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Thy Mystery Of The Blood And Water

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John 19:34&35 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw [it] bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
This statement in John has always intrigued me. It seems to be a very important fact about the crucifixion. It almost seems that John is giving sworn testimony about this fact. He says he saw it with his own eyes and he is telling the truth. So, what does it mean?
Over the years I have asked many ministers and doctors about this. Some suggested that it was blood mixed with fluid from the pericardium. The problem with this is that the pericardium sac only contains about 25mL or 0.845351 ounces of fluid (about one and a half tablespoons); not nearly enough to account for what John saw. It seems that what John saw had forensic or even  legal importance to it by his sworn testimony. After several years of asking, I had decided this is something I may never understand.
One night I was watching a crime mystery show. They were trying to determine whether a body was placed in position before or after death. The person had been shot. When they turned the body over there was a mixture of blood and water underneath. I almost jumped out of my recliner. That was it – that was the answer. The person had to have died in position for blood and water to be under his body. Let me explain why this is important.
Blood is a mixture of cells and plasma. It is 55% plasma and 45% cells. The plasma is 90% water. To stay mixed it has to be constantly agitated. Drawn blood has to be either agitated or have a preservative added to it to keep it separated. You may have seen those “rockers” in a lab or doctors office. The moment a person dies the blood starts to separate.  When gravity pulls the cells out of the plasma the process is called hypostasis. When the cells pool in the lower parts of the body it is called livor mortis. What does it all mean?
When Joseph of Arimathaea asked Pilate for Jesus body, Pilate sent a centurion to make sure that Jesus was really dead. The centurion pierced Jesus side and when he saw the blood and water he knew he was really dead and had been dead for a while. The blood and water proved that Jesus really was dead. That was why the Holy Spirit urged John to record this fact.

The Apostles first preached the Resurrection in the very place where Jesus died. Everyone agrees –  the tomb was empty. If the Jews could have produced the body of Jesus, Christianity would have stopped then and there. No one could deny the fact of the resurrection during time right after it happened. God knew that 2000 years later skeptics like Michael Baigent , Richard Leigh, Henry Lincoln, and Dan Brown would say that he did not really die; he just “swooned”. He had John record this fact so that we would believe that Jesus really died and really rose from the dead.


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    Total 70 comments
    • Maria Vox

      Right on Mike…Good Work!

      • Mike Clinton

        Thanks to my very good friend Maria. You will always be my first friend from BIN. :grin:

        • Mike Clinton

          Forgot the “e”. :oops:

    • Pix

      “And he that saw [it] bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.”

      Sorry but with that much self promotion and with out a 3rd party verification, it proves it’s BS.

      Only the insecure need to self promote in such a way. The bible is full of narcissistic self promotion including calling people foolish for disbelief when there is plenty of historical evidence proving it’s origins are pagan, specifically the story of Osiris, Isis and Horus. There is nothing original or unique about Christian dogma, hence the need to self promote. The truth needs no such help. :wink:

      • Mike Clinton

        Pix, if you are right so what, but if you are wrong…

        • Pix

          I’m not wrong, you have not a single scrap of evidence while there is plenty of evidence that Christianity is plagiarised pagan allegory. Nothing in Christianity is original or unique to it.

    • Pix

      “One night I was watching a crime mystery show. ”

      Which “crime mystery show”? Give us the link so we can verify.

      Other wise everyone with more than one brain cell will assume you are talking out of your butt hole. Making it up as you go alone, which is a very typical religious thing to do as they desperately grasp onto any old straw to justify a belief in superstitious dark age plagiarised pagan allegory.

      • Mike Clinton

        Which crime mystery show? That’s the missing proof? Good one Pix. :lol:

        • Pix

          You have made a reference to a point you are making that has come from a mystery show. Which one, so I can verify your claim that it is indeed making that point?

        • Pix

          If you can’t provide evidence of your claims, it makes you a liar.

        • BEEF SUPREME

          Oye. Pixie.

          Do you have any evidence for a helio-centric solar system handy?

          Do you have any 2000+ year old evidence for all of your favorite claims handy?

          Do you have any evidence that there were any gospel accounts found with the Dead Sea Scrolls handy?

          No? Didn’t think so. What’s that make you now? According to you?

          Oh yeah. A liar.

