talking of the future where the rapture happens at Jesus return which, of course, is post tribulation. You said “equates to” whereas i said “results in”.
Nor did i say anything about Jesus turning His back on anyone or that i understood the narrative with perfect accuracy so save the passive aggressive admonishing for someone who cares for it.
The pre-tribbers have their faith in their church, not the Father and Son, and what they think is the indwelling Holy Spirit is more likely elitist over confidence or superiority complex in layman’s terms. Frankly i’ve learned not to trust anyone who claims that God gave them some special insight and only accept what God has said to us all.
The point being that rather than admit being wrong the pre-tribbers, finding themselves stuck in the same tribulation as the rest of us, are more likely to accept the one who proclaims himself to be God, replete with minor miracles and wondrous signs, rather than trusting in the one who promised to keep the faithful from the testing that is to come upon the whole world.
There is to be a great rebellion against God but the Atheists, Agnostics and Polytheists have already rebelled so who does that leave? Those that say they are Jews but are not.
Don’t worry about the details just get the basics down? Coincidentally that’s exactly what religions say. And spare me the generalizations because there’s just tons of sheeple that go to church every week who have never bowed to God’s authority.
You’re worried about keeping your dignity intact, fleshling, lets see how you do when it’s your head that’s on the chopping block.
I’m expecting Jostler to be somewhat defensive, Beef, and it’s not just about the language barrier this time.
I’m picking he’s yet to get over being mocked for referencing passages related to the traditions-of-men in a discussion about the enduring applicability of The Law.
Expected it may be but understood it is not. I’ve read all 3 parts and all the comments, in this series, probably half a dozen times and as far as i can tell Jostler no longer believes in a pre-trip rapture and i never did.
He’s doing fine for a newbie.
It’s the skin-thickness test I’m most curious about.
If this site doesn’t make you crusty — what will?
…I think the big danger of belief in the fly away doctrine is that it could be used by the A.C. as a tool of deception…desperation, makes people do stupid things.
mayhem
what most are missing is the fact that those that have been beheaded or martyred for the Word are the strongest in faith.
I have come to see martyrdom as God’s “Spiritual Medal of Honor”, and who is the greatest besides John the Baptist — Jesus Christ.
the martyred will be exalted on High IN THAT DAY.
I know I’m not as well read in the Bible as many of you are. I don’t know the Books, chapters and verses like many of you. I have begun reading the Bible from cover to cover and I have recently completed the Old Testament and started the New Testament. I am in the Book of Mark at the moment.
The following is not in scripture but something I have been considering for a while now. This is personal feelings and incite so please be kind and it relates to the topic at hand.
1. A great “falling away”
People believe that president Obama will reveal the truth about aliens and alien contact before he leaves office or that Trump will when he takes office. If or when this happens and aliens / alien ships do appear and introduce themselves this will cause many to “fall away” as their faith will be shaken. I won’t go into detail but many people believe that everything was literally created in six days. I know the bible says this but I also believe the bible and God’s word are to instruct and educate us. Time only exist here on our material plane of earth and our universe. On the other realms of the spirit I do not believe time exist. That’s one reason it is said that if you sin you can go and spend eternity in hell. My point is what’s a day to God? One second or a million years is the same in hell.
So a great falling away could be the revelation that aliens do exist and the government has been working with them for quite some time.
2. A revealing of the “man of sin”
I believe this will be the Caliph Leader and religious ruler of the Muslim caliphate. We all know what Muslims think of Christians. ISIS has already declared all Muslims should be working for the caliphate. Don’t get me wrong I’m not bashing Muslims, but we can see what direction the world is heading. World War 3 is right around the corner and I believe Jesus Christ will be coming very soon.
…Antichrist is described in such a way that implies he is a ‘supernatural being’, (that’s why I don’t buy Obama as the A.C.), Satan is a supernatural being. The E.T./UFO, thing is part of a deception to make the world believe the devil is a beneficent spaceman, come to SAVE the world from self destruction.
…This deception is how he takes control…”peace, peace” IS the catch phrase…
…It fits with the ‘rapture’ deception also-spacemen would have the technology to physically fly ‘em outa here. Satan and the rest of the “Nephilim” will soon be introduced to the world as extra-terrestrial saviors, of our world. The modern population of the world has been ‘programmed’ to accept it since the 1950′s.
…The book of Ezekiel describes angelic “highly polished bronze”, circular, vehicles. There are many references in secular history to back this up, too…..keep watching.
Qrob, I suspect you and maxwell both are on a trajectory that will prove to be true in very significant ways. We may not fully comprehend the details yet, but the alien “Disclosure” (just google Steven Greer) is being pushed really hard in our day.
