Who Is Mystery Babylon?
Who Is Mystery Babylon?
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Friends, one of the most important and least understood pieces of end times prophecy revolves around the identity of Mystery Babylon.
It has been identified by well meaning prophets as either Bagdad Iraq, Mecca, London England, Rome or the Catholic Church, the entire current World Hierarchy under the UN -or a New World Order that springs from this hierarchy, or the United States of America.
Is it possible to find the truth? Are we meant to be confused or surprised? Of course not. What would be our Fathers motive for that? Prophecy is meant to help his children find their way in the wilderness by studying to show themselves approved.
So let us look at Mystery Babylon. To make full disclosure, I believe after years of study that the United States is Mystery Babylon. Let’s break it down.
Is Iraq Babylon?
Many brethren in the literalist camp claim this. These seekers are relying mainly on Revelations 17 and 18, although some also refer to Isaiah 13-14,18,47 along with Jeremiah 50-51. They believe that these verse identify Iraq as the only interpretation of this group of texts as it was the location of ancient Babylon. The problem that haunts literalists, among whom I often count myself, is translation. The translation of ancient eastern texts into modern western language can sometimes be difficult for literalists. If you count yourself in this camp, I encourage you to re read these texts with a concordance handy. You will soon find that the texts ref to a Nation and not a city. If you read the texts the most literally that your concordance will allow, it becomes apparent that they are not referring to a city but to cities- plural. Also to farms and farmers, which in general are few and far between in modern cities (or churches.)
So, if Mystery Babylon is a nation, what descriptions are applied? How can we identify the location in Today’s world? We also MUST be sure all character traits fit, as if they do not,we must be in error. So we cannot cherry pick and choose some while ignoring others. This is a vast task, as there are hundreds of these references in the Bible.
We can however narrow down the list and find about 60 that plainly match up mainly with the United States. Here are some of the key ones below. As you read the list, think if they line up with who you believe Mystery Babylon to be. if they do not, you me ill see that your belief is in error. Anything else means you are choosing your belief over the Word.
1. The Jewish Population. Verses: Jeremiah 50:8,25; 51:6,45 Isaiah 48:20 and Revelation18:4 These all reference the Jewish people living in the future Mystery Babylon. Remember that from the 6th century BC until well after Messiah, a lot, even a majority of Jews lived in Babylon. So where do the majority of Jews live today? Israel? Nope, number two. Russia? Nope, number 3. In fat if we add the Jewish population of Russia to the Jewish population of Israel, we still do not top number one. Who as you probably have guessed is the USA. The most recent reference I could find estimated Iraq as having a Jewish population around 10,000. Oops. Defiantly not looking good for Iraq. Or the Catholic Church. The fact of the Jewish population levels alone indicates the US as Mystery Babylon alone according to some readings of prophecy. But let us not rest on that.
2. One of the main mentions of Mystery Babylon is of a port city. Revelations 18:17-19. Here we see merchant ships approaching a port city in Mystery Babylon when the great fire of Judgement lands. These sailors serve witness. And mourn. Obviously they aren’t destroyed with it. Neither Iraq nor the Catholic Church fit this bill, as neither have a deep water port city which has made the merchants of the world rich. Remember, container ships today are really big. It must be a deep water port. Can you guess a country with a lot of deep water commercial ports on many waters, inland and ocean? One from our list of candidates? Certainly isn’t the Vatican in the middle of the Italian peninsula. One that does enough trade to have made the merchants of the world rich? Hint USA!
3. Which brings us to Mystery Babylon being a source or THE source of wealth for the world’s economy. Isaiah 47:15. Revelation 17:2; Revelation 18: 3, 9, 11-13, 15, 16, 17-19, 22, 23, & 19:2. ok this section alone should put paid to most of the other candidates. These passages identify plainly Mystery Babylon’s place in the end times world. It must be the heart of the worlds economy. Or at least a critical piece of the pie. Look at what the merchants say when they watch the flames! Who was like her? Who is gonna buy our stuff now that she is destroyed? Mecca? Iraq? The Catholic Church? Nope! The USA? Hmm sure looks like it.
4. It is where commodities are traded. Revelations 18:11-13. Let’s take a closer look at these verses. More precious items are traded per day on COMEX than in the rest of the world COMBINED. The trading is so heavy that in one day more gold is traded on COMEX than was traded ever before in all of recorded human history up to 1974! Grain, livestock, on and on. Everything mentioned in the verses is more traded in the USA than anywhere else. If the US economy failed, it is doubtful that any country on earths economy would go unscathed. Most if not all would collapse. There are articles on just this every day. Can the same be said for any other contender for Mystery Babylon?
5. Leading center of import and consumption. Revelation 18: 11, 17-19 lets beat this horse a hair more. mystery Babylon is not just a center of trade. It is also one of the largest importers. When she is destroyed, NO ONE buys their merchandise anymore. A chief consuming nation. A net importer. Of major world nations this ONLY fits the USA.
6. Mystery Babylon is a manufacturing nation. Revelation 18:22 the verse tells us manufacturing is no longer found in her after her destruction. Ergo, before her destruction she was a manufacturer. The Vatican is not known as a manufacturer of goods. Neither is Mecca
7. A Center of Marketing and Merchandising. Revelations 18:3,23;19:2 Again tailor made. Ever hear of a New York Ad Man? What about the other contenders?
8. Will be the enforcer, police, or bully of the whole world. Jeremiah 50:23. Whois the hammer of the whole earth? Rome might have fit the bill centuries ago. Now only one nation does.
9. Known for shows of force. Isaiah 18:1-2. This is a good one. Verse 1 alludes to a powerful Air Force. It talks about displays of naval power, showing the flag, gunboat diplomacy.
These alone should put paid to any other contender for the dubious honor. But here are some more verses to put the nail in the coffin. This following list was sent to me by a brother who wishes to remain anonymous, but is apropos:
”Noted for its elegant, luxurious, refined and rich lifestyles: Isaiah 47: 1-8; Revelation 17: 4-5; 18: 2 –24. Extremely Wealthy: Jeremiah 51:13… Revelation 18: 2-19 Sensual, Materialistic lifestyle: Isaiah 47: 8; Revelation 18:14 The Highest Living Standards: Isaiah 47:1 Revelation 18: 14 Intoxicating high-society lifestyle as a world example to emulate: Revelation 17:2; Revelation 18: 3, 14, 23. Elegant, Sumptuous lifestyle. Revelation 18: 14, 23. Noted for its bright gaudy-colored lights and nightlife with round the-clock partying. Revelation 18:14. Note the words “dainty” and “goodly.” Dainty is a word in Greek that connotes to 24-hour parties, and is connoted with orgies and debauchery. The word for “goodly” is the Greek word “lampra” from which we get the English word for lamp. In this case it carries the idea of bright, gaudy-colored lights, with idea of “glitzy” lights. Could it be the bright lights of Broadway, Times Square or perhaps even Las Vegas? Noted for its Drugs and Drug use: Isaiah 47: 9, 12. Revelation 18:23 Do we even need to comment on this one??? I think not…the text clearly speaks for itself on this one. Noted for exporting its culture abroad: Revelation 18:14, 22 Noted for being Wasteful and Extravagant: Rev 18: 3, 7, 9, 14, 15; implied in Rev 17: 2. Massive Population: Rev. 18:15. And Revelation 17: 1, 15. A land of immigrants: Jeremiah 50:16; 51:13; Rev. 17:1, 15. Unique and awe-inspiring from its birth right up to its demise: Isa. 18: 2 A remarkably different heritage. Isaiah 18:2 Respected-envied and yet HATED by the whole world also. Isa. 18:2 Powerful and Oppressive. Isaiah 18:2 Cosmopolitan and Urban. Jeremiah 50:32 Land of Agriculture. Jeremiah 50: 16 An International City. Revelation 17: 18; 18:15 Architecture, Buildings and Skyline. Isaiah 13:22 Land of Many Waters (fresh waters)> Jeremiah 51:13, 36, 42; Isa 18:1,2 Where the world’s leaders “stream” to meet. Jer. 51:44; Rev. 17:18 Last of the Super Powers. Jeremiah 50:12; Rev 17:18, 19; and in the Revelation 18:18 passage “what city is like the ‘mega’ city”… No Fear of Invasion. Isaiah 47:5, 8; Revelation 18: 7 Defenses reach up to Outer Space Jeremiah 51:53 Occult aspects, especially within the governmental leadership. Isaiah 47: 9, 12,13. Alliances/Treaties allowing physical military bases of operation for the Satanic forces. Revelation 18: 2.
And…Its national symbol: Rev 17. Robed woman with a cup-like container in one hand that smells like natural gas odors inside the container…and the woman is connected to water and immigration…and is considered to be a mother-figure of spiritual prostitution…a.k.a. Ishtar, the mother of ‘literal’ and ‘physical’ prostitutes within religious worship centers. [That is what the Babylonian goddess Ishtar was–the promoter of physical prostitution… salvation by sex… have sex with a temple priest or priestess and you are purified from sin. And of course you pay a ‘gift offering’ for this salvation activity. Ishtar was never a physical ‘mother’… but rather a ‘madam’ over the priestesses. Ishtar was never married and never had a child but she was called “mother” of the temple priestesses. Now having said all of this… I am referring to the Statue of Liberty.
Babylonians first worshipped Ishtar the goddess of Babylon and the Romans also adopted her but they changed the name to Libertas in Latin, (Liberty, in English). So that, the Statue of Liberty is actually a pagan idol image of Ishtar–the woman pictured in Revelation 17. If you don’t believe it…look at Revelation 17: 4 & 5. Note the word for abomination. The word used here is “bdelugma” and its root word is “bdeoh.” Strong’s Code # 946 … ” A foul thing, detestable, usually of idols … the root word means to “break wind”, or to “pass gas”… indicating the odor smells like natural gas.
Speaking of natural gas …did you know that the torch-cup of the Statue of Liberty burns an eternal flame…fueled by smelly natural gas? Also of course, the Statue is referred to as the Mother of Exiles … an immigrant connection…just as the woman of Rev. 17: 1, 15 is also connected to immigrants. So too was Ishtar. She was the goddess of personal freedom … and an encouragement to immigrants. The Messianic Covenant To Abraham Included Babylonia and Babylon America Conquered Iraq in 2003 and retains strategic control of that land and will retain that control most likely until America, the Babylon is destroyed in Divine Judgment as the Mystery Babylon. Regardless of such, the fact that America retains strategic control of the land means that from a prophetic standpoint, America IS Babylon."
