The Rapture, Then Hell On Earth
This is a bible study to comfort those troubled by the present world events and the darkness of the political evils.
Pastor Joseph Chambers / Paw Creek Ministries
Sometimes it looks like the great tribulation is already here. The Holy Bible is perfect, “the rapture will, without question, occur before those seven horrible years.” If you do not believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture there is no comfort I have from the Bible to give you. “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.” (1Cor. 15:19) Our Comfort is in His eternal presence.
Things you will learn in this study:
1. The Book of Genesis is absolute and literal.
2. The Ark and the flood was a model picture of the Pre-tribulation Rapture.
3. The judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah was also a type of the Rapture.
4. The daily tribulation we presently endure and the Great Tribulation are totally different.
5. God’s saints are loved and never made to suffer wrath with the wicked.
6. Jesus came to save and deliver His Church from the final wrath and judgment.
7. How could Jesus take His saints for His Bride after His wrath has bashed the life out of them?
8. The Rapture of the saints before the “Hell On Earth” is bedrock truth.
There is no truth more fixed and dependable than God’s faithfulness. His saints, redeemed by the Blood of His Son, Jesus Christ, are His delight. We are not just His servants; we are His friends and the future Bride of his Son. We are plainly instructed by the Apostle Paul that we are joint heirs with Jesus Christ. “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:15-17) “Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32)
Understanding His faithfulness and knowing that we are “heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ are foundational truths for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The wrath of God has never been directed against His chosen that find grace in His presence. Not one Scripture in the Word of God places the righteous and the unholy together under a display of the Father’s wrath. From the worship of Cain and Abel in Genesis chapter 4, God always makes a distinction between obedience and disobedience. God accepted Abel’s worship and rejected Cain’s bloodless sacrifice and the manifestation of God’s Spirit in accepting Abel’s worship left no doubt. Holy Justice can never condemn the righteous for the deeds of the wicked. This is a principle that underlies every revelation of the Holy Bible.
The Differences Between Tribulation and Wrath! … “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33) It is probably unfortunate that we use the same word tribulation for the normal experiences of every Biblical saint with the period the Scripture calls the “Great Tribulation.” There is a total difference between the “much tribulation” that Luke wrote about in Acts and the “Great Tribulation” that Jesus spoke about as recorded in Matthew. Luke stated, “Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:22) Matthew recorded Jesus’ words as following, “And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:19-22) The difference is extremely clear.
The word tribulation embodies the idea of pressure and trouble. There are clearly many different levels of this pressure or trouble throughout the Scriptures. Jesus Christ experienced incredible pressure and sorrows in His crisis of death. The tribulation of His sorrows in behalf of our redemption is the basis of why He said, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome” (already defeated) those tribulations. The tribulation that the Son of God experienced for us, but that we still face by faith in Him is not the wrath of God but the wrath of the world. This pressure that Satan and the world under his control bring to bear has no kinship to the pressure of God’s wrath directed toward the wicked and Satan’s crowd.
When you simply translate the word tribulation by its distinctive meaning of pressure and trouble, it clears up the confusion that many people have assigned to this subject. As Luke wrote in Acts, we enter into the Kingdom of God by much pressure and trouble. The world is not a friend to the saints of God. “We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.” (II Corinthians 4:8-11) These tribulations or pressures that we bear make mature saints out of us as we trust in Him and die to our own selves.
The “Great Tribulation” is a distinctive time of pressure and trouble directed towards a population that is infested with sin: that has rejected the revelations of Jesus Christ. It is also planned as tribulation or pressure against the hordes of hell or Satan and his fallen angels. While our tribulation or pressure produces redemption of the saints, this future tribulation or pressure produces the redemption of the earth and God’s cosmos. This makes it clear why the same word is used. In both cases, it is redemption that is produced by the pressure of tribulation.
read more at Paw Creek Ministries:
http://www.pawcreek.org/open-bible-dialog/the-rapture-then-hell-on-earth
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Whistler Blowers, Insiders
Do we have to have the Rapture, can’t we go straight to Hell on Earth
Pretribulation rapture – scripturally incorrect.
Appreciate your most thorough exegesis on the subject, and I know, when a renowned theologian like CatHunter speaks on BIN, all Christendom must rethink the truths of the ages, though, frankly, your argument does leave so many nagging questions,
http://lamblion.com/articles/articles_rapture7.php
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html
http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj13i.pdf
http://www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/article/rapture/rapture.htm
/religion/2013/09/a-cosmic-jewish-wedding-the-rapture-update-2456100.html
Pretrib rapture — scripturally correct.
http://www.fether.net/refuting-slander-against-the-pre-trib-rapture/
The reason I don’t believe in the rapture is because it gives people false hope that they will escape the coming tribulation. Why would God take some saints now and leave some to suffer what’s ahead for the rest of mankind. It just doesn’t fly with me.
Clearly you didn’t read my article at the link I provided. It refutes all the false charges against the pre-trib rapture.
Of course, with am123 running around making sure everybody knows that I’m “serving Satan’s purposes”, I can understand why you’d be afraid to read my writings.
Don’t blame me HumanBeing. You are free to make your case. But don’t expect me to agree with you on this issue because you don’t have a Scriptural leg to stand upon.
Yes, am123, I’ve given many scriptures in support of my view. Just because you disagree doesn’t mean you’re right.
But at least I don’t go around saying you’re serving Satan’s purposes… even though the idea of Jesus keeping his promise to take his Bride to his Father’s house is something Satan certainly hates.
God will judge between us, and you will know Whom I serve.
Why does it bother you so much HB that I believe the pre-trib rapture theory is a doctrine of demons? It wouldn’t have one iota of an effect on you if you stood upon the truth. But the fact that it bothers you so much should raise a red flag for you. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is convicting you. Not because you belong to the Devil, but because you are being misled on the rapture issue.
How can you even ask that question, am123?
And you go on…
“if you stood upon the truth”
“should raise a red flag for you”
“Perhaps the Holy Spirit is convicting you”
“you are being misled”
Wow. You’ve become more judgmental and egotistical than all the bots at BIN.
Well, can you answer the question why does it bother you so much that I believe the pre-trib rapture theory is a doctrine of demons that serves Satan’s purposes?
“why does it bother you so much that I believe the pre-trib rapture theory is a doctrine of demons that serves Satan’s purposes?”
Seriously? You can’t figure this out? Wow… so I’ll say it for the hundredth time then, but no more.
Ready?
Listening?
When you say that PTR is a doctrine of demons, you are saying that everyone who teaches it (including me) is knowingly spreading demonic teachings and serving Satan.
Am I going too fast?
Too many big words?
I have to ask those things because you don’t ever seem to listen or understand. You are slandering and insulting thousands and thousands of people.
I have told you over and over and over and over again, that PTR DOES NOT KEEP PEOPLE FROM BEING PREPARED. But you don’t listen.
I have told you over and over and over and over again, that IT IS NOT OUR OWN STRENGTH that matters, but only our walk with God through the Holy Spirit. SO IF YOU RELY ON YOUR OWN STRENGTH AND PREPPING, YOU ARE SETTING YOURSELF (and thousands of other people) TO FAIL.
Now leave me alone, Slanderer.
“When you say that PTR is a doctrine of demons, you are saying that everyone who teaches it (including me) is knowingly spreading demonic teachings and serving Satan.”
To the contrary, I think you do it unknowingly.
And “Now leave me alone” you say? You’re the one who brought up my name up to engineer.
You don’t even understand the difference between talking ABOUT someone and talking TO someone.
There is no pretrib rapture. It is NOT scriptural. It is a misunderstanding of the scriptures that say that the last of the annointed 144,000 will be taken after being converted into spirit creatures to heaven. It’s at last count, about 6000 people. I don’t believe in it because it is not scruptural. It is a doctrine of Satan as am123 mentions.
HB;
I don’t believe that you know what the bride of Christ is. It is the 144,000 annointed sons of God. The only ones to ever go to heaven from Earth, besides Jesus.
There is no pretrib rapture. It is NOT scriptural. It is a misunderstanding of the scriptures that say that the last of the annointed 144,000 will be taken after being converted into spirit creatures to heaven. It’s at last count, about 6000 people.
Hey moron John Rolls so you do evil and you can’t help it (Romans 7:17) – It ain’t me doing my evil deeds, that is sin in my flesh. Child of Hell John Rolls, I want to do good but I don’t know how, I do evil (Romans 7:19). Idiot Rolls how is it your master kept all of God’s law? Philippians 3:5-6 … as touching the law I am a Pharisee. As touching the righteousness that is in the law, blameless.
All Hell on earth after rapture
, who teaches Rapture, the evil anti-Christ Paul and his convert mouths the lie. Rolls doesn’t know Christ, who speaks truth:
Matthew 13:41 Christ shall send forth his angels who shall remove all evil people from the earth
Matthew 5:5 The meek shall inherit the earth
So how can that be Peter in 1 & 2 Peter declaring the earth & everything in it will be burned up when Christ taught Peter the above
FORGERIES, 1 & 2 Peter are forgeries of the Pharisees.
Too hard for the dopes to believe that bibles are not all the word of God. The Pharisees in 325 AD invented a book cover title, placed the lying gospel of Pharisee Paul, Peter forgeries and lying Luke and Mark and James and Jude with the gospel of Christ, Torah and Tanakh and said, this is all the word of God. THERE IS NO agreement between Christ and the anti-Christ. The moron Christians are sent on a hunt for the son of perdition and the anti-Christ by anti-Christ Paul and Christ & John say they both already appeared
The son of perdition is Judas Iscariot (John 17:12). And 1 John 2:18 You have heard that the anti-Christ shall come and now there are many anti-Christs.
OK, The party is at this mans house tonight.
Is it me, or anyone who disagrees with this man is a child of Hell.
C’mon man, Ok, I hear it coming, engineer, you child of h….
Evil antichrist Paul? Are you insane? St. Paul was a splendid saint — evangelist, prophet and martyr of God. If brains were electricity, PHARISEES.ORG couldn’t light a one-watt bulb. PO — nothing more than whacked out wind-bags.
Temper temper.
From the article:
“The Rapture, Then Hell On Earth”
From the Bible:
“Hell on Earth, then the Rapture”
Who should we believe then, the author of this article, or the Apostle Paul (see 2 Thessalonians 2:3)?
Jesus was extremely adamant about warning us not to be deceived in the end times (the times in which we live):
“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.”
—Matthew 24:4
“For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.”
—Matthew 24:5
“And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.”
—Matthew 24:11
“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
—Matthew 24:24
Jesus was talking to the final generation, the one that sees His return.
We know from the Scriptures that the antichrist will come with his great magic to deceive people. We also know that anyone who is deceived and receives the mark of the beast will suffer the full wrath of God and will end up in the lake of fire. So it is vital not to be deceived. Hence, we get repeated warnings from Jesus and the Apostles to not allow ourselves to be deceived.
So I ask this of those Christians truly seeking truth:
If Jesus is going to rapture the Church out of here before the antichrist comes upon the scene, why then did He warn us so adamantly about being deceived? If Christians aren’t going to be around for the great deception there would be no reason to warn them so adamantly about it.