I do not believe there are extraterrestrial races in the sense of independentlly developed lifeforms other than human born on other planets or other star systems.
I do fully believe there are extra dimensional beings, and we have always historically known them as angles and demons.
There very well may be a great deception coming where the evil spiritual beings we’ve always understood to exist try to portray themselves as both mankind’s creator and saviour.
The tactics and techniques of predictive programing are becoming better and better understood by more and more who have previously been victims of its indoctrination.
Plenty of evidence, viewed through that lens of predictive programing, argues we’re headed right at exactly such a scenario.
I see great potential for both THE lie mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:11:
“And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,…”
and the apostasy to be closely related to this alien deception.
The greatest deception that Satan has pulled off (apart from making PPL believe he does not exist) is sowing Weeds and Tares and Goats and Wolves into the Field, Those Born Again can spot them I’m sure, they prey on those whom are called, and chew on Pearls, mired in the Old Covenant the “Ministry of Death”
They we’re NEVER in the CHURCHES ekklesia, to go into Apostasy in the first place , they NEVER believed in “MY SPIRIT”
“HE” WHO SPEAKETH to the CHURCHES ,”GOD the HOLY SPIRIT”
Standing on the Word (and keeping His Promises) is NOT ESCAPISM
. LUKE 21: 28 34-36
v28And when these things
BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
34 so that day come upon you unawares.
35
“For as a snare shall it COME ON ALL” 
them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy
TO ESCAPE ALL these things that shall come to pass, and 
to stand before the Son of man.
Being an advocate for the Precepts of God will NOT lead to disappointment, a God of Mercy who ALWAYS rescues His people BEFORE temptation/tribulation as He has shown us throughout Scripture.
2 Peter 2 v 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the
unjust unto the day of judgment 
to be punished:
Rev 3:10 “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee
from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
God Himself gave us Noah and Lot as a Precept, an example of ESCAPE, His Mercy for the righteous.
“Jacobs trouble” is for ISRAEL the last (7 yrs Tribb & Wrath) the 69 weeks were ALL about Israel So the LAST FULL 7 yrs are for Israel NOT the BRIDE as she is FIRST
By holding onto His Promises, His Word with perseverance and patience
this WILL gain you (a great reward) a Crown @ His appearing.
Let no-one steal your Crown that’s WHY the debate on PTR is SO IMPORTANT
The pre-tribbers have their faith in HIS PROMISES the Blessed HOPE…(not a church ?)
So Keep His Word and patience Until His APPEARING put on and keep on “the helmet of Hope”,
there’s a battle for your mind out there !!!
Why ?
For what is SEALED on Earth is SEALED in HEAVEN
Those called to the Bride Maranatha
Not born again ? see my Bio Crazy Times
So as this this is one of my favorite subjects to discuss, I will once again give you my 2 cents worth:
It is going to be a little lengthy though:
In the passage that you quoted above (2 Thes. 2) Paul is addressing the Thessalonian church that have been infiltrated by some false doctrine that had them believing that the day of Christ had already occurred as you rightly stated. Paul then continues to explain the situation by stating what events have to occur before the “day of Christ” could come. What is meant by the “day of Christ” and how can we answer the “what”,”when” and “why” questions. I think from earlier discussion we know that what is referred to is the 7-year period that includes 3.5 years at the end of great tribulation.
Eze_30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Jer_30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
So we know what Paul is talking about when he refers to the day of Christ.
Initially, I accepted the “falling away” as a general increase in apostasy or moving away from sound doctrine and declining morals over time as we approach this time, but if one reads what Paul is saying carefully, it has become more and more evident to me that the way in which Paul states this, would seem more like an event that is required to allow the Antichrist to be revealed rather than a gradual process of moving away from the Truth.
We know that the characteristics of the Laodicean church that will be on earth at the time when “the day of Christ” starts, will be that of apostasy, falling away from the Truth and moral decline. So I am not saying that this is not happening – albeit gradually – and it has also been happening over many years and even decades or centuries. The question we have to ask ourselves then is this: “When will the level of “falling away”, be sufficient to be considered enough, so that the Antichrist can be revealed?” To me, this approach have become less and less likely to match the way in which Paul stated the facts. The “apostasia”, that he is referring to here, seems more like an event than a gradual decline or describing a specific condition.
Another clue that we have to bring into the analysis here is the fact that Paul states that there is a “power” that is withholding the Antichrist from making his appearance. It is not stated who or what this is in this passage, but Paul reminded the Thessalonians of what he told them before. So they had the knowledge of Paul’s explanation earlier and could get to the answer. Fortunately for us, as you know, God’s Word can interpret itself if you search thoroughly. So we can also find an answer to this question in God’s Word!