Even if you do not wish to SEEE THE TRUTH in all this:
"You may not know, but their is a city named Babylon in New York
Revelation 17:18; & 18: 11-19. Maybe this isn't much in and of itself but, Did you know that when ships coming in to the harbor facilities of New York City make their final approach to the Harbor channel shipping lanes…they have to come in from the south… heading due North straight for the city on Long Island called … BABYLON !!! yup! The city of Babylon, New York features a tall obelisk shaped water tower that ship captains regularly use to navigate directly into the harbor channel. They come within view of Babylon before turning to follow the channel into the ports of New York City. It is from this vantage point that I believe Revelation 18: 17-19 takes place.
From this vantage point…on the deck of a ship…one could quite easily read the letters of the name Babylon on the city water tower! "WELCOME TO BABYLON," proudly emblazoned on an obelisk! How is that literalists!
This is something that theorists who decry the America = Babylon idea can’t match, Because ancient Babylon and the Vatican are not a deep water seaports. They so far away from the ocean that they can not possibly fit the description of Revelation 18: 17-19 But who can… and especially its chief city… a seaport named NYC/Babylon?
What's more? Babylon on Long Island derived its name because immigrant Jews founded it in 1872. The group’s rabbis chose the name almost prophetically, because they believed it would be home to a new diaspora.
Why would they think this? Because rabbinical opinions had held that ancient Babylon’s power would be moved… Zechariah 5: 5-11… and Isaiah 18:1 tells us what direction it would be moving. Isaiah 18:1 says that the spirit of Babylon would move west of the most outermost boundaries of ancient Babylon’s western-most border, beyond the rivers of Ethiopia and Egypt. [That is what is meant by the KJV term “Ethiopia”] By virtue of Isaiah’s point of observation being from Jerusalem…then the direction of movement was westward from Jerusalem…beyond the most outer of Babylon’s oldest boundaries… meaning… the occult power that fueled Babylon would move and take up residence elsewhere in the end times.
Thus, scripture itself proves America is Babylon. Why will our “expert” scholars not accept the scriptural passages on this? Is it due to Pride? Is it due to ignorance? However, it seems to me that their hypocrisy shows.
Early rabbinical writers commented on this well before the time of Christ. They made note that the “mystical woman of Babylon” had moved out of the Babylonian Empire and had been taken westward beyond the ancient boundaries of Babylonia. Those most westward boundaries were considered to be Egypt and Ethiopia. The woman was taken west of those two countries. They noted that the woman would not be found in its old location of Mesopotamia for the fulfillment of the final prophecies, which would be fulfilled at the coming of Messiah.
These rabbinical commentators believed that a future Babylon that was prophesied by Isaiah and Jeremiah would be located west of Egypt and Ethiopia. They believed the woman of Zechariah 5 was headed west of those boundaries and hence out of uttermost regions of Babylonia/Shinar/Chaldea. Yes, they believed she was being taken west of Egypt and Ethiopia in that basket. Why? Note that the observer’s vantage point was already in the land of Shinar.
Shinar is yet another term for the ancient nation of Babylonia or Chaldea. Therefore we must pay attention to that scriptural direction and realize that it must be a new nation that carries the old Babylonian character traits. You’ll note that the verse is indicating it is a different Shinar than the Chaldean or Babylonian land called Shinar. How do we know that? Isaiah 18:1-2 tells us from the observer’s vantage point of Jerusalem that the phrase beyond the rivers of Ethiopia is an ancient idiomatic reference to the farthest borders of Babylon at the time of Cush, father of Nimrod. Nimrod inherited that land from his father and so that Egypt and Ethiopia were the extreme western border of Babylonia or Shinar or Chaldea.
Now, Isaiah is telling us that a future Babylon would exist at the time of the coming of Messiah and it would be located beyond the old Babylonian Empirical boundaries of Egypt and Ethiopia, which was the Cush empire that Nimrod inherited. It too was Shinar. Zechariah is then referencing that the woman is being flown out of Babylonia/Chaldea/Shinar to a new land of Shinar. This confirms what the prophet Isaiah had written earlier concerning a future Babylon being located west of the old Babylon.
There is reportedly a team of archaeological experts preparing to publish the results of many years of work in which they claim to have documentation that the Babylonians occupied North America and Mexico as colonies as early as around 3,000 BC. If this were true then it may further highlight and underscore the reason for these statements made by the prophets and the rabbinical commentaries.
We do know this…that the nation being referred to is none other than the USA”
I could go on, but do not see a reason to. Please evaluate this in light of scripture as opposed to dogma and doctrine. The Statue of Liberty alone proves this as has been documented many times. Come out of her. Leave the USA.
With love
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….Education
Religion
Economics
Politics……
…The four hidden dynasties, that the ‘father of lies’ uses to spread those very lies. This has been going on ever since the first “coveting”, since the Katabole, that caused the ‘Overthrow’ of the first world age.
…These four ‘Dynasties’, are where people MUST place our trust….our confidence, if we are to live in society. Minds with truly evil intent, have, since the very beginning, consistently through the eons, suppressed, altered, hidden, debased, and tried without success to destroy the TRUTH, using these four “hidden” constructs.
Thank you for reading and commenting Maxxy. However your position on my conclusion is ambiguous. The multiple fall theory is not mutually exclusive from the bible. In fact the Gap Theory rests in that assumption, and is one English description of the Greek word Kabatole as it pertains to the bible (in my understanding). The popular and long standing book Earths Earliest Age (available online as well recently reprinted by another retired pastor, Tom Horn.) the whole book is worth reading and very informative despite it having a dispensationalist point of view, which I do not. The whole Kabatole overthrow is worth a look and study. but, It is a confusing area for many which is what fueled the Gnostics heresies as well as some modern sects. And you are right that many have created religious sects by verse slinging and cherry picking. This is why I only promote a whole bible approach to Scripture. The Savior himself warned about this twisting for control, So thank you for reminding us.
I should state that although the Holy Bible is used by many religions, it is not a religion. It is the Word of our Father. Blessings to you.
NO. As with many others today, you are not taking into account the time texts of the scriptures. The mystery Babylon of Rev. 17:5 was Jerusalem of the first century A.D. Please read my posts, especially “The Whore of Babylon”, “Seventy Weeks of Dan. Chap. 9″, “The Beast of Revelation”, and “It’s Not The End of The World – Parts i – X”. Just click on my name.
When John told the people in 65 A.D. that it was the last time (1 John 2:18)… who was listening? Us or them? Who was he speaking to? Us or them? The Christians of the first century A.D. were the ones living in the last times. SO, you have to then ask, “What were the last times about?” They obviously weren’t about the end of the physical world, since John told them they were living in the last times.
Go back to Gen 49:1, and read what Jacob said.
“And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.”
Who Jacob speaking to? His sons, the patriarchs of the tribes of Israel. The last days referred to throughout the OT, and again in the NT were always about the last days of the tribes and nation of Israel. They last days were never a reference to the end of the world.
So, when John told the Christians in 65 A.D. that it was the last time, he was telling them that the Jews and their city Jerusalem who were guilty of the crucifixion of Christ and the persecution of the saints (Christians) was just about to end. The last days were about the passing away of the old covenant with the Jews.
The new covenant was ready to replace the old covenant in the first century, and would be in full effect once the temple in Jerusalem still offering empty sacrifices to God was destroyed. That happened in 70 A.D.
If you put the events in the proper place in time during the first century A.D. you can then see that Jesus rules from the right hand of God now, that the kingdom is here now, that all people who put on Christ through baptism are credited with His righteousness and are already in the New Jerusalem, the spiritual temple, the new covenant, the new heavens and the new earth. See also my post on “Heaven & Earth Have Passed Away”.
People in America and much of western culture do not understand the poetical, metaphorical style of the eastern writing of the Bible. They take much out of context, and miss the representation of the spiritual nature of God’s word. My post titled “Micah’s Prophesy – No More War” points out much of this misconception of the west. Check it out.
Hello Gina, thanks for opening your comment by yelling at me.
Thanks for your comment, however you seem to misunderstand certain things I have said. I have been posting from my phone, and I am an old feller, so I probably didn’t make certain things clear. I am going to quote from your comment, and then reply, I hope that works for you.
“NO. As with many others today, you are not taking into account the time texts of the scriptures. The mystery Babylon of Rev. 17:5 was Jerusalem of the first century A.D. Please read my posts, especially “The Whore of Babylon”, “Seventy Weeks of Dan. Chap. 9″, “The Beast of Revelation”, and “It’s Not The End of The World – Parts i – X”. Just click on my name.”
First let me admit I have not read all your posts. I will try and look at them, thanks for the link. But if your initial premise that Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon it seems to be in error. Here is why, ( by the way this idea comes up every few years from people who are dispensationalist.) Ezek. 5:9 reads, “And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like”. The context will show that this verse has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar. But please note, Our Father said the He would “not do any more the like”. In other words, we read here His promise that He will never again destroy Jerusalem.
It is clear however, that mystery Babylon will indeed be destroyed by Him. This verse alone should prove that Jerusalem is not mystery Babylon. There are many more if you need them.
“When John told the people in 65 A.D. that it was the last time (1 John 2:18)… who was listening? Us or them? Who was he speaking to? Us or them? The Christians of the first century A.D. were the ones living in the last times. SO, you have to then ask, “What were the last times about?” They obviously weren’t about the end of the physical world, since John told them they were living in the last times.”
Interesting that you chose 1 John 2:18 let us look at it:
1 John 2: “18 Little children, it is the last hour: (here John is speaking about the end to come, much as you or I might say “ok, it’s tomorrow and we…” He is setting up his statements subject.) and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; (in the end there will be THE antichrists, just like in there time there are smaller versions.)whereby we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us. And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and ye know all the things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and because no lie is of the truth.”
1 John 2:18-21 ASV
http://bible.com/12/1jn.2.18-21.asv
Ok so that’s easily misunderstood. It actually is easier to understand in the Greek. Here it is again without my comments inserted.
“Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us. And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and ye know all the things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and because no lie is of the truth.”
1 John 2:18-21 ASV
http://bible.com/12/1jn.2.18-21.asv
It’s easy to see your mistake now that it is pointed out, right. Don’t worry, it comes easier as you get older.
“Go back to Gen 49:1, and read what Jacob said.
“And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.”
Who Jacob speaking to? His sons, the patriarchs of the tribes of Israel. The last days referred to throughout the OT, and again in the NT were always about the last days of the tribes and nation of Israel. They last days were never a reference to the end of the world.”
Ok, I do not understand your references, of course he was speaking to the Hebrews. We become Hebrew in Messiah when we choose him. Grafted in as we say. And the post I put up was not about the End of the world, which occurs at the end of the millennial reign, but of the destruction of Mystery Babylon.
