Reincarnation: The Secret Teachings of Jesus
Wednesday, April 23, 2014 16:43
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There are many passages in scripture where Jesus affirms the reality of reincarnation. Here we will examine some of them.
The episode in the Bible where Jesus identified John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet is one of the clearest statements which Jesus made concerning reincarnation.
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“For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come.” (Matthew 11:13-14)
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In the above passage, Jesus clearly identifies John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet. Later in Matthew’s gospel Jesus reiterates it.
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“And the disciples asked him, saying, ‘Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’
“But he answered them and said, ‘Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand.’
“Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist.” (Matthew 17:10-13)
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In very explicit language, Jesus identified John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah. Even the disciples of Jesus understood what Jesus was saying. This identification of John to be the reincarnation of Elijah is very important when it comes to Bible prophecy. By identifying the John with Elijah, Jesus identified himself as the Messiah. The Hebrew scriptures mentions specific signs that would precede the coming of the Messiah. One of them is that Elijah will return first.
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“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” (Malachi 4:5)
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The above Bible verse is one of the major Messianic promises from God that is found in the Bible. And these John is Elijah references clearly demonstrate the reality of reincarnation. So there are two important conclusions we can draw from this:
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1.
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The Old Testament prophesied that Elijah himself – not someone like him or someone in the same ministry as him – but Elijah himself would return before the advent of the Messiah. (Malachi 4:5) |
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Jesus declared John to be Elijah when he stated that Elijah has come. (Matthew 17:10-13)
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Now, based on the passages 1. and 2. alone, either 3. or 4. must be true:
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3.
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John was the reincarnation of Elijah the Prophet; therefore, reincarnation must become once again a part of Judeo-Christian theology. It also means the current concept of resurrection – the “reanimation of corpses on judgment day” – can be discarded and replaced with “the reanimation of spiritually dead LIVING people.” In other words, becoming “born again,” or receiving “eternal life,” or becoming free from the slavery of the birth-death-rebirth cycle. or …
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4.
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John the Baptist was not Elijah himself, meaning that Elijah himself had not returned. But if this is true, then we must conclude the following:
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So based upon the above logic, only one of the following can be true:
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| (1) | Reincarnation is a reality or… |
| (2) | Jesus was not the Messiah or… |
| (3) | Bible prophecies are not reliable. |
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But because Jesus’ declaration of John as Elijah was overt and direct, then the only logical option is option (1) Reincarnation is a reality. Jesus explains in clear language that John is the reincarnation of Elijah:
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“After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus …
“As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
“They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what ‘rising from the dead’ meant.
“And they asked him, ‘Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?’
“Jesus replied, ‘To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things.’
“Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?”
“But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him.” (Mark 9:9-13)
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The passage above describes the disciples seeing the spirit of Elijah and wondering again about Elijah’s role. Jesus again identifies John to be the reincarnation of Elijah.
The description of Jesus shining with light as the sun and clothes as white as the light is remarkably similar to descriptions of Jesus in many near-death accounts. This transfiguration of Jesus event in the Bible is just one of many events in the Bible that corresponds with near-death experiences.
Another point to make is that the appearance of Elijah and Moses in spirit with Jesus refutes the concept of people sleeping in graves until the last day. In other words, it refutes the concept of resurrection.
Skeptics of reincarnation like to quote the following Bible verse in an effort to refute Jesus’ clear teaching of the reincarnation of Elijah as John the Baptist.
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“And he [John the Baptist] will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah.” (Luke 1:17)
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Skeptics claim that the above Bible verse affirms John to be merely a prophet who performed the same ministry as Elijah – not that John was actually the reincarnation of Elijah. But this is not what the verse actually says. In fact, the verse gives a perfect definition of reincarnation: the return of a person’s spirit and power into another body. It is the spirit and power that reincarnates. Therefore this verse clearly states that John the Baptist had the spirit and power of Elijah. And this is exactly what reincarnation means. It does not get much clearer than this.
Although John carried the living spirit of Elijah he did not carry his conscious mind and memory. Reincarnation involves only the higher consciousness of the spirit. Because John did not have the conscious mind and past-life memories of Elijah, John denied being Elijah. With very few exceptions, nobody has a conscious memory of past lives. The following is the Bible passage that shows John denying that he is Elijah.
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“They asked him, ‘Then who are you? Are you Elijah?’
“He said, ‘I am not.’ ‘Are you the Prophet?’ He answered, ‘No.’
“Finally they said, ‘Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?’
“John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, ‘I am the voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.” “Now some Pharisees who had been sent questioned him, ‘Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?’
“I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.” (John 1:21-27)
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Notice that the Pharisees questioning John were expecting the reincarnation of an Old Testament prophet. And John did not refute the concept of reincarnation when he stated his ignorance about having a past life as Elijah. But Jesus was not ignorant about John. Jesus knew better and said so in the plainest words possible:
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“This is the one … there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist … And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear.” (Matthew 11:11-15)
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Jesus revealed John to be Elijah; but John denied it. Which of the two people are right – Jesus or John? The answer should be very clear. John’s denial of his own past identity as Elijah does not mean he did not have a past life as Elijah. This is especially true when Jesus claimed that John was indeed Elijah.
The following is another Bible passage which describes other people who believed John to be Elijah or some other prophet:
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“Now Herod the tetrarch heard about all that was going on. And he was perplexed, because some were saying that John had been raised from the dead, others that Elijah had appeared, and still others that one of the prophets of long ago had come back to life.” (Luke 9:7-8)
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Perhaps it was the appearance of Elijah at the Mount of Transfiguration that led some to believe that John was still alive even after he was killed by Herod. This would also explain the rumor going around then that Elijah was raised from the dead.