The truth of the matter is this: Jesus warned us because we WILL be here during the time of the beast, for Jesus prayed this to the Father:
“I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”
—John 17:15
The truth is our faith must be strong. We must be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil and his cohorts. It is only by the precious blood of Jesus and the words of our testimony that gives us victory over the Devil.
If your faith is not firm, you will not be able to stand until the end. And only those who endure until the end are saved:
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
—Matthew 24:13
Therefore it is imperative that you study the Scriptures for yourself. Read, pray, and meditate upon the Scriptures. Search the Scriptures diligently and do not rely on what others say.
It would do Christians of today well to consider what Isaac Newton said concerning the importance of Christians knowing the end time prophecies. Newton drew a parallel between how the learned Jews missed the first coming of the Messiah because they were deceived and how it will be no less possible for Christians to be deceived by the antichrist. Newton said if God was angry with the Jews for not searching more diligently into the prophecies which He had given them to know Christ by, why should we think He will excuse us for not searching into the prophecies which He has given us to know the antichrist by, for surely it must be as easy for Christians to be deceived by the antichrist as it was for the Jews to reject Christ, Newton postulated, saying it is as much our duty to endeavor to be able to know the antichrist and avoid him as it was the duty of the Jews to know Christ and to follow Him.
The study of eschatology should be no small matter to Christians today. But sadly, many Christians today are indifferent and apathetic to eschatology because of this false belief that they won’t be here when all hell literally breaks loose, and so they are severely ill-prepared for what is about to happen and therefore in grave danger.
The pre-trib rapture theory serves Satan’s purposes greatly, for the many warnings of Jesus have fallen on millions of deaf ears because so many have fallen for this deception.
There is no rapture. That’s a teaching of man and not God. It’s made up by man made religions/churches.
Well, those of you who gave a negative vote to my comment, show me the word “rapture” in the accurate translation of the scriptures. The fact that the word does NOT appear in the scriptures proves that it’s a teaching of man, and not of God.
Concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 to not let any man deceive you in any way, for that day (the rapture) will not come until there comes a falling away FIRST and the Antichrist is revealed. So Paul said that the Antichrist will come first and then the Day of Jesus Christ, or rapture, comes after that. Those who teach about a pre-tribulation rapture teach that the rapture comes first and then the Antichrist comes, which is the exact opposite of the order of events that Paul teaches.
Jesus presents the same order of events as Paul does in the parable of the weeds (Matthew 13:24-30) and the explanation of it (Matthew 13:36-43), where the weeds (the bad guys in the tribulation) are pulled up first and then the wheat (the Church) is gathered. No matter how you cut it, a pre-tribulation rapture contradicts this parable.
Man, I can’t let this one go, for the sake of others…
2 Thes. 2:3 says, “…asserting that THE DAY OF THE LORD has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for THAT DAY…”
What day?
The Day of the Lord.
NOT…. THE… RAPTURE…
I recommend that people read these scriptures for themselves and not rely upon how others twist them. Be a Berean; check it yourself and don’t rely upon second-hand assertions. Especially don’t listen to me, since I’ve been judged a minion of Satan.
“I recommend that people read these scriptures for themselves and not rely upon how others twist them.”
Indeed. Here is what Paul said, let everyone read it for themselves:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
—2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
In verse 1, Paul introduces the subject he is talking about, the coming of the Lord where we are gathered to be with him (the Second Coming). In verse 2, Paul calls it “the day of Christ”. And in verse 3, he says let no one deceive you, for THAT DAY will not come except that the antichrist comes on the scene first. So the day of Christ, the day Paul is talking about here, cannot come before the antichrist is revealed.
Again, for the sake of others:
Paul is writing to calm and reassure the people of Thessalonica after they received a forgery saying that the Day of the Lord had already come. He begins by saying, “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him”; this is how he seques from his opening greetings to the business at hand. Then he clearly states that the false teaching is that THE DAY OF THE LORD has already come.
The people were AFRAID.
Afraid of missing the Tribulation? Hardly.
Afraid they missed out on proving themselves? Ridiculous.
Being comforted with the thought of suffering the wrath of God? Asenine.
Their fear tells us that they thought they had missed “our being gathered to him” and would now have to endure the wrath of God.
This error is exactly what the PTR haters teach: that we will endure the wrath of God. And instead of “comforting each other with these words”, these haters disturb people with their words of doom and wrath… exactly like the forgers did.
This, folks, is how scripture gets so twisted: by not paying attention to the context or reading carefully. Think about why the people were afraid, and what should comfort them. That is the key to the passage.
“Their fear tells us that they thought they had missed “our being gathered to him””
Yes, and so Paul told them the gathering together with Him will not take place until the antichrist comes on the scene first.
So is it your contention that in the following verse, Paul is saying that “that day” will come first and then the antichrist comes?
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away
first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”
2 Thessalonians 2:3
“So is it your contention that in the following verse, Paul is saying that “that day” will come first and then the antichrist comes?”
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo. How can anyone so badly misunderstand what other people write?
(rhetorical question, as there is no communicating with such people, esp. when they keep mocking and slandering anyone who disagrees with them)
“How can anyone so badly misunderstand what other people write?”
When you do not make yourself clear.
Is it your position that the gathering together with Jesus that Paul is talking about is not the rapture?
FLAT OUT ERROR IN HUMANBEINGs ESCHATOLOGY:
Either HumanBeing is trying to pull a fast one here or whatever, but if anyone is searching out this matter about the timing of the rapture, look at the contradiction in HB’s account of things:
Up above, you will see that regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, HumanBeing said ““Their fear tells us that they thought they had missed “our being gathered to him””.
Fair enough. They thought they missed the rapture.
So read verse 3 and you see that Paul tells them that day (the day HB says they thought they missed) will not come except there is a falling away first and the antichrist is revealed. So the sequence is there is a falling away and the antichrist comes on the scene first, and then that day, the gathering (rapture), takes place after that.
The pre-trib scenario, which states the rapture comes first and then the antichrist is revealed, contradicts the sequence Paul gives us. So that is why I pressed HumanBeing on the matter to get clarification on her position, asking if it was her contention that the day Paul is speaking about comes first and then the antichrist comes. Here response was:
“Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo. How can anyone so badly misunderstand what other people write?”
Well, it is very easy to misunderstand HB’s position because the sequence she talks about doesn’t fit Scripture and she contradicts what she says here in this thread with what she says on her blog. I went to her site she provided the link to in this thread and found this regarding the falling away (also known as the departure) that is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3:
“Recalling the first letter, this Departure can be nothing else but what we call The Rapture, the “snatching away” of the righteous dead and living which happens before the Day of the Master.”
http://bible.fether.net/index.php?book=14&pager=co
So, over on her blog, HumanBeing says that the falling away, or departure, in verse 3 below refers to the rapture:
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition”
—2 Thessalonians 2:3
But here in this thread, HumanBeing says the day that Paul is talking about, the day the Thessalonians thought they missed out on (the rapture), is the day Paul is talking about in verse 3 above.
You can’t have it both ways HumanBeing, which is it?
The rapture is not some secret, poof-out-of-nowhere event. In Luke 17:30-31, Jesus talks about the day the Son of Man is revealed and says that if someone is on the roof, he should not go down into the house to get his goods. Or if someone is in the field, he should not go back into their house to get their goods. If the rapture is this mysterious event where “poof”, everyone is gone in an instant, then there would be no thought process that they could go back into their house to get their goods.
A handy list of links to my thoughts on prophecy, to whoever would like to read them.
http://www.fether.net/index.php?page=refuting-slander-against-the-pre-trib-rapture/
http://www.fether.net/bible-prophecy-past-or-future/
http://www.fether.net/2002/01/01/2002-01-01-who-is-mystery-babylon/
http://www.fether.net/prophecycondensed/ (now writing this in book form)
http://www.fether.net/2012/04/20/end-times-bible-prophecy-summary/
http://www.fether.net/2011/09/22/the-mark-of-the-beast/
And http://bible.fether.net/index.php?pager=co where you can read my thoughts on every NT book.
1 Peter 4:17 KJV
judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us
Now if the JUDGEMENT is to START with the Church as shown Rev… (7 churches)
Parable of the 10 Virgins.. are derived from the condemnations and praises ( 7 Churches)= The reward is to be WITH ME (GOD). in Heaven.
After the 4th Chapter of Revelation there is NO more mention of the word CHURCH So logic concludes that something has happened !!
The scriptures and the symbols line up together with the PTR view IMHO heard all the arguments, Show me (the word) Church after the 4th chapter and not Tribulation Saints.
Its NOT there because the CHURCH is NOT in the Tribulation period also known as the time of Jacobs trouble ie Isreal
“Show me (the word) Church after the 4th chapter and not Tribulation Saints.”
This is one of the most foolish arguments from pre-tribbers, as if Jesus Himself, the head of the Church, isn’t mentioned in Revelation. How silly is that? And are not the apostles members of the Church?
“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
—REV 21:4
It is the Church who will rule and reign with Jesus during the Millennium (see REV 20:4) and it is the Church who will rule and reign with Jesus for all time to come (see REV 22:5). And the 2 witnesses and the manchild are members of the Church.
Why would a believer pretend that the saints in Revelation are not members of the Church? Daniel spoke about the time period we are about to enter and he said the Antichrist will wage war against the saints and overcome them until the Ancient of Days pronounces judgment in favor of the saints and then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the saints, and they shall retain it forever and ever and ever! Hallelujah! Oh, but pre-tribbers don’t believe that these saints that Daniel speaks of are the Church. John also spoke of this time, that the Antichrist will overcome the saints (Revelation 13:7) and the saints will rule and reign with Jesus for all time to come! Hallelujah! But no, pre-tribbers don’t believe the saints in the Book of Revelation are the Church. Let it happen then as you believe!
Agree again, CT. Not until AFTER the Tribulation is over do we see Rev. talk about us returning from heaven. Some people seem unable to understand when the Trib. starts and when it ends, and that the church is mentioned both before and after it in Rev. Not all of Rev. is about the Tribulation, as we know, but others don’t seem to know.
Neither do they understand that since Jesus said that the gates of hell would not conquer his church, then the saints being overcome by the Antichrist cannot be part of the church.
And the reason for their confusion is that they do not accept the scriptural teaching that Israel is not the church, and all saints are not the church, since saints also preceded the church. They get very, very confused and twist a lot of different contexts together. And it’s pretty much impossible to untangle the knots.
“then the saints being overcome by the Antichrist cannot be part of the church”
Jesus was talking about His disciples when He said:
“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.”
—Matthew 24:9
But even though some will be killed for the sake of Christ, they will not be overcome, for they shall rise to life and rule and reign with Christ.
I really don’t know how scripture could be any clearer, Crazy times. It clearly teaches, as you said, that we’re not Israel, we have suffered in this life, and we have died and risen with Christ. As “a new creation” the moment we’re saved, we can no more re-acquire our old self any more than Jesus could go back to the cross. It even says point-blank that we “are not appointed to wrath”, and Rev. even has one of the churches being “kept out of the hour of trial to come upon the whole earth, to test those living on the earth”. It can’t be any clearer.
The whole “PTR is demonic” slander comes from the belief that being PTR means we don’t have the Holy Spirit to get us through tough times… as if none of us have had any tough times before. Those who rely on their prepping are not prepared at all, since the only way to get through it will be by the grace of God. I seriously doubt that any of them can cite their “prepping” as something that would even prepare them for the kinds of suffering happening to Christians in the world right now. We either walk in the flesh or we walk in the Spirit, and if the Spirit, then we’re already prepped.
