It Sure Looks Flat ..... But It's Not !
The Way This Guy Proves Earth Is Not Flat
Is Brilliant
(Note :The tag along video player and/or randomly inserted ad blocks are not part of this article. They are aggravating and a hindrance to the continuity of the article. I apologize for the aggravation. I have no control over their placement in the body of this article.)
From: https://www.boredpanda.com/lake-michigan-curvature-flat-earth-gregpagel/
By Giedrė
We all were there when Elon Musk was asking ‘The Flat Earth Society” the important questions, poking at the reasoning behind the theory that Earth is, in fact, a flat disc. While flat-earthers seem to lack substantial arguments in the debate and it seems quite obvious what the answer to the age-old question is, imgur user GregPagel’s views were challenged after he snapped a photo of Lake Michigan.
After examining the photos, Greg, a 47-year-old musician from Manitowoc, realized that the horizon he captured seemed quite flat, instantly raising doubts about everything he knew about Earth. “I’ve often looked at the horizon over that lake–thousands of times–and wondered “am I seeing a curve? I’m not sure. Maybe a little? Or is my mind playing tricks?” As a kid, I’d look at it a lot” Greg told Bored Panda. So, he did what any other person would do, he used science! “When I actually did the math and made the diagram, I actually felt a rush” Pagel recalled. Using Google Earth and some calculations he was able to figure it all out and share the surprising results with the world. Scroll down to see what he found out yourself!
Yesterday, imgur user Greg took some pictures in Manitowoc, Wisconsin
He snapped some beautiful panorama shots of Lake Michigan
However, he quickly noticed that something odd about the photographs
The horizon seemed pretty… flat
So Greg did what any other person would do and used science to figure it all out
From using Google Earth to graphs, the man dove head-first into the challenge
“The fun part was showing a .12 degree arc on a circle. It’s almost nothing!” – Greg told Bored Panda
And here’s your answer! 0.12 curve is barely noticeable, but it’s still a curve!
Show me water sticking to the bottom of a
spinning ball… Sure, No problem
Comment from: dazzathecameraman 1 day ago ………………
“Hmmmm…. 5 full rotations in 25 seconds… that’s 12 revolutions per minute, 720 revolutions per hour, 17,280 revolutions per day. The Earth makes only 1 revolution per day, so your globe is “spinning” at 17,280 times faster than the Earth. 
”
Flat Earth Insanity
https://flatearthinsanity.blogspot.com/2017/06/soundly-shows-flat-earthers-curve.html
[ This blog is for nonprofit, educational purposes - media is incorporated for educational purposes as outlined in § 107 of the U.S. Copyright Act.]
Soundly Shows Flat Earthers The Curve
In a rather devastating series of videos and high-resolution photographs Soundly has shown the best evidence for the curvature over the horizon I’ve seen [Soundly's Google Drive] – thanks to a very long line of equal height towers that stretch over a portion of Lake Pontchartrain. His first Video includes extended details about exactly where the images were taken.
Observation Height: about 40′ above water on the bridge
North Side: Approximate Location: 30° 4’42.40″N, 90°24’20.98″W
South Side: Approximate Location: 30° 4’38.71″N, 90°24’12.66″W
Tall Background Tower (210′ – ORS# 22-001038): 30°17’37.59″N, 90°18’38.64″W
IMG_4118 is my personal favorite of the images, which I color balanced and notated – including the perspective lines for the towers.
Where those lines converge is where the horizon would be IF Earth was flat. That is how the “Vanishing Point” for parallel lines works. The fact that the horizon is BELOW that point and the fact that the towers clearly fall below these lines shows you the water surface is curved.
| Image Credit: Soundly IMG_4118 |
He has many other images as well — from the other side of the towers and at night also. My versions are LOWER resolution than the originals — click on the Image Credit link to get the full resolution image.
| Image Credit: Soundly IMG_4034 |
| Image Credit: Soundly IMG_4037 |
| Image Credit: Soundly IMG_4040 |
| Image Credit: Soundly IMG_4043 |
| Image Credit: Soundly IMG_4049 |
| Image Credit: Soundly IMG_5038 |
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – AGREEMENT WITH MODEL IS NOT PROOF. This is very good evidence but it COULD BE wrong for some reason. That’s completely fair.
Calling these images “fakes” or dismissing them out of hand however is not genuine scientific inquiry. Soundly has video, numerous images, and a LIVE STREAM of this area.
There are some videos that fail to show this curve but they are low resolution and blurry and do not refute the authenticity of these images. I addressed one of them here on my blog.
Curved Tower Line?
