3 Days of Darkness (Cross Revelation)
The Three Days of Darkness is an eschatological belief within Roman Catholicism which parallels the Ten Plagues against Egypt in Exodus. However, this belief is not endorsed by the Holy See. According to the After The Warning page “For generations Christians have been mystified with the accounts in scripture regarding the days of tribulation, from the rise of the Antichrist and the persecution of the faithful to his inevitable end and the destruction of all who followed him or took his mark. Saint John the Apostle described his vision of this final confrontation as such:
“And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” (Revelation 19: 19-21)
The Apostle Matthew had also foreseen the end of the Antichrist’s reign followed by a universal darkness where the heavens themselves would be shaken from their foundations.
“Immediately after the distress of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will lose its brightness, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of Heaven will be shaken”
(Matthew 24:29).
Many Catholic seers and mystics such as Saints Hildegard of Bingen, Gaspar del Bufalo, Padre Pio (see controversy below), and Blesseds Anna Maria Taigi, Elisabeth Canori Mora, Elena Aiello, Mariam Baouardi (Mary of Jesus Crucified), Rosa-Colomba Asdente, Palma d’Oria, Pere Lamy, Marie Martel, and Marie Julie Jahenny, have prophesied the Three Days of Darkness
The 3 Days Of Darkness And The Condition Of The Current Church
3 Days of Darkness-Part 2
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Whistler Blowers, Insiders
FALSE PROPHECY ALERT!!!
This is yet another misinformation article from John Ale. Do not be fooled. The Bible does not mention anything about 3 days of darkness with regards to the end times.
Don’t you try to read the verses from the Bible. They all proof my point buddy
Where in the Bible do you see 3 days of darkness prophesied? You haven’t shown anything from the Bible yet to prove your point, buddy.
Thanks, I will give more info later today. I have to read more stories about these. I know there many people who claim they defen the Bible, yet they destory.
Brother, I will share links and update with more videos to proof my point.
Mr. Ale is misinformed. The Catholic Church’s official position on the Three Days of Darkness remains open. Bible prophecies speak for themselves. They do no require any “endorsement” by the Church.
The Bible says the reign of Antichrist will be terminated by Divine fire falling from the sky. Church Doctors and Fathers agree that this could happen.
In fact, during Pope Benedict’s 2011 Christmas Midnight Mass homily, he cried out to God to burn the earth with fire. If you don’t believe me, read the homily yourself. It’s accessible by anyone on the Vatican’s website.
Yes, I would also like to see those links that show biblical proof of a 3 days of darkness prophecy.
Revelation 8:12 talks about three days of darkness. “And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon and the third part of the stars, so as the third part of them was darkness and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. Before believing anyone, know your bible. Be bible smart and man smart. There will be three days of darkness but not until the great star would fall from the heavens to the earth. Revelation 8:10.
Revelation 8:12 speaks of a THIRD part of the sun, moon, and stars darkened—not 3 days of darkness. One third of something is a fractional part of the whole. If you darkened one third of the sun, that means it would be two thirds (or 66%) as bright.
Maybe this will help:
If this represents the fullness of the light of the sun:
and then a third part of the sun was darkened…..
…then it would shine this much light:
So Revelation 8:12 says nothing about 3 days of darkness. So still, you have provided no Biblical support for 3 days of darkness.
This may be BEEF’s first use of emoticons
EXCUSE ME …didnt you get my LAST message ?
Here Ill post it again:
To both YOU and Mr John Ale and any other naysayers whom think they know it all :
PROVERBS 1:7:The FEAR of the Lord is the BEGINNING of KNOWLEDGE but FOOLS despise wisdom and instruction.
You sir have NO FEAR of the Lord , therefore you have NO Knowledge and what you think passes for knowledge the Lord LAUGHS at.
He is not interested in hearing YOUR ‘knowledge” which is all “HEAD KNOWLEDGE ” sir . BOTH of you.
You Mr John Ale and YOU mr am123 whomever you are.
Your “wisdom is foolishness to God”.
You can fire off all the articles and opinions and scriptures that you like , the LORD does not CARE what you think.
YOU were not called by the Lord , SENT by the Lord nor Commissioned by the Lord.
EPHRAIN RODRIGUEZ whom you mock… WAS !
My authority does NOT come from “The Holy See”.It comes from the Holy Spirit.
I do not recognize “The Holy See” , as any kind of “Spiritual Authority”…. nor does Christ.
I repeat CHRIST “YESHUA ,’ does not recognize the “HOLY SEE” as any kind of SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY about HIMSELF ?
GOT IT ???
Any old “LAZY dead fish ” can sit behind a computer desk IN HIDDEN OBSCURITY and fire off a bunch of words, scriptures, opinions etc , but ….few are actually called by God , chased by Him even when they tell the Lord :
“No Lord I cant do this.
I dont want to do this, please send someone else ” AS THIS MAN HAS IN THIS VIDEO you are all mocking…and then PURSUED EVEN MORE by GOD with additional confirmations, messengers brought to his feet to minister to him and encourage him ,so they know with certainty they cannot escape from doing this thing they dread .
No ….NONE of you know what that is like, because you have never actually been CALLED by God to spread such a harsh message TO MILLIONS .
You have never been “sent ” by the Lord , nor given His AUTHORITY to speak to millions.
Nor have you had the Lords BACKUP in doing so , through Him opening up, door after door after door , even in other countries , through Television and Radio to ensure that MILLIONS hear it , so no one is without excuse when the warning comes to PASS..unlike your obscure Youtube Videos seen only by far less .
Because you see, if you know your scriptures ,then you’ll know that the Lord OPENS doors that no man can shut and SHUTS doors that no man can OPEN….and He has only CONTINUED to open the most “impossible ” of doors over years for Ephrain.
No …you havent HAD signs and wonders following YOU as you bravely take each step of faith , nor Prophets from far off lands specially placed by God to CONFIRM to you the message you are taking to millions.
YOU havent been given a Sign from the Lord of a well known minister whom reaches millions with a Radio and Television network HEARING your words , BELIEVING your words (because that was your only request to God to be given unto you before you took that step of going out and spreading this warning )…. then telling YOU that you must obey and give the message God has given you to send to the millons He sends you to, AS EPHRAIN has.
Then told by the Lord :HIS PASSING will be MY sign that these things which I give you to speak WILL COME TO PASS SHORTLY THEREAFTER.
You havent lost your health , your hair , your frends and had thousands of “Brothers and sisters” in the Lord turn from you , call you demon possessed or try to tell you “But God is a God is a Love ..or ….He would NEVER do that ..or ….But dont you know what THIS scripture says “…, BECAUSE YOU had been commissioned by God to take this message to hundreds of churches and even other countries.
Until you can show me proof that ALL of the above has happened to you , then you need to sit down, shut your mouth and submit to what Ephrain is saying in this Video, because believe me the Lord WILL deliver all He says He will do in it .
BOth of you need to grow up , seek the Lord for the truth instead of relying on your very limited HEAD KNOWLEDGE to understand the Omnipotent mind of God…which you will never be able to do , because NEITHER of you HAVE THE FEAR OF THE LORD as EPHRAIN does.
You are not authorized by the Holy Spirit to “correct” anyone .
He does not recognize you.
He has not “sent ” you, nor is His FAVOR apon you.
Your words are “dung” to the Lord. He does not care how many scriptures you try to boast.
Your pride and arrogance are an offense to God.
Your boasting and ego He spews out of His Mouth.
He opens no doors for you and unless you repent the very judgement you mock WILL come apon your head.
Mr John Ale you shall remove the words : eschatological folk belief from your thinking because you FORGET : SATAN COUNTERFEITS the REAL!
You may well have been mocking a COUNTERFEIT but DO NOT mock the REAL!
ACTS 9:
And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and WHEN HIS EYES WERE OPENED HE SAW NO MAN: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was THREE DAYS WITHOUT SIGHT, and neither did eat nor drink.
10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately THERE FELL FROM HIS EYES AS IT HAD BEEN SCALES: AND HE RECIEVED SIGHT FORTHWITH, and arose, and was baptized.