Even when we compare the physical description of John with Elijah we find a striking similarity.
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John the Baptist: ”John’s clothes were made of camel’s hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist.” (Matthew 3:4)
Elijah the prophet: “He was a man with a garment of hair and with a leather belt around his waist.” (2 Kings 1:8)
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The similarity between John and Elijah should not be dismissed as a coincidence. Believers of the concept of reincarnation know that personality traits can be passed on from one life to the next – even though conscious memories are not passed along.
Another interesting parallel between John and Elijah has to do with karma. The Bible describes how Elijah had the priests of Baal killed with the sword because their sacrifice failed to catch fire whereas his did. Here are the two Bible verses that describe it:
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“Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.” (1 Kings 18:40)
“Now Ahab told Jezebel everything Elijah had done and how he had killed all the prophets with the sword.” (1 Kings 19:1)
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Having all the priests of Baal beheaded seems like an incredible injustice on Elijah’s part. This may explain why Elijah had to pay the karmic debt for this injustice by reincarnating as John the Baptist and having his own head cut off:
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“Prompted by her mother, she said, “Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.” The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted and had John beheaded in the prison.” (Matt. 14:6-10)
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Because Elijah had people beheaded, the law of “eye for an eye” and “reaping what we sow” demanded that Elijah be beheaded. This is a good example of how those who live by the sword will die by the sword – if not in the same lifetime then in another.
The Bible does not limit the reincarnation of Elijah to John the Baptist either. The Bible suggests that another reincarnation of Elijah will occur around the time of Jesus’ second coming. And not only does Elijah appear again at this time, but Moses is reincarnated as well. In the same way that John and Elijah appeared together on the Mount of Transfiguration so they will appear together at Jesus’ return. Here is the Bible passage:
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“And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the Earth. If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.
“This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
“These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the Earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. (Revelation 11:3-6)
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While this verse does not specifically identify these two witnesses as Elijah and Moses, the miraculous powers they perform suggest it is them. Just like the two witnesses in the Book of Revelation, Elijah had the power to prevent rain from occurring (1 Kings 17:1; Jam. 5:17) and Moses is shown having the power to turn water into blood and to bring plagues (Exod. 7-12). The Bible passage in Revelation describes two prophets who have these identical powers as Elijah and Moses. Is this a mere coincidence? You be the judge. But if Elijah and Moses are to appear again at the second coming of Jesus then the only realistic way for this to occur is through reincarnation.
With the appearance of Elijah and Moses at the first coming of Jesus, it is not a stretch to believe that Elijah and Moses will appear again at the second coming of Jesus. Also, the Malachi prophecy may actually be a reference to both of these incarnations of Elijah.
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“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” (Malachi. 4:5)
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There are two comings of Jesus to the world and it would be logical to assume that God will send Elijah at the second coming as he did at the first coming.
During his first coming, the Bible records people wondering if Jesus was the resurrection of John the Baptist or a reincarnation of Elijah or some Old Testament prophet. Here is the verse:
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“When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
“They replied, ‘Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.’” (Matthew 16:13-14)
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First of all, in the above Bible passage Jesus actually asks his disciples the identity of the person he was in a past life. Notice that the disciples knew exactly what Jesus was talking about and their answer to Jesus referred to people who died a very long time ago. Notice also that there is no Bible passage that shows Jesus refuting the concept of reincarnation whenever the concept is brought up. Instead Jesus teaches reincarnation.
The next Bible passage shows Jesus telling his disciples that they don’t know the spirit they possess. This is an important statement coming from the lips of Christ concerning one particular fact concerning reincarnation. People did not have a conscious awareness of the spirit they possess from a past life. Because of this people do not know who their spirit previously incarnated. The following passage demonstrates this:
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“And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, ‘Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?’
“But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, ‘Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.’
“And they went to another village.” (Luke 9:54-56, KJV)
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The above passage shows the disciples asking Jesus if they should call down fire upon a city just as Elijah did. Jesus responded by telling them that they don’t know what spirit they have to be able to accomplish this. The spirit of Elijah can call down fire but this does not mean the disciples can.
Note: In the original text, the phrase “manner of” was not part of the above Bible verse nor in the Vulgate version. The phrase “manner of” was added at the time that the Bible was being translated into English. Without the words “manner of” in the verse it would be even more a clear reference to reincarnation. It would show Jesus telling his disciples that they “don’t know what spirit they are of.” However, in modern translations of the Bible this mistranslation is corrected.
Source: http://www.ascensionearth2012.org/2014/04/reincarnation-secret-teachings-of-jesus.html
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you forgot one other option that Elijah has not come yet….
If you look at the book of John 3. It gives a very compeling arguement in favor of reincarnation. If we follow Jesus then we dont have to come back to this crappy world full of hate greed, selfishness. Walk in love, and you will ascend. It has nothing to do with going to the local churches. He did not come here to promote people and building funds, and following teachings that are not rooted in love.
you got that right!
Oh my gosh!
See what happens when you deny the authoritative interpretation of the Catholic Church? You get a bunch of random idiots twisting the Bible into unrecognizable shapes.
It is quite OBVIOUS from even a rudimentary examination of Scripture that man is appointed to die ONCE and be judged for ETERNITY to Heaven or Hell. No second chances, no reincarnations. Reincarnation is an oriental, pagan concept and has no place in Christian thought.