So “Zach” made a video which alleged that this “apparent” curvature was due to the towers not being in a straight-line — of course he very pointedly analyzed the WRONG line of towers which renders his analysis completely moot but I wanted to address this idea that the towers being out of line could cause this view.
So I made a SketchUp model [ Download Sketchup Model ] where I curved the line of towers
The first ~100 towers are in a straight-line, and the rest bow out according to a slight curvature – which is very clear from this angle.
Now let’s look down both sides of the towers, first from the side where the towers curve out. No matter where you cut this we do not see the characteristic downward curve we see in Soundly’s images.
And from the other side the towers are so dense you cannot see past them so you just see a truncated line of towers.
Since Soundly has images from BOTH SIDES showing the same downward curve this is very good evidence that it’s an actual downward curve and NOT an artifact of the towers being out of line.
Refraction
Perhaps refraction could be responsible for this effect?
Well, ok — but normally refraction RAISES more distant objects up and allows us to see very slightly over the horizon that would exist if there was no atmosphere — this is because light tends to bend towards the more dense air at lower altitudes. It is POSSIBLE for refraction to reverse direction but since we see evidence of inferior mirages forming right above the horizon in Soundly’s image.
For now, these stand as excellent examples of Earth’s Curvature.
Resources
- Perspective Explained for Flat Earthers
- ➠➠➠ Walter Bislin: Rendering Flat vs Globe
- ➠➠➠ Walter Bislin: Centrifugal calculator
- ➠➠➠ Soundly Shows Flat Earth the Curve
- (G+) Flat Earth Follies
- Sun Angles on Flat Earth
- ⚠ Catalog of Flat Earth Claims & Refutations
- �� FEI Horizon Calculator
- Height Obscured by Curvature
- On High-Altitude Images
- On Gravity Measurement
- On Centrifugal Force
- On Crepuscular Rays
- On View of Chicago
- Simple Proof for Convexity of Earth
- ⛺ Ellipsoid Earth Radius Calc
- ⛺ Angular Size Calculator
- ⛺ Great Circle Calculator
- ⛺ Sun Rise/Set
- ⛺ ATY – MIrages
Lake Pontchartrain Power Transmission
Lines: Evidence of Earth’s Curvature
https://flatearth.ws/pontchartrain
Lake Pontchartrain is a lake in Louisiana, United States. There are power transmission lines about 24.27 km (15 mi) across this lake. They are practically straight and each tower is uniform and has the same height, making these towers ideal for observing the curvature of the Earth.
They are first popularized by Soundly who presented evidence of Earth’s curvature using a series of photos and videos of the power lines in June 2017. As of now, the towers and other objects on the lake are probably the most popular Earth curvature tourism spot in the world.
The pictures and videos themselves don’t require explanation as they clearly show the curvature. But here we add perspective lines to emphasize the curvature. If the Earth is really flat, then the vanishing point should intersect the horizon line. But they are clearly above the horizon line. This shows us the dip of the horizon and proves the curvature of the Earth.
Table of Contents
- “But, The Towers Are Not Straight!”
- “But, The Pictures are Fake!”
- “The Towers Are Too Close to Each Other!”
- “But There’s No Apparent Horizontal Curvature!”
- “The Picture Doesn’t Show The Correct Amount of Curvature!”
- “There is a video showing the same scene, but the curvature is not there!”
- “There’s a scene showing a hot, flat road showing mirrored images above it!”
- Reference
“But, The Towers Are Not Straight!”
There are some objections within the community of flat-Earth victims. Some say the towers are not straight.
- An unscrupulous flat-Earther on YouTube did a so-called ‘analysis’ on a different set of towers, which are not straight and cover a lot less distance. Unfortunately, he never took down his erroneous video and his YouTube video is still actively misleading innocent viewers to this day.
- Soundly did observations from both sides. If they are not straight, it will be very apparent from the pictures. But in reality, the pictures show the same curvature.
- The fact that the towers are in straight lines can be verified using Google Earth.
“But, The Pictures are Fake!”
Anyone can do a Google search using the keywords “lake pontchartrain power lines”, and it is easy to see similar pictures taken by different people, over different time.
We took the picture from Soundly’s collection (Google Drive). We are using the picture IMG_4118.JPG. He also provides its RAW file in Canon CR2 format: IMG_4118.CR2.
There is no off the shelf software who can output a CR2 file. If someone wants to fake a CR2 file, he needs to create his own software. It is going to be a massive undertaking to fake this picture.