**HOW MANY NOTICED THAT SAUL WAS STRUCK WITH DARKNESS FOR 3 DAYS ???***
Why?? So that he would REPENT and “SEE” the Truth.
This is why God must send THREE DAYS OF DARKNESS whether you like it or not or wether it “agrees” with your limited understanding of scripture .
So that millions will REPENT and “SEE ” the TRUTH!
..and if you think that all of you mockers firing off a bunch of Articles or Youtube Videos or posting your “head knowledge” will cause God to stop sending EPHRAIN to millions to keep warning the people as he has been commissioned to do for THREE YEARS now and had this message BIRTHED in him 40 years before that…think again!
The Lord LAUGHS at you! He passes right by you. He cares not about your articles or your “head knowledge”.
However, come to Him in repentance ,in total humility and by FAITH & He will show you great mysteries that no man has shown you before .
Recieve the message He has placed in Ephrain JUST AS HE HAS SPOKEN IT, for never once has He told him to add or take away from any of it …….and you will be blessed .
REJECT IT, SCOFF AT IT , MOCK IT , trying to exert yourself as the REAL “expert” and you may find Your name blotted out of the Lambs Book of Life!
DO NOT touch the Lords Anointed !
BY the way mr “am123″ I am convinced that YOU are a FALSE PROPHET , demonically possessed and I discern this by your avatar , trying to look like JESUS .
God is not fooled and He is watching you and you too , Mr John Ale.
You shall cease and desist this persecution of Ephrain Rodriguez IMMEDIATELY because you are BOTH “in error” and you walk a “tight wire” with the God of the Universe.
Now …take the time to watch the FULL VIDEO , first taped for SANTA DOMINGO CHRISTIAN TELEVISION shortly before JUNE 2013, but only released worldwide on DEC 17TH.
YOU WILL GET SOME SHOCKING INFORMATION and see how much the Lord had instructed him to WITHOLD between then and NOW .
WHY ………because , back then, he was still waiting in faith for certain things to come to pass. By DEC 17TH………they DID!
PUBLISHED ON DEC 26 2013
EFRAIN RODRIGUEZ – PROPHECY FOR PUERTO RICO, ASTEROID/TSUNAMI
Full Video: http://youtu.be/EWhCZgID6tY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWhCZgID6tY&feature=youtu.be
WATCH IT AND LEARN instead of assuming. You dont and wont have the fuller picture of what God is doing until you watch the FULL Video.
You quote from a fable and it is just a story…….prove to me and the rest of the people that adam and eve came before the dinosaurs and i,ll believe until then push your religion somewhere else.
MR FALSE PROPHET whom calls himself “am123″ & sees himself as an expert on the mind and workings of God YOU LACK ONE THING:
THE HOLY SPIRIT.
You are operating solely on HEAD KNOWLEDGE not by the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
The Lord does not care how much you comb the scriptures to try and “null and void” everything that EPHRAIN RODRIGUEZ has been “SENT” ( which YOU are not ) to speak to the world.
He is not interested in hearing YOUR ‘Head Knoweldge”.
In fact He finds it offensive.
You have no clue- because you do not know the Holy Spirit – that the Lord has had “hidden codes” in His Word REVEALED ONLY by the Holy Spirit and not by your natural sight.
He speaks in RIDDLES and through MYSTERIES.
These can ONLY be revealed BY THE HOLY SPIRIT not by your limited carnal HEAD KNOWLEDGE .
ACTS 9.
THREE DAYS OF DARKNESS. READ IT . THERE IT IS .
This is totally in ALIGNMENT with His PLAN for bringing the 3 DAYS OF DARKNESS in the first place, that He has been speaking forth not just through Ephrain but hundreds of obedient servants/anointed and appointed messengers of the Lord whom actually FEAR HIM.
You know nothing about the FEAR OF THE LORD.
You have none , because you are demonically possesed just like the spirit that pestered Peter in the Book of Acts whom he had to REBUKE.
That is not the Holy Spirit speaking through you , it is another spirit sent to cause dissention AND distraction AWAY from the Holy Spirit.
You need to repent NOW and ask the Lord to fill you with the Holy Spirit . It is NOT the Holy Spirit that causes you to post all these comments.
It is a demonic spirit…and it is trying to take away your peace with God .
It is trying to take over your mind so that your mind is NOT renewed by the mind of God.
Satan I come against you trying to possess this mans mind to steer him away from the TRUE HOLY SPIRIT and the Peace of God which passeth all understanding and I command you LOSE your grip over him right now, in the Mighty Name of Yeshua , Jesus Christ whom died on the cross for this man so that he could know the saving grace of our Lord.
I bind you satan from covering this mans eyes and ears from HEARING the True Holy Spirit and Lord to LOOSE the Power of Your Glory apon this man so that he may see.. and take the REAL truth to your people .
I ask Lord that you give him a NEW revelation of Your Word . New Insights. New Understandings.
Open his mind & heart to your TRUE WORD & many of the HIDDEN MYSTERIES within it .
Thank you Jesus. AMEN!
Saul’s epiphany on the road to Damascus is your first evidence for the 3 days of darkness? Don’t try that around here and expect to get away with it. Luke said that Saul was blinded for 3 days, not the same thing at all. Didn’t bother to read your discourse beyond this
We are repeatedly seeing your “must have the Holy Spirit in order to solve the mystery” argument shown to be a vain attempt to keep many from The Word.
@ liberty,
Thanks, but I assure you a cyber-exorcism
is not necessary 
Me and the Most High are more than thisclose
You said:
“ACTS 9.
THREE DAYS OF DARKNESS. READ IT . THERE IT IS .”
NO IT ISN’T
I READ IT
THANKS MAYHEM FOR FERRETING OUT THIS FRAUD
, TRYING TO PASS OFF THREE DAYS OF PAUL’S BLINDNESS 
AS THREE DAYS OF DARKNESS 
So a truth can be only true if its in the bible?
The bible is not the only source of information.
The bible comes in handy for the big outlines but for details you need to look around you what also stands in the bible.
“The Three Days of Darkness is an eschatological belief within Roman Catholicism which parallels the Ten Plagues against Egypt in Exodus”
The three days of darkness is an annual phenomena, nothing to do with the inventors of Christianity, the Roman Catholic Church. The sun sinks to it’s lowest point on the horizon on 21st december, the winter solstice. It stays at that low point for 3 days, hence the 3 days in the cave/grave/tomb, followed by a rebirth on the 25th, because by the 25th the sun starts it’s journey back into the sky again. The festival is called Christ-mass. Christ = an ancient term for the sun, meaning ‘anointed one’, and mass = a gathering of people.
Nothing what so ever to do with the mythical 10 plagues of Egypt. One is fact, the other ancient myth.
Revelation 8:12 talks about three days of darkness. “And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon and the third part of the stars, so as the third part of them was darkness and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. Before believing anyone, know your bible. Be bible smart and man smart. There will be three days of darkness but not until the great star would fall from the heavens to the earth. Revelation 8:10.
Revelation 8:12 speaks of a THIRD part of the sun, moon, and stars darkened—not 3 days of darkness. One third of something is a fractional part of the whole. If you darkened one third of the sun, that means it would be two thirds (or 66%) as bright.
It is true that Revelation makes references which could be interpreted to mean the three days of darkness. This is particularly true of the 6th Seal, which speaks of the sun turning black and a great darkness covering the earth while the people seek to hide themselves from the wrath of God. This sounds eerily similar to the many accounts of the saints and mystics about the three days of darkness. We have enough recurring information on the subject to take it seriously.
I’ve got my blessed candles ready just in case!
Specifically where does it say 3 days? It doesn’t.
If you are saying the sun turning black could be interpreted as going dark for 3 days, then it could mean the sun turns dark for “x” days where you can substitute any number for “x”.
No one can ever truly unravel the book of Revelation. It is a mystery that only God can reveal. I’m saying that the 6th Seal COULD be a reference to the 3 days of darkness.