        • Mike Clinton

          Beef, you have more patience with people like Pix than I do. I have argued with them and tried to nail them down to a single premise to no avail. They attack, then hop, skip, and jump to another subject. They are not interested in getting to a single point; they are only interested in attacking the Bible. I believe you called it: “spewing venom”.

        • Mike Clinton

          Titus 3:10&11 As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.

    • Pix

      Oye. Pixie.

      Do you have any evidence for a helio-centric solar system handy?

      Do you have any 2000+ year old evidence for all of your favorite claims handy?

      Do you have any evidence that there were any gospel accounts found with the Dead Sea Scrolls handy?

      No? Didn’t think so. What’s that make you now? According to you?

      Oh yeah. A liar.”

      Who is Pixie????

      I’m not the one publishing articles making unsubstantiated claims, and then acting like a puerile twat instead of providing the link when asked

      Yes I have evidence that Christianity is plagiarised, the gospel copies found with the DSS are older than the Christian time line.

      All of it is easy to find if you do a web search. It’s all just one click away with all the published paper references and evidence needed.

      I have absolutely no need to lie, seeing as I’m not making any claims. You guys are, usually based on a bad dream, ignorance or down right lies. :lol:



        There isn’t any on-line evidence for gospels found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls. That’s because there never were any gospels found with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

        You have NEVER provided even ONE piece of evidence for all of your lies about the Gospels being based on anything other than TRUTH (that’s TRUTH with a capital ‘T’, hooplehead). All you do is post and repost the same empty crap day in and day out. Don’t your fingers ever get tired of pecking the same keys over and over and over. Don’t you have anything better to do with your time than ranting and railing against something you know you can never damage? Don’t you get bored listening to yourself spouting the same nonsense again and again? And it is to utterly ZERO effect, Pixie, because you have managed to sway the opinion of no one at any time. What are you doing?

        You do have a need to lie. Therefore you lie. I don’t know why you do what you do. I HOPE you are getting paid to do what you do here. Your tenacity suggests to me that you are. If not, you may well be one of the most pitiful men alive on the planet in this day and age. And I do not say this to be mean and spiteful or to try to hurt you. The hours that you spend here repeating the same thing over and over again would be better spent doing almost ANYTHING else.

        Would you do a Bible study here with us? Would you pick a chapter you think you can implode with pagan writings or somehow prove that anything from Scripture has been plagiarized? There are many commenters here who would be happy to engage you in such a study. You can be as adversarial as you like; you only have to be honest and to consider the evidence on its own merits. There is no evidence that can stand against the Scriptures. I would love to be given the chance to demonstrate that to you.

        If not, my original offer still stands. I will give you an American Double Eagle gold coin if you can provide me with ONE piece of evidence that there were ever any gospels found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls. I will fork over the same coin if you can provide evidence older than the Gospels that demonstrates the Gospels are plagiarized, as you love to claim they are.

        I offer. You flee. Then you repost the same crap somewhere else.

        Wanna get busy? Or do you just want to get back to doing what you do — which is nothing much at all.

        • Pix

          The gospels won’t be mentioned as scrolls but in the list of fragments. Only the few complete scrolls are listed as scrolls. All that’s left of the great majority of them after such a long time in an arid location are small fragments. Also they have only identified and translated about half of them so far. Not that I’m claiming that as evidence, but for interest. There are fragments of NT gospels that date to older than the Christian time line. Not from the 4 gospels in the bible there are over 30 known gospels so far. We keep finding more that were buried around the time Christianity was invented and enforced of the entire Roman empire (5th century). They outlawed all other scripture, so they buried them. You will have to look at the full list of fragments.

          Try reading about Egyptian mythology Osiris, Ra and El of the Elohim, ie Is-Ra-El, Isis and Horus. Amenhotep 4th, time line of Exodus, Their original belief system, the oldest Hebrew artifacts, etc. Cleopatra and her son Ceasarion. I have posted links to justify the claims, they are evidence based. If you can’t be arsed to read them at the time, that’s not my problem.

        • Pix

          LOLz at your pointless rant.

          :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

        • BEEF SUPREME


          I have read extensively about Ancient Egypt, Ancient Mesopotamia, Babylonia, Assyria Sumeria, et al. I have done this in an attempt to discredit the Bible, if I could. I don’t care what anyone thinks about anything. I knew I wanted the truth, so I looked for it. I cared not where it led. If it led me to Islam, I would now be preaching Islam. Had it led me to Judaism, I would have changed my name to BEEFENSTEIN. AND IF… if I had proven to myself beyond all reasonable doubt that the Scriptures were a fraudulent invention of man and that YHWH of Hosts did not exist, and after I had exhausted all of the pagan and philosophical avenues… I would have become an angry atheist like you.