So knowing that Paul states the “falling away” needs to happen before the Antichrist can be revealed and knowing that He specifically states that the Antichrist is being withhold by someone or something that will bring forth the appearance of the Antichrist as soon as it is removed, it is logical to then draw a preliminary conclusion/assumption that the “falling away” and the “withholding power” could be connected. However, we need more evidence to arrive at a more watertight argument.
If we look at the word “apostasia” in Greek and see if we can find another meaning for it that could be related to an event, rather than a gradual decline, what options are there? One that stands to me is given below from the Strongs concordance:
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, “LEAVE, DEPARTURE,” which is derived from 575/apó, “AWAY FROM” and 2476 /histémi, “stand”) – properly, DEPARTURE (implyingdesertion);
I realised that our connotation with the word “apostasy” has been stereotyped and we seldom think about the fact that in Greek it could also mean “departure” or “to leave”. So if we now read what Paul is writing:
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a “departure” first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;..
So this helps us understand this better if we are considering a specific event rather than a general condition preceding the Antichrist’s appearance. Then we also need to see if we can find any possible connection between the “power” that is withholding the Antichrist and the event that is described as a “departure”. We need to identify the withholding power first.
So when we approach this topic we will have to make use of an elimination process to arrive at the answer. “Who would be in a position to resist the Antichrist?” will be our first question to answer. The candidates that I can think of would be:
1. God
2. Angels
3. Christians who are the church of God
We know that God is all powerful and has created the Antichrist and will definitely have power over him and would be able to resist him.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a “departure” first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;..
Paul’s explanation above of the action that will be carried out to allow the Antichrist’s revealing seems to be performed by a higher power than the entity and does not fit an action that would describe God resisting the Antichrist, in my opinion. God would not be taken out of the way, because there is no one capable of doing that. If it was God’s intention to have Paul write this with God as the resisting entity I think God would have had Paul phrase the sentence differently. This is just my opinion.
Next we look at Angels. Many have stated that this resisting power is the archangel Michael, but we do not read in God’s Word that any of God’s angels have been given the task or authority to resist the devil here on earth or preventing him from making known the identity of the Antichrist. In fact we read in Daniel quite the opposite. The earth is Satan’s dominion and God’s angels have to fight their way through those of Satan to get things done as can be seen below.
Dan_10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Dan_10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. 21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
So from these passages it would seem that in the time of Daniel, angels, good or bad, operated on an equal footing here on earth, but that fallen angels can effectively resist God’s angles. We also see a battle described between Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels in Revelation 12 and that this has as a result, Satan’s confinement to earth. This would also not seem to perfectly fit with the situation that Paul is referring to in 2Thessalonians 2.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
We even see scriptures where humans are said to have power over angles where Jacob is described in wrestling with the angel of the Lord; where those who belong to Christ will be appointed judges over angels and finally where Hebrews describe the position of angels:
Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: 4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
1Co_6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
So we could categorise the “angel-option” as questionable at most as we do not have any passages assigning authority to angels over other angels in God’s Word. Next we will look at the final option and see if this is a more suitable candidate to fit Paul’s description – the church. The very first mention of the church is made in:
Mat_16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
What is standing out here is that the very first attribute that is assigned to the Church is authority over hell and that hell as the defending entity will not be able to withstand. Why is this? We find several passages expounding on this for us:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Luk_21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Jas_4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
So examining only these few passages, we see overwhelming evidence of authority over Satan and hell given to the Church. The Church is an entity that God established with a specific purpose in mind – having his authority over the world and over Satan and his dominion. It was a hidden secret that was not known to other ages and whose attributes did not apply to past ages and will also be absent from the 7-year period of Jacob’s Trouble.
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
1Pe_1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
So given this knowledge, we can now better understand what Paul is saying if we consider the Church’s authority on earth and that is this:
While the Church is on earth, Satan and all of his angels are subject to the authority of God through the Church. If Satan revealed his Antichrist while the Church is present on earth, he would stand no chance of achieving his desired outcome. We have seen the true Church of God being victorious over him for more than 2,000 years now. It was God’s purpose to put the Church on earth to keep Satan under control and to prevent him from achieving his desired outcome before the time was right for it. When God removes the Church, the door will be opened for Satan, who will then not only be the head of authority on earth, but will also be confined to the earth and those who are left with him will not have the authority over him that the Church had.
We can then clearly see from the considerations above that the Church, being indwelt by God’s Spirit and having God’s authority is the withholding power that will be removed in order for Satan to obtain ruling status on earth that can then allow his Antichrist to step forward without the threat of being defeated.