“So, when John told the Christians in 65 A.D. that it was the last time, he was telling them that the Jews and their city Jerusalem who were guilty of the crucifixion of Christ and the persecution of the saints (Christians) was just about to end. The last days were about the passing away of the old covenant with the Jews. ”
So here is the crux of your misunderstanding. You have bough ten into the dispensationalist heresy. That our father is not the same yesterday today and tomorrow, but that he changes up every once in a while. The Renewed covenant is STILL WITH THE HEBREWS! But gentile believers may be grafted in. Let us look at the scripture that gives us the term “new covenant”
“Behold, the days come, says YHWH, that I will make a renewed (chadash) covenant (brit) with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, says YHWH: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says YHWH, I will put my Torah in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
We have used the original Hebrew in parts to help you out. Please feel free to use a concordance to check it for yourself. Use your concordance friend Gina. We are warned not to teach in error. You wouldn’t want a millstone necklace would you?
“The new covenant was ready to replace the old covenant in the first century, and would be in full effect once the temple in Jerusalem still offering empty sacrifices to God was destroyed. That happened in 70 A.D. ”
ok , we already looked at the new covenant bit. But as to empty sacrifices, that is not for you to say. The apostle Paul wrote about paying for temple sacrifices for himself and others. And we are told repeatedly there will be sacrifices in the millennial kingdom.
Some passages like Isaiah 56:6-8; Zechariah 14:16; and Jeremiah 33:15-18.
The passage that is the most extensive, giving the greatest detail, is Ezekiel 43:18-46:24. It should be noted that this is part of a greater passage dealing with the millennial kingdom, a passage that begins with Ezekiel 40. In Ezekiel 40, the Lord begins to give details of the temple that will exist during the millennial kingdom, a temple that dwarfs all other temples previously built, even Herod’s
After giving details concerning the size and appearance of the temple and the altar, the Lord then begins to give detailed instruction as to the animal sacrifices that will be offered (Ezekiel 43:18-27). In chapter 44, the Lord gives instructions as to who will be offering sacrifices to the Lord. The Lord states that all of the Levites will not be offering blood and fat to the Lord due to previous sin; it will be those from the lineage of Zadok (verse 15). Chapters 45 and 46 continue to mention that animal sacrifices will be made.
So although Our Messiahs sacrifice is our eternal SIN sacrifice, Our father will still be receiving them after the second coming.
“If you put the events in the proper place in time during the first century A.D. you can then see that Jesus rules from the right hand of God now, that the kingdom is here now, that all people who put on Christ through baptism are credited with His righteousness and are already in the New Jerusalem, the spiritual temple, the new covenant, the new heavens and the new earth. See also my post on “Heaven & Earth Have Passed Away”.”
We’re I a different fellow I might return your shouted NO here, but I will refrain.
“People in America and much of western culture do not understand the poetical, metaphorical style of the eastern writing of the Bible. They take much out of context, and miss the representation of the spiritual nature of God’s word. My post titled “Micah’s Prophesy – No More War” points out much of this misconception of the west. Check it out.”
You obviously need to heed your own advice on this. Prayerfully. I will pray for you, and those you may have unintentionally deceived. And I will refer you to the Holy Bible as I do not have any tracts I have written to supersede it. Thank you again for commenting.
I am trying to unravel the jumbled thoughts you have strung together. Can you not see the words you are quoting from the Scriptures? You have stated they are clear, but your thoughts are winding other meanings into what should be their plain meaning.
Do you really mean to say that the prophesy of Ez. 5 only had one application? That God only destroyed Jerusalem once in the Babylonian captivity, and that He meant to never destroy it again? Do you mean really to say that there was not a double prophesy in Ez. 5, just as there are in many of the OT prophesies?
If you truly believe that God would never destroy Jerusalem again after Nebuchadnezzar did, then what meaning do you place upon it’s utter destruction, and the complete tearing down of the temple in A.D. 70?
Rev. 17:5 concerns a woman who wore two titles. “…MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” Both titles were on her forehead, so both names apply to the same woman.
Rev. 17:5 is a reference back to Ez. 23 where God is speaking of two whores that he identifies as Samaria and Jerusalem, who are whoring after other nations and turning their back on their covenant promise to God. God addresses Samaria’s sins in Ez. 23:5-10, and picks up with the deeper sins of Jerusalem in verses 11 – 35. Notice especially v. 17.
“And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.”
Jerusalem was the whore of Babylon. Jerusalem was the woman of Revelation 17. The woman was “the great city” where our Lord was crucified (Rev. 11:8), and was the woman who was filled with the fornication with the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:2), who was riding the beast (Rev 17:3), and who was guilty of the blood of the saints (Rev. 17:6), the great city of Rev 17:18 who reigned over the kings of the earth because of her fornication and influence with them, and the great city of Rev. 18:19 who in one hour was made desolate. Her adultery and fornications infected everyone she dealt with.
Jerusalem was the great city of Jer. 22:8 -
” And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this great city?”
and of Rev. 18:9,10 -
“And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.”
God did not have a covenant relation with any other nation, nor any other great city. The only city that had a covenant relation with God, a marriage with God, that could be called an adulteress and a whore, who turned her back on God was Jerusalem!
I do not think it can be said any clearer than God has already said it. I am not a dispensationalist. I am attempting to point out the lies spread by the dispensationalists and the Zionists who promote the false belief that Jerusalem had to be rebuilt, so that a third temple could be rebuilt, so that Jesus would come a “second time”. That belief is a deliberate twisting of God’s word that denies He already came in the judgment against Jerusalem in A.D. 70!
Hey there Gina. I understand it is hard to follow straight logic for some people’s minds are wired different. I am sorry you are having problems. I will try to simplify things for you as best I can. The problem is you believe scripture is mainly metaphoric as you have stated! I however tend to take them at their base level. I guess I am just a simple fellow. Back in seminary I used to have an instructor who seemed to talk in circles and one day it just clicked for me. Perhaps it can for you as well.
You asked:”Do you really mean to say that the prophesy of Ez. 5 only had one application? That God only destroyed Jerusalem once in the Babylonian captivity, and that He meant to never destroy it again? Do you mean really to say that there was not a double prophesy in Ez. 5, just as there are in many of the OT prophesies? ”
In order to understand this, you must stop thinking of our Father as a poet, and start thinking of him as well, our Father. this is what our savior instructed us to do. It is not “our poet who are in heaven” after all. The pillage of Jerusalem was a spanking, not an execution. Not only did the city remain inhabited, some Jews even remained. This would mean that either you are mistaken about Revelations 18 applying here, or the scripture was a lie. You will of course understand if I choose to believe inerrant scripture over your interpretation.
You continue:
“If you truly believe that God would never destroy Jerusalem again after Nebuchadnezzar did, then what meaning do you place upon it’s utter destruction, and the complete tearing down of the temple in A.D. 70? ”
That was a severe spanking. As stated above. Yes the temple was torn down, but the city was not abandoned for all time.
You state: “Rev. 17:5 concerns a woman who wore two titles. “…MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” Both titles were on her forehead, so both names apply to the same woman. ”
I fail to see how this refutes what I said.As to:
“Rev. 17:5 is a reference back to Ez. 23 where God is speaking of two whores that he identifies as Samaria and Jerusalem, who are whoring after other nations and turning their back on their covenant promise to God. God addresses Samaria’s sins in Ez. 23:5-10, and picks up with the deeper sins of Jerusalem in verses 11 – 35. Notice especially v. 17.
“And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.”
Jerusalem was the whore of Babylon. Jerusalem was the woman of Revelation 17. The woman was “the great city” where our Lord was crucified (Rev. 11:8), and was the woman who was filled with the fornication with the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:2), who was riding the beast (Rev 17:3), and who was guilty of the blood of the saints (Rev. 17:6), the great city of Rev 17:18 who reigned over the kings of the earth because of her fornication and influence with them, and the great city of Rev. 18:19 who in one hour was made desolate. Her adultery and fornications infected everyone she dealt with.
Jerusalem was the great city of Jer. 22:8 -
” And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this great city?”
and of Rev. 18:9,10 -
“And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.”
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say in one breath that prophecy can pertain to two things, and then later say see, prophecy only relates to this one thing. And by the way, you are also mistaken. At the time of the destruction was Jerusalem the center of the Earth? No, it was a subjugated vassel state of Rome.
Your next statement:
“God did not have a covenant relation with any other nation, nor any other great city. The only city that had a covenant relation with God, a marriage with God, that could be called an adulteress and a whore, who turned her back on God was Jerusalem!”
You need to look into the dedication of the newly formed Nation of the United States in a vigil by the founding fathers in the then capital of NYC in a chapel that was located where the World Trade Center stood if you believe that. But, even without that, the main dwelling place of the Jewish people today is the United States. Does the land of a nation sin? Of course not, it’s people do. This is all very simple. And no confusing metaphors need be used.
You continue:
“I do not think it can be said any clearer than God has already said it. ”
I agree.
“I am not a dispensationalist. I am attempting to point out the lies spread by the dispensationalists ”
I am not sure that you know what a dispensationalist is as you use their arguments and language.
As for:
“and the Zionists who promote the false belief that Jerusalem had to be rebuilt, so that a third temple could be rebuilt, so that Jesus would come a “second time”. That belief is a deliberate twisting of God’s word that denies He already came in the judgment against Jerusalem in A.D. 70!”
If a Zionist is someone who believes that the Hebrews are entitled to the land Given them by promise of Our Father forever, then anyone who is not wants their creator to be a liar… Weird!
I have already shown the truth of the 70 AD event. The temple is spurious to this conversation. Thank you for continuing to comment. The more you talk about these things with folks who not only read the whole bible, but also teach it plainly and logically, the deeper you will grow in his word. I have great hope for your growth, and will continue to pray for you in His name.
Mac
There are no Hebrews you brain dead retard.
Even Jews keep pointing this out.
And there is no Biblical support for any Israel outside Christ who is also the only temple.
“There are no Hebrews you brain dead retard. Even Jews keep pointing this out.”
That’s like saying: “There are no Americans, you hooplehead. Even New Yorker’s keep pointing this out.”
You did that on purpose, didn’t you, you sly Ishmaelite.
(Pleas pardon the errant apostrophe.)
(…and the neglected ‘e’. Must be too much meatsauce on my fingers from eating dead cow all day.
/religion/2016/01/what-bible-says-about-eating-meat-video-must-see-2501094.html )
Friend im Aden, I am sure we all appreciate your levity, but just so that any other believers do not think what you have said is true about biblical support for the land being given to the Hebrews for ALL TIME by the Father, here are some verses:
Exodus 23:30-31 ESV
Little by little I will drive them out from before you, until you have increased and possess the land. And I will set your border from the Red Sea to the Sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the Euphrates, for I will give the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you.