          But I found the Truth. So I followed Him. I will follow Him forever, no matter where He leads.

          Are there other writings which men call gospels, aside from the four Gospels of the Scriptures? Yes there are. None of them are worth anything. They are all Gnostic balderdash or Kabbalistic hogwash. Nothing was found in or amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls which is even REMOTELY problematic for the authentic Scriptures as they exist today.

          For months now you have been yammering on and on about some writings or fragments included in the find at Qumran which, according to you, is damaging to the scriptural narrative. No such animal exists, Pix. Nothing found at Qumran is a problem for the Scriptures. Nothing at all.

          Gnostic and mystic writings are all from the enemies of YHWH of Hosts. There are no exceptions to this statement.

          You began this exchange by accusing a man of being a liar because he, according to you, neglected to produce substantiating evidence in support of his claims. How are you now not an unmitigated hypocrite and a hooplehead for doing the exact same thing?

          I’ve read everything you have Pix. I’ve read more than you have. I don’t say this to brag (well, maybe just a little) but I say it to make a point: If you had made the extensive search of the evidence that I have made, you would be walking along a much different Path. Your Master and your Creator will not be denied. He does not ask much of you, yet you spit at Him whenever you can. You can thank His mercy and His patience that He has not yet beaten you to pieces for your insolence.

          If you were as tenacious in pursuit of the truth as you are in your endeavor to besmirch it, you and I would be having a much different conversation.

          Neither Isis nor Horus nor Ra nor Set nor Diana nor Dionysus have any bearing at all on the Truth. Truth existed before them all, and will exist after every memory of them has been swept clean from the Heavens and the Earth.

          Look for Him Pix. Even if only in an effort to prove yourself right. Knock on the door and see who opens it.

    • Anonymous

      I think you missed the more important point.

      Jesus died over the Ark of the Covenant. According Ron Wyatt there was an earthquake that cracked the ground the cross was in allowing the blood, now thinned with water to drip to the crack and many feet under it drip on to the Ark of the Convenant.

      The final sacrifice required by God in the OT. How fitting! So it not only proved Jesus was in fact dead (a requirement) but the water thinned the blood allowing it to drip on the Altar (another requirement).

      ​God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it? (Num 23:19)

      • Mike Clinton

        No, I didn’t miss it. I know about Ron Wyatt’s claims. He was a disciple of Ellen G. White. You won’t find me “missing” any of her claims either.

        • Anonymous

          Who cares about Ellen White. What Ron said makes sense. I think he was onto something. You know they belittled Jesus too.

        • Mike Clinton

          You like Ron Wyatt and believe him; that’s fine. The point was I didn’t “miss” what he said. We probably agree on everything else, so let’s agree to disagree on this. :cool:

    • wizard

      What intrigues me most about the bible is the authors. Was there some one on hand at all occasions to record these events on some thing like a G pad. Or was a piece of papyrus always at the ready. Was every thing signed off as a true statement of fact and by whom. And what is Gods native tongue. Just who was the scribe recording this as it happened. If you believe the bible to be true and accurate, the writings for genesis happened at a time when writing had not yet been invented. Who recorded the conversation between the devil and eve. Was it passed from adam to cain and able and their siblings.
      And who did cain and able conceive with. Their mother or sisters perhaps.

      • Mike Clinton

        Scribes are mentioned all through the Bible. They wrote on vellum and papyrus.

        Writing predates Genesis by hundreds of years. Google it.

        Adam had many children not just Cain and Able.

        Gen. 5:4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Henry Morris estimates that, by the time Cain died, there could easily have been 120,000 people on the earth (certainly enough for there to be cities)

        Gen. 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

        • wizard

          Are you saying that adam or eve had writing instruments in the garden of eden?

        • Mike Clinton

          Does this mean you agree with my other points?

          What happened in Eden existed as an oral record until it became a written record.

    • Mike Clinton

      Oh my, someone has watched Zeitgeist. Can anyone guess who?

      • Pix

        Just answer the question, what TV show were you referring to?