This is why Jesus gave the Church the authority to interpret Scripture. To protect His written Word from error and desecration at the hands of “the ignorant and unstable” as mentioned in 2 Peter 3:16.
‘s historical fact that the church did away with all of the scriptures that taught this because it did not fit in with their control methods. Oh, and they made sure to get rid of the Gnostic’s as well so they would stop writing about it, too.
This is real truth!
I would like to suggest to read this FREE book:
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/PDF/ChristRein2.pdf
and also:
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/HapaxE.htm
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/NikoENG.htm
and several other texts here:
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/texts.htm
compare:
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/HistChrist.htm
There Servus Mariae will find some undesired proof…
What about the verse that says man is “appointed once to die”. That clearly states no chance of reincarnation. And you are sadly mistaken if you think modern versions correct other translations. The KJV is the authorized version and the italicized words are placed there by GOD. It can be proven without a doubt. All versions (other than the KJV are perversions and should not be taken as God’s inspired word. They do not preach the inspired word of God.
If you had read:
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/HapaxE.htm
you would know the answer…
One more thing:
you write about TRANSLATIONS… who has authorized them?
I am writing about ORIGINAL texts in Hebrew and Greek…
Those who are able to go back to them and see the various alliterative ways many a passage can be translated get a wider view…
It should be “alternative ways” but the spellchecker was confused…
Yes, Elijah has come. But you are all missing the bigger picture. Elijah was a foreshadow of the Comforter (Christ is the Comforter) as was John the Baptist, because;
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Elijah beheaded false prophets with the sword, what is the sword symbolic of?
Rev_2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
The words of God through Christ is the sword.
John the Baptist preached repentance and baptizing of water. The spirit of Elijah will always preach repentance, because otherwise the sword of the Lord will behead our carnal minds.
John said;
Joh 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
)
Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease. (he decreased in height, that’s for sure, about a head shorter
See the parallel?
To the author of this article, no offense but, stop dancing with the spirit of antichrist.
Rev_19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Your teaching says I get a do over if I screw up.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Fear God!
And what do you say to the talk with Nicodemus?
I accept no “god” that you have to FEAR, be AFRAID of! Only a God of LOVE!!
Jesus originally taught us about that, but these teachings were suppressed.
Yet they survived in the Gnostic texts discovered 1945.
Cf. http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/JesMMiss.htm
Who else dances with antichrist? How about those who suppressed the original teachings and those who interpret texts in a political manner that serves interests of control and manipulation of people?
Fear God means to reverence God. Nicodemus feared the people and their opinions. As for Nicodemus not accepting a God he has to reverence, you would have to give me the direct scripture on that.
The antichrist spirit will always lead you to avoid the cross, even if it colors itself as reincaenation. Heb 9:27 says something opposite, do you agree?
RandomHouse-Webster’s definition of fear:
1. a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid.
2. a specific instance of or propensity for such a feeling: an abnormal fear of heights.
3. concern or anxiety; solicitude: a fear for someone’s safety.
4. reverential awe, esp. toward God.
5. that which causes a feeling of being afraid; that of which a person is afraid.
6. to regard with fear; be afraid of.
7. to have reverential awe of.
The most common understanding is that of being afraid.
From where do you get the idea that Nicodemus would not revere God?
Heb 9:27 is thoroughly discussed here:
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/HapaxE.htm
Thus I don’t agree…
The Strong’s definition of fear is;
G5399
reverence. 
φοβέω
phobeō
fob-eh’-o
From G5401; to frighten, that is, (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy to be in awe of, that is, revere: – be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly),
There is more than one definition of fear from the Strong’s. Just keeping it context.
As for Nicodemus, I ran your first and second replies together.
I really do not want to jump back and forth from website to website, so please, if you would like to make a point do it here. I am speaking in regard to the scripture in Hebrew. I am not interested or really able to comb through all that information at that website to find what you are talking about.
I am laid up with a back problem, hard to scan websites
Okay, I found it at the website. I have a question for you;
What does reincarnation have to do with salvation through Christ?
It is also a question of justice.
If someone is punished with ETERNAL condemnation for what he did, maybe, during 30 years of his life, where is the justice?
ETERNAL vs. 30 years contradicts all justice…
Reincarnation is a way of cleaning the soul through a series if lessons that it grows with, until it is clean. It will in the process on itself experience what it once did to others. Is that not much more justice?
The CHRISTIAN concept of reincarnation is discussed here:
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/PDF/ReincGnost.pdf
Sorry about one more link, one more website, but such a discussion has no room here at all…
In a way, yes – but isn’t that much better and more just than eternal condemnation, without a chance to ever get it right?
This has a tendency to become both a long and a one-sided discussion. You do not want to read my links but I should read your quotes, and you – so far – almost only quote from Paul. So I will have to take down some of the contents of the links here to make it easier for you.
I will certainly come back to what you wrote, but let us first establish a basis for the discussion. This is quoted from my link http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/HistChrist.htm (the text is written by me so that I have the right to repost it here).
It is about a CONSPIRACY against Jesus that started in his lirfetime and was the reason why he was killed.
“There were around Jesus two circles: 1) the outer circle of people who listened to him speaking and 2) the inner circle of his disciples and persons close to him. It is obvious from John 16:12 that he did not say things in the outer circle that he doubtlessly said in the inner circle: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.”
Out of the inner circle arouse the Gnostic Christianity that was earlier than the Paulinian Christianity. As is told in the Gnostic text The Gospel of Truth, YHWH became angry because of what Jesus was teaching and had him nailed to a cross. See Yaldabaoth in the Gnostic texts, where it is shown that “Yaldabaoth” is a Gnostic name for YHWH and where it is explained why YHWH in the Gospel of Truth is called “Error”. So why was YHWH angry at him? Because he in the inner circle, according to Pistis Sophia (another Gnostic text), told that YHWH is not the real god, and talked about how we can be saved from YHWH.