Soundly himself expected resistance from some unscrupulous third party who will accuse him of doing bad things. To anticipate this, he did everything live on YouTube, from taking the pictures to uploading them to the Internet.
In the end, the information is verifiable and falsifiable. Anyone is free to visit the place and verify the facts themselves.
“The Towers Are Too Close to Each Other!”
The towers are too close to each other? That’s the telephoto compression effect. The longer the focal length of the lens, the closer the objects appear to each other. And they will also appear to be more similar in size.
Soundly took the picture using a Canon 75-300mm lens on a Canon 1300D camera. He used 300mm focal length. His camera has crop factor of 1.6×. And thus, the lens is equivalent to 480mm lens on a 35mm camera. Using these variables, it can be calculated that the horizontal field of view is about 4.3°. As a comparison, our eyes have a horizontal field of view of about 55°.
The following is a demonstration of the telephoto compression effect. As the focal length becomes longer, the objects appear more similar in size, and look more closely together. The mugs here are in the same size and are not moved during picture-taking.
In reality, the distance between towers is about 287 m (314 yd).
“But There’s No Apparent Horizontal Curvature!”
If we can observe the curvature, why can’t we see the curvature horizontally? To get an answer to that question, let’s first calculate the horizontal distance in the picture.
According to EXIF metadata, Soundly used the 75-300mm lens on a Canon 1300D camera body. He took the picture using 300mm focal length. The camera body has 1.6× crop factor. From these values we can calculate the horizontal field of view is about 4.3°.
Assuming the distance to the horizon is 20 km (the distance to the last tower is more than 24 km), then we can calculate the horizontal distance in the photo = 20 km × sin 4.3° = ±1.5 km.
Soundly’s picture has an aspect ratio of 3:2. After cropped 1:1, then the horizontal distance in the picture is only about 1 km (0.62 mi). Obviously, it is not realistic to observe curvature on such small distance.
“The Picture Doesn’t Show The Correct Amount of Curvature!”
We can verify this by using the Transmission Line demonstration of Walter Bislin’s Curvature App. The application simulates the curvature of the Earth using the real size of the Earth, and at the same time compares it to the hypothetical flat model.
We can observe the result of the simulation matches perfectly with all the pictures and video published by Soundly.
“There is a video showing the same scene, but the curvature is not there!”
Atmospheric refraction can cause a distant object that is physically already behind the curvature to be still visible. This happens because the air closer to the surface has higher pressure than above it, causing the path of light to curve along Earth’s curvature, up to a point.
The amount of refraction depends on the weather. In an extreme case, refraction can be severe, and it certainly can make it look as if the transmission pylons is straight.
There’s a video demonstrating this phenomenon, and it is being actively used by flat-Earthers as ‘proof’ there’s no curvature. We can clearly see the shimmering effect in the video, indicating the weather is not as clear as the pictures and videos provided by Soundly. If the maker of the video attempts to record the same scene at the different days and time of the day, he would get something similar to Soundly’s rather easily. He might even have done that, but maybe he prefers only ones that support his assertion.
The lack of apparent curvature in such video can be accommodated in the spherical Earth model. But not the other way around. The appearance of curvature can never be explained in the flat Earth model.
The result of simulation using normal refraction:
The result of simulation using severe refraction:
As we can see, the result of the scene can be easily accommodated in the spherical Earth model.
“There’s a scene showing a hot, flat road showing mirrored images above it!”
The phenomenon is called heat haze, or mirage; an appearance of an inferior mirage. The pressure variation between the hot air at the surface of the road and the denser cool air above it creates a refractive gradient. Light from objects above the road is refracted, making objects above the road to appear on the road.
The result of heat haze shown in the video has no resemblance to the scene taken by Soundly.
Reference
- Soundly’s pictures. Google Drive Link.
- Curved Water Found – Lake Pontchartrain – Electrical Transmission Pylons – (Debunk Flat Earth) – Soundly
- Soundly Shows Flat Earthers The Curve – Flat Earth Insanity
- Flat Earth: Dr Zack can’t Pontchartrain – Sly Sparkane
- Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain – Metabunk
- Curvature App: Transmission Line – Walter Bislin
CategoriesCurvature, Perspective, Photography, Water Tagscurvature, perspective, pontchartrain, water
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Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake
Pontchartrain
https://www.metabunk.org/soundly-proving-the-curvature-of-the-earth-at-lake-pontchartrain.t8939/
Discussion in ‘Flat Earth‘ started by Mick West, Jul 22, 2017.