But they just… don’t… get it. They think the trib. is all about them, when scripture clearly says it’s about Israel and the unbelieving Gentiles. They only cite, and twist, the verses they like, and ignore the ones about being kept out of the hour of trial… kept OUT, not THROUGH. It’s a waste of time trying to talk to them. That’s why I just list links to my articles, so if they truly want explanations they can have them.
Hi HB I took the time to go through those articles, all good, would recommend them to anyone, Yes’ it’s clear,what comes to my mind is Luke as per below, We are told to look up at the BEGINNING not in the middle or the END of the Trib , quite clear.
(Luke 21:28) tells us, “when theses things BEGIN to happen, look up and
lift up your heads, because your redemption (rescue) draws near.” Luke 21:20 – 28
The above Scriptures are telling us that the ‘great tribulation’ BEGINS in
Israel while ‘The Church’ is still on earth, and then AFTER our ‘redemption’
(rapture) the ‘great tribulation’ spreads to the rest of the whole world.
This means that “our redemption” occurs SOON AFTER “these
things”, which are told as ‘signs’ to ‘watch’ for before our redemption
“begin to happen”.
“These things” that are the ‘signs’ which we are told to ‘watch’ for
are given to us beginning with:
First: (Luke 21:20) tells us that, “when you see Jerusalem surrounded by
armies, then you will know its desolation is near.”
Jacobs trouble is now very near so that mean’s…Look up
Thanks, CT
Not to come off as all smug or haughty… if a person does not believe in the pre-trib rapture, then he’s probably not spiritually ready for that ‘leap of faith’, and probably will not go when it occurs. This applies to people who say that they are Christians and also to everybody else as well.
It’s a pity when a true Christian does not believe in a pre-trib rapture. They will be ‘saved’, if they endure with Christ through the tribulation, but they will lose their place in the Bride of Christ. They will effectively be demoted and will be with the class of all others that endured through the tribulation: saved. Not a bad place to be, in the scope of things. Thank Jesus for that. It’s just not a Bride of Christ position. Jesus likes it when we are watching and waiting. Just saying.
These judgements are against the church some are promised heaven as a destination others thrown into the Tribulation who become the Tribulation saints,they do NOT get the same reward) here’s the 10 virgins divided .
How many do churchianity, so many ,i have friends who do this and friends who are born again watchers there’s a big difference between them i can tell you , I see the 10 virgin in this manner as its plain to see who is alert watching, and who is playing churchianity.
The Bible DOES NOT SAY that a rapture will occur before the Tribulation. It actually states there is no rapture. Only evil carrying its course until the Lord returns to gather His ELECT because the Tribulation OCCURRED already.
The rapture theory IS a lie.
All those teaching it may not knowingly be teaching false doctrine but they are deceived and teaching lies none the less.
When two are in the field working and one is taken they are taken by the deception unto destruction and the other is left working in the field awaiting the return of the true Christ, not following Satan (Antichrist) as he appears first proclaiming he is God.
Slandering and insulting thousands and thousands of people is not the intention, hoping they see the truth and avoid condemnation is!
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Is an oxymoron, a contradiction of terms. Comparing the violent destruction of Earth with a thief in the night. A thief in the night is silent, invisible until the morning, not loud and destructively hot melting the elements. When you wake up in the morning and discover you’ve had a thief in the night, v’s not waking up at all despite great noise and heat?… Obviously written by a complete moron.
The concept of literally being floated up into the sky as the Rapture is ridiculous. How would that work? The giant invisible fairy story character is going to get it’s giant invisible vacuum cleaner and suck up all the Christians… now that I would pay good money to see. Good riddance to bad rubbish, the meek inherit the Earth… Atheists.
Rapture = ecstasy, an internal high, not literally floated up into the sky high. Being caught up with something means being involved with something, not literal caught up in the sky. Heaven, the sky is always without exception an allegory for the mind, thoughts. So it’s correct interpretation is ‘Ecstatically caught up with an idea’.
“The concept of literally being floated up into the sky as the Rapture is ridiculous.”
That’s what the ppl said to Noah about a flood coming. Predictable.
Floods are very predictable especially if you can watch them live on satellite. The days have changed you know, we have technology, long range everything, eg telescopes that can see 78 BILLION light years into the Universe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw
With the Rapture you are talking selective physics, where some are affected physically, others are not. How would that work in reality?… magic from a 3’000 year old giant invisible magic man in the sky?
“Floods are very predictable”
That’s a pretty weak argument. Akin to grasping for straws. Yes, floods are now. In Noah’s time before the flood: there was no such thing as rain coming from the sky. The bible says that:
—-
For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
Genesis 2:5b-6 NKJV
—-
When it rained for the flood that Noah was predicting, that was the first time it ever happened. Same thing with the pre-trib rapture coming. It never happened before, but Will happen as prophesied.
M
So what are you claiming that Noah and the people were figments of IT’s imagination?
It says ” and there was no man to till the ground”, so Genesis is talking about before humans existed.
Seeing storms, meteors, etc before they arrive with our technology is not a weak argument but fact. This is the 21st century not the stone age.
M
You are being dishonest the rest of Genesis 2 continues; 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”
So it’s definitely talking about BEFORE man was created. Lying for Jesus eh?
Those in the body of Christ that cling to this false hope of a pre-tribulation rapture will be “left behind” and be on the outside looking in while the rest of the Church (yes, the saints) executes the glorious plan of God. In Matthew 13:39, Jesus tells us the harvest takes place at the end of the world. And according to Matthew 9:38, we are supposed to pray that the Lord of the harvest will send forth laborers into the harvest, not to take the laborers out of the world so the harvest goes unreaped! And unlike what pre-tribbers tell us, REV 14:14-15 tells us that the harvest does indeed get reaped. This is part of the glorious plan of God that the Church will execute.
John 14:12 speaks of the Church doing the things Jesus did and even greater things. These “greater things” have yet to be fulfilled. And if the pre-tribbers were correct, these things wouldn’t get fulfilled because poof, the Church would be gone without doing any of it. But alas, Jesus prayed to the Father to not take us out of the world (see John 17:15), because there is work to be done, there is a victory to be won. And the plan won’t get executed and the victory won’t be won by a church that has vanished.
Paul does not speak about a spiritually impotent Church at the end waiting around to be raptured out of here. Instead, Paul spoke of the time in the final generation when the sons of God would be revealed:
“For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.”
—Romans 8:18-19
One reason why Satan has perpetrated upon the church this myth of a mysterious poof-out-of-nowhere pre-tribulation rapture is because Satan doesn’t want the Church believing in the glorious end time plan of God. The Church will mature to the very stature of Christ Himself, doing the things He did, and even greater things, and winning the victory over Satan, causing him to be taken out of the way in heaven. This scenario is also encapsulated in Matthew 24:14, where Jesus said that the Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come. Presenting the Gospel to all the world—in power—is what triggers the final scenario at the end of the age where the Devil gets his last 42 months of time (except for a short time after the Millennial Reign). When the Church rises up as the victorious Church in the great end time harvest, they will be a witness unto all the world. No longer will the world be able to write off the Word of God as irrelevant or think of it as just a storybook. They will see right on their high-definition TV screens that the words of Jesus are true and can be trusted. And everyone on earth will have to make a choice. Will they be for Jesus or against Jesus? There will be no middle ground. The sons of God will mature to the very stature of Christ, doing the things He did, and even greater things, preaching the true Gospel—in power—to all the world and then will the end come.
So go and play make-believe church you pre-tribbers while those who believe what the Scriptures say inherit the kingdom of God and execute the glorious end time plan. The kingdom of God is not a matter of words, but a matter of power. And the whole world will see that when, as Paul talked about, the sons of God are revealed (/alternative/2013/02/the-sons-of-god-are-going-to-astound-the-world-2565258.html ).
You speak of “the church” as though it was approved by God and will be protected during the final battle. “The Church” is in opposition to God and Jesus and their teachings and requirements for us. They will all be destroyed. Jesus taught against churches, religions, and clergy and all their teachings. They are Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion. All religion is false religion. All religion will be destroyed. So will their members and clergy.
When I speak of the Church, I do not speak of man-made institutions, religions and clergy. I speak of the mystical body of Christ:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
—Colossians 1:16-18
am123;
What in the wide world of sports are you talking about? The mystical body of christ? You’re making things up now. You are misunderstanding the Colossians 1 16-18 quotes. The only thing God created first hand was Jesus, his son. Through his son, God created everything else, by, with, and for his son. And Jesus is not head of the “church”, he is the head of the Christian congregation. The Greek text that you see as church was ecclesia, and it means people or congregation, not church. Your version of the Bible should be tossed out and replaced with an accurate one.
You agree with all non-Christians, devil worshipers, atheists, etc that there will be no pre-trib rapture, but using a different ‘spiritual’ rational. A little too close for me.
M, you bring up a matter that I have seen as well. Why indeed would unbelievers even care about Bible prophecy, much less pick out one, and only one, Rapture view to hate? Where does their hatred come from, since they couldn’t care less whether Christians are prepared? And why would professing Christians join them in their mockery and slander?
The fact that only one Rapture view is so hated, and that this one view puts believers on the same side as unbelievers, is one of the surest indications that it is the correct view.
What’s interesting is that both of you just either lumped me in with devil worshipers, unbelievers, etc. or made the laughable assertion that unbelievers single out one prophecy view to hate (like they’re OK with everything else in the Bible), rather than addressing both or even one of the gigantic holes in the pre-trib rapture theory I pointed out in my post—namely, the failure of the pre-trib rapture theory to account for the great end time harvest and the Church doing greater things than Jesus did.
Very telling indeed.
“you just either lumped me in with devil worshipers, unbelievers”
How does it feel, am123? You’ve been accusing me and thousands of others of serving Satan and spreading the doctrines of demons. If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out.
But again, it’s a waste of time to try and tell you anything.
“How does it feel, am123?”
I can care less, because I know whom I am in Christ. Fire away with your accusations, I can take it.
What I am interested in though is your and M’s failure to address the gaping hole I pointed out, which you clearly have no interest in trying to address. Like I said, very telling indeed.
“I can care less”
Then don’t complain about it. Don’t whine and then say “Fire away with your accusations, I can take it”.
And I too “know whom I am in Christ.” I am not judged by you but by God, so your litany of charges about my character and that of all other pre-tribbers will be presented as evidence in the heavenly court that you have slandered and mocked people belonging to Jesus.
There is no ” gaping hole”, thus nothing to “address”. If I had several days, I could list a LOT of things YOU never addressed. But it would be as futile as the other gazillion times I’ve not only addressed but soundly refuted your claims.
No more responses to you, ever. All you do is demand answers that you refuse to hear, and mock people for disagreeing with you. Not only mocking, but judging us to be working for Satan and being fake. All of that is being recorded in heaven as evidence against you. Jesus is my Defender, and I will not discuss anything with you again. God will judge between us, Slanderer.
Go read my documents if you want to learn what the verses mean.
“Then don’t complain about it. Don’t whine and then say “Fire away with your accusations, I can take it”.”
Too funny. I’m not complaining or whining. I’m saying I could care less about you or M’s or anyone else’s accusations against me. By all means, bring it on.