YHWH expected that Jesus’ teachings would gradually be forgotten after his death, but the contrary occurred. Jesus’ sacrifice gave more power to them and they were carried on by the Gnostic Christians. Therefore, YHWH, as a strategy, wanted to replace that original Christianity with a new one that serves his purposes and inspired Paul to establish a kind of “Christianity light” that does not have the profound truths of the Gnostic Christianity and lacks what Jesus had taught about YHWH in the inner circle, but instead tells other things YHWH wants the people to believe. See Jesus’ Main Mission.
This way, Christianity gradually became replaced by the Paulinian Christianity. YHWH then manipulated Constantine to reject the Gnostic Christianity at the Council in Nicaea in 325, where the basis for the Church, as it developed from there, became the Paulinian Christianity.
Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, “Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?”
9:5 And he said, “Who art thou, Lord?” And the Lord said, “”I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.”
9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, “Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?” And the Lord said unto him, “Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.”
Did this, really, come from Jesus, or from YHWH pretending to be Jesus? Let us compare with another “inspiration”. It is told that Constantine had a vision (some sources say a dream) in which he saw the cross and heard “In this sign you will be victorious.” Then he had the cross painted on the shields of his soldiers and was victorious in his wars. Did this come from Jesus? Jesus taught us “You shall not kill”, “Love your enemies” and “Who takes to the sword will be undone by the sword”, which is a grave contradiction to the vision of Constantine. Jesus would have told him to make peace and forgive his enemies! Therefore, that vision could not have come from Jesus. Did it come from YHWH, who wanted to have an apparently Christian Church that serves his interests? His interests in manipulating and controlling the people? If that is so, it may also cast some doubts about the vision of Paul…
In the same sense we may question, who it really was, who tempted Jesus in Luc 4:1-13. Was it, maybe, YHWH – trying to bring him off from his mission?
However, the Gnostic Christianity, that – by the way – also knew about reincarnation and taught it (which apparently YHWH for some reason did not like), did not disappear completely. Some Gnostics remained in the Balkans, more or less where Bulgaria is to day, and later moved to Southern France, where the Cathar community formed. The Cathars (the “pure ones”) followed Jesus’ teachings so well that they were vegetarians and never killed an animal – “Thou shalt not kill!” They also knew and taught reincarnation. In the 13th century this community was completely eradicated in a cruel genocide, a veritable holocaust against them, by the people of the Church! An extremely unchristian action! One of the great sins of the Church – besides the Inquisition which cruelly worked in a way YHWH will have liked… Cf. About Jesus and Mary Magdalene.
As concerns reincarnation one may assume that this is one of the things Jesus referred to in John 16:12…
The Gnostic Texts were destroyed during the attempts to eradicate the movement. Luckily, a large number of them were discovered in Nag Hammadi in Egypt in 1945, so that we to day again have access to most of this treasure of immensely important information.”
Reincarnation is resurrection in stages of subsequent lessons that will at the end set you free to not reincarnate again. That means that ALL will become free at the end, once the lessons are mastered, the main one being LOVE!!!
Jesus, being a messenger of Christ, showed us a quicker way to that end.
But those who want power over humans did not like that…
We should stay as long as possible under their manipulations.
So, according to this teaching, a person keeps going until they get it right? Yes or no?
Endtime
In a way, yes – but isn’t that much better and more just than eternal condemnation, without a chance to ever get it right?
Better or not, what is the truth? If reincarnation is true; man will always do what man has always done, evil. So, that person has nothing to lose, that person has taught others to hate, who through another’s deeds now have to do it all again. Does not sound logical at all. That would mean I could be punished for your acts that taught me to hate (not that you have).
Granted, it would be nice to believe that I am ok, your ok, we’re all ok…Fact is, just not true. Too many holes in that theology.
These scriptures help me with that.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
I do agree that love is the best way as it mirrors the image of God. However, this teaching says I have to keep going through this hell until “”" I “”" get it right. This is not what the scriptures say.
1Th_5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
Heb_12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
I just see too much assumption in that theology.
You miss that people’s souls will have to improve when they as a lesson (not punishment) experience on their own skin what they did to others. Some object that we do not remember, but we do! In our souls, in our unconscious selves. The soul knows what the mind does not. The soul knows why it is having the lesson. Regrettably, the world is – still – full of perpetrators and the soul will easily find its “teacher”, the undeveloped perpetrator that can give the lesson. YOU will not be punished for HIS acts – big misunderstanding – HE will be “punished” (better: have his lesson) in HIS next incarnation. But your soul has sought him for the lesson it can get through him. Assuming that it is a case of karmic suffering.
This incarnation can for many be a relative hell, but it lasts less than 100 years. Better so than an eternal condemnation, an EVERLASTING hell, that – by the way – is a blasphemous contradiction to the love of the real creator god.
Hw about dosnloading this book for free and readit?
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/PDF/ChristRein2.pdf
Taking off the gloves now. Sir, I do appreciate your zealousness concerning this topic. However, I will argue my case against reincarnation. As for downloading a book, from time to time I do, but not this one. Please, give what I say a chance.
I remember hearing the gospel as a child. Through the years the message has changed. It is so far off today it is nauseating. I remember that gospel well, it convicted me of sin in my life, not that I was a bad kid but still, it made me think. If you would like to communicate privately on the multitudes of false doctrines, I would be more than willing.