Page 1 of 3
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
A classic experiment to demonstrate the curvature of a body of water is to place markers (like flags) a fixed distance above the water in a straight line, and then view them along that line in a telescope. If the water surface is flat then the markers will appear also in a straight line. If the surface of the water is curved (as it is here on Earth) then the markers in the middle will appear higher than the markers at the ends. Here’s a highly exaggerated diagram of the effect by Alfred Russel Wallace in 1870:
This is a difficult experiment to do as you need a few miles for the curvature to be apparent. You also need the markers to be quite high above the surface of the water, as temperature differences between the water and the air tend to create significant refraction effects close to the water.
However Youtuber Soundly has found a spot where there’s a very long line of markers permanently fixed at constant heights above the water line, clearly demonstrating the curve. It’s a line of power transmission towers at Lake Pontchartrain, near New Orleans, Louisiana.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kADO7nkt-rk
The line of power lines is straight, and they are all the same size, and the same height above the water. They are also very tall, and form a straight line nearly 16 miles long. Far better than any experiment one could set up on a canal or a lake. You just need to get into a position where you can see along the line of towers, and then use a powerful zoom lense to look along the line to make any curve apparent
One can see quite clearly in the video and photos that there’s a curve. Soundly has gone to great lengths to provide multiple videos and photos of the curve from multiple perspectives. They all show the same thing: a curve.
One objection you might make is that the towers could be curving to the right. However the same curve is apparent from both sides, so it can only be curving over the horizon.
Case closed? You would think so. But some raised the possibility that the images are faked – they are taken from a freeway, so require a little effort to duplicate. Soundly then went to incredible lengths to demonstrate they are not fake. Ultimately he did a live stream of himself taking the video, then driving to a cafe where he uploaded it to Youtube.
Here’s the live stream:Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u61oOOjwm7Q
Here’s the video he uploaded:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJQ4SMR2_aw
The power lines are a dramatic example, but the view from the freeway is a bit dangerous, so here’s a much safer location a few miles away, the Little Tensa Bayou under the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYGnCSMW4Fo
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3995162,-91.5119206,413m/data=!3m1!1e3
There are many other videos on Soundly’s channel, including a new series on the Pontchartrain causeway and other locations. If anyone asks “where the curve”, then you can answer: here.
UPDATE: Two more videos from the Little Tensa Bayou from @James Mercer demonstrate the same thing
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1HgJsfX094
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKYpMl0gJGE
Last edited: Dec 21, 2017- Winner x 10
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
People have asked why the curve is so apparent in one direction, but not in the other. The answer is compressed perspective. Here’s a physical example:
That’s my car, the roof of which is slightly curved both front to back and left to right. I’ve put some equal sized chess pawns on it in two straight lines. If we step back a bit and zoom in we get:
Notice a very distinct curve from the white pieces, but the “horizon” seems to barely curve at all.
Similarly in the front-back direction, where there’s an even greater curve:
If the pieces were actually level, placed on a similar length line:
Then straight lines would remain straight, and it would look like this, even with extreme perspective compression.
Last edited: Jul 24, 2017- Like x 3
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
Could the curve of the towers be an actual curve to the right? No. Soundly shows it curves correctly from both sides, and looks straight when viewed directly along it.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itl0TXdMiUs
View from East:
View straight:
View from west:
Like this:
Source: https://giphy.com/gifs/3oeHLDJK65FFNWRe0M/html5
Last edited: Jul 24, 2017- Like x 3
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
Another physical example of compressed perspective that many people will be familiar with is looking along a pool cue to see if it is straight.
Pool cues are manufactured straight (in theory), but over time they sometimes develop slight bends – especially those that are subject to years of use, like in pubs and bars. This can occur for a few reasons, but is often just warping of the wood in cheap cues. So people often look along the cue, utilizing perspective compression to check.
Image source: http://www.wikihow.com/Choose-a-Pool-Cue
This looks like a nice straight pool cue:
And if we look straight along it from above then it still looks straight – just like the towers on Pontchartrain are in a straight line.
But looking from the side, we can see there’s actually a curve
This is a physical downward curve in the cue. The tip of the cue is wedged under the block, and there’s a small support about a foot from the tip. The weight of the handle end of the cue is making it bend downward. It’s not a lot though (like the very slight curve of the earth) so you can only see it from this perspective.
The same downwards curve is apparent from both sides:
Source: https://giphy.com/gifs/xUPGGwh5tCfNycR5Xa/html5
This effect is magnified if we move the camera back a long way and then zoom in at a shallow angle. This is important, as it posible to get similar looking shots of things like pylons with very different zoom settings (technically it’s the distance to the camera that create the effect, but you need to zoom in to see it). At lower zoom the curve is concentrated more in the distance, and so is harder to see. At higher zooms the curve is much more evenly spread over the whole image.