        I’m sure nobody is interested in your presumptions on who has watched what. Besides, the excellent research presented by Zeitgeist came from leading theologists, not from atheists. So not sure what point you are trying to make. Perhaps you could enlighten everyone?

        • Mike Clinton

          Read my article Pix. The show does not verify anything. I just saw a body with blood and water under it there. That is all. I don’t even remember what show it was.

          The research presented in Zeitgeist came directly from Helena Petrovna Blavatsky.


      Pix forces me to repost his entire comment which is likely to be removed by BIN due to profanity.

      Pix wrote:

      “Stop making this all about me. My question to the poster of this article was to quote the TV program he claims verified his point. It’s an interesting claim so I want to check he isn’t [B.S.-ing]. I don’t think that is an unreasonable request. So far he has done everything but. You as well.”

      BEEF responds:

      Why is it that everyone BUT you is required to produce evidence on demand? I’ve been going in circles with you for over six months now. Not ONCE have you ever produced a single valid piece of evidence for any of your preposterous claims. Not once Pix. And me? I don’t initiate these debates, you may have noticed. I only respond to what is said. I respond to the articles and I respond to commenters like you. Why do I need evidence for that?

      Pix wrote:

      “Stop lying about your so called extensive knowledge, you know nothing. I know this for a fact because there isn’t a 1st year theology student who isn’t aware that Christian dogma is not original to Christianity, and the oldest version comes from Egyptian pagan allegory about the sun.”

      BEEF responds:

      Cheerio hooplehead. If I wanted to learn all about Church Doctrine or Catholic Mythology, then I would sign up for a stint at the seminary. Theology is what man thinks about some cat called ‘God.’ You have mistaken me for someone who is even the least bit interested in such vanity. I’m interested in Truth. I could not possibly care less what man thinks about ‘God.’ Truth is found written in the Scriptures as the Word of YHWH Elohim Most High.

      Pix continues:

      “Osiris, Isis and Horus. There are other later but preChristian versions of the same, Mithras and the Persian Magi (three wise men fame) and Dagon, being the largest groups in the middle east and Europe.”

      BEEF sends it home:

      Who are these? Friends of yours? There is no PRE YHWH of Hosts other than The Father Himself. This list of Ba’alim you here provide (for some inexplicable reason) has nothing to say about anything. Is there meant to be some meaning in your final sentence here? These pagan pretenders have usurped the narrative of the Gospel and twisted the message of the Testament; not the other way around.

      Put up some evidence that anything you say is true or stop complaining when no one will bother extending you a similar courtesy. Then go look for a mirror to gaze into and ask yourself what you hope to accomplish by running in small circles, drunk on the fumes of your own empty gas tank. Your time would be far better spent studying the inspired Word of YHWH Elohim Most High.

    • Pix

      ” I would have become an angry atheist like you.”

      It’s a common mistake from theists to believe atheists are angry because they disagree with you. Especially when all the evidence backs them up. You asked me earlier to do a bible study with you and to pick a scripture. You choose, but pick one that has iron clad 3rd party verification as to its authenticity… good luck with that, you’ll need a small miracle.

      Honestly you are being far more than childish with such a comment, like shallow, insecure and bitter because of it. Get over it, like we all get over the false belief in Santa. Just a suggestion of course. :wink:


        Are you not angry Pix? Why then are the moderators here at BIN consistently required to delete your comments because of the language you employ? Are you in the habit of peppering your postings with profanity merely because you like the smell of your own bile?

        Of course not. You become profane when you are frazzled. I frazzle you because you know I don’t take you even the slightest bit seriously. I don’t address you the way I do simply to disrespect you — I do it because you command no respect. You command no respect because you are dishonest to your core.

        I notice too that the more agitated you become during our various exchanges, the looser your command of your English language writing skills becomes.

        You are angry, Pix. You are angry at me, you are angry at yourself, and you are angry at your Creator because you are unhappy. You are unhappy because you presume to know how He should conduct His affairs and how He should run His world. You presume to know His mind and you don’t even know you own mind.

        • BEEF SUPREME

          (“you own mind” That’s what I get for impugning Pixie’s writing skills. Doom on me.)

          • Mayhem

            So it’s not just me then, whew: it’s why i stopped being a spelling queen. Right on though Beef, many have seen events transpire these last six months.

            Come on Pix, it’s a fair call. You’ve never really gained ground in your prolific and repetitive attacks upon Scripture. Beef said it best.