A better question, in keeping with your own line of thought: where, specifically, does it say in the Bible that “the Bible is the only source of God’s revelation to mankind?” I can demonstrate quite easily that the answer is nowhere. Hence, one cannot discount the possibility that God would reveal end times events to saints and mystics outside of the Bible.
“Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.”
—Amos 3:7
The prophets Amos spoke of are the prophets of the OT of the Bible, the same prophets Jesus spoke of when He said:
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
—Matthew 5:17
So you have the Old Testament prophets, which do not mention this 3 days of darkness of which you speak, and you have the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy, which mentions not this 3 days of darkness.
Servus Mariae asked:
“[W]here, specifically, does it say in the Bible that “the Bible is the only source of God’s revelation to mankind?”
That’s an excellent question, Servus. I’m glad you asked. Here we have:
YE SHALL NOT ADD unto the Word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the Commandments of the LORD your God which I commanded you.
(Deuteronomy 4:2)
FOR I TESTIFY unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of THIS BOOK, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this Book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the Book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in THIS BOOK.
(Revelation 22:18-19)
What is “THIS BOOK” written of in the above two verses? Is it simply the Book of Revelation, and nothing more? Not likely:
SEEK YE OUT OF THE BOOK OF THE LORD, and read: No one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: For My Mouth it hath commanded…
(Isaiah 34:16)
So Servus, we see plainly written in these verses that we MAY NOT ALTER or amend what the Most High has written. And since we have in hand NUMEROUS emphatic pronouncements from HIM that HE DOES NOT CHANGE, and that, relative to these Heavens and to this Earth, His Instructions WILL NOT CHANGE either, then we should reject, as a matter of prudent due course and principle, ANY suggestion from ANY man, group of men, or institution, that there is something external to the written Word which, of its own or some other authority, can or may alter or amend what has BEEN WRITTEN.
Any man, group of men, or institution which claims the authority to add to, to subtract from, or to otherwise change Scripture, IS ANATHEMA and will be dealt with as such in the Day of Judgment. And ANY man or woman who allows themselves to be fooled, to be persuaded, by any such lying claims to authority over the written Word, have only themselves to blame, considering the LOUDLY PRONOUNCED and OFTEN REPEATED admonitions of the Most High to listen to HIM ONLY, and NEVER to men.
Let GOD be true, but every man a liar; as it is written.
Beef, your argument here is flawed.
You say: Any man, group of men, or institution which claims the authority to add to,
to subtract from, or to otherwise change Scripture, IS ANATHEMA …..
Except for the Ten commandments written by YHWH himself, all scriptures are the work of
man. Then man decided what was to be taken up as Scripture inspired by the Spirit of God
and what not. In effect, man declares himself ANATHEMA for claiming the authority of decision
and judgement.
Owl,
Please see my comment below to Servus Mariae (beginning with “Then said I, Lo…”) and let me know if you still think the argument is flawed.
Thanks
Response to BEEF SUPREME:
Deuteronomy 4:2 um…hello? The apostles wrote the New Testament under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. In so doing, THEY THEMSELVES were “adding” to Scripture in apparent violation of the Old Testament rule. But it was in fact NOT a violation because God inspired these men to write about the fulfillment of the Old Scriptures; in essence, to add a new chapter to the book of salvation history. If God can inspire men to “add” to Scripture as the apostles did when writing the New Testament, then He can also inspire men outside of scripture altogether. In any case, Deuteronomy 4:2 DOES NOT state that the Bible alone contains all necessary doctrinal truth.
Revelation 22:18-19 states that no MAN must add to or detract from the words contained within the scriptures. This prohibition does not apply to God-given additions. Thus, again, the apostles “added” to the already existing scriptures of the day by writing the New Testament under the inspiration of God. The saints and mystics who have revealed events or mysteries outside of the Bible have done so under the inspiration of God as well. These are God’s additions coming through men. Does God not have the right to “add” to His own word? Does He not have the right to use a human being in so doing if He chooses?
Isaiah 24:16 simply states that none of the Bible’s words shall ever fail. Obviously. It does NOT state that the Bible’s words alone are necessary.
Your statement would seem to condemn all possibility that God can inspire saints and mystics and institutions (The Catholic Church) to do His will and pass on His Teachings. Yet this is precisely what he did when inspiring the apostles. Jesus did NOT pass out Bibles and declare anyone who speaks in His name to be false. He appointed Peter as the “rock” upon which His Church would be built (NOT the Bible). It was the Church (an institution composed of men yet founded by God) which wrote the New Testament and compiled the Bible as we know it today. You seem to exalt the Bible almost as God Himself, as if God cannot appoint men to do His work here on earth. Like it or not, to condemn the Church is to condemn the Bible, which came from the Church inspired by God.
Response to am123:
Amos 3:7 proves my point. God reveals things to us by means of his prophets. If the Old Testament Scriptures were all that were needed, and every Jew could read the Scriptures for themselves and interpret them any way they felt “moved”, what possible purpose then could prophets be? Prophets were given to help the people understanding the proper meaning of the scriptures, just as the apostles did later in the New Testament and just as their successors do today. Even from an Old Testament perspective, sola scriptura is bogus. Besides, do you know how many things the prophets spoke about that were not written down in the scriptures? How much of your own life do you write down every day? You can’t. There’s just too much. hmm. Reminds me of John 21:25. Get the picture? There is much much more to Christianity than just what’s in the Bible. We look to the apostles to get the fuller story. But since the apostles died long ago, we look now to their successors, knowing that the fuller picture was handed down to them in an unbroken line straight from Peter the rock and the apostles united to him.
Matthew 5:17 Exactly! God did not destroy the Old Law but fulfilled it in the New! The Old Law had a ministerial priesthood. The Old Law had prophets to teach the scriptures and to warn the people of God’s judgement. Jesus did not do away with this order but brought it to fulfillment in Himself. Thus, the New Law has a ministerial priesthood, united to the Eternal High Priesthood of Jesus Christ. It is no longer the animal sacrifices of old which the priest offers, but the one and only sacrifice of Christ made present at every Mass. The New Law has saints and mystics and bishops to teach the scriptures fulfilled by Jesus and sometimes to warn the people of God’s judgement as in the case of the 3 days of darkness.
Conclusion:
/religion/2013/11/biblical-evidence-for-sacred-tradition-magisterial-authority-2458540.html
/religion/2013/11/sola-scriptura-not-according-to-the-bible-2458402.html
/religion/2013/11/the-role-of-sacred-tradition-in-the-church-2458288.html
I believe that God inspires Peter the “rock” or “foundation” and his successors to understand the scriptures. You believe that God inspires YOU to understand the scriptures independently of the foundation. Yet without a foundation, a building will eventually crumble. Every man will take his Bible and go his own way, leaving behind the original path marked out by Jesus 2,000 years ago. With 40,000+ splintered and divided Christian sects across the world all bickering over the Bible and its meaning, what more evidence of my point could there be? Sola Scriptura causes division and division comes from satan. Jesus prayed that His followers be one as He and His Father are one. Christians will never be united until they return to the House of God founded on solid rock (Peter). Until then, the division shall only grow worse. But God has promised us through His inspired saints and mystics of the Church that He will soon intervene to restore order.
Good night.
“Then said I, Lo, I come: in the VOLUME OF THE BOOK it is written of Me…”
Servus wrote:
“The apostles wrote the New Testament under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. In so doing, THEY THEMSELVES were “adding” to Scripture in apparent violation of the Old Testament rule.”
Not so Servus. As you yourself have just admitted, and I have no doubt you believe, the Apostles did nothing in contradiction to the Law of YHWH. The Ten Commandments are expounded in the Law and the Prophets. Next comes the Spirit through Messiah to show by example what the Living Law looks like in practice. Messiah came to TEACH the Law, and so He did. The Apostles didn’t conjure anything out of their imaginations and they didn’t claim recourse to some foreign or alien authority – they merely reported what they saw. The Apostles (and Disciples) testified; they did not ADD anything to the Law, nor did they detract from it.