And again we see the same “up and over” curve from both sides.
Yet viewed along its length from that distance, the cue appears straight.
This proves, like with the Pontchartrain towers, the only curve is vertical.
Last edited: Aug 11, 2017- Like x 3
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Teertskcab New Member
What explains the apparent lack of curvature in this video then?
Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d3_umFGu_gc&feature=youtu.be
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
Teertskcab said: ↑What explains the apparent lack of curvature in this video then?
Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d3_umFGu_gc&feature=youtu.beLack of zoom, a bad camera position, very poor quality image from low resolution and atmospheric distortion.
Even then there’s still a bit of a curve.
Last edited: Jul 24, 2017- Agree x 2
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
Here’s another video under better conditions from a Flat Earth believer. Unfortunately he did not focus well, nor zoom in very far.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k5PtjcLeVw
But the curve is still there:
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Bas Koning New Member
I made a video where I compare both flat earth and sphere earth model to Soundlys observations:
It all boils down to this:
Source: https://youtu.be/ojMctpxCon8
Anyone can inspect the model, it was written in unity by Cara Diann:
Github repository for the Unity project:
https://github.com/Cooke042/Unity-Earth-Models/tree/master/Assets/ModelsGet Unity here:
https://unity3d.com/Last edited by a moderator: Jul 24, 2017 -
Markinglés New Member
I labelled the pylons on google maps on my phone so I could zoom out and see if they were a straight line. They are
Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2017 -
Mino Re New Member
Cara models the earth and recreates the transmission lines as estimated or investigated in terms of height and distances between in order to compare it to Soundly’s footage.
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
The spot from which these photos was taken is on Interstate 10, and is not really a safe (or even legal) place to stop. I’d recommend photos or video be taken by a passenger while the driver concentrates on driving.
It’s on Google Maps as “Flatearth’s End”, with generally positive reviews:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/F…02ca5e!8m2!3d30.0773015!4d-90.4033627!9m1!1b1It would seem like you could also get good photos from Prescott Road, or the shoreline over the railroad. Probably also dangerous/illegal.
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Radapox New Member
Mick West said: ↑Lack of zoom, a bad camera position, very poor quality image from low resolution and atmospheric distortion.Even then there’s still a bit of a curve.
I was wondering, could atmospheric refraction also be at play, “raising” the horizon a little, making the line appear straighter than it really is? Or is that impossible at such close range?
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
Radapox said: ↑I was wondering, could atmospheric refraction also be at play, “raising” the horizon a little, making the line appear straighter than it really is? Or is that impossible at such close range?There’s some refraction going on, but I think there’s more of an issue with the general haze and distortion.
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carlallenuk New Member
Hi mick,
first time poster here, im on the search for evidence of the globe vs the flat earth. ive mostly found nothing to support a flat earth and always keen to see the globe evidence. This post was great until the pool cue bit. Thats what im posting about before posting it on. are the pics yours? is the cue curved? can you show a pic of it curving the other way? and then zoom in? just to show that its definately not the camera causing the curve in the cue? much appreciated for any reply,
Carl. -
Spectrar Ghost Senior Member
It’s definitely curved. He’s got the tip weighted by a cinder block, the center on a dowel, and has the handle hanging free.
Thats no way to treat a cue, BTW. Makes me cringe.
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
carlallenuk said: ↑Hi mick,
first time poster here, im on the search for evidence of the globe vs the flat earth. ive mostly found nothing to support a flat earth and always keen to see the globe evidence. This post was great until the pool cue bit. Thats what im posting about before posting it on. are the pics yours? is the cue curved? can you show a pic of it curving the other way? and then zoom in? just to show that its definately not the camera causing the curve in the cue? much appreciated for any reply,
Carl.This is a physical downward curve in the cue. The tip of the cue is wedged under the block, and there’s a small support about a foot from the tip. The weight of the handle end of the cue is making it bend downward. It’s not a lot though (like the very slight curve of the earth) so you can only see it from this perspective.
The pics are mine (it’s an old junk cue I had in the garage, you can get them at a thrift store for $1). I’m not sure what you mean by “curving the other way” – sideways?
Try this experiment: Pick up an envelope, notice the edge is straight. Then hold it up to your eye and look along the length of the edge of the envelope, and you will notice it is not.
Compressing the perspective does not create a curve – it just magnifies an existing curve.
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carlallenuk New Member
i see what your saying i was hoping the cue could be rotated 180 degrees and be pointing up. i can see now by the way you created the curve this is not possible. im trying to preempt the nay sayers. thanks for your quick reply guys.