            This list of Ba’alim you here provide (for some inexplicable reason) has nothing to say about anything. Is there meant to be some meaning in your final sentence here? These pagan pretenders have usurped the narrative of the Gospel and twisted the message of the Testament; not the other way around.

            Beef Supreme.

            • Pix

              “Come on Pix, it’s a fair call”

              For what, asking the author to quote which tv program he was talking about? Eventually he admitted it was a load of rubbish. And then having to put up with being attacked and accused of all sorts of nonsense? You people are so special, I ask a simple question and you turn into a bun fight all about me?

              I was asked to provide evidence by Beef Supreme after he accused me of not providing any in other unrelated article comments, which is not true, I do post links. He was not specific, what do you guys want the whole list of everything I’ve ever researched?


            • Pix

              ” These pagan pretenders have usurped the narrative of the Gospel and twisted the message of the Testament; not the other way around.”

              Osiris, Isis, Horus = c5’000 BCE

              Christianity = 4th century CE.

              Paganism is thousands of years older than Christianity, so please explain what you mean by your comment that pagans twisted the testament? Had a time machine did they?


            • Pix

              Basic time line of your religion:

              Paganism = earliest known spirituality to c1’300BCE

              C1’300BCE Amenhotep 4th invented first mono deity religion, enforced it on entire Egyptian empire.

              C1’000BCE Judaism invented by fleeing Egyptian slaves.

              4th century CE Christianity commissioned by Roman emperor Constantine, enforced on entire Roman empire.

              So in what way has paganism usurped the narrative of the Gospel and twisted the message of the Testament”?

              It’s a simple question, not an attack on scripture, but a question about your comment. Just so you don’t try to change the subject and turn it into another bun fight over some unspecified thing I said in some other thread.

            • BEEF SUPREME

              Right Ho Pixtastrophe…

              Last time I’m ever going to type this out longhand to you…

              Nah, I change my mind. I’ve already written it out to you about four thousand times. You pretending to have forgotten my two main points of contention is not as amusing as it once was:

              1. Does anyone doubt that the Ba’alim preexisted (as you say) ‘Christianity’? We doubt it not. But anything that resembles the biblical Gospel narrative from these pagan pretenders has been CHANGED to resemble the biblical narrative well AFTER the Gospels were written. No one (not you and not the producers of ZEITGEIST) can produce even the most meager shred of evidence that contradicts this statement — and there is money riding on it (not that there needs to be, or even should be).

              2. Show ANY evidence from the Qumran find (Dead Sea Scrolls), no matter how ‘fragmentary’, that there are ANY gospel accounts included with that find.

              You can produce lists of the Ba’als until the cows come home, Pixter. You know exactly what you are doing. And I have tired of playing your game. Worthier adversaries await elsewhere.

            • Pix

              So lets’s get this straight, according to you ancient inscriptions that have been dated to c5’000 BCE have been changed to mirror the historically unsubstantiated Jesus character invented in the 4th century CE?

              This is not a new claim I am making but has been noted, written about for centuries by leading Christian theologists, who had everything to lose and nothing to gain by doing so. As such they are super qualified sources. A few examples:

              “Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun. Next to the gods Ormuzd and Ahrimanes, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. He was represented as a beautiful youth and a Mediator. Reverend J. W. Lake states: “Mithras is spiritual light contending with spiritual darkness, and through his labors the kingdom of darkness shall be lit with heaven’s own light; the Eternal will receive all things back into his favor, the world will be redeemed to God. The impure are to be purified, and the evil made good, through the mediation of Mithras, the reconciler of Ormuzd and Ahriman. Mithras is the Good, his name is Love. In relation to the Eternal he is the source of grace, in relation to man he is the life-giver and mediator” (Plato, Philo, and Paul, p. 15).

              The International Encyclopedia states: “Mithras seems to have owed his prominence to the belief that he was the source of life, and could also redeem the souls of the dead into the better world … The ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power, played a prominent part.”

              “Chambers Encyclopedia says: “The most important of his many festivals was his birthday, celebrated on the 25th of December, the day subsequently fixed — against all evidence — as the birthday of Christ. The worship of Mithras early found its way into Rome, and the mysteries of Mithras, which fell in the spring equinox, were famous even among the many Roman festivals. The ceremonies observed in the initiation to these mysteries — symbolical of the struggle between Ahriman and Ormuzd (the Good and the Evil) — were of the most extraordinary and to a certain degree even dangerous character. Baptism and the partaking of a mystical liquid, consisting of flour and water, to be drunk with the utterance of sacred formulas, were among the inauguration acts.”