“so your litany of charges about my character and that of all other pre-tribbers will be presented as evidence in the heavenly court”
I am ready to proceed to Judgment Day.
“there is no ” gaping hole”
Here, let me spell it out for you and for anyone reading this. In part 3 of your Prophecies articles on BIN, in the comments you said “The Rapture is imminent because there are NO events to look for”. Yet, we have the promise of Jesus saying the Church would do the things he did and even greater things. And we also have the prophecy of the great harvest. So in the pre-trib scenario, if the Church goes poof, taken away, then these two major events either would go unfulfilled or be referring to another group of people other than the Church. Either of these conclusions is a fatal flaw for the pre-trib rapture theory. If these great events go unfulfilled, then they would be false prophecies. If pre-tribbers maintain it is others these prophecies are talking about, then you have another group of people that are greater than the Church. Either way, the pre-trib rapture theory falls flat on its face when put up against Scripture.
Is it any wonder you won’t address it?
To am123,
“I’m saying I could care less about you or M’s or anyone else’s accusations against me.”
No accusations here. I’m just saying that if you want to believe – along with all the atheists, sinners- drug addicts, prostitutes, hedonists, buddhists, communists, satan-worshippers, Illumanatists, Jewish Zionists, etc. that there is no pre-trib rapture. If you’re comfortable being in their company doctrinally, then go for it.
Like I said, a little to close for me.
About your spiritual reason- we already are doing things greater than Jesus did. The body of Christ is spread all over the world. The gospel is being preached all over as well. People are being saved, healed and raised from the dead. This is occurring as we type/read.
M,
None of those groups you mention believe in a post-tribulation rapture either, which is what I believe in. So using your reasoning, you are in their company doctrinally as well.
As to doing greater works than Jesus did, you say people are being saved, healed and raised from the dead all over the world. Those are things Jesus did, not greater things. You are in for a big surprise. Jesus gave us a hint as to what some of these greater things are. He wasn’t using a figure of speech in Matthew 17:20.
from above: “a hint as to what some of these greater things are. He wasn’t using a figure of speech in Matthew 17:20.”
Please see my reply posted at the bottom of the comment thread. Thanks.
You wrote “This is one of the most foolish arguments from pre-tribbers,” really !??
I see you didn’t find the word churches then, Hummm
And It looks like you don’t know what the church is as I see it had to be pointed out to you, you are making so many errors in your interpretations, these have clearly been pointed out to you by others.
You wrote “So the day of Christ, the day Paul is talking about here, cannot come before the antichrist is revealed” (longer look at Thes 2. 2 in context. because)
If your having problems Identifying the church/Israel you will have problems Identifying the restrainer, who holds back the Antichrist from being revealed as HE CANNOT be revealed UNTIL HE the restrainer taken out of his (Antichrist’s) way. 2 Thessalonians 2 7-8 in context
He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth.
I think HB has been very patient with you considering and most concerning is the Holy Spirit which gave us the “Blessed Hope” and for you to call it a doctrine of Demons from Satan,Wow
your skirting very close to blaspheming the Holy One…. now that’s foolish imho 
You wrote “How silly is that? And are not the apostles members of the Church?”
Of course they are and are shown IN HEAVEN in Rev chapter 4:4 AROUND THE THRONE OF GOD
BEFORE JACOBS TROUBLE. of rev chp 6-19 THESE ARE THE CHURCHES NOW SHOWN AS ONE.
redeemed (mankind) us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Rev 5:9
you have now answer your own question.
now how silly is that !!
You wrote ” pre-tribbers don’t believe the saints in the Book of Revelation are the Church. Let it happen then as you believe!”
I’m not that puffed up to have it my way !, “It is written”, 19 times the churches, then NO mention of it again. in Jacobs trouble. not my way, but as its written by God.
AS (I) we don’t know your position on the rapture I’m guessing you do not believe in ANY rapture . IF so when ?
You cited “Matthew 13:39,
Matthew 13:39, Jesus tells us the harvest takes place at the end of the world.”
“And we also have the prophecy of the great harvest.”
“Matthew 13:39, SAYS
39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
???? This is the harvest of the goats nothing to do with the Church the reapers are Angels
You cited “REV 14:14-15″ “tells us that the harvest does indeed get reaped. This is part of the glorious plan of God that the Church will execute”
The church is not mentioned here this is the reaping of the Earth, a harvest of the unsaved commanded by Jesus executed by Angels. nothing more.
You cited “(see John 17:15), Jesus prayed to the Father to not take us out of the world ”
Once again in context.. John 17:15 SAYS
15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
17:15 keep them from the evil one. Jesus knows that the world will hate His disciples as it hated Him, but He does not ask for the disciples to be protected from suffering, but rather that they would be kept from the evil one.
Nothing to do with the rapture as you imply.
I’ll leave it here as you are rambling too much for me to make sense of and I have better things to do .
your questions have ALL been Answered.
Yes, the questions and demands and accusations have all been answered, many times over by several of us. But it was all a waste of time, because he is trying to make our responses fit his arguments. I’ve seen this tactic many times; it’s very common.
The reason I made that prophecy series is to first make sure that people are on the same page regarding the fundamentals, namely the separate identites and destinies of Israel and the church. If someone lumps all saints of all ages together, they will never understand the prophecies or grasp the arguments of anyone who does. My accuser claims to have read all that, and I have given many links as well, plus the fine arguments you’ve made, so he has no excuses.
But when one’s opponent has decided before the debate begins that we are deceived and deceiving, getting our teachings from demons and causing thousands to lose their faith, there is no hope of civil discourse but only the mockery and condemnation that’s been thrown at us repeatedly. And this has all been after we’ve told him over and over that he bases his judgment on a lie. He has been told repeatedly that a believer’s strength to endure hardship comes not from ourselves but from the Holy Spirit, so if he is relying on his own strength he will be the one to lose faith. His arguments have been the twisted wreckage of self-contradiction and denial.
But enough about him… and all the other madness that is BIN. I’m considering starting a board of my own, where this childish rubbish will not be tolerated. People who think anyone disagreeing with them must be of the devil are not interested in conversation but in domination. If you’d like to be involved in this, go to my website and click on the Contact form.
(To the trolls: Don’t bother. At the first hint of harrassment your IP will be blocked, no matter how many proxies you may use.)
HumanBeing
“..your IP will be blocked, no matter how many proxies you may use.”
LOL. Restart PC, or log out and back in = new IP address. Your troll blocking attempt would fail if it’s based on a PC IP. Your PC IP can change every time you reboot.
Just saying.
Regarding me citing Matthew 13:39, you said:
“???? This is the harvest of the goats nothing to do with the Church the reapers are Angels”
Citing Matthew 13:39 was a mistake on my part, as I should have referenced John 4:35 (see below) in regards to the harvest I am referring to. The harvest in Matthew 13:39 refers to the harvesting of the weeds (or tares, the unsaved) and the wheat (saints). The weeds are plucked up first and burned, and then the wheat (believers) are gathered. No matter how you cut it, a pre-trib rapture contradicts this parable of the wheat and tares.
But I am referring to this end time harvest of souls, which Jesus speaks about here:
“Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.”
—John 4:35
This harvest is great and the laborers are few it says elsewhere. And before the end, the harvest will get reaped, as it says in REV 14:14-15, of which you said:
“The church is not mentioned here this is the reaping of the Earth, a harvest of the unsaved commanded by Jesus executed by Angels. nothing more.”
Actually, the one that does this harvesting is not referred to as an angel (like in verse 17), for it says this:
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
—REV 14:14-15
But nevertheless, the point is there is a great end time harvest of souls that the Church will execute. Besides not lining up with Scripture, it is very strange for Christians to believe that God will not bring in the great end time harvest (yes, via the Church) before executing the judgments in Revelation.
Regarding John 17:15, you said:
“Nothing to do with the rapture as you imply.”
The idea of a pre-trib rapture goes against this prayer of Jesus.
You said:
“your questions have ALL been Answered.”
I referenced 2 gaping holes in the pre-trib theory. You gave an answer to one, which I refuted, but you neglected to answer the second hole I cited, the greater works Jesus spoke about.
You said:
“I see you didn’t find the word churches then, Hummm”
As if that has any relevance.
Here is how absurd the point that the word “church” is not mentioned after chapter 4 in Revelation is:
The only Gospel the word “church” is mentioned in is Matthew. So, according to your logic and reasoning, Mark, Luke, and John do not speak to the Church.
You said:
“you will have problems Identifying the restrainer, who holds back the Antichrist from being revealed as HE CANNOT be revealed UNTIL HE the restrainer taken out of his (Antichrist’s) way.”
At the heart of Satan’s deception of a pre-tribulation rapture is the misconception that the “restrainer” referred to in the second chapter of 2nd Thessalonians, who is holding things back so that the Antichrist isn’t revealed until the proper time, is the Holy Spirit. This is not true. It is the exact opposite of this. This restrainer that Paul talks about is not the Holy Spirit, it is the unholy spirit, or Satan. Look at the language Paul uses. He says that the one holding back the secret power of lawlessness will continue to do so until he is “taken out of the way”. It is not a voluntary thing—he is forcibly removed. So the restrainer will be forcibly removed, and then the Antichrist will be revealed. The Antichrist is Satan’s “trump card” so to speak, or his best weapon. He is Satan’s last resort. If you are in a war and you are wise and cunning—as we know Satan is—then you do not use your last resort before it is time to use your last resort. The world today is full of corruption and evil. It would be foolish of Satan and it is not necessary for him to use his best weapon or last resort in a world where he is pretty much having his way. But that will change when Christians unite and become the true Church. As the Church realizes its part in the end times and comes together in love and grows and matures and starts walking in the true power of Christianity, doing the things Jesus did and even greater things, reaping the great end time harvest in the greatest revival the world has ever known, and as they pull down strongholds of the enemy all over the place, then the overcoming Church, as personified by the man child of Revelation 12:5, will win the victory over the Devil by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and Satan will be cast down from heaven—he will be taken out of the way. Paul knew there was coming a time when the Church would be victorious over Satan as described in Revelation 12:7-12. This onslaught against the powers and principalities of darkness will back Satan into a corner, forcing him to play his trump card, or use his best weapon, his last resort. It is at the very beginning of Revelation 13 that the beast arises. So it is Satan who is the restrainer who must be taken out of the way in heaven and then the Antichrist will be revealed.
You said:
“I’m not that puffed up to have it my way !, “It is written”, 19 times the churches, then NO mention of it again. in Jacobs trouble. not my way, but as its written by God.”
The point was, the Bible tells of believers in Christ inheriting the eternal kingdom of God and yet you don’t believe these prophecies refer to you.
You said:
“AS (I) we don’t know your position on the rapture I’m guessing you do not believe in ANY rapture . IF so when ?”
Here is my position on the rapture:
/alternative/2013/02/rapture-alert-millions-of-christians-have-been-deceived-2561260.html
In a way your headline is correct “The Rapture, Then Hell On Earth”
We are born, brought up with the idea the world is our oyster, then the religious burst your bubble, create hell on Earth for everyone who disagrees with their odiously arrogant, draconian dark age barbarianism, creating hate, division, misery and war.
from above: “a hint as to what some of these greater things are. He wasn’t using a figure of speech in Matthew 17:20.”