Carl.
p.s. maybe you could do the same pictures with a straight metal bar and a slightly curved one to show the camera dose not create the curve?Last edited: Jul 25, 2017 -
Mick West Administrator Staff Member
carlallenuk said: ↑p.s. maybe you could do the same pictures with a straight metal bar and a slightly curved one to show the camera dose not create the curve?Good idea! I’ll just finish my breakfast. But before that check the lack of curve created here:
Mick West said: ↑Then straight lines would remain straight, and it would look like this, even with extreme perspective compression. -
carlallenuk New Member
hahaha im sorry to cause you more work you already do so much and its very much appreciated, that pic is definately proving that that camera dosent cause a curve sorry to be a pain.
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
I like fun little experiments and science demonstrations.
Here’s a level (with a known straight edge), and on top of that there’s a 1/8″ steel bar, balanced on two spacers near the middle, meaning it curves down at the ends.
From a distance:
The straight edges are still perfectly straight, but the curves in the bar are much more apparent.
Now the other way, moving the supports so it sags in the middle:
Straight remains straight, curves are magnified. You can’t make a curve out of a straight line with perspective.
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carlallenuk New Member
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
This thread is going somewhat viral on facebook. 17,000 shares and counting.
Update: 31,000 now! The push was getting shared by the Skeptics Guide to the Universe this morning. Hopefully this will direct the right people to Soundly’s videos.
Last edited: Jul 25, 2017- Like x 3
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rabidsamfan New Member
Teertskcab said: ↑What explains the apparent lack of curvature in this video then?Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d3_umFGu_gc&feature=youtu.be
With the horizon at an angle, the camera at a greater distance from the base of the line, and the atmospheric distortion, it is harder to see the curve, but if you take a straight edge (I used a handy envelope from my junk mail) and try lining up the very bottom of the leftmost pylon with the far right pylons when the picture is zoomed in, you’ll find that it’s impossible to do it without having a little bit of lake showing under the middle pylons.
Of course, now I’m curious about whether tilting the camera or moving it away from the line would diminish the curvature effect for the chess pieces demonstration too…
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David Ridlen Member
Mick West said: ↑This thread is going somewhat viral on facebook…Oh yes, this thread should be a definitive goto page for curvature proof. I have been following the frantic scramble of flat-earthers attempting to discredit Soundly’s numerous photo/video proofs of the towers. But his YT channel is scattered to go thru, and not all his videos are clear examples, so I am glad you put this thread up. The transmission line images are the best disproof of flat earth. Debunkers do not always realize [that] it is best to use examples like this that are very simple and visual, with no math or graphics or reference to “authority.” Soundly said he will take more clear photos in fall when there is less haze.
Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2017- Like x 1
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
rabidsamfan said: ↑With the horizon at an angle, the camera at a greater distance from the base of the line, and the atmospheric distortion, it is harder to see the curve, but if you take a straight edge (I used a handy envelope from my junk mail) and try lining up the very bottom of the leftmost pylon with the far right pylons when the picture is zoomed in, you’ll find that it’s impossible to do it without having a little bit of lake showing under the middle pylons.Of course, now I’m curious about whether tilting the camera or moving it away from the line would diminish the curvature effect for the chess pieces demonstration too…
On reflection, I think that a part of the not-much-curve problem in this one example is due to near-horizon refraction actually raising the far towers (and the far shore) up.
The resolution to such problems is to take photos in lots of different atmospheric conditions, as Soundly already has done.
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Jay Period New Member
The Earth’s circumference is roughly 25,000 miles. Standing at sea level, a 6ft tall person would see only 3 miles to the horizon. The tops of many ships would still be visible, but any boat beyond the horizon would not have a visible waterline.
The Lake Pontchartrain Causeway has a 15 foot clearance. Adding the height of an average person’s standing eye level will give a view of 5.6 miles to horizon. Again, the tops of buildings & trees may be seen many miles away, but not the shoreline beyond 5.6 miles.
In order to see one shoreline to another across Lake Pontchartrain, looking down the 24 mile causeway, you’d need to be looking from 365 feet, equivalent to standing on the roof a 35 story building.
So yea, the power lines are built to the Earths curvature, so is the damned bridge you were driving on.
Even my 4 year old daughter realizes you can see further if you climb higher.
Why does this need to be explained? Why do people find this somehow fascinating? Why am I even replying to this?
You are ALL goofs.