Something else which would further cause a contradiction is Revelation 13:7
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
If God gave authority to the Church over hell and said that hell would not be able to withstand the Church, why would He break his word by allowing the Antichrist to overcome the Church during the Tribulation as it seems to imply from the passage above? God cannot lie and He does not break his promises, so we know that when we read the verse above, that this cannot refer to the Church. It is also interesting that the word that is used for Church “ecclesia” is used abundantly in the first three chapters of Revelation. Then it is strangely absent from the text during the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments, and only used again at the second coming of Christ. This is by design, because God will not pour his wrath out over his Bride.
Any view that would see God’s Church go through any the 7-year period of tribulation and any view other than that of a pre-tribulation view, would result in God’s Word contradicting itself and assigning attributes to God that He has clearly stated are not part of his character.
Understanding the passage below as shown, is the only interpretation that in my opinion, does not lead to contradictions:
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (“departure”) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (“the church”) who now letteth will let, until he (“the church”) be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Sorry, the first verse under the three candidates (God, Angels, Church) should be this one –
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
With focus on the “be taken out” action.
(Copy – error)
James no worries ALL GOOD
James, all I can do at this point is ask for patience once again. The above is so well reasoned that it deserves a well reasoned response and I believe I have one, but I have a lot of fundamentally critical ideas to get in place before I can begin assembling the larger picture.
Let me nitpick at one piece of this while acknowledging I agree with much of the whole.
I am not quite convinced that “departure” is a better understanding of “apostasia” than “falling away” is for a couple of reasons, and the main one is context.
If I understand you correctly you’re saying that the “departure” is the church being extracted in a rapture (correct me if I messed that up).
1. Firstly that doesn’t seem to fit the context. If that were true Paul’s overall statements make little sense. First he opens the topic of “..the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him…”
If we assume apostasia means a physical removal, a departure, then Paul would be saying “that day (His coming, our gathering) cannot come until (the departure) He comes and gathers us…” If that were the case he’s not referring to any kind of verifiable landmark we can know must PRECEED His coming. It doesn’t make sense when stated that way.
2. Apostasia is a word that refers to something from the mental or emotional realm – a departure from a belief perhaps as opposed to a physical removal from one place to another. That seems to fit the context best IMO.
If Paul wanted to point to a physical removal of the church, he could have used any one of several Greek words for the purpose, such as “analuo”.
Now, back to my fundamental assumption that simply believing the Word is our best course, I am assuming that if a fundamental premise is flawed, all the reasoning we build on top of it has to be questionable as well.
I’m going to make a statement here, not presented as proof of anything. It’s another attempt to plead for patience
I do believe I have a biblical picture that satisfactorily explains several things I commonly see as objections to the line of thinking I’ve presented so far.
1. God is NOT a wife beater and there is an explanation for why we are here during the time of His wrath that doesn’t require us to believe that. We are not appointed unto wrath…period. But I propose that He has a plan that includes us being here but TOTALLY unaffected by it. We’ve got to establish a whole bunch of different fundamental concepts before that picture emerges. But I assure you He is powerful enough to protect His people in the midst of ANYTHING. The assumption that us being here is equal to Him being unable to protect us from His own actions is where the fundamental flaw lies.
He gave us several “lenses” to view His work and Kingdom through and we’re going to have to take a look at several of them in detail before the whole picture can emerge. Let me give you a short list:
1. The “legal” lens. This lens is found throughout the Bible and is most clearly seen in the places Jesus is described as our “Advocate” (a legal term denoting a defense attorney), satan (which means “adversary”) is portrayed as a prosecuting attorney and “accuser of the brethren” In this picture we see Father presiding as the “Righteous Judge” and the court is a heavenly one. The opening scenes in Job are also a portrayal of this heavenly court and Job’s whole story has this “legal lens” as a backdrop. We’re going to have to dig into this in some detail.
2. The “military” lens. God loves this particular lens of understanding because He uses it a lot
He refers to Himself in Scripture as the “Captain of Hosts” or “Lord of Armies” more than any of His other names by a wide margin. This “martial” lens describes a great deal of His will and purpose and how we fit into that picture is going to have to come into play.
There are several more topics such as the nature of eternal judgement, who the Bride actually is,
the nature of the interaction between heavenly/angelic armies and our own roles on two different battlefields (natural and supernatural)….uggh…and even more but I’ll stop here for now.
I am excited by the work you and A_Smith are doing particularly with reference to this incredible upcoming “sign of the woman” forming in the heavens next year. When I first heard of this near the beginning of this year I was astonished to see how perfectly this celestial sign is mimicking what is recorded in Revelation 12. I know it’s important. I haven’t commented on either of your articles yet because I’m still chewing on them. All I know for certain at this point is the topic is relevant (incredibly so) and its a good one to be peering into. I’m following your work closely, once again due to that heartfelt belief that together we can come to better apprehension of the whole picture as we each share the parts we’ve been given.