              Prof. Franz Cumont, of the University of Ghent, writes as follows concerning the religion of Mithra and the religion of Christ: “The sectaries of the Persian god, like the Christians’, purified themselves by baptism, received by a species of confirmation the power necessary to combat the spirit of evil; and expected from a Lord’s supper salvation of body and soul. Like the latter, they also held Sunday sacred, and celebrated the birth of the Sun on the 25th of December…. They both preached a categorical system of ethics, regarded asceticism as meritorious and counted among their principal virtues abstinence and continence, renunciation and self-control. Their conceptions of the world and of the destiny of man were similar. They both admitted the existence of a Heaven inhabited by beatified ones, situated in the upper regions, and of a Hell, peopled by demons, situated in the bowels of the Earth. They both placed a flood at the beginning of history; they both assigned as the source of their condition, a primitive revelation; they both, finally, believed in the immortality of the soul, in a last judgment, and in a resurrection of the dead, consequent upon a final conflagration of the universe” (The Mysteries of Mithras, pp. 190, 191).

              Reverend Charles Biggs stated: “The disciples of Mithra formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy. They possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life. They had a Eucharist, and a Baptism, and other curious analogies might be pointed out between their system and the church of Christ “(The Christian Platonists, p. 240).

              McClintock and Strong wrote: “In modern times Christian writers have been induced to look favorably upon the assertion that some of our ecclesiastical usages (e.g., the institution of the Christmas festival) originated in the cultus of Mithraism. Some writers who refuse to accept the Christian religion as of supernatural origin, have even gone so far as to institute a close comparison with the founder of Christianity; and Dupuis and others, going even beyond this, have not hesitated to pronounce the Gospel simply a branch of Mithraism” (Art. “Mithra”).

              “The Christian Father Manes, founder of the heretical sect known as Manicheans, believed that Christ and Mithra were one. His teaching, according to Mosheim, was as follows: “Christ is that glorious intelligence which the Persians called Mithras … His residence is in the sun” (Ecclesiastical History, 3rd century, Part 2, ch. 5).

              So quite honestly I can say with 100% confidence that you are talking out of your anus. :wink:

            • BEEF SUPREME



              FOOL!!! NO ONE in the Bible was born on DECEMBER 25th.

              Nothing in the above posted information is in ANY WAY the kind of evidence I have DEMANDED of you. You are an absolute waste of time.

              2000 year old evidence.

              You have lied your head off over and over, and you continue to expose yourself for a deluded clown. You have NO IDEA what is written in the verses of Scripture because you have NEVER READ THE BOOK. You are dust in the wind.

              A five year old can understand my meaning better than you can.

              You, supposedly a professor, are UNABLE to wrap your mediocre brain around this very simple concept: YOUR EVIDENCE MUST BE OLDER THAN NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURE. The tripe that you have cited DOES NOT QUALIFY. And anything you can point to which is in fact OLDER than the New Testament Scriptures BEARS NO RESEMBLANCE (other than in your imagination) to the written Word.

              I have finished wasting my time with you. You feign thick-headedness rather than admit that you are wrong. Carry on in your idiocracy. With any luck, you’ll meet people some day who WILL take you seriously, but of course they themselves will have to be as willfully ignorant and impervious to the truth as you are — and such is a rare find indeed.

              You are completely and utterly without excuse.

              Carry on in your delusions. Enjoy your countdown to the emptyness which awaits you.

            • Mike Clinton

              Did Mithrus have a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
              This saying is appealed to also by Freke and Gandy [Frek.JM, 49], and it took me some digging to discover it’s actual origin. Godwin says that the reference is from a “Persian Mithraic text,” but does not give the dating of this text, nor say where it was found, nor offer any documentation; that I found finally in Vermaseren [Verm.MSG, 103] — the source of this saying is a medieval text; and the speaker is not Mithras, but Zarathustra! Although Vermaseren suggested that this might be the formula that Justin referred to (but did not describe at all) as being part of the Mithraic “Eucharist,” there is no evidence for the saying prior to this medieval text. (Freke and Gandy, and now Acharya, try to give the rite some ancestry by claiming that it derives from an Iranian Mithraic ceremony using a psychadelic plant called Haoma, but they are clearly grasping at straws and adding speculations of meaning in order to make this rite seem similar to the Eucharist.) This piece of “evidence” is far, far too late to be useful — except as possible proof that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity! (Christianity of course was in Persia far earlier than this medieval text; see Martin Palmer’s Jesus Sutras for details.)

