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Whistler Blowers, Insiders
Truthseeker,
You said:
“Here are scriptures showing the Law was in place even before creation and afterwards as well. You are encouraged to demonstrate why these scriptures do not show the Holy Law of God did not pre-exist creation and Moses”
I do not have a problem with the Law existing ahead of time, so no argument from me there.
Also, I do not dispute that Jesus did not come to destroy the Law. Again, no argument from me there.
You said:
“The Law only shows us point by point what is sin”
Again, I agree with that.
You said:
“The only reason to want to be freed from the duty to obey God’s Law is to continue in sin.
What other reason can there be?”
OK, now we’re getting into disagreements. It is not a matter of wanting or not wanting to be freed from the Law, it is a matter of what the Word says. And all of these following Scriptures are powerful arguments against all of what you are saying:
“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
— John 1:17
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
— Romans 6:14
“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
— Galatians 5:4
“But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”
—Acts 15:11
You said:
“Christ wants you to obey Him and thus love Him by keeping His Commandments”
What about John 13:34, the NEW commandment of Jesus? That is not part of the Law.
Truthseeker, I do not claim we should purposely sin because we are under grace. Here is my position on all of this:
While it is true that the Law of Moses was made obsolete when Jesus was nailed to the cross and died for the sins of mankind (see Hebrews 8:13), the Law will not be done away with until this present earth and heaven disappear. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, which remains intact for this present heaven and earth (see Matthew 5:17-18). Then when the Alpha and Omega creates the new heavens and the new earth (see Revelation 21:5), the obsolete Law of Moses will be done away with permanently and the new eternal order of things, the age to come, will apply as spoken of by the Book of Revelation, the Book of Ezekiel, and other books in the Bible. However, for those who belong to the High Priest Jesus, who is in the order of Melchizedek (see Hebrews 5:6), we can partake now, by faith, of the eternal things to come, of the age to come. We can enter into the Most Holy of Holies in heaven via the blood of the Jesus. We are free now from the Law of Moses as we can now partake of the age to come by faith. That freedom however, does not give one a license to commit sin. That would be insulting the Spirit of grace.
am123
Wow!
I concede:
I hope one of the Apostles explains all of this to you in the 2nd resurrection. Your doctrine is like a Gordian knot and I have no clue where to even begin to find a starting place.
Straightening out what you have assembled requires your blackboard being wiped clean and starting over fresh from the beginning.
See you later.
Truthseeker,
I have a hypothetical question for you. Suppose a few years from now, Israel rebuilt the Temple and they cleansed it properly according to the Law and so forth and they instituted the Law of Moses again. Would you then travel to Jerusalem to offer the sacrifices prescribed by the Law for your sins? In other words, how would it affect the way you do business, so to speak?
am123,
you are in error, the sacrificial law is not part of the Law of Moses, it was added later because of Sin.
The Law of Moses is the 10 Commandments, the Statues and the Judgments. the Sabbath and the Holy Days of God along with the Sabbatical law are included, but not the sacrificial Law.
Jeremiah 7: 22
22 “For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning the matter of burnt offerings or sacrifices.”
23 “But this thing commanded I them saying “Obey My voice, and I will be your God and ye shall be My people and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you that it may be well unto you.”
Paul understood this fact well:
Galatians 3: 19
19 “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions till the seed should come to who the promise was made and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.” (Moses)
the sacrificial Law that was Added shows us the need for a sacrifice for our sins.
Jesus Christ fulfilled the sacrificial Law by His one time sacrifice on the stake. The Jews will sacrifice because they do not accept Christ’s sacrifice.
How can the 10 Commandments be added because of sin – they define sin. Without them there is no sin. How can they be added because of sin?
No one is justified by the blood of bulls and goats but the animal sacrifice is the school master that leads us to Christ.
I no longer need to sacrifice animals, Christ is my sacrifice, my Passover, my sin is paid by His blood alone.
am123 I have no bad feelings towards you, it is just this world is one mass of confusion and very frustrating to deal with. God says their faces are hard as stone.
just like what I just wrote above most have not one clear logical thought about the sacrificial law not being in the Law of Moses, and probably don’t even care.
If you understand the point I am making please let me know. It is the Truth.
Actually TS, I cannot understand the point you are making and that is because I associate the sacrifices with the law of Moses because of the Word:
“Also Jehoiada appointed the offices of the house of the Lord by the hand of the priests the Levites, whom David had distributed in the house of the Lord, to offer the burnt offerings of the Lord, as it is written in the law of Moses, with rejoicing and with singing, as it was ordained by David.”
—2 Chronicles 23:18
“Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.”
— Ezra 3:2
But having said that, I agree with you 100% that “Christ is my sacrifice, my Passover, my sin is paid by His blood alone”.