To be more clear: when I mention ‘greater things’, they are greater because they are happening all over the world. Jesus was one body/person who could only be one place at one time.
Matthew 17:20 is a cool scripture. Thanks for pointing it out. Why can’t the signs that Jesus prophesied there occur before a pre-trib rapture? I don’t see why they have to be mutually exclusive. Larry Randolph’s prophecy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyqgpO27RsE “There shall be an unveiling of the sons and daughters of God”… He’s speaking of this year- 2014.
I think the two most critical points not grasped by those who vilify the PTR are these:
1. Every Christian of every era should always be prepared to suffer or die for Jesus. This has noting to do with anyone’s eschatology. Suffering and martyrdom have been part of the church throughout this age.
2. Every Christian should be humble enough to know that they could be wrong about their theology, no matter which view of eschatology they take. Any Christian who does not admit to being fallible is prideful and vulnerable to a fall.
These two things are not dependent upon one’s conviction on the timing of Jesus’ return. But the PTR haters cannot see or understand this. And we can’t forget this third principle:
3. It is the righteousness of Jesus that makes us righteous, and the power of the Holy Spirit that guards us. Anyone who relies on their own power or righteousness does not understand salvation.
All of these points can and must be understood outside of and prior to any debate on any Bible topic.
But the PTR haters can’t and won’t.
HumanBeing
The second point you make is, to me, the most interesting.
What I have noticed over the past 38 years is that any of these Christian leaders who are so willing to “die for Jesus” are, however, unwilling to lose their JOBS for the Truth.
Neither are they willing to acknowledge that they could be WRONG about the Doctrine of “the resurrection”.
And, in fact, they are not prepared to lose their jobs even in an effort to prevent MILLIONS of people from losing their lives during the coming “time of trouble”, which is the specific REASON that they have CHOSEN to censor the Revelations and the Prophecies I have sent them.
If even ONE of these Christian religious ‘authorities’ had ascribed to your SECOND point, you would have been informed of the Revelations and Prophecies I have received more than 38 years ago.
Michael
Michael,
I’m not in the business of judging other people’s motives, or divine what they may or may not do in a given situation. So it does no good to tell me what you think about “Christian leaders”.
But one thing I can know is to discern truth from error by diligent study of the scriptures, and they tell me that “in these last days [God] HAS SPOKEN through his Son”. No further revelations are needed; we have the New Testament, which is the Gospels, the “teachings of the apostles”, and the ONE revelation to John. Anything or anyone that contradicts the Bible is someone I’m not listening to, and I think most of those “Christian leaders” would say the same.
BTW, I finished my prophecy book: http://books.fether.net/index.php?theBook=BPFF
Well I didn’t have to go far to find an error…. “Books of a Fether”
Feather, not fether.
The Pox bot is such a moron…
Fether is my last name. It’s a play on words. Totally above your programming level.
M,
You said:
“when I mention ‘greater things’, they are greater because they are happening all over the world. Jesus was one body/person who could only be one place at one time.”
This is what Jesus said:
“Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”
—John 14:12
“even greater things” implies greater in quality, not greater in quantity.
You said:
“Why can’t the signs that Jesus prophesied there occur before a pre-trib rapture?”
The standard position of pre-tribbers (like HB) is nothing else has to occur for the rapture to occur. So the unveiling of the sons of God is not a prerequisite according to pre-tribbers. Perhaps you are not in that camp?
What I am saying about the pre-trib scenario is it does not include what Paul told us, that the sons of God will be revealed. That is one of the gaping holes in the pre-trib rapture theory. I say Paul’s prophecy about the sons of God HAS to occur before the rapture occurs. If the Church were raptured out of here say in one hour from now, that prophecy would go unfulfilled.
For more on the revealing of the sons of God, see:
/alternative/2013/02/the-sons-of-god-are-going-to-astound-the-world-2565258.html
Depending on what ‘The Unveiling’ is considered to be… There’s a lot of groaning with birth pangs in creation now- waiting for the unveiling, according to Romans 8 19-23 NKJV
——–
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
——-
according to above, the creation being delivered from the bondage of corruption has not happened yet and ‘the glorious liberty of the children of God’ has not manifested yet. These things will probably will not happen until sometime in the future. I wouldn’t put complete faith in a biblical interpretation that this will occur before the rapture… and esp. not during the tribulation. It IMO that’s not gonna happen.
“I wouldn’t put complete faith in a biblical interpretation that this will occur before the rapture”
That’s the whole idea behind what I’m saying. The revealed sons of God are members of the Church. If there’s no Church around, they’ll be no sons of God revealed.
There is Sooooo much wrong with this personal interpenetration.
most alarming is calling the Holy Spirit restrainer
you wrote “not the Holy Spirit, it is the unholy spirit, or Satan” Wow
this is too hot for me,you are so far off base.
I’m not going to re hash your harvest fixation that myself and others have answered, even the greater things have been done imho, or get caught up in identifying your weed tares position as if this is the rapture(which its NOT) when it is the end of the age harvest already discussed, done by angels, wheat are the remanent who inherit the kingdom on Earth as mortals imho.
No you have not found the Church (es), I asked you to find !! you mentioned Mark Luke etc
concentrate a little and find the word Churches in REVALATION after the 4 chapter, you can’t because there are no more churches, they are one before the throne of God in heaven.
I have much to show that the church is in chapter 4 :4 is in heaven but I’m holding back as I will not throw pearls before those who say the Holy spirit is Satan or an unholy spirit.
Now, You tell me who are those around the throne of God AT THE BEGINNING of Jacobs trouble !! ??
You HAVE (Past Tense) redeemed (mankind) US (HUMANS) to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Rev 5:9
1 Peter Chapter 4 judgment BEGINS FIRST at the house of God that’s WHY the churches are JUDGED FIRST…
Now you tell me who is pictured here as we have answer all your questions that you think you have refuted Revelation Chapter 19 v 14…
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready….(in HEAVEN)
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Now “”HOW ” DID they GET THERE ?? and WHO is this COMING WITH THEM ??
TO DO WHAT.?? 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations.
Of course that was to read, Personal Interpretation, my phone does the same thing lol
HB Yes we look through rose coloured glasses , All good points
I said , Nothing to do with the rapture as you imply.” IT STILL has nothing to do with the rapture.
You wrote “The idea of a pre-trib rapture goes against this prayer of Jesus”
You have NOT Proven it ! this is the prayer you offer.John 17:15 SAYS
Once more again in context..
15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
17:15 keep them from the evil one. Jesus knows that the world will hate His disciples as it hated Him, but He does not ask for the disciples to be protected from suffering, but rather that they would be kept from the evil one. (from Killing them immediately Jesus departed to the fathers house)
This is crystal clear The Deviil aka Satan is a supernatural being who could take them the disciples out in a HEART BEAT if it was not for the restrainer = GOD, my 6 children understand what is said here, they are NOT even in high school yet !
So Logic and Rational dictates that the ONE who is restraining the arrival of the Antichrist revealing is GOD (the restrainer) = Holy spirit, as ONLY HE can hold back the son of perdition and Satan’s rampage.
As believe me we would NOT be having this conversation.
Some thoughts on the katecho (“restrainer”) and the ekklesia (“church”):
There are two ways to approach this issue of identifying the katecho. One way is to base our interpretation on the grammatical gender of the nouns and pronouns. The Spirit takes the neuter pronoun (it) as also does the restrainer in vs. 6, but the restrainer takes the masculine pronoun (he) in vs. 7. If the church were in view then the feminine pronoun would be used. The only entity in that context taking the masculine would be the Master, so we can deduce that “what is restraining” (vs. 6) might be the Spirit, but the coming of the Master Jesus for us is what allows the Man of Lawlessness to be revealed.
The problem with that view is that Jesus could only be said to be taken out of the way very indirectly; that is, by taking the church out of the way. But grammatical gender is not a decisive factor beyond matching words together in a sentence. For example, the Holy Spirit takes the neuter grammatical gender (it) in all cases, yet when described as the Comforter in John 14:17, the masculine grammatical gender (he) is used. So the pronouns depend not on some intrinsic quality of the Holy Spirit, but strictly on the arbitrary (non-biological) gender of the nouns used to refer to the Spirit. Likewise, though the church is portrayed in scripture as feminine (a bride), that same Greek word is also used to describe an angry mob in Acts 19:32. So we can see that the grammatical gender of a word has nothing to do with the literal or figurative gender of a person or group.
If the latter approach is to be preferred, then the restrainer could be just about anyone or anything. However, it must be an entity that has been restraining Man of Lawlessness, so it would not be a worldly or evil entity. Thus we can narrow the possibilties to a benevolent entity of immense power. And since we have scriptural descriptions of angels of God being apparently equal in strength to those of Satan (e.g. Dan. 10:13), this narrows the possibilties further to being God or the only other entity filled with the Holy Spirit: the church. Certainly the Holy Spirit will be active after the Man of Lawlessness is revealed, since many come to faith and are martyred for it. But the church has been a restraining force in the world throughout its existance, albeit not as powerfully as it could have been.
That’s the thing, CT. Our accuser comes dangerously close to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. To assign something of God to Satan is exactly what Jesus called an unforgiveable sin. To believe that Jesus will come exactly as he promised– to take us to the place prepared for us– is clearly scriptural. And to judge all pre-tribbers as spreading demonic teachings, BASED ON A FALSE ASSUMPTION (that PTR makes people have weak faith), is just plain foolish.
And I agree… it’s throwing pearls to swine to discuss scripture with anyone who so maligns and mocks people who clearly have accepted Jesus as Savior. And our accuser even has admitted that I don’t fit his presumptions, which as I told him, disproves his whole thesis about pre-tribbers. I asked him how many PTRs he knows personally or has talked to directly, and he never answered. As he likes to say, “very telling indeed”.
From our adversary’s own mouth:
“He says that the one holding back the secret power of lawlessness will continue to do so until he is “taken out of the way”. It is not a voluntary thing—he is forcibly removed. So the restrainer will be forcibly removed, and then the Antichrist will be revealed.”
This is exactly what the Rapture is all about: being suddenly and forcefully taken away. The church is the restrainer; where the Holy Spirit goes, so do we. Our being “salt” and “light” has been the preserving influence in the world, the brake that must be released before the Antichrist can get started. The Rapture is not voluntary, which is why those who mock us as people who will board a spaceship are so far off-base. The Rapture will be the forceful snatching away of the church out of the world so the prophetic timeline can pick up where it left off in the first century.
Yes, our adversary has just confirmed our claim all this time that the Rapture must precede the revealing of the Antichrist. I love how God turns the tables on those who oppose his people!
Yes’
HB
He has the answers in his own questions and does not recognize it ?, he has confirmed the PTR position out of his own mouth, so true, I must say this is “very telling indeed”.
Maranatha
Furthermore under this personal Interpretation scenario
We are to believe SATAN is holding back….wait for it, a SATAN possessed Human. a “trump card”
Inotherwords there is No restrainer at ALL…. as SATAN is HOLDING BACK SATAN.
How bizarre is that..!!
Totally bizarre, CT. Complete baldersash. But that’s where people wind up when they build their house of cards on sinking sand.
“Complete baldersash. ”
Haven’t had my morning cup of tea… of course that should have been “balderdash”.