              J.P. Holding

            • Pix

              The 3rd century is not the medieval period, it’s the dark ages. Mithras is a later version of the Egyptian Horus story. Three is no arguing with a 5’000 year lead.

            • Mike Clinton

              Who said anything about the 3rd century? Did Horus have a communion? Was he born on Dec. 25th?

            • Pix

              ” Did Horus have a communion? Was he born on Dec. 25th?”

              Yes, in fact all of solar deities are born on 25th december. That is because the sun dies on 21st december, the winter solstice. The sun is at the lowest point on the horizon and doesn’t move from that low point for 3 days, hence the 3 days in the cave/grave/tomb, and then a resurrection/rebirth on 25th, because the sun is clearly higher in the sky by 25th. All of the solar traditions have a baptism and eucharist.

              There is no baptism in Judaism. For a rabbi from an aesthetic strict Jewish cult, preaching to keep all the old Jewish laws better than the law keepers, and then practising and preaching to practice the pagan rebirthing ceremony would have resulted in him being stoned to death for blasphemy. :wink:

            • Pix

              There are lots of different forms of baptism in paganism. Ie, the native American version involves sitting in a small tent called a sweat lodge where you go through all the dross in your life you want to get rid of and sweat it out, then you rush into the nearest lake or river to wash it all away, emerging as a new person. It’s the most obvious version still in existence to use as an example.

            • Mike Clinton

              Horus was not born on December 25th, he was born on the 5th day of the “Epagomenal Days”3, which does not even take place in December on the modern or ancient calendars, but rather between August 24th and 28th, but in terms of the rising of Sirius (August 4), they are July 30th through August 3rd[4].

            • Pix

              “Joseph McCabe, a Catholic priest for many years, writes:

              …Virginity in goddesses is a relative matter.

              Whatever we make of the original myth…Isis seems to have been originally a virgin (or, perhaps, sexless) goddess, and in the later period of Egyptian religion she was again considered a virgin goddess, demanding very strict abstinence from her devotees. It is at this period, apparently, that the birthday of Horus was annually celebrated, about December 25th, in the temples. As both Macrobius and the Christian writer [of the "Paschal Chronicle"] say, a figure of Horus as a baby was laid in a manger, in a scenic reconstruction of a stable, and a statue of Isis was placed beside it. Horus was, in a sense, the Savior of mankind. He was their avenger against the powers of darkness; he was the light of the world. His birth-festival was a real Christmas before Christ.”


            • Pix

              Please provide the source material to your arguments. Otherwise it’s just so much hot air. :wink:

            • Pix

              Presumably this is what you are referring to


              Samhain is the new year in paganism. it marks the Feast of the Dead, Halloween. It’s that time of year where growth has stopped and death is imminent. They thought they could communicate with the dead at that time of year because life still exists at the same time death is imminent. Many Pagans also celebrate it as the old Celtic New Year (although some mark this at Imbolc).

              Egyptians believed that after you died your soul travelled the underworld for a while, which corresponds in the year with winter. The final end would be after your heart was weight against a feather. If your heart was heavier you would be devoured by a huge dog like beast, if lighter you would enter paradise and eventually reborn, reincarnation, which corresponds with spring.

            • Pix

              Basically they thought the opposite way around to us, which is why we get so confused. To the Egyptians and ancient pagans, death was the beginning of the cycle not the ending.


      You think I’m being nasty when I call you ‘hooplehead’ or ‘goobersmoocher’? That’s not nasty, Pixie. Those are terms of endearment.

      • Pix

        “…terms of endearment….”

        WTF? Erm, sorry mate I don’t swing that way. I’m British, we don’t do blow jobs on a first date either.

        :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

        • BEEF SUPREME

          Disgusting British “humor.”

    • Pix

      @Mike “Read my article Pix. The show does not verify anything. I just saw a body with blood and water under it there. That is all. I don’t even remember what show it was.”

      So you admit it’s an unsubstantiated load of codswallop then?

      “The research presented in Zeitgeist came directly from Helena Petrovna Blavatsky.”