See you soon
James,
One more point of context I meant to bring up. If Paul’s overall intent was to reassure the Thessalonians that they had not “missed” His return, and he points to the revealing of the antichrist as something that must occur before He returns and gathers us to Himself, he wouldn’t be making sense if he is also saying we get our “departure” before the second “landmark” occurred. Not much reason to look for something that would occur after we’re already gone.
If the “departure” occurs shortly after the antichrist is revealed then it can’t be pre-tribulation. It would have to happen half way through Daniel’s seventieth week.
There is an explanation
God willing I’ll get it displayed in understandable fashion. I’m honestly debating on whether to keep with this foundation laying tactic or just jump straight to the end and build backwards. Either way, the more I think about this project the more overwhelmed I feel by its size and complexity. He better be in what I’m trying to do or I’m going to fail miserably. It’s bigger than my intellect can reasonably expect to lay out clearly. But, it’s obviously not too big for His. Time will tell how well I manage to listen to and heed His guidance.
Hi Jostler, Thank you for your reply! It is great to debate this and I find each time that we do that the Lord reveals more to me as I ponder the information provided and subjects that we discuss.
Ok, so to reply on your first point:
This is how I understand Paul’s introduction in 2 Thessalonians: Paul addresses the church by announcing the subject of the discussion that will proceed – (the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him). This has led to the confusion in the church of Thessalonica. If Paul stated only this before he moved to verse 3, I would have had to agree with you that it would not make sense for Paul to say that a “departure” needs to occur before “the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him” can take place. This would then have the “event” also preceding itself which does not make sense. Totally agree. However, in verse 2 Paul refers specifically to “the day of Christ” and this is what Paul then references in verse 3 when describing the preceding events. So this means that the “day of Christ” is preceded by our Lord coming as a thief in the night to gather us – the Church – unto him and for the Antichrist to be revealed, which will be the start of the “day of Christ” or the opening of the first seal as described in Revelation 6:1. (Which incidentally – and by God’s design – is also marked by the Revelation 12 sign!)
If we look at what God’s Word says about “the day of Christ” or “the day of the Lord” there are once again two distinctions that can be made. One perspective is from the earth for those who are left behind and another view from heaven for those who will be part of the wedding between the Bride and the Bridegroom. From an earthly perspective we have verses such as:
Isa_13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa_13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
There are many more, but in the interest of space and time, I will just mention those two for now. Then we have the day of the Lord being described by those who would consider it from a heavenly perspective. In the passage below we see Zephaniah describing “the nation not desired” – these are the gentiles – specifically those who have accepted Israel’s Messiah as their Saviour, without seeing him, through faith. Also note the references to the point in time BEFORE “the day of the Lord” arrives and the fact that these will be hidden as shown in the last verse of the following passage:
Zep 2:1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; 2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD’S anger come upon you. 3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD’s ANGER.
Jesus also confirms this in:
Luk_21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Then we have a further reference to this day from Isaiah, which also ties in and expounds on what Paul says in:
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore COMFORT one another with these words.
In the above section it is not clear whether this is before or after the final 7 years on earth, but I believe Isaiah clarifies that for us, where He is pointing to the same events and also provides more information about the timing:
Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Both passages describe the dead being resurrected at the Lord’s coming and those who are alive in Christ being gathered onto him. In the passage from Isaiah however, we see people being hidden from what will happen on earth, in “chambers” that are said to belong to them before the indignation occurs. This passage is directly linked to what Jesus said in:
Joh_14:3 And if I go and PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that WHERE I AM, THERE YE MAY BE ALSO.
From the 4 passages above we can see that this rising of the dead and people entering into their chambers (prepared for us by the Lord) will occur BEFORE the “indignation” (Isa 26:20). We therefore know that when Paul is describing those “which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord” he is referring to those who will be alive at the “thief in the night” appearance of the Lord where we will meet him in the clouds and where He will take us with him to the place that He has been preparing for us over the past 2,000 years. The last verse also excludes the Church’s presence on earth for me during this time as the place that God has been preparing for us is not on earth and the fact that He states that “we will be where He is” which is in heaven and not “we will be where the Antichrist is” which is on earth. I always get chills when I think that God took just 6 days to create the universe and everything in it and that He needed 2,000 years to prepare a place for us! Just imagine what that will be like!
We also see Paul referring to the day of the Lord in the section below as a day of joy – which will certainly not be the case for those who find themselves on earth – see the last verse in this passage:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16 Holding forth the word of life; THAT I MAY REJOICE IN THE DAY OF CHRIST, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
This would then be tied to the passage in Revelation where those who have been awarded crowns of glory in God’s evaluation of the churches and represented here by the 24 elders will cast their crowns before the Lord to the glory of God – the reason for Paul’s joy.