Ezekiel 47:13-23 ESV
Thus says the Lord God: “This is the boundary by which you shall divide the land for inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions. And you shall divide equally what I swore to give to your fathers. This land shall fall to you as your inheritance. “This shall be the boundary of the land: On the north side, from the Great Sea by way of Hethlon to Lebo-hamath, and on to Zedad, Berothah, Sibraim (which lies on the border between Damascus and Hamath), as far as Hazer-hatticon, which is on the border of Hauran. So the boundary shall run from the sea to Hazar-enan, which is on the northern border of Damascus, with the border of Hamath to the north. This shall be the north side. …
Numbers 34:1-12 ESV
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Command the people of Israel, and say to them, When you enter the land of Canaan (this is the land that shall fall to you for an inheritance, the land of Canaan as defined by its borders), your south side shall be from the wilderness of Zin alongside Edom, and your southern border shall run from the end of the Salt Sea on the east. And your border shall turn south of the ascent of Akrabbim, and cross to Zin, and its limit shall be south of Kadesh-barnea. Then it shall go on to Hazar-addar, and pass along to Azmon. And the border shall turn from Azmon to the Brook of Egypt, and its limit shall be at the sea. …
Ezekiel 37:26-28 ESV
I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”
Joshua 1:4 ESV
From the wilderness and this Lebanon as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites to the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun shall be your territory.
Exodus 23:31 ESV
And I will set your border from the Red Sea to the Sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the Euphrates, for I will give the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you.
Ezekiel 47:18 ESV
“On the east side, the boundary shall run between Hauran and Damascus; along the Jordan between Gilead and the land of Israel; to the eastern sea and as far as Tamar. This shall be the east side.
Ezekiel 37:14 ESV /
And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the Lord.”
Genesis 15:18-21 ESV
On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”
Ezekiel 47:20-23 ESV
“On the west side, the Great Sea shall be the boundary to a point opposite Lebo-hamath. This shall be the west side. “So you shall divide this land among you according to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the sojourners who reside among you and have had children among you. They shall be to you as native-born children of Israel. With you they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe the sojourner resides, there you shall assign him his inheritance, declares the Lord God.
Jeremiah 49:2 ESV
Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will cause the battle cry to be heard against Rabbah of the Ammonites; it shall become a desolate mound, and its villages shall be burned with fire; then Israel shall dispossess those who dispossessed him, says the Lord.
Genesis 12:1-3 ESV
Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Obadiah 1:20 ESV
The exiles of this host of the people of Israel shall possess the land of the Canaanites as far as Zarephath, and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in Sepharad shall possess the cities of the Negeb.
Ezekiel 47:20 ESV
“On the west side, the Great Sea shall be the boundary to a point opposite Lebo-hamath. This shall be the west side.
Ezekiel 47:19 ESV
“On the south side, it shall run from Tamar as far as the waters of Meribah-kadesh, from there along the Brook of Egypt to the Great Sea. This shall be the south side.
Ezekiel 47:17 ESV
So the boundary shall run from the sea to Hazar-enan, which is on the northern border of Damascus, with the border of Hamath to the north. This shall be the north side.
Ezekiel 47:1-23 ESV
Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar. Then he brought me out by way of the north gate and led me around on the outside to the outer gate that faces toward the east; and behold, the water was trickling out on the south side. Going on eastward with a measuring line in his hand, the man measured a thousand cubits, and then led me through the water, and it was ankle-deep. Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was knee-deep. Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was waist-deep. Again he measured a thousand, and it was a river that I could not pass through, for the water had risen. It was deep enough to swim in, a river that could not be passed through. …
Ezekiel 37:21 ESV
Then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land.
Isaiah 17:3 ESV
The fortress will disappear from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus; and the remnant of Syria will be like the glory of the children of Israel, declares the Lord of hosts.
Deuteronomy 2:9 ESV
And the Lord said to me, ‘Do not harass Moab or contend with them in battle, for I will not give you any of their land for a possession, because I have given Ar to the people of Lot for a possession.’
Deuteronomy 2:1-37 ESV
“Then we turned and journeyed into the wilderness in the direction of the Red Sea, as the Lord told me. And for many days we traveled around Mount Seir. Then the Lord said to me, ‘You have been traveling around this mountain country long enough. Turn northward and command the people, “You are about to pass through the territory of your brothers, the people of Esau, who live in Seir; and they will be afraid of you. So be very careful. Do not contend with them, for I will not give you any of their land, no, not so much as for the sole of the foot to tread on, because I have given Mount Seir to Esau as a possession. …
Deuteronomy 1:8 ESV
See, I have set the land before you. Go in and take possession of the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them and to their offspring after them.’
there are a few more, but this should suffice. As far as who the Jewish people see as the Hebrews, see this link from that most Jewish of organizations Chabad:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/800868/jewish/Who-Are-the-Hebrews.htm
Spoiler alert, they say Jews are the Hebrews. As to me being special, my mother in law would probably agree. peace and blessings to you and yours.
But Mac,
What are you missing? (Familial ties notwithstanding) He said to the House of Jacob:
Deuteronomy 28:15
But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all His commandments and His statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.
And then for the next 48 verses, He explained to them in no small detail what would befall them if they failed to obey the agreement they had made with Him – the Covenant. At the end of which, He said this:
“And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.”
And so Israel was indeed plucked off of the land He had given to them. Now someone is living there saying that it is rightfully theirs. That someone is pretending to be Jacob just as Jacob once pretended to be him. And you seem to be defending him. Is he Israel indeed? Is he not the very brood of sojourners the Almighty warned about within the very verses just mentioned?
Deuteronomy 28:43-44
The sojourner who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. He shall lend to you, and you shall not lend to him. He shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.
This ‘sojourner’ who is among Jacob is mentioned throughout, and is in several places mentioned by name.
“Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.”
“And by the sword you shall live, and shall serve your brother; and it shall come to pass when you shall have the dominion, that you shall break his yoke from off your neck.”
Brother Beef, thank you for this question. I feel it is an important one that may be to big for a comment box. Let me try to nutshell it with the promise of a full post soon.
There are two kinds of sojourner told of in the Old Testament, and a directive (Ephesians 2:19) in the New. Understanding of the differences is key. In Hebrew there are actually two words used.
Suffice it to say, when the Israelites left Egypt, there went with them other slaves, sojourners who became heirs to the covenant with them, as equals AS LONG AS THEY KEPT TORAH! They even received equal lands in the promised land, and equal death in the dessert for disobedience.
As for those residing in Israel today, those who keep the covenant have as much right to be there as those who keep the new covenant. Remember there is no waiting period or conversion classes in the bible. If you choose him and begin to live his way, by the old covenant OR the renewed covenant, you are a Hebrew biblically regardless of your bloodline. In the tribulation, those who are living under the old covenant shall be given understanding of messiah, and he shall be their path to salvation. Getting hung up on ethnicity or as the bible puts it “foolish geaneolgy”. Is a distraction in our time. Those who follow messiah are our brothers and sisters. Those who keep Torah without the understanding of Messiah YET are too. We are grafted in to HEBREW TREE. Not the other way around. If non ethnic Jews are there and keeping covenant then THEY ARE TOO, right? And we are blessed to know messiah now. Regardless of OUR BLOODLINES. What a blessing!
The gog Magog war will be the spanking for those living in The Land that are not keeping either covenant, or are adding in things like Kabbalah or Talmudic takanot. then all these genealogical issues can be put to rest. The Karite Jews living in the Land is one group that has already put aside Talmud and is waiting on Messiah. He will be there for them. He promised.
He plucked them off the land as he promised, yet another time out, and he is gathering back as he promised, albeit with some thorns, or even mostly thorns, but this is all as foretold. Just because our Father took away a prized possession, doesn’t mean they won’t get it back when the time out is over. He in fact said he would.
I hope this isn’t confusing as I have written, as it is past my bedtime. I am not saying salvation is possible without messiah. But I promise I will put it plainer soon.
Praying for blessings in your life
Mac
“Suffice it to say, when the Israelites left Egypt, there went with them other slaves, sojourners who became heirs to the covenant with them, as equals AS LONG AS THEY KEPT TORAH!”
No doubt, that is what the Word teaches.
“As for those residing in Israel today, those who keep the covenant have as much right to be there as those who keep the new covenant.”
Here we do not see eye-to-eye at all. Firstly, the Old Covenant has passed and is no more, having been replaced (or renewed) by the Covenant instituted by Messiah on the night before He died. [This is a point which the Roman Rite has recently re-confirmed that they intentionally misconstrue, teaching that there are multiple routs by which we might be saved and in fact ‘Christians’ should not be evangelizing ‘Jews.’ The only argument that gives this notion any support, would be the argument that the Old Covenant still abides. However, God has spoken on that matter and He has spoken clearly.] But perhaps more importantly still, is the fact that when God gives that land to His people, He always lets them know that it is time for them to begin occupying the land and He brings them into the land Himself. Mac, I would not let so much as one of my toes touch the soil of that land unless He had extended His personal invitation to me, one way or another, that I should do so. He says most clearly in the Scriptures that when it is time for Israel and Judah to return, He will be leading them into the land. He will be gathering the remnant of those houses from the four corners of the Earth. Is that what we see today? Hardly. The Balfour Declaration and the whim and diktat of the United Nations are a far cry from the waters of the Jordan standing still to let the Israelites pass. The point is this – He has not extended His invitation to ANYONE to be in that land at the present. It is therefore extremely presumptuous, not to mention foolhardy and dangerous (as we will soon see), for anyone to be living there at the present, whether Judah in fact or in fiction.
“Remember there is no waiting period or conversion classes in the bible.”
Lay hands on no man suddenly. But I do agree with your point here – although I think it misses the bigger picture: Conversion to the Way does nothing to give us the right to occupy that land until HE tells us to occupy it. Right now it should be empty. It should be empty even of Palestinians. It should be vacant – no exceptions. The prophets knew it would not be.
“In the tribulation, those who are living under the old covenant shall be given understanding of messiah, and he shall be their path to salvation.”
You would have a very difficult time defending this statement with support from the Word of God. Bear in mind that when He refers to latter descendants of the Tribe of Judah, He is not referring to those who say they are Jews and are not. Even if you insist that authentic Judah is living in Palestine, you must consider the possibility that they are impostors because that is what Scripture says they are. Moreover, Scripture tells us they are Edomites and that Esau has made his move to seize that land to use it for his own lusts and desires – to cast it out for a prey:
Ezekiel 36:5
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of My jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed My land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
If your response to this verse (and there are many verses like it) is to argue that this speaks only of events now historical, I would remind you that prophecies of this kind have their fulfillments: first imperfect and then broader perfect. The LORD speaks twice, yet men perceive it not.
“Getting hung up on ethnicity or as the bible puts it “foolish geaneolgy” Is a distraction in our time.”
Given the context of what Paul was saying there (1 Timothy 1:4 and Titus 3:9), it is foolish for us to imagine our own bloodlines impart much (if anything) by way of virtue or righteousness to us. But Paul said nothing about our ignoring the prophetic implications of latter day descendants of the Patriarchs and their relatives. The identities of Jacob and Esau play an enormous part in latter day prophecy. It would therefore be unwise of us to simply ignore the implications. The prophecies and their implications are tools for our guidance and our learning.