The question of yours to which I originally responded makes it clear that you understand the parameters of this problem: THE BOOK consists of the Law, the Prophets, the Gospels and the Letters. There is NOTHNG written within that whole which is contradictory to any other part. Therefore, if the Apostles provided testimony about Messiah, the LIVNG LAW, there is absolutely no violation of the injunction to NEVER add to or subtract from what has been written. Had the Apostles suggested recourse to some foreign or alien body of ‘tradition’ or ‘teaching’ – especially one which BRAZENLY and NAKEDLY contradicts what has been written in the Law – then they would be ANATHEMA. But now, the Apostles have done no such thing; nor have I suggested anything of the kind. I afford the Roman Rite no such courtesy. The Roman Rite is ANATHEMA because it contradicts and violates, and it adds to and subtracts from what has been written.
Explaining the Law, which is what the Prophets did, is not the same as ADDING to the Law. Testifying as to what they have witnessed, which is what the Apostles and the Disciples did, is not the same thing as ADDING to the Word. Adding to the Word is what your beloved institution does, without once EVER offering tangible evidence of a source for their self-claimed authority. Rome VIOLATES that which is written in all Rome does. Rome IS violation of the written Word.
HEAR ME CLEARLY, Servus: Neither the Apostles nor the Disciples of Messiah, nor again the Prophets of YHWH, did by their actions violate the Commandment. I have suggested nothing of the kind.
IS IT POSSIBLE that there will be further revelation and further prophecy? No. It is not possible. It is GUARANTEED. It is guaranteed because it is written that it WILL happen. But the inconvenient fact which you consistently overlook is that EVERY WORD of prophecy and EVERY ASPECT of revelation MUST BE IN PERFECT ACCORD with what has been written. We who know Scripture will not have a hard time determining if ‘new’ prophecy or revelation agrees absolutely with the written Word. Wherever there are discrepancies, there is a HUGE, an INSRURMOUNTABLE problem. Because if the new ‘prophet’ or the new ‘visionary’ is not in perfect accord with the written Word, then that prophet or that visionary is a liar, or he is simply deceived. And if he is deceived, then it is HIS FAULT for not TESTING THE SPIRITS, according to 1 JOHN CHAPTER 4, which the Roman Rite has CENSORED from ALL OF ITS BIBLES. ROME has HIDDEN THE TRUTH of testing the spirits because ROME IS UNCLEAN.
YES Servus, Scripture ALONE contains all necessary Doctrinal Truth. The WRITTEN WORD OF YHWH is not to be tampered with.
I have my orders in hand from the Most High, Servus. SO DO YOU. That is why you are without excuse if you persist in your defense of and apology for the Rebellious Spirit you have joined yourself to.
Beef, you know that I normally refrain from sparring except when His Spirit urges me to.
Though I fully agree with this comment to Servus, claiming Scripture as having been written by YHWH stirred me to comment.
YHWH only ever wrote the 10 Commandments.
Then He sent the living Word, Messiah, to physically show and explain His commands.
Even Messiah never wrote down a single word.
Scripture is a testimony to all this, written by man, compiled by man and translated by man.
We must beware of elevating Scripture above the living Messiah, who alone owns of the Book of Life.
Owl,
Are you truly looking at the words I used, and not inserting something you think you see me saying? Please note above that nowhere have I even suggested that the entirety of the Scriptures were written by YHWH. You will notice that I said the Apostles testified. The Apostles and the Disciples were the authors of the Gospels and Epistles which bear their names. Of this, I have no doubt. Again, the Old Testament Prophets were the authors who composed the Books which bear their names. All of this was done by the inspiration of the Spirit.
Furthermore, I do not believe we presently possess an inerrant recording of the Scriptures. But I believe what we have inherited to be very much adequate to the job of studying the inerrant Word which DID exist and WAS transmitted. I believe the Scriptures have been protected over the millennia, and have survived ALMOST wholly intact and ALMOST unscathed, but I do not believe what we now have to be flawless DABAR ELOHIM.
I do believe, however, that through diligent study we can very effectively adjust any modern shortcomings in the manuscripts to more adequately reflect Scripture in its true and unadulterated state. I believe we can do this through our own diligence and with HIS guidance and direction.
More than that, I don’t think you and I are in disagreement about much at all.
I would add:
Initially I said: “Not so Servus” in response to “The apostles wrote the New Testament under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”
Now I see the confusion I am causing. When I wrote “NOT SO”, I did not intend to argue the point that the Apostles authored the Gospels and Letters which bear their names, but rather that suggestion that they may have illegitimately ADDED to the WORD when they did so.
My apologies for a lack of clarity, Owl. Your eyes were better than mine.
The Prophets, Apostles and Disciples DID write. They did so according to the Spirit. Messiah DID NOT write. He taught.
This is what I believe.
Sacred Tradition is defined as the Oral Teaching of the Apostles ON the Scriptures which do not contain everything that Jesus did , said, or taught. Tradition, which you condemn, does not contradict Scripture but rather compliments it. The Apostles had no authority to add to scripture on their own, but they added to it under the direction of the Holy Spirit. To negate Tradition is to negate Scripture itself because they both came from the same source i.e. human instruments working under the direction of God.
I am sad to see that you have COMPLETELY missed the pint of my argument. As my articles have demonstrated quite thoroughly, there is NO passage which says “the bible is all you need” but rather there are several passages which indicate the opposite.
Beef, it’s not that my eyes are better than those of others. It’s just sort of a little red light flashing up from inside at some sayings/writings, urging me to respond.
I do concede to sometimes seeing more than what is obvious and therefore mostly refrain from commenting.
We sure don’t have much that we disagree on and if we do, we know how to sort it out quickly.
It is written:
That he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of YHWH doth man live.
Servus Mariae wrote:
“[T]here is NO passage which says “the bible is all you need” but rather there are several passages which indicate the opposite.”
I will ask you please to produce even ONE such verse, Servus. That should make your present task at hand most simple.
One verse, Servus. And please do not simply abandon this conversation without providing the verse for what you INSIST is truth.
Beef Supreme is asking a fair enough question, Servus Mariae. The only verses you reference are by way of rebuttal and while you deny the implicit intent, of these passages, many of us will be seeing Beef’s argument as rock solid. Just one of the “several”? Please.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I believe what he is saying here guys is: Pointing at peter whom denied him 3 times in the garden when he was getting tortured, I say to you POINTING to him, then pointing to the rock(EARTH) upon this rock I will build my church..It really was a warning to the disciples and to Peter specifically not to CROSS him ever again(NOT to fall asleep again and go astray when he was gone)… try not to read too much into the scriptures as you will wind up lost like you guys are today. and NO i dont need to be corrected on this matter babes go drink some water or better yet learn to put the bible in perspective… and keep your opinions to yourself. If you were true followers of the lord you would sell all you have give to the poor and carry that cross of YOURS, stop trying to carry his he can carry it just fine pick up your own and follow him. If you were true to the lord your life believe me would not be peaches and creame… your life would be full of suffering, thats for sure..you would not have anything materialistic, no job, no $$$, not much thats for sure..I know..I lost everything, kids wives, house, jobs, everything…but what i do is repent daily, ask for guidance, follow the 10 commandments and follow the little voice in my heart. Its all i can do, OH and read what you guys say daily…ha
OK back for more, 11 down vote favorite
Considering Matthew 16:23:
Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
Why did Jesus choose the “Get behind me Satan” phrase here? Is there context for this elsewhere in the gospels or in the Bible?
Now add this to that above…Now why in hell would our lord say this to Peter and then give him the keys to the church he said to peter that He(the lord) would build himself???
I feel bad for ppl who lie in God’s name. Poor John. Straight to hell for you.
Response to BEEF SUPREME:
You ask me for one verse. I will give you many:
/religion/2013/11/biblical-evidence-for-sacred-tradition-magisterial-authority-2458540.html
May i argue the first point? 2 Peter is a letter probably written to the Goy and the internal evidence within the letter indicates its purpose was to strengthen, his fellow believers in, their faith born hope. So that they would be on their guard and not taken in by false teachers.