Continuing…
I have been on this planet for over fifty years. I have seen evil emerge into this ever present darkness. I have seen demons in the spirit (that was a mind blower). In a vision I was shown the evil in my heart, that too was disturbing. I have seen Christ in dreams and visions and once in a dream that turned into vision as I awoke. I was shown Obama would be president before he was. I have seen the 24 elders. I have been in the church of the firstborn over creation. I have seen many things, including the invasion of the USA by Russia. I was instructed to give a preacher a warning, took me two years to grow the balls to do it, God would not leave me alone on the matter until I did. As a matter of fact His words were “It’s not about you”. The preacher laughed at me. I still am required to pray for the man, not my place to judge.
Anyway…
Never was the main focus EVER reincarnation. No I will say this, if reincarnation is real, I hope to be the reincarnated image of His glory, a manifested in this life son of the most high God. It is the greatest desire I have in my life. However, I am not worthy. Even if I live a million lifetimes, I will still fall short of what he is. And since flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom, it can and will only be by the spirit of God that dwells in any of us and then only by His grace that we come into the excellency of his majesty. But, the more theology (knowledge) I have, the more my flesh is involved.
This theology of reincarnation makes Christ’s death on the cross pointless. If I have to keep learning the lessons that many lived lives has to teach, the cross is made void.
You seem to be a man who wants to know God but only on your conditions. I would like ta ask you a few questions;
1. Could this teaching be wrong?
2. Do you believe that God’s justice surpasses our understanding?
3. Do you believe this next scriptures to be true?
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
If yes, then brother, I have good news for you. Read this;
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Php_4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
I trust God, I reverence God, I fear God (but the fear is not a bad thing). I know the difference between fear of God and terror. I trust Him.
I will come back to your post. But this seems to become a lengthy discussion and there is much to say about it. We first have to establish a basis for it, which is here: http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/HistChrist.htm
I have written this text myself, therefore I am free to quote from it here, since you don’t want to open my links:
” There were around Jesus two circles: 1) the outer circle of people who listened to him speaking and 2) the inner circle of his disciples and persons close to him. It is obvious from John 16:12 that he did not say things in the outer circle that he doubtlessly said in the inner circle: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.”
Out of the inner circle arouse the Gnostic Christianity that was earlier than the Paulinian Christianity. As is told in the Gnostic text The Gospel of Truth, YHWH became angry because of what Jesus was teaching and had him nailed to a cross. See Yaldabaoth in the Gnostic texts, where it is shown that “Yaldabaoth” is a Gnostic name for YHWH and where it is explained why YHWH in the Gospel of Truth is called “Error”. So why was YHWH angry at him? Because he in the inner circle, according to Pistis Sophia (another Gnostic text), told that YHWH is not the real god, and talked about how we can be saved from YHWH.
YHWH expected that Jesus’ teachings would gradually be forgotten after his death, but the contrary occurred. Jesus’ sacrifice gave more power to them and they were carried on by the Gnostic Christians. Therefore, YHWH, as a strategy, wanted to replace that original Christianity with a new one that serves his purposes and inspired Paul to establish a kind of “Christianity light” that does not have the profound truths of the Gnostic Christianity and lacks what Jesus had taught about YHWH in the inner circle, but instead tells other things YHWH wants the people to believe. See Jesus’ Main Mission.
This way, Christianity gradually became replaced by the Paulinian Christianity. YHWH then manipulated Constantine to reject the Gnostic Christianity at the Council in Nicaea in 325, where the basis for the Church, as it developed from there, became the Paulinian Christianity.
Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, “Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?”
9:5 And he said, “Who art thou, Lord?” And the Lord said, “”I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.”
9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, “Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?” And the Lord said unto him, “Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.”
Did this, really, come from Jesus, or from YHWH pretending to be Jesus? Let us compare with another “inspiration”. It is told that Constantine had a vision (some sources say a dream) in which he saw the cross and heard “In this sign you will be victorious.” Then he had the cross painted on the shields of his soldiers and was victorious in his wars. Did this come from Jesus? Jesus taught us “You shall not kill”, “Love your enemies” and “Who takes to the sword will be undone by the sword”, which is a grave contradiction to the vision of Constantine. Jesus would have told him to make peace and forgive his enemies! Therefore, that vision could not have come from Jesus. Did it come from YHWH, who wanted to have an apparently Christian Church that serves his interests? His interests in manipulating and controlling the people? If that is so, it may also cast some doubts about the vision of Paul…
In the same sense we may question, who it really was, who tempted Jesus in Luc 4:1-13. Was it, maybe, YHWH – trying to bring him off from his mission?
However, the Gnostic Christianity, that – by the way – also knew about reincarnation and taught it (which apparently YHWH for some reason did not like), did not disappear completely. Some Gnostics remained in the Balkans, more or less where Bulgaria is to day, and later moved to Southern France, where the Cathar community formed. The Cathars (the “pure ones”) followed Jesus’ teachings so well that they were vegetarians and never killed an animal – “Thou shalt not kill!” They also knew and taught reincarnation. In the 13th century this community was completely eradicated in a cruel genocide, a veritable holocaust against them, by the people of the Church! An extremely unchristian action! One of the great sins of the Church – besides the Inquisition which cruelly worked in a way YHWH will have liked… Cf. About Jesus and Mary Magdalene.
As concerns reincarnation one may assume that this is one of the things Jesus referred to in John 16:12…
The Gnostic Texts were destroyed during the attempts to eradicate the movement. Luckily, a large number of them were discovered in Nag Hammadi in Egypt in 1945, so that we to day again have access to most of this treasure of immensely important information.”