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Notr that this also happens before the first Seal is opened and the Antichrist is revealed.
To address your second comment: “He has a plan that includes us being here but TOTALLY unaffected by it.”
The Word says that there will be none left on earth after the final 7 years on earth except for those of Israel who will be supernaturally protected by God up to the end:
Jer_46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I WILL MAKE A FULL END TO ALL THE NATIONS whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.
This passage does not mention any protection for anybody other than those belonging to Israel. Many people say that those that belong to the Lord is the true Israel, but in my opinion, this would be twisting God’s Word and imply replacement theology. If this was truly the case, why did God go to the lengths of specifying 12,000 people who will be sealed by him during Jacob’s Trouble and mentioning every tribe individually? I think He does this to point out that when He talks about Israel, his intent is for us to understand “the nation of Israel”.
So if God is using Jacob’s Trouble to “make a full end to all the nations” except for Israel, that is exactly what He is saying. We further see that his intention is to lay the land desolate and to destroy the sinners out of it.
Isa_13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
So although I agree that God is fully capable of protecting his Bride through Jacob’s Trouble, I do not find any evidence for it in God’s Word. In the scriptures provided above it is clear to me that God will remove his church from earth, before the Antichrist is revealed and before any of God’s wrath is poured out. Also in the patterns that have been provided to us in similar events of wrath being poured out over the world or cities, we see that God gives us samples of how He acts during these events. He removes his people – that He considers righteous – from harm before He pours out judgment/wrath. See Noah, Lot and Daniel (during the furnace event.)
The fact that Jesus said “WHERE I AM, THERE YE MAY BE ALSO” when He receives us unto him also confirms to me that we will not be on earth, for we will be attending the wedding feast with our Saviour
only returning to earth 7 years later with him, when He comes to rule for 1,000 years over the earth, having the remnant of Israel to repopulate the earth.
Looking forward to your response as always!
Blessings!
Jostler,
I still think you are doing great. You are showing a topic in scripture many would not dare even try to have an open discussion about in a public forum. You mentioned earlier that you were interested in studying the feast. Go back to the Torah and read about those feast. There are 7 of them and Messiah fulfilled the first 4 on his 1st coming and will fulfill the last three on his return. It also helps you get a better understanding of the trumpet and what it was used for in the “gathering together”. In regards to Daniels 70th week, (this is just my opinion) I think Sir Isaac Newton was right on the money with his exegesis of that book. I will provide you with some links if you would like to read those writings and it helped me in my understanding of Daniel and Revelations. http://publicdomainreview.org/collections/sir-isaac-newtons-daniel-and-the-apocalypse-1733/ and another http://appleeye.org/2013/06/07/isaac-newtons-amazing-exegesis-of-daniel-925/. I am enjoying your article and all the comments associated with them. Hope you are having fun with this and people do not get to ugly or out of line in the comments.
This is addressed to those that are making assumptions about Mrs. Green. I do not have to answer to anyone here but I choose to share a little of my background so you know where I am coming from in my path of study.. I have to stand before my Elohiem and let him judge me. He KNOWS MY HEART.. I love Yeshua and am so thankful that he paid the price of Sin and Separation for us. I regard the feast as the appointed “MODIEM” that our Elohiem established for us and I honor those feasts and the Sabbath… Collosians 2:16 makes that clear. I grew up in a southern Baptist church as a pre trib girl and through many years of study and understanding I have come to the conclusions the holy spirit has laid upon my heart. The only person’s opinion that I really care about is my heavenly fathers. I think it is a shame that a person can comment in agreement and give acknowledgement to another human being for enjoying what they write and be condemned in that acknowledgement. It show’s me how close to the return we might actually be with all the ugly that exists in our world. I think you are brave and hope you continue in your writings Jostler. Brotherly love and be blessed Sir. I look forward to the next. I just love to see people share and grow in the WORD!!!
Thanks for those links Mrs. Green. I will be making time to read those in the next day or so. I’ve gotten as far as studying Passover in some detail which involved doing some research on the Hebrew calendar and understanding the differences between the modern calendar and how the Hebrew lunar calendar work.
This year I’ve actually been tracking the unfolding of Passover on both the Hebrew and modern calendars and what I’ve learned so far has been mind boggling. I intend to track the whole year this year and go through each of the feasts as they happen, along with reading general information about all the feasts as the opportunity arises.