Now you want to argue the opposite?
I am NOT playing that game, Servus. If you want me to read your articles, I will do so only if you LIFT your ban on comments.
Furthermore, our conversation is taking place HERE. It is not taking place elsewhere.
I ask you for ONE verse which says what you claim. ONE verse, Servus. Please produce it. Please do not direct me to any more of your articles, or anything else written by another.
I have asked you for Scripture.
You can either provide me with a single verse which agrees with you, or you cannot.
Valid respectful request….i also await your response….humbly.
Response to BEEF SUPREME:
Ignoring the fact that your refusal to click on my link (which I provided out of mere convenience) is completely unreasonable and only lends credibility to my own position….
…here…
Contrary to the Protestant belief, the Bible does in fact demonstrate the existence and necessity of Sacred, Apostolic Tradition and the interpretative authority of the Magisterium. In 2 Peter 3:16, for example, we read the following:
“There are some things in them [scriptures] hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”—2 Peter 3:16
These are hardly the words of a man advocating for sola scriptura; for this passage shows plainly that it is possible for a Christian to misinterpret Scripture based on his own reasoning.
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”—2 Peter 1:20-21
This States clearly that the individual Christian has NO right to interpret scripture apart from those men whom God has chosen to speak through (i.e. the Apostles). It Shows that even “fallible men” can be inspired by God to speak infallibly, but that this infallibility is NOT granted to the individual Christian, but only to qualified persons chosen by God, such as the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament, and the Apostles of the New Testament.
“And Phillip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: ‘Think you that you understand what you read?’ Who said: ‘And how can I, unless some man show me?’ And he desired Phillip that he would come up and sit with him….Then Phillip, opening his mouth, and beginning as this scripture, preached unto him Jesus.”—Acts 8:30-31; 35
It’s very revealing to notice what Phillip the Apostle did here. He saw a man reading Scripture and asked him, “Do you understand it?” The man replied, “How can I, unless some man show me?” Phillip did not at this point begin to encourage the man to use his own private interpretation, as Protestants do, but he opened his mouth and taught the man what the scripture of Isaiah meant with regard to Jesus. This implies that Phillip has authority to teach verbally on the scriptures. This oral instruction to go along with the Bible is called Sacred Tradition, with a capital T, and the authority of St. Peter and the Apostles united to him to interpret the Bible correctly is called the Magisterial Teaching.
Now, This concept of Apostolic Tradition and authoritative Magisterium becomes clearer upon examining other passages.
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.”—2 Thes. 2:14
St. Paul clearly urges Christians to hold onto the traditions of the Apostles given to them by oral instruction or by scripture. The common Protestant argument, of course, is that Jesus condemned “man-made traditions.” The answer to this is that The Tradition of the Apostles, like the Scriptures written by the Apostles, is inspired by GOD and not by man. This is so because it would be illogical to assume that the apostles can write scripture infallibly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit but then not be able to speak infallibility about the scriptures which they themselves wrote. The traditions which Jesus condemns are the lower case t traditions, which are the traditions of men. But he condemns these only insofar as they conflict with the higher commandments of God. The capital T Tradition, the Apostolic Tradition, however, is defined as the oral teaching of the Apostles handed down throughout the centuries along with the scriptures. If the scriptural teaching of the Apostles is infallible, then the oral teaching of the Apostles must also be infallible. Thus, the Apostolic, capital T Tradition of the Apostles, is not a man-made tradition at all, but a Divinely-inspired Tradition.
“And they were persevering in the doctrine of the Apostles,” –Acts 2:42
The early Christians submitted to the teaching authority (Magisterium) of the Apostles. They were NOT interpreting Scripture for themselves but only with and under the instruction and doctrine of the Apostles.
“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”—John 21:25
Jesus taught so much that the Apostles couldn’t possibly write it all down in scripture. They compensated for this problem by preaching orally what Jesus taught, reserving the most core and key concepts of the Gospel for the scriptures. The Bible, therefore, does not contain all that was taught by Jesus. St. John admits that this would not have been possible. Adherents of sola scriptura who reject apostolic tradition, in DISOBEDIENCE to St. Paul’s exhortation from Thessalonians, are robbing themselves of many precious and valuable teachings, which are not contained in the Scriptures.
“But the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel hath been preached unto you.”—1 Peter 1:25
Preaching implies oral instruction. The Apostles did not simply write the New Testament and then hand out Bibles to be interpreted freely in just any way. Rather, they wrote the Scriptures, preached orally on what was contained in the Scriptures, and helped the early Christians to understand the Scriptures properly, just as St. Phillip did in the book of Acts.
Even in the secular world for instance, we do not believe that a math or history textbook is the single, sole authority on the subject of math or history. We understand that there is much more to the subject than could possibly be contained within a single volume. We look, therefore, to our teachers, so that they may help us to understand properly what is in the textbook, and provide us with much more information than could possibly be contained within the textbook itself. This is what St. John means in 21:25. Jesus did and taught so much that they couldn’t write it all down, so they infallibly wrote down the key components of the Gospel message, they disseminated them among the Christians communities as a teaching apparatus, and they infallibly expounded upon what they had written while helping the Christians to understand properly what was contained within their Divinely inspired Gospel textbook as it were.
“And the things which you have heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men, who shall be fit to teach others also.”—2 Tim:2:2
This is interesting. St. Paul is telling us that faithful Christians who hear the oral instruction (Tradition) of the Apostles (Magisterium) on the Scriptures will at this point be able to go out and teach others also. In other words, The Apostles are the primary teachers of the Gospel, and individual Christians only have the right to teach on the Scriptures insofar as they submit to the primary teaching and authoritative interpretation of the Apostles.
“Wherein I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and teacher of the Gentiles.”—2 Tim 1:11
Who is the teacher of the Gentiles? The Bible? NO. St. Paul is appointed teacher, who, as we know, instructed the Gentiles orally as well as scripturally.
“Keep the good thing, committed to your trust by the Holy Ghost, who dwells in us.”—2 Tim 1:14
Christians are to keep what has been entrusted to them by the Holy Spirit through the Apostles in whom the Holy Spirit dwells. The implication is that the Holy Spirit guides the apostles.
“And evidently great is the mystery of godliness, which was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels, hath been preached unto the Gentiles, is believed in the world, is taken up in glory.”—1 Tim 3:16
Another reference to oral Tradition.
“Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you.”—1 Cor 11:2
Hmm. Sounds like St. Paul is speaking with authority here, in commanding Christians to keep his ordinances personally, instead of simply those ordinances which are already contained in the Scriptures.
“But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth.”—1 Tim 3:15
What is the pillar of truth? The Bible? NO. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth. The Bible is a teaching tool of the Church, NOT the sole teaching authority itself.
Notice also the word “ground” in this passage. This word could easily be rendered as “base” or “foundation.” Where else do we find this kind of language with regard to the Apostles?
“Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God. Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”—Eph 2:19-20
It doesn’t get much clearer than that. The Church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles, meaning that they play an essential role in the Church’s structure, mission and function. Without a foundation, a building collapses. Without the Apostles, the Church collapses. Here the Protestant concept of sola scriptura falls apart. If the Bible is all you need, WHY is the Church built upon the Apostles, NOT the Bible??? The answer is that the Bible is a teaching tool of the Apostles who are the foundation of the Church, and who are the authoritative interpreters of the tool which they themselves wrote.
“And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.”—John 14:16
The Holy Spirit is here, after the Last Supper, promised to the Apostles to abide in them and thereby lead them “unto all truth.” By extension, the Holy Spirit is promised also to individual Christians, but the primary authority remains with the Apostles who are the inspired teachers of individual Christians.
“And whoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet. Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Somdom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city…..For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.”—Mt. 10:14-15; 20
Jesus is here speaking directly to His Apostles in saying that those who reject the Apostles’ teaching will be judged severely on the day of judgment, because the Apostles speak with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. In the parallel passage from Luke where Jesus commissions the 72 disciples for a similar task, these disciples are NOT superior to or separate from the 12 Apostles, but rather work in union with them, as priests today work under and in union with the bishops, who are the successors to the Apostles.