Sorry that my quote from http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/HistChrist.htm here appears double… It took quite some time until it was accepted and showed up, so I thought it would not come and posted it again…
You did not answer my questions. Now that I know you wrote it, I understand why you believe it to be so factual. No offense, too much assumption.
In regard to Paul, he was the first person called to be an apostle after the resurrection of Christ. I find that relevant as he was the last one in, who was of the tribe of Benjamin, and Benjamin being the last brother to come to Joseph in Egypt.
I enjoy studying the scriptures, but I will not bridge gaps with assumption. I will study your writing.
Are you open to criticize?
“As for downloading a book, from time to time I do, but not this one. Please, give what I say a chance.”
But do you give me a chance through refusing a text that could show you things that you apparently do not want to know?
“I have been on this planet for over fifty years. I have seen evil emerge into this ever present darkness. I have seen demons in the spirit (that was a mind blower). In a vision I was shown the evil in my heart, that too was disturbing. I have seen Christ in dreams and visions and once in a dream that turned into vision as I awoke. …”
You are not alone having inspiration. But when others have them, they are assumptions, tight?
“As a matter of fact His words were ‘It’s not about you’.”
Yes, this is not about you, either. And not about me. It is about all of us!
“Never was the main focus EVER reincarnation.”
Not for you, but for millions other…
“However, I am not worthy. Even if I live a million lifetimes, I will still fall short of what he is.”
How do you know you are not worthy? Maybe you don’t need very many lifetimes before you know that you are…
“This theology of reincarnation makes Christ’s death on the cross pointless. If I have to keep learning the lessons that many lived lives has to teach, the cross is made void. ”
Please make a sense out of that… I don’t see any…
You see: It is not about a few being saved, it is about ALL being saved at the end.
Why only quote Paul all the time? As you know, I am skeptical about him. And you now know why. Let us stick to Christ’s messenger Jesus, and what He said!
“I trust God, I reverence God, I fear God (but the fear is not a bad thing). I know the difference between fear of God and terror. I trust Him”
I trust the “Father” Jesus talked about. And the is not YHWH. Why do I say that? I’m afraid that I have to give you another link for the answer. Otherwise the text will here be much too long. It is http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/JesMMiss.htm – and I would really appreciate your reading it so that you can comment to it (also taking the links in there into consideration).
You probably belong to the many who consider the Gnostic Christianity to be false, that as a historical fact was the first Christianity, before Paul. But what if such a judgment is a part of a conspiracy? Why do you think that their texts were secretly saved from destruction to reappear in 1945? Could that be a divine plan? Of the “Father”?
Wow! I don’t seem to be feeling the love.
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
New International Version (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Five questions you are probably afraid to answer.
1. Is my relationship with God your place to judge?
2. Is the reason you tear certain scriptures and their writers down only to facilitate your false teaching?
3. Do you only believe on your terms so you can justify your belief without contest from others? (seems rather arrogant to only use your own writing as an example of proof?
4. Are set on indoctrinating others only to make yourself feel better?
5. Are you not willing to be wrong (if not, you already are)?
7. I follow spirit of God, not yours, Paul’s or any other man’s teaching. Seems your discernment is lacking maturity which is also reflected in this teaching.
Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Bet you don’t have the balls to answer my questions honestly.
You seem to think you know what I believe. So far, you have only attempted to further your agenda all the while trying to tear my trust in God down.
This dialogue is going nowhere. Your theology is void of the spirit. Here is why.
1. According to you I do not need to know anything as my next life will bring the necessary lessons to bring me into enlightenment.
2. YHWH is the devil and not the creator.
3.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
But you say Jesus is Christ’s reincarnation. But since this is Paul’s writing we will pitch that.
I quit. Take care.
OK, stay with Paul.
I stay with Jesus, messenger of Christ.
Have a good incarnation!
Wow! I don’t seem to be feeling the love.
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
New International Version (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Five questions you are probably afraid to answer.
1. Is my relationship with God your place to judge?
2. Is the reason you tear certain scriptures and their writers down only to facilitate your false teaching?
3. Do you only believe on your terms so you can justify your belief without contest from others? (seems rather arrogant to only use your own writing as an example of proof?
4. Are set on indoctrinating others only to make yourself feel better?
5. Are you not willing to be wrong (if not, you already are)?
7. I follow spirit of God, not yours, Paul’s or any other man’s teaching. Seems your discernment is lacking maturity which is also reflected in this teaching.
Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Bet you don’t have the balls to answer my questions honestly.
Joh_3:3-7: I do REQUEST from you to comment to this linguistic analysis of the ORIGINAL TEXT:
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/NikoENG.htm
Sorry about giving a link, but quoting whole texts makes this grow still more out of proportions…
1Pe_1:23: For ALL of us after the last incarnation. Reincarnation is a salvation for ALL and not only of a chosen few.
No hatred! Just free and unindoctrinated thinking plus inspiration.
But I see no direct contradiction against reincarnation in any of your quotes from Paul…
As concerns the teaching in the inner circle that led to the first Christian movement: The Gnostic Christianity, that as a historic fact was before Paul: What about their texts? Why were they destroyed, but luckily saved as by divine will until discovered again in 1945? Why did Constantine silence the Gnostics in the Council of Nicaea in 325? They were present but not allowed to talk and their petitions given unopened to the fire. Why did the Church commit the HIGH SIN of genocide on the Cathars – the last Gnostics?