“Those who follow messiah are our brothers and sisters.”
That is exactly so. And this is true of any race or bloodline, even Edomite blood, as Scripture makes perfectly clear.
“Those who keep Torah without the understanding of Messiah YET are too.”
Brother, I would argue that none such exists anywhere in this world. There are none who keep Torah, save for those who seek after the Way of Messiah the KING.
“We are grafted in to HEBREW TREE.”
Should the branches be aware of their past? Should the branches know whether they be native or wild branches? I would argue that they don’t necessarily have to. But I would argue also that some have been led to pay attention to the prophetic implications of latter day descent from one line or another. Are we able in this time to identify Jacob? I suggest that we are indeed. I suggest that, despite centuries of new generations, God has provided for our ability to discern at a glance, if we are so inclined, the differences between the nations. We might not know the difference between Naphtali and Simeon to look at them today, but we can certainly know the difference between Jacob and Philistia. We can certainly know the difference between Jacob and Cush. And (I suggest) we can even know the difference between Jacob and his twin brother Esau, albeit perhaps not always at first glance. Are you a wild branch or a native branch? Do you even want to know? Perhaps you don’t. In the final equation I would agree that it makes little difference. But for now, there are very good reasons for us to be interested in the differences amongst the nations which have NOT been grafted in. We should know who is who. Learning who is who, is the best method by which we may account for why the world is the way it is. It is also the best way for us to learn why the nations act as we see them acting. It is the very best way for us to lay bare their motives.
“If non ethnic Jews are there and keeping covenant then THEY ARE TOO, right?”
There is no one keeping that Old Covenant, Mac. No one.
“The Karite Jews living in the Land is one group that has already put aside Talmud and is waiting on Messiah. He will be there for them. He promised.”
Karaites are different only insofar as they reject certain tenets of rabbinic teaching. Apart from that and their own calendar, what makes them different from Sephardic or Ashkenazi ‘Jews’? Their dress code?
“He plucked them off the land as he promised, yet another time out, and he is gathering back as he promised, albeit with some thorns, or even mostly thorns, but this is all as foretold.”
Oh? Where is it foretold that He would bring an admixture of Messiah-denying reprobates back into the land He kicked them out of for being Messiah-denying reprobates? Consistency, Mac. We look for consistency at times like this. If God has done as you say He is doing, then He is not being consistent. I am aware of nothing in Scripture to which you might point in support of your contention. After long and considerable hours spent in contemplation of this very issue, I find only verses in the Word which teach the opposite of that which you here suggest. No one is being brought back into that land with His blessing except the proven and refined remnant. All others are reprobate silver and are in for a very, very rude awakening. This is NOT to say, however, that there is no one in that land who believes in Messiah the KING. We know that there are those who believe. But we also know they are not the rule but are the exception to the rule.
“Just because our Father took away a prized possession, doesn’t mean they won’t get it back when the time out is over. He in fact said he would.”
He said He would give it back, Mac. But He was very clear about how that would happen. He was clear about exactly whom it was He would be bringing back and He was clear about the circumstances under which that return would occur. Search the Word. The usurpers living in the land at the present meet exactly none of the prerequisites. There is abundant material in the verses of Scripture which we have at our disposal for the right-answering of this question. We need not look to our opinions or our traditions. We need not look to the teachings of men or the widely accepted narrative heaped on us from our time as small children. We look to the Word for our answers and only to the Word, or we look amiss.
“I am not saying salvation is possible without messiah. But I promise I will put it plainer soon.”
You make yourself perfectly understandable, Mac. And so does God. The solution to this issue is actually a simple one. It is simple. It is not easy. Consider.
“The last days referred to throughout the OT, and again in the NT were always about the last days of the tribes and nation of Israel. They last days were never a reference to the end of the world.”
Gina, if you could prove that with Scripture, you’d have something to sell. But the problem is you haven’t. And you won’t. Because you can’t.
There is a reason a week (SHABUA) has seven days.
See the Apostle Peter about that.
There is a reason the process of salvation and restoration is broken down into ages.
See the Apostle Paul about that.
Just to be clear…
I definitely believe that God needs to come in judgment soon against America, England, Rome, Israel, and all those in league under their designs for one world government, one world rule, one world religion. Because all of their wickedness, murders, theft, lies, deceit needs to be dealt with.
Every judgment day of the Lord is a coming of the Lord. The futurists who say that Jesus has not come yet, that we are still waiting for His “second” coming are denying his rule now, and denying that He comes in judgment as and when He needs to. I don’t know how many times He has come in judgment since A.D. 70, but I don’t limit it two just two times. He rules and is in control of all.
We need to recognize that the coming spoken of in the NT, the last days spoken of in both the OT and the NT were the last days of the old covenant that were waxing old and ready to pass away in that first century A.D. By denying his judgment upon Israel in A.D. 70 as His promised second appearance in that generation, you deny that He established His kingdom when He said He would. You deny that His kingdom is with us now, and that denial is a base denial of Christ.
It leads others to conclude that when Christ said the time was at hand in that first century A.D., and you say He didn’t come, then they conclude Christ lied. That is blasphemy, and is a stumbling block to lead others astray.
“We need to recognize that the coming spoken of in the NT, the last days spoken of in both the OT and the NT were the last days of the old covenant that were waxing old and ready to pass away in that first century A.D…”
We need to recognize? Speak for yourself, sister. That’s not how a case is made. The waxing old of the Covenant is incomparable to the promise of His return in the clouds. And the Word has made clear how and when we should be expecting Him – any and all claims of what we should be recognizing notwithstanding. Timing is important. Two Days, Two Thousand Years and the space of about two thousand cubits all tell a vastly different story from the one you would feign force people to believe.
“By denying his judgment upon Israel in A.D. 70 as His promised second appearance in that generation, you deny that He established His kingdom when He said He would.”
False. His Kingdom is not yet established as He promised it would be. Any fool should be able to look out of a window anywhere in this world and see that clearly for what it is. Do the nations flow to Jerusalem to hear the teaching which emanates therefrom? Is the highest mountain in the world Mount Zion in Jerusalem? Do the nations presently all observe the Feast of Tabernacles? Does Messiah RULE the nations with a Rod of Iron? Where are His resurrected saints? Where were the two witnesses? Where were the men who could not die for five months? Where was the ANTI-Messiah who drove the entire world (as in the entire world) into a smoking wilderness of ruin? When were all the cities of the world flattened by a massive earthquake? When did the Mount of Olives cleave in twain and reveal a new swath of land, previously unseen by man?
Your problem is this, Gina: He did tell us when He would be returning. It is plainly written in the Word, if we will but look. His return has not happened yet. But He is not running late. He is exactly on time according to the schedule He gave us in Scripture. Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura make this argument invincible to any other.
We are told to wait on Him. Scripture made clear when the latter days would be. Scripture made clear the very length of time involved from the beginning to the end of this age. You have misconstrued what is written and you have made it your mission to disseminate a flawed and dangerous personal interpretation of the Word of God.
Let the Word do the speaking.
Perhaps it would be good for you to take some time, and just read the entire bible straight through. I know it is big, but it would be very good for you. Don’t jump about, read one book at a time. As you read, do not imagine this to be some book of poetry that needs to be unraveled for deeper meaning. Instead, think of it as a letter from a father to his children. Is there metaphor in the scripture? Yes. But it is not MAINLY metaphorical.
There are two comings of the savior told of in both the Old Testament AND the New. The Jews call them Messiah Ben Joeseph, and Messiah Ben David. We saints (believers in the New Testament) believe it to be the first and second coming of Yeshua also called Jesus. This is plainly taught. As you will find if you heed my advice.
As far as denial, you Ned to read revelations again, then this will make sense., part of revelation deals directly with the time where our Messiah renters Heaven after his accession. Then we are told what will happen at during and after the tribulation.
It is good you worry over leading others astray. I worry over your creating your own faith with these ideas you seem to be channeling. Prayerfully yours in the blood of the redeemer, your friend
Moron
Still confusing your TV Guide with the Bible I see.
Im Aden;
Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
That means STOP CALLING EVERYONE SUCH VILE AND EVIL NAMES. Did you ever stop to think that every name you call these people, can probably be applied to YOU?
What on earth do you think I meant by ANCESTORS. Adam and Eve as everyones (rude names for them included) parents. On both sides.
Rather than simply call humans slaves in a context where those who think they are better than anyone who ever was a slave I chose to call them a rude word used of people who in the media are singled out as slaves.
When Adam and Eve fell it was because they listened to the creature. Were shafted by the creature into becoming its slave rather than trust in their creator.
So I was saying that the most EVIL thing in existence, Satan, was a slave owner.
I was just joking about God slouching about on the 7th day because obviously He let Adam and Eve make their own choices.
It was a joke flippant post.
It’s the 8TH Beast THAT SITS ON MANY WATERS
Only 3 countries left w/o ROTHSCHILD Central Bank!
http://www.fourwinds10.net/siterun_data/government/banking_and_taxation_irs_and_insurance/social_security/news.php?q=1320062234
Complete List of BANKS Owned or Controlled by the Rothschild
http://humansarefree.com/2013/11/complete-list-of-banks-ownedcontrolled.html
Thanks for your comment on the eighth. Although I do not see where the banking ng fits in. Let us just let the Word. Speak. For itself.
Thanks for your input. I. Think
We should just let the Word,speak for itself. Bible > KJV > Revelation 17
◄ Revelation 17 ►
King James Bible
The Woman on the Beast
1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
The Mystery Explained
7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
The Victory of the Lamb
14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
King James Bible
Text courtesy of BibleProtector.com
Section Headings Courtesy INT Bible
© 2012, Used by Permission
Bible Hub
Revelation 16Revelation 18Top of PageTop of Page
Babylon the Great, or as you call it, Mystery Babylon, is ALL religions and governments of the world. The LARGEST part of Babylon the Great is comprised of ALL sects/denominations of Christendom, which is a counterfeit copy of the one true faith taught by Jesus, the ORIGINAL Christianity taught to first century Christians. It is NOT a nation.
Hello Friend Mike. Thanks for joining our discussion. Your statement as it lies is not an uncommon belief, most strongly spread by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And there is indeed dirt on the robes of all organized religions and governments. However that does not automatically qualify them as Mystery Babylon anymore than somebody who is anti Christ is THE Antichrist.
I have plainly stated why I believe what I have shown to be true using scripture, Please show your side the same way.
I am sure you understand if I or anyone else will fail to believe just because Mike says it is so. I look forward to discussing this with you further when you are ready with scripture. Blessings to you friend Mike.