“And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore,teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”—Mt. 28:18-20
Again, Jesus speaks to His Apostles in this passage, commanding them to teach the nations, NOT merely to pass out Bibles and let everyone interpret scripture for themselves. He says that He is with the Apostles all days even unto the end of the world. By extension, He is with all Christians, but in a special, primary way with the Apostles because they are the ones commissioned to make Christians and to teach all Christians.
“Simon Peter answered and said: ‘Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.’ And Jesus answering, said to him: ‘Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”—Mt. 16:15-19
Wow! Peter has authority in heaven and on earth! The keys to the kingdom, that is, the keys to the Church are entrusted to him! What Peter says GOES.
Whenever a biblical figure receives a name change from God, it is a sign that the person in question is about to embark on a major, life-changing mission for the service of God. Abram, who was changed to Abraham comes to mind. Simon being changed to Peter, indicates that he is the rock or foundation upon which the Church will be built. I emphasize that the Church’s foundation is PETER, not the Bible. How could God found His Church on one “fallible man?” The answer is because God Himself inspires that “fallible man” to teach infallibly.
At the heart of matter, we see that Protestants do not reject authority per se. They simply shift this authority and infallibility away from Peter and onto themselves. They do not believe that God can inspire the pope (who succeeds Peter) infallibly, because they believe that the pope is only a fallible man, BUT they do believe that God does inspire them infallibly when they read the Bible, even though they themselves are also a fallible men and women.
They reject the Apostolic Tradition inspired by God in favor of the man-made tradition of sola scriptura. And They reject the authority of the pope to lead the Church in favor of being pope in their own personal lives.
For these and for so many, many other reasons that I don’t have time to get into right now, the foundation upon which sola scriptura is based is fundamentally and inherently flawed.
Please see below for my reply to this posting.
@ Servus Mariae,
You quoted Ephesians and said this:
“Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God. Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.”—Eph 2:19-20
It doesn’t get much clearer than that.”
——————————————
I agree
Our foundation consists of Apostles, or those animated by the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy (see REV 19:10). And nowhere in the Gospels or the rest of the New Testament do the Apostles say anything about this so-called prophecy of 3 days of darkness.
Our foundation also consists of the prophets, of which our Chief Cornerstone of the temple of God said this:
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
—Matthew 5:17
The prophets Jesus referred to, that He came to fulfill, are what today are commonly known as the Old Testament prophets, the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, and so forth.
So if our Savior and the Chief Cornerstone of our foundation was looking for prophetic truth in what Isaiah said, what Jeremiah said, what Ezekiel said, etc., then where should we be looking for prophetic truth
Nowhere in the Old Testament prophets do you find a 3 days of darkness in the end time prophecies.
So when put up against the measuring line of the prophets and the testimony of Jesus, this 3 days of darkness thing utterly fails as a prophecy.
If you want to go outside the prophets and outside the testimony of Jesus for prophecies, that is up to you. But remember this:
—Amos 3:7
Do you guys hear yourselves telling god he is constrained into a book..so not only are you ignorantly speaking for him, but telling others who and what he is, what he can and cant do, how to act, even what to look like. Now thats just absurd. Do you really think you would even know him if he was on this site? or would you know better to rebuke him even if he took the time to type a message such as this??
Messiah will be easy to spot. His brothers are here on this message board and by their example we know what we are looking for.
@Desert Owl
@Beef Supreme
@am123
@Saber
My King: do you know him? Have you got five minutes to spare?…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sChJUaU5W9I
… now just suppose it’s all true; are you suggesting that would be difficult to identify?
The Great Secret of the Ages?
PS … correction ‘that He would’ M.
Servus Mariae,
I rather hoped to keep the scope of this conversation as narrow as possible to avoid needless confusion, and to avoid the tactic of dumping numerous verses all at once, in an effort to befuddle.
Let’s keep it simple. Here are the first THREE of your submitted texts, which you would have us believe argue that it is ACCEPTABLE to stray outside of the Scriptures for sound teaching.
One at a time:
First the verse
“There are some things in them [scriptures] hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”—2 Peter 3:16
And then your commentary
“These are hardly the words of a man advocating for sola scriptura; for this passage shows plainly that it is possible for a Christian to misinterpret Scripture based on his own reasoning.”
Let’s start by stating the obvious: There is nothing at all in this verse which says anything of the kind you keep insisting on. What the verse DOES say is that those who read the Scriptures may be prone (as you state) to misinterpretation. Unfortunately for your argument Servus, misinterpretation is not confined to the writings of the Apostle Paul, which is the segment of Scripture Peter is referring to in 2 Peter 3:16. Furthermore, there is nothing even IMPLIED in Peter’s words which should lead us to conclude that he is here arguing in favor of some source of additional information, which is external to the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:16 most emphatically does not say or suggest anything even approximating your argument.
First the verse
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”—2 Peter 1:20-21
And then your commentary, line by line
“This States clearly that the individual Christian has NO right to interpret scripture apart from those men whom God has chosen to speak through (i.e. the Apostles).”
The first part of your statement is true. The second part is not. The verse does not say: “No prophecy of Scripture is a matter for private interpretation, EXCEPT for the Apostles.” The verse clearly says: “NO private interpretation” and there are no provisions included thereafter for exceptions to the rule. Therefore, if NO prophecy of Scripture is a matter for PRIVATE interpretation, then how ARE we to interpret Scripture? When the Prophet Isaiah addressed the ‘Drunkards of Ephraim’, he dealt very specifically with their backsliding and even insulted their manner of dealing with the Word of YHWH.
“But the Word of YHWH was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little, that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” (Isaiah 28:13)
By insulting the methodology of the Ephraimites, we can see that Isaiah has pointed (in reverse) to the correct manner for comprehending the written Word. And since Ephraim was dithering, and dissecting, and contending piecemeal with the precepts of the Word, then we can reasonably conclude that Isaiah believed the opposite of their unmotivated and fragmented ways to be the correct path; i.e., Scripture is to be considered as a unified BODY. The singular members of the Body should not be considered apart from their fellows. All patterns in Scripture repeat, and we see the patterns of the written Word reflected in the patterns of the Body of Messiah. We see the pattern suggested by Isaiah repeated in the words of the Apostle Paul:
“If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were the hearing, where were the smelling? But now are they many members, yet one body.” (1 Corinthians 12:17, 20)
How is that any different from the BODY of the Word which we have inherited? It is no different at all. Moreover, we are told very clearly in Scripture what happens if NEW members are ADDED to the body, just as if NEW seed is ADDED to the field which the Son of Man did not sow. That added seed is called FALSE SEED.
Quoting you
“It Shows that even “fallible men” can be inspired by God to speak infallibly, but that this infallibility is NOT granted to the individual Christian, but only to qualified persons chosen by God, such as the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament, and the Apostles of the New Testament.”
It is true that fallible men were gifted to speak the words of YHWH through their written communication to form the volume of Scripture. Beyond that, we can say only that the answers to the questions which arise when we read Scripture, should always and only be answered by that same body of material. Contained within Scripture are all of the answers to our questions, at least those answers WHICH IT IS GIVEN us to know. YHWH has clearly told us that certain things will be withheld from us for a time, and that certain questions we might ask, though few, must remain unanswered yet for a time. However, since we have inherited a virtually limitless body of written material, does prudence not dictate that we first employ ourselves about the business of ABSORBING all of the material we have been given? And considering the fact that YHWH has already told us that HE DOES NOT CHANGE, and that relative to these Heavens and this Earth, HIS LAW will in no wise pass away, then HOW Servus, HOW are any of us even willing to entertain the POSSIBILITY of there being some outside source of information which contradicts what has plainly been written? How Servus, how are you adorning your body and your house and your Church with idols? Was YHWH unclear about idols? Did you see any exclusionary language included in His Statutes and Ordinances which states: “SOME idols I hate, but there are others I find to be just dandy.” No. He didn’t say that. He said IDOLS are abominable things. Note well the Heavens and the Earth still standing.