“1. Is my relationship with God your place to judge?”
It is, of course, your business. I am telling what MY relationship is: with Jesus, Christ and the “Father”, and why. Is it your place to judge that? But you seem to want to judge without wanting to know what my arguments are based on… Can you judge blindly without reading at least a few of my links? Still better at least looking into my free book: http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/PDF/ChristRein2.pdf ?
“2. Is the reason you tear certain scriptures and their writers down only to facilitate your false teaching?”
There are so many other scriptures and to get a wider picture, one has to compare them all. But apparently you don’t want to know about what other scriptures say. Staring yourself blind at Paul without comparing is like going through life with blinkers…
My question: What is your opinion about the Gnostic texts?
“3. Do you only believe on your terms so you can justify your belief without contest from others? (seems rather arrogant to only use your own writing as an example of proof?”
What I wrote IS BASED on comparison of scriptures! A pity that you don’t want to see that…
“4. Are set on indoctrinating others only to make yourself feel better?”
Humanity is badly indoctrinated and Jesus’ mission was to open people’s mind about that. I suppose that you will have to read this link, even if you don’t like it, to get the idea: http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/JesMMiss.htm And: are you not trying to indoctrinate me?
“5. Are you not willing to be wrong (if not, you already are)?”
Like everyone, I have been wrong many times, haven’t you? And then I changed my mind, when did you do that?
“7. I follow spirit of God, not yours, Paul’s or any other man’s teaching. Seems your discernment is lacking maturity which is also reflected in this teaching.”
The Spirit of God IS what Jesus called “Father”, but YHWH’s cruelty is obvious from the OT. He cannot be the Father.
One example: The Hebrews came to the Promised Land and were disappointed. It wasn’t free, people lived there in towns. YHWH told them: NOW KILL EVERYONE HERE, SPARE NOT A CHILD, A WOMAN OR AN OLD MAN, so that you can live in houses you have not built, drink from wells that you did not dig, and eat fruit from trees you did not plant (Deut 6:11). Then a HOLOCAUST broke loose, killing and murdering all through the books of Joshua and Judges and others. Is that a god of LOVE!!! The “Father” would never want that… but an impostor who wanted to take his place did… There is much more of this in the OT, a choice: http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/Atroc.htm
Why are you so hung up on me reading your book? I have read some of it.
Hypothetical question;
A man breaks into your family’s home. He is set on killing your family and you. You have to make a choice. Will you;
A. Let him kill you and your family as a display of love toward him?
B. Kill him as a demonstration of love towards your family?
If your answer is B, you have a major problem. He has 2 more brothers outside, the last of his family members waiting to kill you and your family. Now you have to wipe out his entire family in order for your family to live.
People get hung up on the merciless killing that God had supposedly ordered. I do not see it that way. I see the hidden message being this;
When someone who is converted from death to life through the cross, the old self dies and the man is born again. Which in essence is the resurrection of the dead. Back to the topic, when we kill with the sword (the word of God) we must first die by that same sword.
Rev_13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
When we are a witness to an unbeliever and they are converted, we have killed with the sword of the spirit. The same sword we died by has now killed them.
Mat_10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Certainly this is not a literal sword as Peter took it to be.
See my point?
How about this; Let’s have a conversation about the first day of creation in Genesis, nothing else. Game? Both of us leaving what we think we know behind, okay? To make it even more interesting, let’s only use Genesis and Revelation to prove what we may or may not know to be true or false, up to it?
First I have some questions for you (it is about time since you are asking most questions so far):
1. Do you agree that there were 2 circles around Jesus, an inner (disciples) and an outer (public)?
2. Do you agree that Jesus will have told things in the inner circle that he did not say publicly (cf, (John 16.12)?
3. What do you think happened to His teaching inn the inner circle? A. Lost? B. In the NT? C. Carried on by the Gnostic CHRISTIANS (that were before Paul)?
4. Who did Saul oppose and attack before he was Paul? The Gnostic CHRISTIANS? Why?
5. Why did then the FIRST Christian movement disappear? Conspiracy?
Yes. I would say there were two, if not three different groups of people that Jesus dealt with.
Yes I would say the height of the revelation was different.
I do not believe his teaching was ever lost. I believe he will reveal what he wants, to whom he wants, whenever he chooses. It is his kingdom.
Yes Saul killed Christians, gnostic??? That cannot be answered without making assumptions. Paul is Saul’s born again spirit…
The first movement is still alive and always has been. The kingdom is within you.
How is the first Christian movement still alive and in which form?
Call it what you will, pure and simple it is the true Gospel.
It goes like this.
Joh_3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh_3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (THAT LIVETH AND ABIDETH FOREVER).
Eph_3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout
all ages 
, world without end. Amen. (WHAT CHURCH IS IT THAT PAUL IS TALKING ABOUT?)
Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Who is the firstborn? Christ.
Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
So through Christ we overcome this ever present darkness.
How do we overcome?
Rev_12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev_2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna (spiritual understanding), and will give him a white stone (a new pure heart), and in the stone a new name written( Abram to Abraham/Jacob to Israel/Simon to Peter/Saul to Paul), which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
This is the Gospel that has lived since the foundation of the world, it cannot be stopped by the intellect of man. The Gospel started in the Garden of Eden.
Gen_3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Rom_16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Regardless of your opinion of Paul, you certainly cannot say that he was not given understanding. Besides, if you do not forgive you will have to incarnate again until you get over all the hatred towards him as well as others. Just kiddin’.