Mac;
everything taught by God’s witnesses is DIRECTLY FROM GOD’S WORD, THE BIBLE. They are not just “JW” beliefs, they are God’s teachings. The organization is no sect or denomination of Christendom though. not an organized religion as you think of them. The society is nothing more than a society of ministers of God. There is no doctrine their own, no churches, no clergy, no hierarchy, no collections, only ministers all, who do exactly as the first century Christians were taught, and did. God’s word, however, does identify Babylon the Great as the governments and religions of the world. Compare the beliefs of the pagan religions of babylon to the beliefs of Christendom, and you will see a large number of paralells. Then compare them to what first century Christians believed and did. You will not find those paralells. If one were to research, carefully and accurately, through scripture and secular history, you can see clearly the advance of pagan beliefs being injected into Christendom. They started in earnest in the early fourth century, and persist to this day.
Hello Mike, Peace brother, you had No need to be defensive, I had said nothing negative about your organization. And I am sad to see you offered defense for an imagined slight, and an advertisement for your group, yet no scripture refuting the position I have outlined. Nor any establishing yours! Why is that?
That being said, I now have to comment on your new statements. I hope you understand, I wish no ill to you or yours, I just cannot allow untruths to lie in a conversation about Our Fathers work.
you stated: “everything taught by God’s witnesses is DIRECTLY FROM GOD’S WORD, THE BIBLE. They are not just “JW” beliefs, they are God’s teachings. ”
Your statement is passionate but it has no meat. If you are teaching from the Word, please share chapter and verse so we may all be taught. Remembering it is a mortal sin to teach contrary to Scripture.
You continue:
“The organization is no sect or denomination of Christendom though. not an organized religion as you think of them. The society is nothing more than a society of ministers of God. There is no doctrine their own, no churches, no clergy, no hierarchy, no collections, only ministers all, who do exactly as the first century Christians were taught, and did. God’s word, ”
As to not being a sect or denomination, that is a silly statement as proven by any dictionary. We will all pretend you didn’t say that so we can continue our conversation. the Watchtower Bible And Tract Society is one of the most successful money making operations of all time. Ostensibly a Nicolation style assembly (many hierarchical layers, with one person or group setting doctrine for all) which in itself is anti scriptural. there are many different layers of Witness from “students” a low level believer, not baptized or allowed to evangelize without supervision, to baptized brother required to attend five meetings a week along with personal study with a more experienced mentor. Here you are also expected to go in service which is what the group calls evangelizing. Then a pioneer. A set amount of evangelizing hours a week, for pay. There are also elders, and boards and full time pioneers, and an overseer. That is just in one congregation, then there is a host of district positions and then circuit positions and then country, and on and on. All being paid from the pioneer level on. It is the amway of bible. Every member tithes and a collection box, while not passed, is in every church (Kingdom Hall) that you say you do not have, yet we all have seen. No deviation from the espoused doctrine ( that you say you do not have) is allowed, and questioning the smallest point results in shunning and disfellowshipping (excommunication). Unlike first century saints, which kept Torah, and Saturday sabbath, and allowed only elder, deacon, priest, bishop. Which you say you live like, but do not. Witnesses are among the nicest, loving, giving people. The church however is not. The books and periodicals have made them the most successful fund raising system in history. With the U.K. witnesses Alone (where the are bound by law to report) raising in excess of TEN BILLION US DOLLARS ANNUALLY! No one knows what is done with this money as they rarely help non Witness poor, widows, or orphans. Although they do occasionally help in international level disasters. Which of course is not what the bible says. The witnesses may have more paid clergy than any other church. And their real estate business dwarfs the paper trade. Remember Mike, I can prove all of this if you need documentation.
You continue. “However, does identify Babylon the Great as the governments and religions of the world. “.
Chapter and verse please
“Compare the beliefs of the pagan religions of babylon to the beliefs of Christendom, and you will see a large number of paralells. Then compare them to what first century Christians believed and did. You will not find those paralells. ”
Yes First Century believers kept the Biblical feasts as commanded by Torah, which they also kept. Witnesses do not, although they have invented their own version of Passover which they call Nison 14. Many other churches keep some or all of these. From Shabbat, to Feasts, to full Torah with Christ as King and high priest. And all different combinations of these. Not witnesses though
“If one were to research, carefully and accurately, through scripture and secular history, you can see clearly the advance of pagan beliefs being injected into Christendom. They started in earnest in the early fourth century, and persist to this day.”
This is the only truth in your entire statement. Remember, I only responded to what you said. I had no wish to disclose the dirt of your church. You forced my hand. Please show me any scripture you have to the contrary. With love in my heart for you and yours Mike. Hoping you make it out of Babylon.
Mac;
I, in the previous reply, was not being defensive, and I am sorry if it was perceived by you that it was. It’s not intended though.
And as to providing chapter and verse, would it not be better for me to hope YOU would look up in God’s word, the Bible, what I’ve stated? Take the Beroeans mentioned in the Bible’s example. They checked, daily, the scriptures, to see if what they were being taught was true. I suggest doing the same. If I quote a scripture, you know it for a moment, but if you look for yourself, you will always remember it. It is the habit of Christendom’s religions to quote one scripture to make a point. Rarely is that a beneficial tactic. It generally takes MANY scriptures to make a point using God’s word.
Your postulation that God’s Earthly witnesses have invented their own passover is not true. Nisan 14 was the evening before the Christ’s murder by Jews, over money. Jesus commanded the visibly holy spirit annointed Christians, the first of the 144,000, to commemorate his death, and never to pay any mind to the day of his birth. It is only holy spirit annointed Christians who are to partake in the emblems of wine and bread, and only once a year, on Nisan 14.
You claim that we have a church. We do not. You claim we are a sect, we are not. And the entire post to which you replied is completely accurate, but not with regard to Christendom’s teachings. Christendom is a bunch of sects that are nothing more than counterfeit copies of the original one true faith, the ORIGINAL Christianity, Jesus came to teach. Those sects came to be to CHANGE the original Christianity, and change it they absolutely did. It’s filled with man’s teachings, replacing many of God’s. It makes no sense to be part of a copy of the original Christianity instead of the ORIGINAL Christianity, which still exists today. God’s Earthly organization, Jehovah’s Witnesses, are that original Christianity. Their entire organizational structure is directly from God’s word. Their teachings as well are directly from God’s word, with nothing added or taken away. What they do is directly from God’s word also. You claim there is “dirt” of our organization. IF there’s dirt, it’s in the scriptures. None can be found, so obviously, this dirt of yours is from Christendom, wishing to disparage and persecute the organization. Each accusation against them has been always proven false, and an attempt at smearing them. NEVER has there ever been any conviction for ANY of the charges against them. Almost all such charges were always dismissed. Those that weren’t were settled as it’s quicker, cheaper, and easier to do so, rather than a long drawn out and expensive court battle. Each of the charges you call “dirt” has only served to strengthen the brothers in the society.
As far as “making it out of Babylon”, I did that at the age of 9, when I left, permanently, the RCC. The RCC is the FIRST sect of Christendom having been formed by a pagan in the fourth century. But thanks for the sentiment.
Mike
“Take the Beroeans mentioned in the Bible’s example. They checked, daily, the scriptures,”
here is truth! WOW Mike for once we agree!! with the exception that it was the Bereans
yes they did check the scriptures — the only Holy Scriptures were the Law and the Prophets, Psalms — Mike you know the scriptures, the Torah that teaches the Sabbath that teaches the 7 Holy Feasts of God and the Holy Commandments.
What we call the Old Testament is all they had!
and they checked what they were taught against the only WORD of God in existence. And the JW’s do not follow the Torah.
Your JW translation, translated by human men, was not available for another 1900 years so they for sure did not check with that.
Truthseeker;
God’s servants, His witnesses, do NOT EXCLUDE ANY SCRIPTURES. For you to claim so means you know very little about them at all.
mike
Are you prohibited from quoting scriptures by the JW’s?
As long as you have been on BIN I can not remember you ever offering a scripture as proof of anything. not once!
Are you Under the control the top heads, the top folks that tell you what you can and can not do??
From what i have read these big boys are in trouble with the law concerning kids, I have no actual knowledge only what I saw one of your big guys say in a statement to all the folks that run around door to door.
Mike I answer to only two, my Father and His Son. I follow no man.
I learned long ago there is not one good — no not one!
KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
====
God breathed.
Truthevader;
YOUR POST:
Are you prohibited from quoting scriptures by the JW’s?
WHO WOULD DO SUCH PROHIBITING? THAT QUESTION IS NOTHING SHORT OF QUITE WEIRD.
As long as you have been on BIN I can not remember you ever offering a scripture as proof of anything. not once!
THEN YOUR MEMORY IS EXCEEDINGLY SHORT.
Are you Under the control the top heads, the top folks that tell you what you can and can not do??
WHAT “TOP HEADS” ARE YOU REFERRING TO? IN THE SOCIETY NO SUCH TOP HEADS EXIST. NO ONE TELLS ANYONE IN THE SOCIETY WHAT THEY CAN AND CAN NOT DO. I AM SURE YOU DIDN’T READ THIS IN THE SCRIPTURES. EVERYTHING WE BELIEVE, DO, PREACH, TEACH, AND OUR ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE IS CONTAINED IN GOD’S WORD. IT IS EXACTLY AS FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANS BEHAVED, TAUGHT, PREACHED, AND LIVED. WE DO EXACTLY THE SAME. YOU WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT US, IT’S IN THE SCRIPTURES.
From what i have read these big boys are in trouble with the law concerning kids, I have no actual knowledge only what I saw one of your big guys say in a statement to all the folks that run around door to door.
THERE ARE NO “BIG BOYS”, AND NO ONE OF THE ANNOINTED REMNANT ARE IN ANY TROUBLE WITH ANY LAW. ANY STORIES YOU’VE READ ABOUT THAT OR KIDS IS NOTHING MORE THAN AN ATTEMPT AT DISPARAGING THEM. AD HOMINEM ATTACKS ALL. ALL CHARGES, EVER, AGAINST ANYONE IN THE SOCIETY HAVE ALL BEEN PROVEN COMPLETELY FALSE, ALWAYS. AND ALL WITNESSES FOR GOD PREACH DOOR TO DOOR, EXACTLY AS JESUS DID, AND TAUGHT HIS APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES TO DO. WE ARE WARNING OF THE KINGDOM, AND MAKING DISCIPLES AS JESUS TAUGHT US TO DO.
Mike I answer to only two, my Father and His Son. I follow no man.
I learned long ago there is not one good — no not one!
YOU ARE NOT TELLING THE TRUTH. YOU DO NOT FOLLOW GOD OR HIS SON. YOUR BELIEFS COME FROM MAN AND FROM RELIGIONS CREATED BY MEN. YOUR MISTAKEN CLAIMS ABOUT JW’S COME FROM MEN WHO WOULD SEE US ALL DESTROYED, AS THEY WORK FOR SATAN. WE WORK FOR GOD. WE ARE NO PART OF THE WORLD, AND THE WORLD HATES WHAT IS NOT IT’S OWN.