CT said:
“Now, You tell me who are those around the throne of God AT THE BEGINNING of Jacobs trouble !! ??”
Sure.
First off, you said:
“I have much to show that the church is in chapter 4 :4”
It’s possible you meant another chapter and verse, but the church is not depicted around the throne in chapter 4 of Revelation. In chapter 4, around the throne you have the 24 elders, the 7 spirits of God, and the 4 living creatures (or beasts).
To find some members of the church, you have to go to chapter 6:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
—REV 6:9-11
Notice in verse 11, these in the white robes were killed. They were killed by the Beast/Babylon during the tribulation. In chapter 7, it tells us this about these in the white robes:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
…..
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
—REV 7:9,13,14
So in summary, you have members of the Church who are killed by the Beast/Babylon during the tribulation, and they end up before the throne of God in heaven in their white robes.
CT also said:
“Now you tell me who is pictured here as we have answer all your questions that you think you have refuted Revelation Chapter 19 v 14…”
In REV 19:14, you have the army of heaven following Jesus. This is the church. The rapture has occurred at this point, at the 7th trumpet/3rd woe, when Jesus comes riding on the clouds and every eye shall see (REV 1:7).
still on this post-trib rapture kick, I see. Even after I disproved your theory about ‘the unveiling’ happening in this age (see above). Too bad.
ah, no. The people martyred in Revelation 6:9 are not called the Church. The Church is already in heaven. They are referred to as servants and brethren to servants. Not exactly the Bride of Christ position (as I stated in an earlier post in this thread).
————
and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
————
You didn’t disprove anything.
“You didn’t disprove anything.”
Then either you didn’t read my post, or you don’t understand the scripture quoted: Romans 8:19-23. Either way, I can’t help you. Sorry about that.
Well, can you explain how can the sons of God be revealed if the Church is not here?
“Well, can you explain how can the sons of God be revealed if the Church is not here?”
Fair question. From what I understood, this will happen in the next dispensation/age/era, in whatever form that may take. It has something to do with Jesus ruling with a rod of iron, and the unveiling. The lamb will lay down with the lion, etc.
There’s all kinds of hints in the bible. I heard someone say that “the next age has hints in the bible about how it will be like – just like how the bible hinted about This dispensation would be to the Jews.”
If you believe it happens in the next dispensation/age, the next dispensation/age is the Millennial Reign, of which, Revelation says this:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
—REV 20:4-6
This is the first resurrection, and those who partake of this resurrection are priests and will reign with Jesus during the thousand years. You’ve got to squeeze in the revealing of the sons of God sometime before this point because this is when the church begins their reign. And it is funny how you guys don’t believe those who are beheaded during the tribulation are the church, yet here they are on equal footing with the church.
Regarding the age after that, the new heavens and new earth, yes there are hints about that, but there also things that are more than hints. For example, Isaiah and Ezekiel and Zechariah tell us of things that will be going on in the new heavens and new earth. But that is another subject.
I must say your lacking spiritual discernment of WHO is WHO on most of your personal Interpretation of scripture (imho) even those you link us to ,I’ve left messages their also.. I’m not going to give up more pearls, you must attain them yourself and I would recommend you buy some more “oil” from HE who supplies it, while you can, you have not answered most of my/ our questions that you claim “you refuted” ! and ramble on about the Tribulation saints which I asked you not too as its clear WHO they are and where they came from. ( We are not destined for the wrath of GOD, where HE allows the Antichrist to prevail, the very appearance of the Antichrist “reveled” would surly be the “WRATH of GOD” let loose on Mankind Rev 6:2.
(But I guess the Antichrist to you is a system of some other thing )to avoid the obvious answer)
Furthermore I would certainly take down your personal Interpretations about the restrainer,it’s an abomination even to me as there is NO basis for your theory ! You have been found “wanting” in your answers or lack more of. Yet’ we have answered ALL of yours… “as it is written”
In addition, due to the above and the warnings from other that you do not have the ability to connect the dots on THIS subject, which is apparent, I will not go on to discuss your error on the trumpets at this stage, When you dismiss the ELDERS, redeemed from the Earth and ALL the information there in as…” IRRELEVANT”. Wow…. spiritually blinded.
I know what I write and I give clear passages for you to look at, then you decide, in your own mind I don’t mean that passage?, I must mean this one of your choice!, so as not to answer the question.
We will have to agree to disagree and leave it to GOD…. “as its written”
We may be able to agree on other subjects in the future but this one, not a chance in…
“I know what I write and I give clear passages for you to look at, then you decide, in your own mind I don’t mean that passage?”
Please explain then where the Church is in chapter 4 of Revelation.
Agree, CT. No point in trying anymore. The “gaping hole” in our adversary’s case, as posted above re. “from his own mouth”, stands unrefuted and unrefutable. The church, the only entity where each person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is the Restrainer, and he has stated clearly that this Restrainer must be taken out of the way before the Man of Lawlessness can be revealed. And of course, since all the past 69 weeks of Daniel’s prophecy were all about Israel and Jerusalem, so also will be the 70th. As we both know, this means the whole 7 years, not just the final half, and certainly not just the day Jesus sets foot on the earth.
Post-trib is the least defensible of all Rapture teachings. Its foundation is a confusion of Israel and the church, its walls are made of reliance upon one’s own strength, and its roof is covered in slander against anyone who waits for the Christ rather than the Antichrist. It would have Jesus Himself, through His bride, suffering the wrath of God which He already suffered on the cross. It believes that Satan is his own restrainer. It has all the righteous being made immortal before the Millennium begins, leaving the world to be populated by people who, by process of elimination, must be ‘saints’ that are not part of the church. And if this teaching admits that saints can be outside of the church, then it has undermined its own claim that Trib. saints must be part of the church just because they’re called saints.
It’s a mishmash of error, and not worth further explanation.
HB spot on can’t argue with you there 69 weeks , 1 week to go HAS to be 7 FULL years of JACOBS trouble (Israel)
and who will inherit the kingdom If all become Immortals before millennium begins,
excellent
As for our detractor we will pray for him/ her ?
Have a great weekend …GOD Bless
Maranatha
“Please explain then where the Church is in chapter 4 of Revelation.”
If you can’t see them by now, I implore you to do the following.
You must attain this information YOURSELF and I would recommend the following, by doing this and asking the Holy Spirit to guide you in ALL things.(Assuming you are born again) HE will show you the church in Rev 4 this is the ONLY way YOU will believe , Ask, Seek, and YOU will Find.
That’s how I found them.
JEREMIAH 33:3
Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.
Notwithstanding, I’ll pray for you, this is the christian way. I believe your sincere with your love of Israel and the Lord.
Maranatha
Yes, prayer is always a good thing.
I just usually don’t say to an adversary that “I will pray for your eyes to be opened”, since it’s condesending. I just pray without saying anything, and I pray that the truth is known above all.
“If you can’t see them by now,”
I’m trying to understand your logic and reasoning. Above in a prior post you asked where I found the word “church” in Revelation and wouldn’t accept that anyone else mentioned in Revelation (saints in white robes, 2 witnesses, manchild) was a member of the church because it didn’t explicitly say “church”. So where in chapter 4 of Revelation do you see the word “church”?
CT, here’s a good study on Rev. you might be interested in: http://m.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-4/revelation-4-1.html (standard disclaimer applies, since I haven’t read all the material at that site).
That link was on Rev. 4, but here’s one all about the Rapture: http://m.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/rapture.html#4.14
An excellent statement from http://m.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/typology-and-the-rapture.html:
“Postribulationalists reject this conclusion, contending there is no reason why Christians in the last generation deserve to escape the great tribulation. The fact is, however, that Christians in every other generation have escaped the great tribulation, so there is no reason why the last should be singled out for participation in it.”
Hi HB “Prayer is always good”
I believe we are all Christians and this is NOT a salvation issue, that said, it “may” determine your calling (how we enter heaven) as we come as we are called….more so at the end of the age, parable of the 10 Virgins.
The first link you gave is not really PTR as you warned
Imho those who love the Lord / Jerusalem (Israel) and GODS other sheep are not my adversaries, even if we are at opposite poles on how it eventually plays out.
We all know who the real adversary is
We can agree to disagree and leave it at that and pray for each other.
No worries
HB you know that agree/disagree was for 123 and not you lol
You wrote “in a prior post you asked where I found the word “church” in Revelation”
NO once again I reiterate, find me the word Church (es) after the 4 Chapter, that’s WHAT I said.
Church (es)
Even Rev 19:7 would be a perfect place to say the word CHURCH but does not, the word used is WIFE.
John 21:21-23, He shall not die; but, If I will that HE tarry TILL I COME, what is that to thee?
No the churches as it is written are judged at the beginning AS SHOWN in REV and He John was told that his work REVELATION will (tarry till )…….. the COMING OF THE LORD.
Rev 4 door standing open in heaven! (parable 10 virgins door) John is pictured here, the trumpet voice said “Come up here, At once I was in the Spirit,
2 Timothy 4:8
in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also TO ALL WHO HAVE LOVED HIS APPEARING. are you loving his imminent appearing Amen
as this depiction is not at a post tribulation juncture.
let it be as it is written
Maranatha
“NO once again I reiterate, find me the word Church (es) after the 4 Chapter, that’s WHAT I said.
Church (es)
Even Rev 19:7 would be a perfect place to say the word CHURCH but does not, the word used is WIFE.”
Indeed. And that is a perfect example why I am confused by your logic and reasoning.
If I mention something in Revelation as to pertaining to the church, you reject it because it doesn’t explicitly say church (or churches). Yet here you are claiming REV 19:7 refers to the church even though the word church is not used.
So why the difference, why can REV 19:7 be talking about the church and the saints in the white robes for example, can’t be talking about the church?
The topic in discussion lets not forget is PTR
You wrote”Yet here you are claiming REV 19:7 refers to the church even though the word church is not used.”
NO’ I did not claim that !, once again you are twisting what I said…. this is what I said
Even Rev 19:7 WOULD BE a perfect place TO SAY the word CHURCH but does NOT the Spirit chose WIFE and not church !
You have NOT found me the word( churches or church) as I requested after the 4th chapter, the returning is the WIFE Rev19 v7
You wrote”So why the difference, why can REV 19:7 be talking about the church and the saints in the white robes for example, can’t be talking about the church?”
Because the word CHURCH, CHURCHES are NOT MENTIONED for these Individuals. or anyone else after the 4 chp.
I and HB have explained this over and over, really do you have some sort of mild undiagnosed asperger’s syndrome, or is English not your first language,
lets Start at the beginning again.last time !
Judgement starts with the Bride, the individual churches, some are rewarded ( heaven) and others thrown into (Jacobs trouble)( parable 10 Virgins) ,the churches are not mentioned again after chp 4 because they are to be married at the wedding (in Heaven) so after the wedding Bridegroom and Bride she is NOW called the WIFE (the churches as they were on Earth don’t exist ANYMORE or have the same meaning, it is now the WIFE made up of (ALL the Church age ) individuals chosen by GOD including “Messianic Jews for Jesus” the Orthodox Jews who have recently accepted Y’shua as their messiah, all believers BEFORE the rapture who are BA) The Father now has a WIFE a New Song and a New Name as we are one with the LORD GOD.
That’s about it as its frustrating going over the same stuff as HB say’s
We will have to agree to disagree
123 my reply is a few posts above.