Did you see something included in the Statutes and the Ordinances of the Law which will in no wise pass away that gives you PERMISSION to observe the Sabbath on Sunday? And what does YHWH have to say about GRAVEYARDS and unclean remnants of human bodies? And yet every Catholic Church is right in the middle of an unclean grave yard, and Catholics are infatuated with the remains of their dead ‘saints.’
That’s what happens when you have been sold a bill of goods which teaches you that you must look ELSEWHERE for the answers contained within the very pages of Scripture.
First the verse
“And Phillip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: ‘Think you that you understand what you read?’ Who said: ‘And how can I, unless some man show me?’ And he desired Phillip that he would come up and sit with him….Then Phillip, opening his mouth, and beginning as this scripture, preached unto him Jesus.”—Acts 8:30-31; 35
And then your commentary
“It’s very revealing to notice what Phillip the Apostle did here. He saw a man reading Scripture and asked him, “Do you understand it?” The man replied, “How can I, unless some man show me?””
Let’s first state the obvious; the Ethiopian from Acts chapter 8 wasn’t reading any Scripture; he was reading the Book of Isaiah, which is notoriously one of the deeper books in the Bible. Nowhere in Scripture is it written that men should not receive HELP from other men with their Bible study and with their comprehension of the written Word. We are meant to be a Body with leaders, in a hierarchy which follows the patterns displayed for us by the Apostles in the New Testament. They had a hierarchy which included a teaching hierarchy – BUT AT NO TIME is it ever suggested that the teachers looked to ANY OTHER SOURCE for their teaching but the written Word, which they cherished and carried with them when they could. (2 Timothy 4:13)
You consistently pointing to bad behavior to justify other bad behavior is not beneficial to your predicament (i.e., ‘Protestants’ concocting their own interpretations vs. the Roman Rite doing the same). You suggest that the Protestants must not do what ROME alone, according to you (and Rome), has the right to do. I have consistently asked you to provide even the flimsiest of evidence which supports the claim that Rome has ANY right to interpret Scripture. The fact is, Rome has no such right. Rome CLAIMS the right, just as it CLAIMS the authority to switch days for Sabbath observance.
There is no authentic right to interpret Scripture outside of and beyond the Instructions we are given in the Body of writing we have inherited. ALL of the answers we need are contained within it, and nothing we need is lacking. Furthermore, all thinking men and women should be INSULTED by the suggestion that we are INCAPABLE of interpreting plainly-written words describing plainly-worded affairs. Rome dares to suggest that OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN was and is incapable of making His intention known to His people. Just as Rome would have us to believe that our MESSIAH’S Sacrifice was insufficient and must be REPEATED WEEKLY, Rome dares to suggest that THEY ALONE possess the power which YHWH LACKS. Rome says that YHWH CANNOT DO HIS JOB without THEIR HELP. He who subscribes to the offspring of LIES birthed by the Catholic Church has only himself to blame. To believe what Rome is selling is to believe a never-ending string of INSULTS leveled against the Most High and His Messiah.
“Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”—St. Ignatius of Antioch 35-107AD
As early as the first century AD, bishops were calling the Christian Church Catholic. Before the Protestant Revolt, there were no other churches but the One and only Church founded by Our Lord.
Referring to the Bible as “plainly-written words” serves only to demean the word of God. Apparently, Christians CANNOT interpret them properly or else we WOULD ALL BE ON THE SAME PAGE! Instead, we are at each others throats because EVERYBODY believes that HIS interpretation is correct and the other guy’s is not. 40,000+ denominations added to EVERY individual Christian with an opinion creates an atmosphere for perfect chaos. That’s not what Christ intended. That is why He left us an arbiter to settle such disputes as would inevitably arise within the Christian community concerning some matter of doctrine. We Catholics call it the Magisterium (Pope speaking “ex cathedra” and the bishops united to him as successors to the apostles).
If the Bible were all that was necessary, then we would have to suppose that Christians living BEFORE the Bible as we know it existed would have been damned. But this of course was not the case. In an age without printing presses, Christians relied primarily on the clergy to pass on the teachings of Christ. The Apostles are His appointed teachers in His stead; the Bible is a teaching apparatus. Period.
The Bible is God’s book. Not yours or mine. We do not have the right to interpret it any way we choose because He did not give us that right. This right was given to the Apostles alone, which they in turn gave to their successors. We MAY interpret Scripture in our personal spiritual life, BUT our interpretation must NEVER be placed above the objective interpretation made by the Magisterium because the Magisterium speaks from God.
I would not be so quick to cry “arrogance” against the Magisterium when you yourself are full of the same. Usurping the power of authority from where it belongs and keeping it for yourself. That, fundamentally, is what Protestantism is all about; the rejection of Church authority in favor one’s OWN pretended authority.
I say that God inspires the Magisterium of the Church because it’s only logical; it’s only scriptural, its; only historical; it’s only practical; it’s only what the early Christians believed. You say that God inspires YOU because you don’t want to listen to anybody but yourself.
I have 2,000 years of Christianity to back my claims. You have only your own opinion, based on your own understanding of a book that wasn’t officially assembled in one volume until 393 AD when the Church of Rome, which you hate so much, decided under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which of the various books and epistles in circulation were authentic and which ones were not.
You are trying to refute the Church by using a book that essentially came FROM the Church.
Such an attempt will ultimately fail.
With as much respect as possible,
good night.
“Apparently, Christians CANNOT interpret them properly or else we WOULD ALL BE ON THE SAME PAGE!”
We would all be on the same page if we all believed in the Word of YHWH. Anything we take with us into the pages of Scripture will throw darkness onto our path and will obscure the Light of the World. Each of us is responsible for his own shortcomings and misinterpretations when reading Scripture. Faith in YHWH means waiting for Him to direct and to teach. Ask and it shall be given – knock and it will be opened. Just as when you knock on the gilded door of an opulent cathedral… someone will always answer. Take care what door you knock on, Servus.
“This right (of Scripture interpretation) was given to the Apostles alone, which they in turn gave to their successors.”
This is the very lie upon which the Catholic Church stands. It is a lie that any such authority was given to ANYONE. If this simple premise were actually looked at and examined by all Catholics, St. Peter’s Basilica will literally turn to dust and collapse into a heap just like towers One, Two, and Seven. Claiming the ‘right’ you describe is tantamount to stealing from the Almighty. Woe unto any who steal from Him.
“We MAY interpret Scripture in our personal spiritual life…”
Yet another lie which brazenly contradicts the plainly-worded verses of Scripture.
“I would not be so quick to cry “arrogance” against the Magisterium when you yourself are full of the same. Usurping the power of authority from where it belongs and keeping it for yourself.”
I’m not a teacher, Servus. I’m a nothing commenter on a nothing website. I claim no authority for myself. And I RENOUNCE all claims to ANY Heavenly authority made by Rome. Rome could have no power except it were granted from on High, but the animating spirit behind the Vatican is the crooked serpent himself. Look up the meaning of ‘basilica’ for God’s sake. Look up the meaning of ‘Vatican’ for God’s sake. You are CLOTHED with the vestments of Belial and you are NAMED AFTER HIM.
“That, fundamentally, is what Protestantism is all about; the rejection of Church authority in favor one’s OWN pretended authority.”
I’m not a Protestant, Servus. I’m not even a Christian. You have no idea what I am, because if you did, you would immediately cease from calling yourself a Catholic. Your worship is STOLEN. Your prayers are STOLEN. Your love for the Most High and His Son is STOLEN. It is stolen by the thieves who enter not by the Door, but climb up some other way, for to steal and to kill and to destroy.
“I say that God inspires the Magisterium of the Church because it’s only logical; it’s only scriptural, its; only historical; it’s only practical; it’s only what the early Christians believed.”
You are deceived. You don’t know what logic is. You don’t know what practicality is. You don’t know history. And you don’t know Scripture.