YOUR CONTINUED DISGUSTING QUESTIONS PROVE WHAT I’VE SAID ABOUT YOU FOLLOWING MEN BECAUSE YOUR QUESTIONS ADDRESS FALSEHOODS COMING FROM THOSE OPPOSED TO US, GOD, AND JESUS. YOU DEMONSTRATE AN ADHERENCE TO THEIR ATTEMPTS. YOU BELIEVE WHAT MEN TEACH AND REJECT WHAT GOD TEACHES. I HAVE NEVER POSTED ANYTHING THAT WAS NOT EXACTLY WHAT GOD SAYS TO US AND YOU ALWAYS SAY IT’S TWISTED. GOD TWISTS NOTHING, NOR DO HIS WITNESSES, EVER. YOUR POSTS REGARDING WHAT YOU CLAIM GOD’S WORD SAYS DEFINATELY HAVE BEEN TWISTED ALL OUT OF SHAPE. YOU ARE WAY OFF BASE.
No they are beliefs taught by the Watchtower.
Which just like all of the prophetic dates and health issues that have been changed many many times are false.
The JW had to publish their own Bible to try to justify there twisted lies.
Amminadab;
The Watchtower is a MAGAZINE. It doesn’t teach, it discusses many things, mostly from the scriptures, ACCURATELY. Health issues? Now you’re drifting into the twilight zone. False? No, nothing in the magazine is false.
The society published an accurate translation because one was NEEDED. None existed anywhere, except maybe Young’s, and it’s not all correct. The society HAS NO TWISTED LIES. To claim as much, means you believe God’s word is twisted lies, because all the witnesses believe COMES STRAIGHT FROM GOD’S WORD, THE BIBLE. The NWT was NOT published to match anything except the ORIGINAL SCROLLS AND TEXTS. And it does that EXACTLY correctly. You can’t understand that, because you’ve NEVER seen an accurate translation of God’s word. You’ve only seen mistranslated versions. And you have no way of knowing that, as demonstrated by your complete ignoring of the teachings in God’s word, specifically, about loving your neighbor, God, truth and honesty, and reviling others. You either have no idea what they say, or you choose to DELIBERATELY ignore God’s commands in those regards. I believe it to be BOTH.
mike
according to the net your sect was not begun until 1872, thus your translation could not have been printed until much later.
So exactly what did the followers of Jesus Christ study until your founder Charles Taze Russell in 1872 got around to translating and printing your version of the Bible?
mike lots of problems here.
Truthevader;
It is not a sect. It is a group of millions who practice the ORIGINAL one true faith Jesus taught. All of Christendom are the sects, the copies, the COUNTERFEIT copies.
My version of the Bible? It’s not a “version”. People like you OBLJECTED To the Septuagent, then the Latin Vulgate, then the King James and Tyndale translations. The NWT of 1963 removed the false spurious texts ADDED by King James and his parliament, and REPLACED the 7,000 MISSING appearances of God’s NAME, not His TITLE, which is God. Those translations were supposed to be attempts to bring God’s word to people in a language they COULD UNDERSTAND, and could REACH THEIR HEARTS. The NWT put it into MODERN ENGLISH thus allowing it to be understood without all the thees and thous, and making it possible for the modern English speaking world to understand the word of God in a language THEY UNDERSTOOD. It is as objected to as all the others, by people LIKE YOU. It is apparent that you do not want God’s word to REACH ANYONE’S HEART in a language they understand. The NWT was carefully translated from original scrolls to reflect EXACTLY what God’s word was inspired to be. You OBJECT to God’s word. You OBJECT to anyone understanding it, and you OBJECT to anyone’s heart being touched by it. Therefore you OBJECT to God Himself, clearly, plainly, and viciously. You must have a reason for objecting to God and His message to us, and it can only be to SUPPORT God’s opposer, Satan.
savage-mike
“group of millions”‘ — the catholics have over a billion and you know what i think of them.
Mike I do not know why I bother?
The best description of you, in my mind, you are selling fluff with not one specific. “we are great” “we are the only ones” “they are trying to reach your heart” — WOW I am impressed and under whelmed .
mikeee my heart is staying in my chest pumping blood as it was created to do and none of you folks are allowed to touch it.
Truthevader;
Yes, I understand you don’t want ‘God’s undeserved kindness to ever touch your heart, but why would you not want ANYONE ELSE to draw close to Jehovah God? If you can’t have it, no one can, is that it? If you cannot love God, no one else should be allowed to either? Is that your position?
Truthevader;
Your post:
according to the net your sect was not begun until 1872, thus your translation could not have been printed until much later.
THE SOCIETY IS NOT A SECT.
So exactly what did the followers of Jesus Christ study until your founder Charles Taze Russell in 1872 got around to translating and printing your version of the Bible?
THE CHRISTIANITY TAUGHT BY JESUS WAS NOT FUNDED BY CHARLES RUSSEL IN 1872. IT WAS FOUNDED BY JESUS IN 33 C.E.
RUSSEL DID NOT TRANSLATE OR PRINT THE NWT. IT’S NOT A VERSION, IT’S A TRANSLATION ADHERING ACCURATELY TO ALL THE ORIGINAL SCROLLS. THE KJV CAN BE CONSIDERED A VERSIONM, SINCE IT ADDS SPURIOUS LINES OF TEXT EVERYWHERE, AND CHANGES THE TRANSLATION OF WORDS INTO THINGS THEY DO NOT TRANSLATE INTO.
mike lots of problems here.
YES, THE PROBLEM IS YOU AND ALL WHO THINK AS YOU DO, NOT WANTING A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, AND THEREFORE NOT WANTING ANYONE ELSE TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM EITHER. THAT’S ACTUALLY TWO PROBLEMS. WHY NOT WORRY ABOUT YOURSELF, AND LEAVE THE REST OF THE WORLD ALONE. IF THEY CHOOSE TO KNOW ACCURATELY WHAT GOD’S INSPIRED WORD SAYS, IT’S THEIR RIGHT TO DO SO. IT’S NOT UP TO YOU TO PREVENT IT, OR TO TELL THEM THEY SHOULD BE LIKE YOU, AND REJECT GOD.
savage mike
a relationship according to your dictates !!! I pass.
Truthevader;
What is a relationship with God according to my dictates? That’s a figment of your imagination. It is according to GOD’S dictates. But still you pass, I know that already. You want NO RELATIONSHIP with God. It is your belief that NO ONE should have a relationship that is of concern. You want to die, yes, I know. But why would you want EVERYONE to die? That’s not right. Just because you don’t like God doesn’t mean no one should. You’re not only suicidal, but murderous as well. Wanting all to die because you want it for yourself, IS murder. And you KNOW this is against God’s will. You still think the ten commandments of the law covenant are still law, and have said so many times. They are not law any more. We obey them because we WANT to , not because we are forced to. The law covenant ENDED. There is so much you do not understand that it’s quite sad, but that’s no reason to attempt to impose your misunderstanding on others. You really should fix that you know.
Truthevader;
“group of millions”‘ — the catholics have over a billion and you know what i think of them.
YEP, IT’S OVER A BILLION WHO WILL BE DESTROYED AS A RESULT. SAD.
Mike I do not know why I bother?
The best description of you, in my mind, you are selling fluff with not one specific. “we are great” “we are the only ones” “they are trying to reach your heart” — WOW I am impressed and under whelmed .
I SELL NOTHING, MUCH LESS YOUR FLUFF. NO ONE SAYS “WE ARE GREAT, WE ARE THE ONLY ONES”, AND NONE OF US ARE TRYING TO REACH YOUR HEART. IT’S GOD’S WORD THAT SHOULD TOUCH YOUR HEART YOU TWIT.
mikeee my heart is staying in my chest pumping blood as it was created to do and none of you folks are allowed to touch it.
AGAIN, I KNOW YOU DON’T WANT GOD OR HIS WORD TO REACH YOUR HEART. NONE OF US WANT TO TOUCH ANYONE’S HEART. IT IS GOD WHO WANTS TO TOUCH YOUR HEART. YOUR INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE WRITTEN WORD IS HEAVILY DOCUMENTED IN THIS BLOG, AS IS YOUR INABILITY TO ALLOW GOD TO DO THE SAME. YOU REJECT HIM TOTALLY FOR SOME REASON ONLY YOU AND GOD KNOW. HE SEES EXACTLY WHAT IS IN YOUR HEART, YOUR THOUGHTS, AND YOUR REJECTION OF HIM.
Truthtrasher;
You DO seem to be they type of person who NEVER does any personal honest research. You rely on the internet, which is the WORST place for research regarding God and His inspired word, or His only begotten son, the firstborn of creation and our Christ.
What did Jesus’ disciples study before 1872? If you have to ask that, I feel quite sorry for you. They studied the same thing then, as they do today, the inspired word of God.
The NWT is not a “version”, it’s a translation. It’s just like all the other translations ever produced. It’s an effort to allow God’s word to be understood by it’s readers. It’s something everyone has always rejected, from the 1500′s till today. You’re NO DIFFERENT from the servants of Satan then, who rejected any attempt to teach God’s word. They didn’t want it then, you don’t want it now.
Problems, yes. But you can get around your problems if you change, and become honest, and study God’s word, and pray for discernment, and repent of your hideous behavior.
MikeSavage is an agent of the devil and is working feverishly to build an exclusive earthly kingdom for himself and his brothers. Listen to this bloated crab in a barrel and risk being pulled down into the squirming pile.
He assumes for himself much authority with he does not posses and has never been given. He cannot point to the scriptures to support his outlandish claims.
Only an agent of the devil would claim Jesus already returned to the hidden eyes of just one sect.
Only an agent of the devil would claim Jesus is an angel and not God himself.
Only the hypocritical agent or priest of Nimrod himself would set a pack of “smoothtalking locusts like MikeSavage upon the world”… such as his illuminated masonic church founder Charles Russell Taze
There is no light in Savage under any of his accusatory hypocritical pseudonyms.
Gus;
Agent of the devil? Are you totally insane? I think so. I am God’s minister, and follow ALL of His commands, doing the ENTIRE WILL OF GOD, all day, every day, without any exceptions. You cannot even claim to KNOW what the will of God IS, much less do any of it. You certainly do insult God in all of your posts. You disparage His word or His servants, it’s the SAME as doing it to Him. You make yourself God’s ENEMY with every word you post.
Your post:
“MikeSavage is an agent of the devil and is working feverishly to build an exclusive earthly kingdom for himself and his brothers. Listen to this bloated crab in a barrel and risk being pulled down into the squirming pile.
NOPE GUS, NO ONE IN OUR ORGANIZATION IS BUILDING ANYTHING FOR HIM OR HERSELF, ALL GLORY AND HONOR BELONGS ONLY TO GOD. YOU SEEK TO GLORIFY SATAN FOR SOME REASON, NOT GOD.