Thanks again, I’ll get crackin’
Jostler Opening Pandora’s box, The Rapture (it’s never easy,) You jumped in the deep end as
IT’S despised by MANY down here, (especially church haters), but needs to be done now and again 
Just so you know down here in fairyland THIS subject has been trashed out numerous times over the yrs, So if you have anything NEW I’d advise to, cut to the chase
My understanding about this period and the revealing of the Antichrist.
“Jacobs trouble” is CLEARLY for ISRAEL as HE say’s so “JACOB”
(7 Tribb & Wrath Yrs, the WHOLE shebang) the PAST 69 weeks were “ALL” about ISRAEL, so common sense say’s the LAST FULL (7 yrs ) are “Jacobs trouble” for ISRAEL Hence sending them 144,000 and (2) Prophets witnesses to open their eyes and hearts…new converts will be handed over to the Synagogues etc.
The BRIDE is FIRST not LAST. they are PROMISED a REMOVAL FROM “THAT HR” rev 3:10 I will also keep thee from
the hour 
of temptation,;THE BEAST HR will receive 
one hour 
of authority as kings, along with the beast. 13These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast Revelation 17:12….
HE Y’shua being God would NOT open (1) of the Seals on His Body the BRIDE, especially the Anti-Christ, which is the first seal. “THAT HR ” as He has Authority over the Tribb Saints to kill them.
The next Feast up is the “Festival of Trumpets” the Rapture, the “Festival of Tabernacle” is Last (God dwelling with man on Earth) you CANNOT CHANGE the ORDER as you CANNOT change the order of the CHURCHES ….The Trump of God is Next when we will be gathered
TO HIM… YES, but this is NOT done by Angels as He the LORD receives us UNTO Himself.
16For the Lord
Himself 
will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the 
trumpet of God…1 Thessalonians 4:16
So it’s the Lord who gathers US “Himself” when He comes by “Himself” at the “Trumpet of God” …No Angels and NOT at the Last Trumpet of the 7 Angels trumpets. BUT @ the “Festival of Trumpets”
Matthew 25:10King James Version (KJV)
10 And while they went to buy,
the Bridegroom came 
; and they that were ready went in with 
Him to the marriage: 
and the door was shut.
No Angels, and they went to the Marriage …Where ? the New Jerusalem IN HEAVEN as He PROMISED
If it’s as you say, you believe the Anti-Christ came first ,then How did the Bride the (5) Wise ESCAPE with their HEADS INTACT ?
and more importantly. Where did they GO…?
In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that
I go to prepare a place for you? 
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, 
and receive you unto myself 
John 14:2-3
rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
and he shall go no more out 
: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is 
new Jerusalem, 
which cometh down out of heaven from my God: 
Marriage completed in HEAVEN How did the Bride get there ?
New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God v 10
cheers
…I do know that without spiritual vision, nothing from this point on, will make any sense at all…but without this extra-dimensional sight….Its gonna look mighty scary…and deadly.
…Its all the will of YHVH…what’s to be afraid of?
There we go. Maxwell says we need speshul wu-wu to make sense of it whereas the Bible teaches that we only need eyes or ears and the willingness to study in order to show ourselves approved.
Jostler,
E-SWORD is another great tool that can help you with translation and scripture. It is a free download and offers you STRONG’s translation of the Hebrew and the greek text. You can click on each word in the scripture for the translations as you are reading. It will also give you its understanding of corresponding scripture.
I’ve been using blueletterbible, but never bothered to download E-Sword, but I need to. I take this as yet another little nudge from Him to get it done. We may have some extended seasons without access to the internet before this is all over and it would be a lot better to have a tool like that available in those times than not.
I’ve decided to detour into Daniel a bit for the next article so tonight’s task is to read those two links you provided.
You seem to be a wealth of “nudges” that I recognize as actually coming from Him. Keep nudging
I’m thick headed sometimes and way too slow to obey what I hear.
Believe it or not, someone else brought those exact same links to my attention about two weeks ago. I recognized then it was Him encouraging me to read them but didn’t act on it.
Better late than never, I suppose! Thanks for your service to Him. I am a beneficiary of it
Blah, Blah, Blah, KISS, means ” Keep It Simple Stupid “. We all have learnt knowledge from the outside in rather than from the inside out. This is what will happen, all will discover they are on the wrong path. Then the RAPTURE, humbleness becomes the means back to the sanity, Gods will be done. AMEN
Taken from Lamb and Lion Ministries web page. This says it better than I could explain it. Most of your point boils down to the meaning of the apostasia that you choose to give credence to. Translations have everything to do with this. What this article says about translations prior to the King James is key. This is why I always look to the Geneva Bible for BKJ before King James words before forming opinions.
A New Insight
But recently, my thinking about 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has changed — all because of an outstanding presentation on the subject that I heard Tommy Ice make at a conference where the two of us were speaking.