“You say that God inspires YOU because you don’t want to listen to anybody but yourself.”
Anyone who says that I have EVER claimed to be inspired by the Spirit is a liar. I listen for my Master’s voice, forsaking ALL others. And if ever this is not true, then I walk in error during the time it is not true.
“I have 2,000 years of Christianity to back my claims.”
You have smoke and sand. You have the traditions of men upon which to rest your fatuous beliefs and your claims; and nothing more. You have the dazzling architecture and the flying buttresses of stone masonry to hypnotize your vision. You have gold and silver and rubies. You have stained glass. You have diamonds and silk and scarlet and purple. You have a golden cup. And you should be fleeing into the mountains from all of it.
“You are trying to refute the Church by using a book that essentially came FROM the Church.”
And didn’t it? And wasn’t it so that the church would once KILL YOU if they caught you reading the Scriptures? You tell me if you dare – do I lie? Then after that, the church FORBADE reading the Old Testament? Am I a liar? The Bible could not be contained by Rome, so they set Martin Luther loose to corral as many ‘escapees’ as possible. Protestantism is part of the same religion as Catholicism. Hinduism, Buddhism, Kabbalah, New Age… all a part of the same Religion of Babylon. There is but ONE religion in this world, Servus. Doubt it not.
“Such an attempt will ultimately fail.”
Let only YHWH Elohim be true, and let all men be a liar. May our Father in Heaven bring us strength for perseverance, and for clarity of vision. May our Father in Heaven guide us and direct us in all of our paths. This we ask in the Name of Yehoshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ), Savior of Mankind, Son of the Most High Sovereign Creator of the Heavens and the Earth.
Final Response to BEEF SUPREME:
You are very misguided indeed. You have called truth a lie and lies true. You have denied the necessity of God-given authority, which only produces spiritual anarchy. Evidence of my position is all around us, for those whose hearts are earnestly seeking the Truth.
I am certain that you were only hoping to catch me in a trap. To put forth a question that I could not answer. You have failed. For I declare for all with ears to hear that the Catholic Church is irrefutable, indestructible, and infallible because it came from God and it is God Who sustains it, no matter how badly we mortals try to undermine it. I repeat again, 2,000 years of history, logic, the blood of martyrs, the testimony of miracles and saints, the miraculous preservation of the Church against even the most violent of persecutions, and even the whole of scripture and salvation history itself all attest to the Church’s validity.
All shall one day stand before the judgement throne of Almighty God and in that moment it shall be made eternally clear to everyone, both the just and the wicked (whichever we are),
that the CATHOLIC CHURCH was right all along…..
The following will seem like cheap words to you, but I mean them sincerely. That I should like to be in Heaven with you someday, and that as a Christian, I love you. You are more to me than simply an avatar on a website who often attacks my Faith. You are a soul, created in the image and likeness of a Being so Good and Loving that He sent His Only Begotten Son to die for your sins (and mine) on the cross; a Being so Loving that He willed not to abandon His followers to their own ideas and prejudices after His Ascension, but left behind the Church to continue spreading His infinite love. In spite of our marked differences and heated squabbles, at the end of the day what matters to me is the salvation of ALL souls. This salvation comes from God and it is the Church through which it is conveyed.
It is my Catholic Faith alone which enables me to love even those who hate and mock and despise me for the very same. It’s the reason I get up in the morning; the reason I have the strength to do just about anything at all in life. Frankly, it’s the only reason I even bother with this crazy website. Such strength can come only from Jesus, so no one can tell me that the Catholic Church doesn’t have Jesus. He is fully present with us in every tabernacle in every Catholic church in the world.
I could probably go on forever but you must be bored with me by now. May these next words ring forever in the minds of all who read this:
The CATHOLIC CHURCH was right all along….
Servus Mariae,
“I am certain that you were only hoping to catch me in a trap.”
You are certain of many things, Servus. This is just another on the list. True, it would be satisfying to me to be the one to show you any error of your ways, but I’ve been at this task long enough now to know that’s not how things work. If your mind and your heart are locked in, then they’re locked in. One of the many hazards we are apt to encounter in the wilderness is the Swamp of Confirmation Bias.
The reason I engage in these conversations is to demonstrate to any others reading these words the futility of all errant doctrine, most specifically Catholic doctrine. As a man once poised to begin training to become a Jesuit Priest, I know a little bit about these things. I myself was once a Catholic. It was only once I became familiar with the written Word that I began to see clearly the extent to which Rome labors to warp and to deform the Word to suit its purposes. I would love to be the one to show you the truth of this matter, but that’s really just vanity in me talking, and arrogance on my behalf. YHWH alone is capable of turning the wandering foot. I am capable of no such thing.
And before I forget, you signed off last night by saying ‘with as much respect as possible…’ I give you my word that I have respect for you, Servus. I see the sincerity with which you devote your energies and your time to our Father in Heaven. I see you doing what you believe to be the correct things by way of service to Him. You think that service to Mary is actually service to Messiah and to His Father. I believe you are convinced. It is your sincerity and your intentions which I respect. I have no animosity or malice for you personally. All of my disdain is intended for the institution you have chosen to represent, and none of it is intended for you. Because you stand between the institution and my malice, I am well aware of what it must be like for you to contend with me as you are now doing on this board. But please do bear in mind that I too am sincere, and that I am serving my Master and His Father by the manner I believe to be correct. If I am in error and you stand in turth, then you owe me your understanding and your pity. But if I am correct and you are in error (consider only the possibility for a moment), then you may see that I have no interest in catching you in a trap. I believe you are already IN a trap, and that with my stern words against your beloved church I might be able to stir you to another view of things; and if not you than another reading these words, which others occasionally make known to me their presence as well as their thoughts.
“That I should like to be in Heaven with you someday, and that as a Christian, I love you.”
I do not doubt your sincerity in this, and I would ask you to consider the sentiment as mutual. Once again, I see your effort and your energies, believing I know the One you seek to honor.
“It is my Catholic Faith alone which enables me to love even those who hate and mock and despise me for the very same.”
We are forbidden to hate, even our enemies. And I do not consider you an enemy, Servus. I don’t mince words when I am at ‘work’ on these boards, and I don’t temper my statements to make anything easier on those who take the time to read what I write. I do as I do because I believe what I believe, and not because I have any hatred for you or for any other. I hate Rome because I believe I can see her clearly for what she is. I know what I have seen. I know what our Father has taught me. I know what my considerable studies have shown me.
“Such strength can come only from Jesus, so no one can tell me that the Catholic Church doesn’t have Jesus.”
Sure they can. Despite your being a member of the Catholic community, Messiah could be standing right beside you even if you and all of the Catholic faithful are wrong, just as He can stand beside me in my pursuit of Him (while I pursue) even if I am wrong. Knowing the fullness of all things as He does, Messiah can be with you or with me in any event. He knows how the matters of this world will turn out in the end, whereas you and I do not.
For taking the time to engage me in this forum Servus, I give you my thanks and you have my respect. I am not your enemy. If my being in opposition to Rome makes me your enemy, then I completely understand and accept that fact for what it is. I don’t do what I do in an effort to mislead anyone. But I am well cognizant of that admonition of the Apostle James which tells us those who take it upon themselves to ‘teach’ may well end up being handed a bill for the crime of spreading false doctrine. That is why I am not a teacher – because I am afraid of misleading others to their judgment, or worse.
I won’t pursue you across these boards from now on, Servus. I might interject commentary here or there occasionally, but it will not be with the air of challenge the way I have opposed you up until now. You have now met me on the field of debate, and you have done a fine job of explaining the reasons for your beliefs as well as offering a thoughtful defense of my indictments. Let that be where the matter rests, for now. And may Messiah continue to guide us both in our quests for His Truth. One way or another Servus, I see you as a spiritual warrior. The Refiner’s Fire will prove us both, just as it will all things.
In Messiah Yehoshua’s Name,
Jed Bozza,
Princeton, New Jersey
Kudos to both of you for civil discourse on things that matter
.