Sorry HB better clear this up as its very late in the Am when I write these comments, only later I see my oversights.
I wrote :” we are all Christians”
By this i meant those who comment favorably towards our God Y’shua and SAY they are christian, and are sincere.
I know at times we all don’t act christian as we are fallible.
Then there are those tares who are outright rude, cruel, slanderous.
These are NOT Christians as Here is the litmus test.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God.
Spiritually blind
Matthew 22:14 Multitudes are called (Christian) very few are chosen.
Are you born again 123 just for the record ?
We’re cool, CT.
As for salvation and behavior, I believe that if someone understood and accepted that Jesus is God in the flesh who rose from the dead, that person was sealed with the Holy Spirit and “bought at a great price”, reborn as a “new creation”. So if someone accepted this Jesus in order to be reconciled to God and not just as a ticket out of hell, that person is saved.
Good behavior follows salvation and comes from gratitude and love. However, many who are genuinely saved either never grow spiritually or grow to a point and then stop, sometimes backsliding a great distance. Much of the content of the NT epistles was to deal with these matters, and they were all addressed to believers.
So if our opponent was saved at some point in the past, and I have no reason to doubt it, then I believe he is still saved. However, calling a teaching demonic is a very serious charge when fellow believers, equally saved and honestly seeking to rightly divide the Word, reach a different conclusion than he does concerning the Rapture. I can think of several other topics whose proponents behave extremely poorly, and who consider others lost or spreading doctrines of demons just for disagreeing. Such people will, in my opinion, lose rewards but not salvation.
It’s been this accusation, based as it is on lies and straw men, that both of us have taken issue with. But our opponent thinks we are deluded and that we’re only upset because we want our view to be true. And no matter how many times we’ve explained this, there has been no indication that he understands what we’re saying. And as we agreed, the thing to do is to pray for the truth to be known, and for whoever’s eyes are closed to be opened.
“Are you born again 123 just for the record ?”
I suppose you could have looked at my profile to find the answer. Or you will find the answer here:
/spirit/2013/03/do-you-want-to-know-the-mysteries-of-the-kingdom-of-heaven-believe-and-you-will-see-2476072.html
Just saw this, and it really does a good job of showing the problem that’s been going on here:
——————————–
So, over on her blog, HumanBeing says that the falling away, or departure, in verse 3 below refers to the rapture:
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition”
—2 Thessalonians 2:3
But here in this thread, HumanBeing says the day that Paul is talking about, the day the Thessalonians thought they missed out on (the rapture), is the day Paul is talking about in verse 3 above.
You can’t have it both ways HumanBeing, which is it?
———————————
Where’s the “both ways”? I say the same thing in my blog that I say here, and this is a problem? This is not one “way” but two? On what planet do people take the same thing as two things? I say the same thing in both my blog and here, because I don’t contradict myself: the Departure is what the Thessalonians thought they had missed, and Paul is reassuring them that the Departure comes first, followed by the revealing of the Man of Sin.
Seriously, how can anyone read my statements and ask, “Which is it?” He may as well ask whether I want 6 donuts or half a dozen!
(Of course, no response will be given to him directly, as I promised I wouldn’t. I just got a big laugh out of this and wanted to share the love.)
Here is my confusion, which, please feel free to clear up for me. Though I guess you can’t reply directly to this, so perhaps you can reply to me indirectly in a post to CT.
Your claim is in 2nd Thessalonians, Paul is addressing them because they thought they missed out on the rapture, as you said:
““Their fear tells us that they thought they had missed “our being gathered to him””.
So considering that, let me break down the first 3 verses of 2nd Thessalonians 2, with my comments, to show you my confusion.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[am123: So here Paul is talking about the gathering together with Jesus, the rapture.]
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[am123: Here Paul is saying do not be troubled, thinking that the day of Christ, the day they were troubled about (as you alluded to), the gathering together, or the rapture, is at hand. This is what you claim in this thread they were worried about, thinking they missed it.]
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for THAT DAY shall not come,
[am123: “that day”, meaning the day spoken of in verse 2, the day you said in this thread that they were worried that they missed, the gathering together, or the rapture.]
except there come a FALLING AWAY first,
[am123: in your blog, you claim the falling away speaks to the rapture. So which event is really the rapture, the “falling away” here, or “that day” above?]
1. Paul says what the question is: about the coming of Jesus and our being gathered.
2. He is correcting a false letter that contradicted what he had told them earlier.
3. He starts his answer by first mentioning THE DAY OF THE LORD. This Day, the wrath of God, was what the people feared they would now have to endure, since they were told by a false teacher that they had missed the gathering.
4. He reminds them of the truth: that THAT DAY (the Day of the Lord, NOT the gathering) would not begin until after the gathering. Clearly the Day and the Gathering are TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS, one preceding the other.
In other words: Paul had told them that there would be a gathering/Departure BEFORE the Day of the Lord. Later, some false letter came and claimed that the Departure was passed and the Day of the Lord was beginning. Paul had told them one thing and then the fake letter told them something else. Now Paul has to remind them of what he had said before: that first comes the Departure. Since they were still there, there had been no Departure, so the Day of the Lord could not have started yet.
So when you say this:
[am123: “that day”, meaning the day spoken of in verse 2, the day you said in this thread that they were worried that they missed, the gathering together, or the rapture.]
You are burning a straw man. As I have told you dozens of times, THAT DAY IS NOT THE RAPTURE. How else can I say it? There are two things in the passage:
1. The Gathering / Departure / Rapture
2. The Day of the Lord
No. 1 is what they thought they had missed, and no. 2 is what they were afraid they were about to suffer. I did NOT equate “that day” with the Rapture. Understand? “That day” is THE DAY OF THE LORD. The other event is the Gathering / Departure / Rapture.
Should I try saying it in German? Greek? Klingon? I’m out of ideas.
And just for old times’ sake:
1. The Gathering / Departure / Rapture is one event.
2. The Day of the Lord is another event.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Maybe this will help, but I won’t hold my breath:
The people were afraid they missed one thing.
The people were afraid they DIDN’T miss another thing.
One thing they wanted. The other thing they didn’t want.
They wanted the Departure. They did NOT want the Day of the Lord.
One good. One bad. One they didn’t want to miss. One they did want to miss.
The Departure… good.
The Day of the Lord… bad.
And if that isn’t getting through, there is absolutely no hope of ever resolving even the simplest disagreements in scripture, and my time would be better spent arguing about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.
I know! Story form…
“Now about that question you asked regarding us meeting Jesus in the air. Don’t let anyone fool you! We said nothing like what that fake letter said, that the Tribulation already started. That can’t happen until after the Rapture, and then the Lawless One will be revealed. How could you forget what I told you? And you know what’s holding him back for now. Although lawlessness is already here, it’s only after the church is out of the way that the Lawless One will be revealed.”
I put familiar terms in the passage to minimize your confusion. But that is my last-ditch effort, so don’t ask me again.
Let it be known that I have expended every effort to explain what should be a very simple thing, no matter how many times the same question was asked and my words were twisted. Many times 123 attempted to burn the straw man that I somehow equate “that day” with the Rapture. This is not what I said at all. The reason he is confused is because he insists that I use his definitions in my arguments.
He also has never shown any remorse for labeling and slandering all pre-tribbers as spreading the doctrines of demons and being deluded. THIS, not the differences of interpretation, is my primary objection to his behavior. When someone resorts to such tactics, there will be no communication. When someone plays God and judges the motives and spiritual quality of millions of people he hasn’t met, that is the height of arrogance and contempt. Such a person should not think he has any further right to be heard.
OK, you are saying “that day” in verse 3 is referring to the Day of the Lord and not the rapture. I get that. So for convenience, for anyone reading this, here are the first 3 verses in 2nd Thessalonians, and then I will show how your claim falls apart:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
—2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
So you claim that in verse 3, “that day” refers to the Day of the Lord and not the rapture. But when Paul mentions “that day” in verse 3, he is referring back to the day spoken of in the previous verse, the “day of Christ”. And the “day of Christ” in verse 2 is defined in verse 1 as the gathering together, which is the rapture.
“And the “day of Christ” in verse 2 is defined in verse 1 as the gathering together”
NO.
————————————————————————————————-
“2 That ye be not soon shaken… as that THE DAY OF CHRIST is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY”
————————————————————————————————-
The Day of Christ is the immediate antecedent of “that day”.
I give up.
You said:
“The Day of Christ is the immediate antecedent of “that day”.”
Exactly.
I declared the “day of Christ” is the immediate antecedent of “that day” when I said:
“But when Paul mentions “that day” in verse 3, he is referring back to the day spoken of in the previous verse, the “day of Christ”.”
And the immediate antecedent of “the day of Christ” in verse 2 is the “gathering together” in verse 1.
Can I get some help here CT? Anyone?
Can you please explain how I have erred here:
HB said:
“The Day of Christ is the immediate antecedent of “that day”.”
Isn’t that the same thing I claimed when I said:
“But when Paul mentions “that day” in verse 3, he is referring back to the day spoken of in the previous verse, the “day of Christ”.”
CT, are these statements in agreement or not?
CT,
I can’t even make myself read this thread anymore. I’m beyond exasperated with the futility of getting across even the smallest, simplest point. I won’t be checking back for anyone’s responses here, but feel free to contact me at my blog if you’d like to keep in touch. I’ve given too many second and third and fiftieth chances and it’s all been a waste of time.
Totally understand HB I’m just about done too, a couple of more posts and I’m done also.
HB wrote”However, calling a teaching demonic is a very serious charge when fellow believers, equally saved and honestly seeking to rightly divide the Word, reach a different conclusion than he does concerning the Rapture. I can think of several other topics whose proponents behave extremely poorly, and who consider others lost or spreading doctrines of demons just for disagreeing. Such people will, in my opinion, lose rewards but not salvation.”
AGREE 100% very poor responses that’s just ONE issue that led me to ask the question are you born again !? even though he says he is, even in his profile. ?
We have both explained our positions “as it is written” succinctly The Holy Spirt holding back the reveling of the Lawlessone is the correct order. He says its Satan holding back Satan to back up his theory. He ignores the Elders, the redeemed before the throne of GOD, the crowned ones, Johns work will tarry till I COME as Y’shua said,this ties with the open door and John in the Spirit in an instant (at once)
HB wrote”Seriously, how can anyone read my statements and ask, “Which is it?”.
“there has been no indication that he understands what we’re saying”.
IF its not spiritual discernment what is it ? …I don’t know !!
as you say we have better things to do
123 my reply is a 18 posts above for some reason
The topic in discussion, lets not forget is PTR
Let me put it here (with slight amendments) FOR CLARITY.
You wrote ”Yet here you are claiming REV 19:7 refers to the church even though the word church is not used.”
NO’ I DID NOT CLAIM THAT !, once again you are twisting what I said…. This is what I said
Even Rev 19:7 WOULD BE a perfect place TO SAY the word CHURCH but does NOT the Spirit chose WIFE and not church !
You have NOT found me the word( churches or church) as I requested after the 4th chapter, the returning is the WIFE Rev19 v7
You wrote ”So why the difference, why can REV 19:7 be talking about the church and the saints in the white robes for example, can’t be talking about the church?”