He assumes for himself much authority with he does not posses and has never been given. He cannot point to the scriptures to support his outlandish claims.
I ASSUME NO AUTHORITY FOR MYSELF, AND YES, I CAN POINT TO ANY SCRIPTURE I WANT. I KNOW THE SCRIPTURES FRONT TO BACK, YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT EVEN ONE OF THEM MEANS, YET CLAIM YOU DO. HYPOCRITE!
Only an agent of the devil would claim Jesus already returned to the hidden eyes of just one sect.
GOD’S WITNESSES AREN’T A SECT, THEY ARE THE ORIGINAL CHRISTIANITY. IT’S THE COPIES TO WHICH YOU BELONG THAT ARE THE SECTS. LOOK UP THE MEANING OF THE WORD SECT.
THE WORD OF GOD SAYS WHEN JESUS RETURNED, YOU JUST REFUSE TO ACCEPT GOD’S WORD FOR ANYTHING.
Only an agent of the devil would claim Jesus is an angel and not God himself.
YOUR ANTICHRIST COMMENT HERE IS VERY BAD. JESUS IS THE FIRST ANGEL, THE SON OF GOD, AND HE IS NOT HIS OWN FATHER. YOU’RE NUTS.
Only the hypocritical agent or priest of Nimrod himself would set a pack of “smoothtalking locusts like MikeSavage upon the world”… such as his illuminated masonic church founder Charles Russell Taze
MR. RUSSEL HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH MASONS, AND STARTED NO CHURCH, MORE LIES FROM YOUR OWN IMAGINATION, WHICH IS LIMITED TO THAT OF A SMALL CHILD.
There is no light in Savage under any of his accusatory hypocritical pseudonyms.
I DON’T ACCUSE ANYONE EVER OF ANYTHING.
MikeSavage is an agent of the devil and is working feverishly to build an exclusive earthly kingdom for himself and his brothers. Listen to this bloated crab in a barrel and risk being pulled down into the squirming pile.
He assumes for himself much authority with he does not posses and has never been given. He cannot point to the scriptures to support his outlandish claims.
Only an agent of the devil would claim Jesus already returned to the hidden eyes of just one sect.
Only an agent of the devil would claim Jesus is an angel and not God himself.
Only the hypocritical agent or priest of Nimrod himself would set a pack of “smoothtalking locusts like MikeSavage upon the world”… such as his illuminated masonic church founder Charles Russell Taze
There is no light in Savage under any of his accusatory hypocritical pseudonyms.
ONLY AN AGENT OF SATAN WOULD LIE ABOUT GOD, HIS SON, HIS SERVANTS, AND HIS WORD AS YOU HAVE SO THOROUGHLY DONE HERE. I SUGGEST YOU REPENT AND TURN AROUND, AND DRAW CLOSE TO GOD. YOU MUST BECOME HONEST FIRST. THAT’S THE HARDEST PART FOR YOU, BUT IT’S POSSIBLE.
Emery/Savage proudly proclaims…
“I am God’s minister,”
… not a minister of God but God’s minister. Clearly he feels himself special and set apart over and above mere believers because he went on to say…
“You cannot even claim to KNOW what the will of God IS,”
… which implies that Emery/Savage does know the will of God. Perhaps he does but better than anyone else? I don’t think so.
Emery/Savages error is in conflating the set aside priesthood/ministry that Aaron and his sons were appointed to with the modern biblical concept of ministering. Which would be sound, if a little presumptuous, except we have the NT whereby it is seen that all believers are of the royal priesthood/ministry (1Peter 2:9-10).
Believers no longer need some guy to stand between them and God, other than Jesus, and can approach God’s throne of grace with boldness to find grace to help in time of need (Hebrews 4:16).
People of faith are warned about such prideful boasting (Matt 23:12) and the dangers that stem from such behaviour (Proverbs 11:2) and can be assured that their time to fall will come (Proverbs 16:18).
Emery/Savage imagines himself equal with Jesus whereas he isn’t even worthy to wash Messiah’s feet.
TruthTrasher;
Your millions of Catholics, and YOU are NOT God’s servants, ministers, or honest people. They are of no concern to me if they act as you do. You reject God and His teachings, Jesus and HIS teachings with every fiber of your being. You disparage His servants as well, as do your millions of Catholics. You and they are part of FALSE RELIGION, use FALSE TRANSLATIONS, and hate anyone who uses an ACCURATE translation, and who RIGHTEOUSLY worships God.
mayhem;
Truly, you are a stupid one. Here’s a quote from your recent post:
““I am God’s minister,”
… not a minister of God but God’s minister. Clearly he feels himself special and set apart over and above mere believers because he went on to say…
YES, GOD OWNS ALL OF HIS MINISTERS, AND WE ARE ALL SPECIAL IN THAT GOD HAS A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH US.
“You cannot even claim to KNOW what the will of God IS,”
… which implies that Emery/Savage does know the will of God. Perhaps he does but better than anyone else? I don’t think so.
YES, WE ALL KNOW THE ENTIRE WILL OF GOD, SINCE WE ALL KNOW THE ENTIRETY OF HIS INSPIRED WORD, SOMETHING YOU CANNOT EVEN HOPE TO CLAIM ON YOUR PRESENT PATH.
Emery/Savages error is in conflating the set aside priesthood/ministry that Aaron and his sons were appointed to with the modern biblical concept of ministering. Which would be sound, if a little presumptuous, except we have the NT whereby it is seen that all believers are of the royal priesthood/ministry (1Peter 2:9-10)”
THE PRIESTHOOD OF AARON IS ENDED, AS IS THE LAW COVENANT, AND THE NATION OF ISRAEL AS BEING GOD’S CHOSEN NATION. THEY BROKE THE COVENANT HUNDREDS OF TIMES. IF YOU WANT TO POST THINGS, TRY TO MAKE IT THE TRUTH, BECAUSE YOU HAVE MISERABLY FAILED AT THIS IN EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOUR POSTS TO DATE. YOU ARE QUITE CLUELESS, YET PASS YOURSELF OFF AS BEING KNOWLEDGEABLE. THAT IS EXTREMELY DISHONEST.
Amminadab;
Your lack of knowledge is a great stumbling block for you and most who adhere to false copies of first century Christianity, known as the sects and denominations of Christendom. In your extensive LACK of knowledge, you should realize some things so that your vile comments may cease. I doubt they will since you do NOT adhere to God’s word and teachings in any way as regards behavior and love of neighbor and God. So, bear in mind your hatred of the NWT is TOTALLY UNFOUNDED. You know nothing about it, so you hate it. Remember, Jesus said that the world hates what is not it’s own. You follow that prophecy perfectly. All who saw the Septuagent being created from Armamaic and ancient Hebrew hated it as well. Then they hated the Latin translations. They were translated so that people could read God’s word in a language familar to them. It reached their hearts in that way. Then it was translated into old English by William Tyndale, and they hated it so much, they killed, hung, and burned him for his efforts. Sounds like you and Truthevader and many others here. The King James version was then created by a KING and his parliament, ADDING spurious texts and mistranslating many words, and many hated it as well. It became popular to this day though. That was done in 1611 in a version of English that at the time was OUTDATED. In 1963 the first NWT was produced IN MODERN ENGLISH, RESTORING the MISSING personal name of God that was removed with the creation of the KJV in 1611. It also clarified many texts, removed the spurious texts, and ACCURATELY translated the thousands of words that were mistranslated in it’s version. In 2013 a new NWT was created further putting the texts into current modern English, and refining the translation of many words and using the most recently found ancients texts, put it into ACCURATE paralell with the original intent of God’s inspiration to it’s writers. Today, you and many others hate it as well, and for no more reason than you were instructed to do so. If you allowed God’s word to touch your heart, you would NEVER feel so. A person HONESTLY interested in God’s word and what He has to say to us wouldn’t feel as you do, as regards a new translation. The latest NWT is the single most accurate, and easy to understand translation ever created, making it MUCH EASIER for all people of all levels of education to understand it, and to allow it to touch their hearts. But of course, you OBJECT to allowing God’s word to touch ANYONE’S heart. It goes against your false religion, and your lack of love for your fellow man, and your lack of love for God. It is His will that the NWT, and all other translations were created, so that His word could reach the hearts of all who read them. You OBJECT to God’s will, especially in this regard. Are you mistakenly under the impression that you are pleasing God? Does fear of displeasing God evade you so thoroughly? Does it not matter to you what you are causing God to think of you? It seems not.
Hello Friend Mike. Thanks for joining our discussion. Your statement as it lies is not an uncommon belief, most strongly spread by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And there is indeed dirt on the robes of all organized religions and governments. However that does not automatically qualify them as Mystery Babylon anymore than somebody who is anti Christ is THE Antichrist.
I have plainly stated why I believe what I have shown to be true using scripture, Please show your side the same way.
I am sure you understand if I or anyone else will fail to believe just because Mike from. BIN says it is so. I look forward to discussing this with you further when you are ready with scripture. Blessings to you friend Mike.
Mac;
You’re not one of my one on one students, so posting a scripture or there would be emulating false religions, who relish doing the same, taking them out of context, and interpreting them, against God’s will. So I will not engage in that. I WILL encourage YOU to research God’s word. It’s easy and can be done online through sites like BibleGateway.com or others like it. If I post a scripture explaining it to make a point, you forget it almost immediately, also> if YOU RESEARCH IT, you will be more likely to remember it because you did it yourself. Jesus did say several times he HATED this sect and that sect. He spoke against churches many times. He called them Babylon the Great to John on Patmos. I suggest the NWt for this research. If you read a post I made above this post, discussing the NWT to Amminadab, a sda adherent, you can see why I suggest it.
babylon is satan-owned, satan-controlled big government.
the whore of babylon is satan-owned, satan-controlled big religion, the religious establishment.
they work together as a team to keep the human race deceived and under strict control.
jknbt;
you had better be cautious making statements like that here. Beef, Truthevader, and Amminadab will ATTACK you mercilessly for stating what you’ve stated. If one posts something they don’t agree with, they are like rabid wolves.
Savage
You are only one (quite possibly on BIN) who gathers in an external community of rules.
Im Aden;
Did you mean I’m Aden?
And, what is an “external community of rules”? It makes little sense. Explain. What I posted IS true however. These people reject God’s word, they reject the ability of God’s word to reach one’s heart, and they reject anyone who does not believe their mistaken understanding of God’s word. they attack anyone believing anything different from what they believe. They also display NO love for their fellow man at all. PROVING they reject God’s word. They are terrible hypocrites.
“And, what is an “external community of rules”? It makes little sense”
He’s talking about your church fellowship you “pine-cone with ears”.
You are likened unto the man who keeps saying “what low bridge? what low bridge?” only to walk into face first.
Gus;
You need to mind your own business. I didn’t ask you that question.