(Oh, my calculations were assuming the Earth is a perfect sphere, which it’s not, but the margin of error is inconsequential for such small measurements. The numbers are true.) -
Radapox New Member
Mick West said: ↑On reflection, I think that a part of the not-much-curve problem in this one example is due to near-horizon refraction actually raising the far towers (and the far shore) up.Ah, thanks, that answers my earlier question. I wasn’t sure if atmospheric refraction only perceptibly “raises” objects at a sufficient distance (like celestial bodies), or whether it is already noticeable near the horizon itself.
EDIT: Actually, upon closer inspection of the picture in your OP, some refraction must be at play as well: Near the horizon, the curve appears to flatten, almost to the point of curling upwards (I’ve slightly exaggerated the effect):
Assuming (which I do) that the power line is level with Earth’s surface and the actual downward curve is constant, refraction would seem to be the only conceivable explanation for this effect.
Last edited: Jul 26, 2017- Agree x 1
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Radapox New Member
Jay Period said: ↑Even my 4 year old daughter realizes you can see further if you climb higher. Why does this need to be explained?With people actually believing the Earth is flat, one can’t be too meticulous in explaining what appears blatantly obvious to others…
But the point of this thread is not to express “surprise” at the fact that you can look further if you stand higher – it’s using this fact to help illustrate the curvature of the Earth.
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Amber Robot Member
David Ridlen said: ↑The transmission line images are the best disproof of flat earth.It’s certainly a very good proof of the curvature of the globe earth as seen at the horizon, but I wouldn’t say it’s the best disproof of the flat earth.
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Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member
Mick West said: ↑The line of power lines is straight, and they are all the same size, and the same height above the water. They are also very tall, and form a straight line nearly 16 miles long. Far better than any experiment one could set up on a canal or a lake. You just need to get into a position where you can see along the line of towers, and then use a powerful zoom lense to look along the line to make any curve apparentJust playing devil’s advocate, is there any proof that the towers are all the same height? I could see people trying to claim that they get smaller along the line, creating the impression of a curve. Ideally it would be good to take photos from the other end of the line, too.
That end doesn’t have any handy roads, but Google “Street View” does have pics from a boat there:
Last edited: Jul 27, 2017 -
Astro Active Member
Trailblazer said: ↑Just playing devli’s advocate, is there any proof that the towers are all the same height?I was thinking that we could get someone out on a boat armed with a laser range finder/hypsometer (like this
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAUL76gEIUo
) to measure height of the next tower from a standardized position at the previous tower, but I suppose that given the number of towers you’d run into some degree of inconsistency due to the tides from the start of the run to the end. Maybe you could spot check it, maybe even skip some of the closer ones and focus on those closer to the horizon from the road?
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
Trailblazer said: ↑Just playing devli’s advocate, is there any proof that the towers are all the same height?I think your pic from the other end pretty much demonstrate that. But you can also look at the towers in GE images. They are taken from different angles, but you can still see the base and upper arm spans are the same between towers
The great thing about these observations is that the towers are not going anywhere. It’s a shame the viewpoint is not more accessible, but the observations are still going to be repeated with increasing accuracy, and under even better weather conditions.
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
Astro said: ↑but I suppose that given the number of towers you’d run into some degree of inconsistency due to the tides from the start of the run to the end.Pontchartrain tides are near negligible. 0.4 feet
https://www.windfinder.com/tide/frenier-landing_lake-pontchartrain- Like x 1
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
Mick West said: ↑This thread is going somewhat viral on facebook. 17,000 shares and counting.Update: 31,000 now! The push was getting shared by the Skeptics Guide to the Universe this morning. Hopefully this will direct the right people to Soundly’s videos.
52,000 Facebook shares now, and nearly 300,000 views of this thread. 30,000 views of the first Soundly video I linked to. Extrapolating from the 850 shares, 118K reached from my original FB post, that means it reached about 7 million people on Facebook. I think it’s safe to say that pretty much everyone in the Flat Earth community (a tiny fraction of those 7 million) will have heard of Soundly’s demonstration by now.
So there’s going to be some blowback. Expect more “Soundly Debunked” videos. Again though the beauty of it is that the towers are fixed. Eventually they will have to stop saying “fake”, and either admit that the lake is curved, or try to shoehorn yet another example into the “bendy light”/”perspective” catchcall.
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NobleOne Member
Mick West said: ↑Could the curve of the towers be an actual curve to the right? No. Soundly shows it curves correctly from both sides, and looks straight when viewed directly along it.Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itl0TXdMiUs
View from East:
View straight:
View from west:
Like this:
I disagree here. When looking carefully by aligning the outer columns from both sides it seems to me that towers are curving slightly to the right (east side).