For those of you who may not be familiar with Tommy Ice, he is a biblical scholar who graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary and who serves as the Director of the Pre-Trib Research Center (www.pre-trib.org).
Tommy pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”
The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from inquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).
This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Tommy presented that was most convicting to me was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.” They were as follows:1
The Wycliffe Bible (1384)
The Tyndale Bible (1526)
The Coverdale Bible (1535)
The Cranmer Bible (1539)
The Great Bible (1540)
The Beeches Bible (1576)
The Geneva Bible (1608)
Tommy also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.”
The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.
One other point Tommy Ice made that I thought was significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:2
Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.
In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable notion.”3 And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].”
This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”
And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church.
Notes
1) Tommy Ice, “Is the Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?” http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRapturein2Thessalonians2_3.html, page 2.
2) Daniel K. Davey, “The ‘Apostasia’ of 2 Thessalonians 2:3,” Th.M. thesis, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary, May 1982, p 47.
3) Tommy Ice, page 2.
- See more at: http://christinprophecy.org/articles/2-thessalonians-2-3/#sthash.I3sxwzIf.dpuf
TransTex
One bit of common ground I see is that whatever else turns out to be the truth about “apostasia” it does appear to refer to some kind of very discernible, recognizable event.
I was not aware of the use of a definite article preceding apostasia in the greek but that certainly seems to nail the idea. Whatever apostasia in fact refers to, it is apparently limited and specific in nature.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 points to THE lie when referring to the end time great deception. Those definite articles certainly do matter. THE lie appears to be referring to something very specific and recognizable as well.
“And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,…”
I recently asked what “the” lie is, and I believe I got an answer, which will be the topic of an upcoming article.
TransTex
You are likely a much better informed scholar in the original greek than I am. I went and looked at those verses listed by Tommy and I couldn’t see the relationship.
Is apo-stasia (stasion) really the noun counterpart of the verb apo-histemi??
I honestly don’t see how apohistemi can be construed as the verb form of apostasia….the meaning of the root words is totally different.
“stasion” has the connotation of a divorce or separation. It’s a negatively charged word. Why would Paul use such a negatively charged word instead of the “harpazo” elsewhere?
“histemi” on the other hand connotes “standing fast”
In any case, I’m far from a greek scholar…over my head when trying to get this deep into the greek.
But, if I’m correct, the surface texts will eventually prove the case well enough without the necessity of parsing the greek to this extent.
TransTex,
Thank you as well for the links. I’ll be perusing those too (*sigh*) LOL! If there is a pre-trib rapture I’m almost bound to miss it ‘cuz I got my nose buried in the interwebs!!
No way Jostler. You can’t get away from Jesus that easy. Good for us when we believe the rapture is or isn’t is not an issue of faith. You will be raptured no matter what you believe. If you are not a pre tribber you will just be that much more delighted
Jostler,
This link might help you also. There is A LOT of information on there. Feast, Newton, Sir Robert Anderson, All in post trib relations… Hope it helps you… http://endtimepilgrim.org/index.htm
good grief girl! My head is still reeling from just trying to absorb Newton’s analysis of Daniel. I found Part 2, Chapter 2 particularly interesting and have a lot of work to do just getting that studied out for myself. I was already aware that we cannot hope to understand prophecy without a thorough understanding of history. Without understanding history we have no way to discern what parts of prophecy have been fulfilled and which are yet to be fulfilled in the future. Newton’s detailed historical analysis added a great deal of detail to a general outline I was already well familiar with. That too is going to take some chewing to integrate with the Word.
But, *sigh*, I saved the link and i’ll hit it very soon.
(and thankyou)
Jostler
This is so true. You have to research in history to understand. Most people think of Newton as just a scientist. But in all actuality, He only devoted 10% of his time to science. The other 90% was devoted to theological study of Daniel, Revelation and biblical history as a whole. I particularly liked his analysis of the time Yeshua preached and when he died in relation to the feast and Passover. He fulfilled the 1st four feast to a T!!! Even when he told Mary you can not touch me for I have not yet accended to the father.. He was the first fruit!! When you read Revelation with the last three feast in mind it makes so much more sense. The trumpets, the attonement (the gathering) and then he tabernacles. Where he will join us and be with us!! (feast of trumpets, feast of attonement ( 10 days) and finally feast of tabernacles).Good Luck… Sorry for the LOAD of info… but I hope it helps you with your articles and study!! It sure did me. I am so thankful to the holy spirit for assisting me in finding true sources!!
Here is another article I thought you might find interesting
http://www.omegaletter.com/articles/articles.asp?ArticleID=8256