Endtime
Joh_3:3-7: I do REQUEST from you to comment to this linguistic analysis of the ORIGINAL TEXT:
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/NikoENG.htm
Sorry about giving a link, but quoting whole texts makes this grow still more out of proportions…
1Pe_1:23: For ALL of us after the last incarnation. Reincarnation is a salvation for ALL and not only of a chosen few.
No hatred! Just free and unindoctrinated thinking plus inspiration.
But I see no direct contradiction against reincarnation in any of your quotes from Paul…
As concerns the teaching in the inner circle that led to the first Christian movement: The Gnostic Christianity, that as a historic fact was before Paul: What about their texts? Why were they destroyed, but luckily saved as by divine will until discovered again in 1945? Why did Constantine silence the Gnostics in the Council of Nicaea in 325? They were present but not allowed to talk and their petitions given unopened to the fire. Why did the Church commit the HIGH SIN of genocide on the Cathars – the last Gnostics?
1Pe_1:23: For ALL of us after the last incarnation. Reincarnation is a salvation for ALL and not only of a chosen few.
“No hatred! Just free and unindoctrinated thinking plus inspiration”. (perhaps you should not think too highly of yourself)
Luk_18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
“But I see no direct contradiction against reincarnation in any of your quotes from Paul”…He’s not all bad…
“As concerns the teaching in the inner circle that led to the first Christian movement: The Gnostic Christianity, that as a historic fact was before Paul: ” (Prove it.)
What about their texts?(source?)
Why were they destroyed, (said who?)
but luckily saved as by divine will until discovered again in 1945?(divine will? by what authority do you speak?)
Why did Constantine silence the Gnostics in the Council of Nicaea in 325? (you have the burden of proof here too)
They were present but not allowed to talk and their petitions given unopened to the fire. (opinion based upon what?)
Why did the Church commit the HIGH SIN of genocide on the Cathars – the last Gnostics? (source ?)
Please reference sources.
Still studying the link…
“‘No hatred! Just free and unindoctrinated thinking plus inspiration’. (perhaps you should not think too highly of yourself)”
Only me???
“‘But I see no direct contradiction against reincarnation in any of your quotes from Paul”…He’s not all bad…”
True, but also not the ultimate truth!
“‘As concerns the teaching in the inner circle that led to the first Christian movement: The Gnostic Christianity, that as a historic fact was before Paul:”’ (Prove it.)”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gnosticism#Christian_Gnosticism_in_the_first_centuries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism#Christianity_and_Gnosticism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_Library
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html
http://reluctant-messenger.com/Lost-Doctrines-Christianity003.htm
Be aware that those who defend the power of the Church search all kinds of contradictions to Gnosticism, striving to prove it wrong. This is POLITICS and not necessarily truth…
Saul fought against Christians, wanting to eradicate them. Which Christians??? Obviously those that were there BEFORE HE BECAME PAUL! At that time, there were mainly the Gnostic Christians…
“What about their texts?(source?)”
http://gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
“Why were they destroyed, (said who?)”
Say historical facts as well as official theology and research in the history of religion.
“but luckily saved as by divine will until discovered again in 1945?(divine will? by what authority do you speak?)”
Prove the contrary!
“Why did Constantine silence the Gnostics in the Council of Nicaea in 325? (you have the burden of proof here too)”
Many, such as ‘Histoire des Conciles’. More than 20 volumes with original documents from all the Conciles, Volume 1. Letouzey et Ané, Paris, 1907.
“They were present but not allowed to talk and their petitions given unopened to the fire. (opinion based upon what?)”
Not opinion, fact in “Histoire des Conciles” and other historically scientific text.
http://www.earlychristianhistory.info/nicaea.html
“Why did the Church commit the HIGH SIN of genocide on the Cathars – the last Gnostics? (source ?)”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism , especially: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism#Massacre
“Please reference sources.”
Sorry, but you cannot get around reading links… And scientific texts by scholars in theology and the history of religion. Regrettably for you, lots of important texts are in German, French and other languages you may not know to read, but does that make them less valid?
One of the most important scholars on Gnosticism was Antonio Orbe But you need to be able to read Spanish… Here is a translation of what he wrote about Gnostic Christianity and reincarnation:
http://www.christian-reincarnation.com/PDF/ReincGnost.pdf go to “Antonio Orbe” (too long to quote here, since this already becomes too big…)
And what about the very many apocrypha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha) that were not included in the Bible? Who chose to exclude them, and why? Divine inspiration? By whom, the “Father”, or YHWH? Or by men in political interests?
“Regrettably for you, lots of important texts are in German, French and other languages you may not know to read, but does that make them less valid?”
Brings up a valid point. So we are confined to what we can learn by what we can only understand? The God I believe in is greater than that. His ability to snag us from the fire is not contingent upon what we know, but rather what HE knows. Not what we do but rather what HE does.
As a child we enter the kingdom.
I guess we just choose to disagree. You may be surprised to know that I do not subscribe to modern Christianity. I will always be a voice against it. I do not subscribe to the so called church ushering in the Kingdom that they will rule over. Too many millions have died in the so called “name of God”. I have been beat up pretty badly over my views, as I am sure you can relate. As it is, you and I can go back and forth, quoting this, that and the other, and never come to know each other, how we think or how we may even agree more than what seems to be. We both have doctrines that are not necessarily cooperative. So…
OK, let us conclude this in mutual respect for each other’s views. Sorry we cannot meet personally, there is an ocean between us. I would give you a hug. I feel that you are a sincere searcher, as I believe to also be.
Indeed. I believe you too are searching. Perhaps one day we will find where our paths intersect. See you soon enough brother.