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
NobleOne said: ↑I disagree here. When looking carefully by aligning the outer columns from both sides it seems to me that towers are curving slightly to the right (east side).I agree, there’s a very slight curve to the right. However that does not change the fact that the downwards curve is visible (and seem more or less identical) from both sides. If the visible downward curve were the result of a purely horizontal curve, then from the other side it would be an upward curve.
Since the curve is pretty much the same from both sides, then that means it’s largely the result of vertical curvature – i.e. over the horizon.
Consider this curved line of perfectly level identical chess pieces:
When it curves away from the camera, it looks like it’s going up and over:
But from the other side it looks like it’s going down and up.
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NobleOne Member
Mick West said: ↑I agree, there’s a very slight curve to the right. However that does not change the fact that the downwards curve is visible (and seem more or less identical) from both sides. If the visible downward curve were the result of a purely horizontal curve, then from the other side it would be an upward curve.Since the curve is pretty much the same from both sides, then that means it’s largely the result of vertical curvature – i.e. over the horizon.
Consider this curved line of perfectly level identical chess pieces:
When it curves away from the camera, it looks like it’s going up and over:
But from the other side it looks like it’s going down and up.
Yes, I agree somewhat with you. However, chess pieces can not simulate the distances nor visual effects we have in video, only proof of concept. The only way to be absolutely sure is to having the last tower in view perfectly visible.
But there is one more chance: Big tower in the distance.
If we could find somewhere how this distant tower looks like when in complete view we could scale & compare it and see how much of it is hidden by horizon making it fairly convincing proof of the true shape of planet Earth along with the power lines towers. Two evidences side by side on the same photo.
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Hamster99 New Member
NobleOne said: ↑Yes, I agree somewhat with you. However, chess pieces can not simulate the distances nor visual effects we have in video, only proof of concept. The only way to be absolutely sure is to having the last tower in view perfectly visible.But there is one more chance: Big tower in the distance.
If we could find somewhere how this distant tower looks like when in complete view we could scale & compare it and see how much of it is hidden by horizon making it fairly convincing proof of the true shape of planet Earth along with the power lines towers. Two evidences side by side on the same photo.
The tall tower (GPS: 30°17’37.59″N, 90°18’38.64”W) is listed in FAA Obstacle data under the reference number ORS# 22-001038 which provides the height of the tower at 210ft (above ground level) and 211ft (above mean sea level).
fromSource: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaam8BNLH5s
does that help any ?
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LMR New Member
Hi, I have a simple model of the big tower https://ufile.io/vscje (3ds)
Due to refraction it does not match perfectly with Soundly’s observations, but it is enough.
And we do not know exact height of the observer.
The big tower in google maps
The height of the big tower is 64.3 meters.
https://www.google.ru/maps/@30.2944848,-90.3108496,3a,75y,192.45h,102.75t/data=!3m10!1e1!3m8!1soozC27XRBHiNdi_s3FybEA!2e0!6s//geo1.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid=oozC27XRBHiNdi_s3FybEA&output=thumbnail&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&thumb=2&w=203&h=100&yaw=187.21219&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i38Last edited: Jul 27, 2017- Like x 1
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Mick West Administrator Staff Member
The power lines are a dramatic example, but the view from the freeway is a bit dangerous, so here’s a much safer location a few miles away, the Little Tensa Bayou under/between the Atchafalaya Basin Bridge
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYGnCSMW4Fo
https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3995162,-91.5119206,413m/data=!3m1!1e3
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Whistler Blowers, Insiders
flat earthers care nothing about facts…its a a religion or just a big con game to have some fun..let them have their fun,ain’t hurtin nothing but if they really believe earth is flat is because they have flat brains,retards,so it is hopeless
Sorry about some of the photos not loading up, don’t know what caused that, they all have the same source. Just follow links to original articles to remedy that problem.
I know it’s sometimes a waste of time rebutting these FE clowns, most of them won’t even look at anything that shows that they might be wrong.
Mick West is obsessed with debating and criticizing people who are obviously either full of it or very deranged. Either way one looks at it, Mick West is as troubled as those he claims are lost in so-called “rabbit holes”.
Maybe Mick West should lay off the DMT. get off the computer, stay away from the internet, stop cyber stalking self-proclaimed “truthers”; and maybe, just maybe he might seek some help from a professional psychiatrist. After all, Mick West is the one obsessed with worrying about what a small number of people online claim to think. Maybe he should worry more about his own obvious social media addiction and the effects all the years of his online activity have had on his mental health.