So let us end on that point of agreement and I’ll agree to disagree with you on the rest.
am123
God gave us a logical mind, when you read what Jeremiah said, here is what logic says;
a sacrifice for sin was not needed at the beginning, the contract was made and the 10 Commandments was an integral part of the contract. The contract states is you keep my Commandments I will physically bless you with rain, protection from enemy’s, good crops etc if you don’t I will punish you. That is it.
in Deut.4:13 the covenant He commanded them to perform -was the 10 Commandments, no mention of sacrifice.
Because they were carnal physical humans they could not keep the Law and they were condemned to death. the Sacrificial law was added to show them the need for Christ to come and be their Passover lamb and remove the debt of sin (Not remove the Law) Every time they sinned and animal died, the point — SIN KILLS.
The Law was until Christ, the Sacrificial Law was until Christ. Doing those animals sacrifice was their school master until Christ Came.
Everything Moses taught and wrote is commonly called the Law of Moses, but the Sacrificial Law was not a part of the Law of the Covenant. So says Jeremiah.
If as you say the whole law was nailed to the stake, then man has no need of the sacrifice of Christ. If the Law is taken away – then it is not sin to lie, or murder, or steal. The Law is either in force or it is not.
AM123
Reread Isaiah 28 again, God’s Word was not written as a straight up easy to under book of instructions, but “That they might go and fall backward and be broken and snared and taken”.
If we have, and we do, 4000 variations of doctrine opposed each to the other, fighting with no agreement, it is because God knew the carnal mind of man would do so. The Word of God is only opened to each person by the Father as they are called. Until that time they will be in confusion. The so called christian religion is in confusion.
TS,
Well, I guess we can say we have 90% agreement. I keep 9 of the 10 commandments and considering that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, I am on firm ground because of Paul’s teachings as I believe one day is no more special than another:
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
—Romans 14:5-6
“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:”
— Colossians 2:16
am123
Except the Sabbath is a VERY special sign.
Understand if one is a true begotten son of God they are thus of the House of Israel, gentiles are grafted in. Only the House of Israel is included in the old and new Covenant.
Exodus 31: 13
“Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, ” Verily My Sabbbath’S’ ye shall keep–
For it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations: that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.”
14 ” Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore for it is HOLY unto you—-”
16″ Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations FOR A PERPETUAL COVENANT”.
So despite it is HOLY unto you and I and a PERPETUAL COVENANT and it allow us to know we are sanctified by God and we are commanded to keep the 7th Day Sabbath, we no longer must keep it but can now chose or not chose to keep any day we wish???
Sorry I will obey the Lord my God. The one that changes not.
am123
Back to the Sabbath:
Roman 14, the context of this chapter is not regarding keeping or not keeping the Sabbath but eating and drinking.
To twist this to say one can chose which day is his sabbath is just that a huge twisting of scripture. Remember the old catholic dogma of no meat on Friday, this is regarding the same kind of traditions and man made religions. If one is honest, this is a huge stretch to use it to end the Sabbath.
Colossians 2:16 has been twisted as well. the gist of this scripture is not do what ever you want regarding the Sabbath and Holy Days but :::
do not let anyone but the body of Christ,the Ecclesia, judge you regarding how YOU DO keep THE SABBATH and it included the Holy Days as well –Why because THEY are shadows of things to come making them very important.
In other words, the Sabbath and the Holy Days are shadows of events in the Plan of God, follow what the Ecclesia teaches regarding these days.
Also read the comment above this one, the Sabbath is not just the 7th act of Creation and is not just the 4th Commandment but is a special sign God created for HIS Elect.
If you diligently study my friend you will find it is very very hard to rid ones self of God’s.
Sabbath. I do not believe you can find anything in the Word of God that God made HOLY, made for Holy use and then God pitches it out.
TS,
Here’s a website that says they’ll give you $10,000 if you can prove the Sabbath in the NT. It seems like it should be right up your alley. I have no idea what this site is, but just came across it.
http://www.bible.ca/7-$10,000.htm
am123
If God had made it that simple, there would be no controversy. remember when I quoted Isaiah 28, the Bible was not written like a college text book, truth is scattered here and there and spiritual truth is only understood by a person having the down payment of the Seed of God the Father, the Holy Spirit.
If the Truth Christ brought with Him was understandable by the carnal human mind why was Christ only able to find 120 out of the 10′s of thousands that heard Him personally
Did you ever stop to think God does not want many at all to understand so they will not be held accountable? Even the carnal are held accountable for what they know.
Christ spoke in parables so they would not understand.
Truthseeker.
Why is this pointless discussion of Christian scripture in the Spirituality section and not in the Christian section?
Don’t get me wrong there is nothing wrong with discussing your scripture between yourselves, but that’s not what you are doing is it, you are demanding your version is superior. You know they are not going to agree with your version don’t you? I think you are no better than the worst of them, because you are demanding other people believe your personal interpretation, which is nothing more than politics, not spirituality.