      Er no it wasn’t, a quick search shows this person is extensively used.

      All the references she used are listed, Blavatsky is not mentioned at all. If you select the references and books quoted, they will give you more references.

      • Mike Clinton

        Acharya S wrote Christ Conspiracy which has many references to Blavatsky’s teaching with direct quotes on pages 93, 169, and 284.

        This is in the bibliography:
        Helena Blavatsky “The Secret Doctrine”

        Acharya S was trying to externalize the occult teaching of Blavatsky.

        • Pix

          Not in relationship to anything Zeitgeist was saying. You claimed it was entirely based on Blavatsky, no it wasn’t. Acharya_S was used extensively but not solely or entirely. Her work is pretty iron clad as it happens and accademically recognised as such. Not sure what sort of point you are trying to make amongst all your false accusations and straw man arguments.

          You accused me of being slippery in not answering questions earlier, “Beef, you have more patience with people like Pix than I do. I have argued with them and tried to nail them down to a single premise to no avail. They attack, then hop, skip, and jump to another subject. They are not interested in getting to a single point; they are only interested in attacking the Bible. I believe you called it: “spewing venom”.

          Asking a simple question is attacking you????? You guys are the ones who find it hard answering simple questions, change the subject and then accuse me of attacking???? WTF???

        • BEEF SUPREME

          Jordan Maxwell (another Blavatsky disciple) scatters the same offal from the same rubbish bucket as the producers of Zeitgeist and Blavatsky herself.

          None of them can produce a shred of evidence that their claims are anything but lies. They, like you, swear that the Gospel accounts have been based on similar events described in pagan religious documents — that the Gospels borrowed heavily (stole is the word) the entire story in the New Testament from earlier pagan narratives.

          YOU ARE ALL LIARS. Blavatsky was a queen liar. Maxwell, the producers of Zeitgeist and YOU Pix, are all liars. You (and them) have been challenged (ad nauseum) to justify this ridiculous charge of yours.

          This charge of yours (actually Blavatsky’s) sounds at first as though it may be very damaging to the Gospel narrative. If it were true, it might indeed be a very serious problem for the New Testament. But it is nothing but 100% invention. It is nothing but 100% fabrication. The entire message is fraudulent. And so is ANYONE who propagates it, knowing full-well that it consists entirely of scum and filthy lies.

    • Hawbs

      thanks to mr. clinton for his good article. i love to read and understand the bible. sometimes i like to see how other people’s holy spirit interprets the Good Word. i would love to see a story of the 7 churches in revelations. mr. clinton, what do you think is the reason blood and water came out of Yahushua at His demise? or anyone’s opinion here. i wonder about this. the spiritual reason not the medical reason. could it have something to do with baptism?

      • Mike Clinton

        Thanks for the encouragement. As i said in the article I think the blood and water was proof that Jesus really died and did not just swoon. The swoon theory started in the eighteen century but was widely spread later by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln in their 1982 book “Holy Blood, Holy Grail”. It is Satan’s attack on the very foundation of Christianity: the Resurrection. God anticipated this and had John record a fact that forensically proved that Jesus really died.

    • DanielDavid

      The ‘men over 40′ commercial guy is an evolution moron. His product may be good but his world view sucks. Pun intended.

    • Mike Clinton

      Beef, your posts have been excellent. The dating of the quotes of the followers of Maxwell et al is eye opening. Thanks!!!

    • Hawbs

      dear pix, after reading all these comments, i don’t know if you are an atheist, agnostic, or egyptian worshiper. you debunk any christian comments. you, of course, don’t have to tell me what you believe. i just want to know if you have feelings like i have. i feel like there is an afterlife, i feel Yahuwah’s presence around me, i miraculously get my prayers answered, i feel evil influences sometimes, i see great beauty in Yahuwah’s creation, i feel more peaceful when i pray, i feel my life is a blessed gift. pix, do people who have your opinions ever have feelings like this?

      • no2lies

        You know who else thought God was talking to them?… Charles Manson. So don’t give us your rubbish about praying and having some sort of super natural superiority over others… You are mad. I hope you all don’t live this lie for the rest of your lives. That would be truly sad.

    • Anonymous

      It was also to fulfill prophecy that the Messiah was not going to have any broken bones. For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, ” NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.”

      The passage was prophesied in

      Exodus 12:46
      Numbers 9:12
      Psalm 34:20

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