Because the word CHURCH, CHURCHES are NOT MENTIONED for these Individuals. or anyone else after the 4 chp.
I and HB have explained this over and over, really do you have some sort of mild undiagnosed asperger’s syndrome, or is English not your first language ?,
lets Start at the beginning AGAIN. Last time !
Judgement starts with the Bride, the individual churches (people), some are rewarded ( heaven) and others thrown into (Jacobs trouble)( parable 10 Virgins) PTR ,the CHURCHES are NOT mentioned AGAIN after chp 4 because they are (GONE) to be married at the wedding (in Heaven) the others (10 Virgin parable) become Trib saints as Rev mentions. The DOORS is NOT OPENED AGAIN.
So after the wedding (Bridegroom and Bride at last joined immortally) she is NOW called the WIFE (the churches as they were on Earth don’t exist ANYMORE or have the same meaning as they did, it is now the WIFE made up of (ALL the Church age ) individuals chosen by GOD including “Messianic Jews for Jesus” even the Orthodox Jews who have recently accepted Y’shua as their Messiah, all believers BEFORE the rapture who are (BA) JEW AND GENTILE)
So that’s WHY she is called the WIFE we cannot go backwards ..understand !
The Father now has a WIFE with a New Song and a New Name as we are one with the LORD GOD.
GOD knows what he has written and the total lack of the WORD churches/ church during the time of Jacobs trouble is glaring evidence She is NOT IN IT or He would have used that word.
You don’t pick a Bride and beat her up or let others beat her to a pulp and then say lets get married do you.? neither does GOD.
LUKE 21:36 WATCH ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.
Which John clearly shows US at the BEGINNING of REVELATION.
I don’t expect you to get it, as you have NOT Identified any of the characters we have discussed ie ANTICHRIST RESTRAINER, CHURCHES whereabouts, ELDERS,WIFE, etc
That’s about it, as its frustrating going over ALL the same stuff as HB say’s.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Yes, I agree to disagree and am happy to leave it at that.
You wrote” Can I get some help here CT? Anyone?
Can you please explain how I have erred here:”
The Erring is that you have not read it THROUGH (for it to be understood in context) to Verse 6 and 7 which clears this position up. imho
Because you identify the restrainer as Satan or UNholy spirit.
YOU DISMISS the REVERSAL in how you understand rolling out… imho
HE cannot come forth or the day of the LORD UNTIL the restrainer is Removed ie Holy spirit in the Churches.
Your argument is reversed on verses 6 & 7 : you asked and I’m not getting into a debate on it as HB as laid it out.. thank you.
v6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.…
v7 only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
ONLY GOD can hold back the… EVIL ONE…As you should know the Devil has been trying to thwart Gods agenda from the beginning .
No difference here the Antichrist can’t wait to have a go but GOD is restraining him UNTIL v7
That’s WHY we pray the Lords prayer and finish with DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE.
Let it be “as it is written”
Maranatha
I was looking for an explanation on the first 3 verses of 2 Thessalonians 2.
Here, let me lay it out simply. Here are the 3 verses I was looking for help on:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
—2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
In verse 2, the “day of Christ” is the antecedent of “that day” in verse 3, meaning, the “day of Christ” is what Paul is referring to when he says “that day”. And HB actually agrees with this if you read her comments.
In verse 1, the “gathering together” is the antecedent of the “day of Christ” in verse 2, meaning, the gathering together, or rapture, is what Paul is referring when he says the “day of Christ” in verse 2.
SO CAN YOU POINT WHERE I HAVE ERRED ANYWHERE ABOVE, IF I HAVE ERRED AT ALL?
You wrote “Here, let me lay it out simply. Here are the 3 verses I was looking for help on:”
“I was looking for an explanation on the first 3 verses of 2 Thessalonians 2.”
and I said : The Erring is that you have not read it THROUGH (for it to be understood in context) to Verse 6 and 7 which clears this position up. imho you dismiss everything said to you ?
You cannot just take one sentence, you have to read it ALL ( includes v6 and v7 to understand it in context)
I said : “Your argument is reversed on verses 6 & 7 : you asked’ and I AM NOT getting into a DEBATE ON IT, as HB as laid it out… thank you.”
You wrote: Yes, I agree to disagree and am happy to leave it at that.
its late here in Oz.
Shalom
I was asking you to parse the first 3 verses, which you obviously will not do. I understand why. The restrainer, in verses 6 and 7, whomever you think it is, is not spoken of in the first 3 verses. I am merely trying to focus on the first 3 verses, but neither of you will parse out those 3 verses because it contradicts a pre-trib rapture.
I am not asking anything that is not too hard for anyone to explain. If you truly believe in a pre-trib rapture, I am asking how do you explain it in light of these 3 verses. I explained my position. Can you not explain yours?
EVIDENCE OF THE DELUSION OF THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE
I present this as a piece of evidence that the pre-trib rapture is a deception that has blinded many in the Church. When someone who is very intelligent and articulate is somehow unable grasp simple logic that is presented before them and makes illogical conclusions about it, then something is wrong. Have they been deluded into believing a lie, resulting in certain blind spots in which their usually fine logic and understanding inexplicably escapes them? I believe that yes, an example of that can be seen in this thread.
In the pre-trib rapture vs. post-trib rapture debate, a key section of Biblical text that validates one of these views and invalidates the other view, is the first 3 verses of 2 Thessalonians 2, which reads as follows:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
—2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
In debating with HumanBeing, I explained my view of a post-trib rapture in relation to these 3 verses and how it invalidates a pre-trib rapture. In part of my argument, which can see in a post above, I said:
“But when Paul mentions “that day” in verse 3, he is referring back to the day spoken of in the previous verse, the “day of Christ”.”
In arguing AGAINST this, the very intelligent HumanBeing inexplicably goes off the rails and says this:
“The Day of Christ is the immediate antecedent of “that day”.”
Notice we are saying the EXACT same thing, yet HumanBeing is somehow persuaded that she has refuted what I said. I submit that this inexplicable, focused loss of logic and reasoning is due to the blindness that is a byproduct of believing the deception of the pre-trib rapture.
No one who believes in a pre-trib rapture has parsed these 3 verses in light of their beliefs. That is all I am asking them to do. But yet, they are unwilling or unable to do so.
So for the record, I will now parse these 3 verses in light of my position and I invite anyone with a pre-trib viewpoint to do the same.
Regarding verses 1, 2, and 3 of 2 Thessalonians 2:
In verse 2, the “day of Christ” is the antecedent of “that day” in verse 3, meaning, the “day of Christ” is what Paul is referring to when he says “that day”.
In verse 1, the “gathering together” is the antecedent of the “day of Christ” in verse 2, meaning, the gathering together, or rapture, is what Paul is referring when he says the “day of Christ” in verse 2.
So putting it all together, Paul says in verse 3 to not let anyone deceive you, for “that day”—the “day of Christ”, when we are gathered together with Him, or the rapture—will not come, except there is a falling away and the antichrist is revealed first.
So the order Paul presents is the antichrist must come first and the rapture occurs AFTER that. And that is the complete opposite order that pre-tribbers claim. They claim the rapture comes first and then the antichrist comes.
You’re truly without any understanding of even what is said to you let alone the eschatology of how it all comes together “as it is written by GOD”, anyone who thinks the Restrainer is SATAN is truly the one deluded.!!
We have answered this directly ,we have shown you the symbolic characters in Revelation and said it to you plainly.
2 Thessalonians 2
HERE IS THE EVIDENCE… IN FULL not some short sentences to force us to agree with you and your UN-Scriptural personal Interpretation of events ….
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
That’s it in context ANYONE can see v7 PRECEDES the Antichrist. as it is written.
SATAN does NOT hold back SATAN .
enuff said
You’re still not addressing the first 3 verses I see.
You wrote “You’re still not addressing the first 3 verses’ ….” I see”.
Yes I did’ you DON”T SEE anything important,and you won’t accept ! ? as v6 supersedes v3 “as it is written”
v3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition
v6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And THEN the lawless one will be revealed.
as it is written v8 AND THEN ……”WHEN” THEN !!… he WILL BE REVEALED.
this flows yours is a 3 card trick on PTR …..viewers beware he’s set a trap if you answer him.
Furthermore ….YOU ALSO… DON’T SEE
The church(es) missing whereabouts during “Jacobs Trouble”
The Elders as relevant
The redeemed around the throne…. out of every Nation
The rapture…. until the END , I thought we where to judge
The crowned ones
The OPEN door in Heaven
The DOOR NEVER OPENS AGAIN…..the 10 Virgin parable during Jacobs trouble.
The Wife (recognize the change)
The saying Y’shua said to John , He (John) will tarry till I COME. when did he come for Him ?
I’m only just getting started I have so much more that you won’t be able to SEE, so I’m restraining myself, as you have been found wanting and won’t accept… “as it is written”
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2 Peter 3. AND he’s taking about…The Day of the Lord.
This is YOU.
How about trying to make your posts a little more coherent CT?
And you still are avoiding addressing the first 3 verses of 2nd Thessalonians 2. Your response was:
“Yes I did’ you DON”T SEE anything important,and you won’t accept ! ? as v6 supersedes v3 “as it is written””
Verse 6 supersedes verse 3? Really?
Some Bible verses supersede others?
So did you cross out verse 3 in your Bible?
No, verses don’t supersede other verses. Verses 3 and 6 in 2 Thessalonians 2 are mutually exclusive.
I understand why neither you nor HB will address the first 3 verses of chapter 2 of 2nd Thessalonians—because it would expose your error. Here is why:
The claim of pre-tribbers is the “falling away” in verse 3 refers to the rapture, because the falling away occurs before the antichrist is revealed. But in examining what Paul says, he is not referring to the “falling away” in verse 3 as the rapture, he is referring to “that day” as the rapture because “that day” in verse 3 refers to the “day of Christ” in verse 2, which refers to the “gathering together” (or the rapture) in verse 1.
… god am 1 23
I said repeatedly you would not accept it in context “as it is written” which is being coherent !!
You have made yourself god as yo will not accept “as it is written” by the WORD OF GOD.
You wrote “So did you cross out verse 3 in your Bible?”
You’ve been answered succinctly over and over… AS IT IS WRITTEN.
NO NEED for All YOUR OWN, POISONOUS, personal explanation of what YOU think this means.
Now lets see what you… crossed out TAKEN AWAY !!! lol
ALL the points I have mentioned in my previous post.
“I understand why”
So you can return to your 3 verses card trick 
You also TAKEN AWAY..
The fact that the Bible is full of testimony regarding WATCHING, LOOKING FOR and waiting on Gods imminent return as a thief in the night
ALL that pertains to the unexpected return of the Lord. (10 Virgin parable)
The Blessed Hope.
Hebrews 9:28
TO THOSE (only) who persistently and patiently wait for him he will appear the second time
“who persistently and patiently wait for him.”
Revelation 3:9 because you have a little power, and have kept My word,
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Revelation 22:18-19
And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy
And the worst thing is you are “TAKING AWAY” the :blessed Hope: from those who as you belligerently call them .. novices………… being the great.. god am 123 you are.
For you say to them “where” “where is this coming” !!! if you will not watch you will be given a potion with the unbelievers . (10 Virgins parable) imho
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Gods Word MUST be accepted AS IT IS WRITTEN. or it will be TAKEN AWAY from you.