PIX
I have stated in most of what I write that the spiritual things of God can only be understood when the ability to understand is given by God. The carnal mind of man can never understand the Spirit. Why do you suppose there are so many flavors of so called christianity?
I have written to you repeatedly that your equating christianity with paganism is actually correct.
When I write and comment, as I do, I fully realize my words can never by them self convert a single person, BUT in the event there is that one person that is being Called by God the Father that reads and then begins to seek after God, my work was not in vain.
Pix, there is no personal interpretation of scripture, there is only God’s Truth. Do I believe my Father has given me some of His Truth? I do, I confess. As I live the WAY of God these last 46 years He has proven to me His Way.
I will explain one of the ways He has proven He exist and Loves me and wants me to Know His Truth. It is written that Paul mailed scraps of cloth he anointed with oil to folks that wanted God to heal them. That my family had done for 46 years, my wife and children time after time have been healed. My wife had a very bad bladder infection for years, the doctors could never cure it, it is gone and has never returned.
The WAY I follow Jesus Christ is unknown to 99.9% of those on BIN or the world as well.
I will speak and write of the TRUTH of God as long as I have breath.
AM 123
do me a favor, I was going over something I had written in an earlier paper on what was nailed to the stake.
Please take the time and read it carefully.
14 “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; “ KJV
14 “Having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.” NIV
14 “He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.” NLT
Blotting out: #1813, Esaleipho; To smear out i.e. obliterate (erase tears, fig. pardon sin) blot or wipe away. The word blotting is use only one time in the entire Bible.
Handwriting: #5498, Cheiragogos; something handwritten, a legal document or bond. This word handwriting is used only one time in the entirety of the Bible.
Ordinances: #1379 Dogmatizo; to prescribe by statute, i.e. (reflex,) to submit to certain rule – be subject to ordinances. #1379 is used twice in Colossians 2 only.
Against: #2596, Kata; def. is too long to include. Basic definition, Against or opposition.
Contrary: #5227 Hupenantios, an opponent; adversary.
I will venture my opinion here, when Isaiah wrote; “That they might go and fall backward and be broken and snared and taken”, this scripture fits what Isaiah wrote perfectly. After my comments on verse 14 are written, few will agree as the Law is truly hated. Of a truth; if God the Father does not open ones mind to understand His overall Plan scriptures like the above will confuse and be a constant source of contention and even actual fighting until Christ returns.
Understanding that the two words ‘blotting out (Esaleipho)’ ; and ‘handwriting (Cheiragogos)’ are each used only once in the entirety of the Bible and Ordinances (dogmatizo) used twice and further seeing the definition of blotting out can figuratively mean: ‘pardon sin’ and combining with many other scriptures explaining how the sacrifice of Christ removes our sins and not the Law; the closest and most accurate translation is the NIV.
If Paul was trying to say ‘Christ nailed the law to the stake’, why use all those words? Why use a bunch of strange words, why not just say “He took the Law away nailing it to His stake??? Because Paul was not struggling to say – the Law was taken away he knew better.
Using the additional definitions of the key words verse 14 says:
– ‘Wiping away’ the ‘legal documents’ prescribed by ‘certain rules’ containing the verdict of death and condemning us to death, He took them with Him to be nailed to the stake with Him’.
Our written sentence of dead was nailed to the stake IN or with Christ.
Claiming the two words ’ handwriting’ and ’ordinances’ describe and refer to the Holy Law of God is without foundation, without conformation of any kind what so ever and is a completely baseless assertion i.e. a lie.
Blotting out can mean pardon sin or wipe away, Handwriting means a ‘legal document’ not a complete set of Laws; in this case it is a legal document containing the verdict of death. Ordinances comes not even close to meaning the Commandments, it means; be subject to certain rule, be subject to law.
Thus —- My personal sin was nailed to the stake with Christ. My legal document condemning me to death is PAID IN FULL.
I don’t personally have a problem with what you’re saying here. I do believe the law is still in effect, but my sin was taken away at the cross. But again, I don’t believe we’re under the law any more, but under grace.
am123
Can’t you make the connect you are no longer “under” the condemnation of the Law, your debt for sin has been paid. You no longer live “under” the penalty of death, your sentence of death has been removed by the Blood of Christ. The Law was not removed only your sin.
The only way to fall under the penalty of death once a person has had their debt paid is to willfully sin against God the Father, they must on purpose begin to transgress the Law and if I can make the point this way; rub the transgression in God’s face.
Am123 you are almost there!
Yeah, I pretty much agree.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
—Hebrews 10:267-29
am123
Now you understand, it is all in the Word of God but it is truly scattered here and there.
The Law is HOLY, God does not pitch in the garbage that which is Holy.
Now I will make one other statement, you did not understand this because of my writings or by your brain, God reveals His Truth to whom He will.