Rapture? When? (Part 2) "Left Behind"
LEFT BEHIND
Before I do anything i want to thank everyone who commented on that first article for keeping the comments civil and above the belt 
You guys rock Some of you guys laid out mountains of info which I haven’t been able to answer. I am not ignoring you. I am trying to lay this stuff out in bite sized chunks so we can avoid the confusion that inevitably gets in if we get too much on the table at one time. Eventually I hope we can get to all of it, but for now I feel the need to stick with the fundamentals in small bites. Those comments may come in very useful later when we widen our scope to begin taking in the big picture. Keep ‘em coming even if I don’t get to address them immediately.
We left off the first installment of this series by concluding that Revelation Chapter 20 identifies clearly when the first resurrection takes place, and subsequently when everyone else not included in the first resurrection gets their turn. If you want to catch up, you can find that article here:
/prophecy/2016/05/rapture-when-2480919.html
What I’d really like to get to is I Thessalonians 5:9 because that passage seems to be one of the biggest hurdles we’re going to have to overcome as we come to terms what the Bible actually says about where we are and what we’re doing when His wrath begins to manifest in the Earth. Lets take a quick look at it now, with a promise to dig deeper later on.
_____
I Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
_____
Let me state here, that I believe every word of that verse. We are NOT appointed to wrath. God’s wrath is visited on the rebellious, not the children. His children do get disciplined, but discipline is designed to cleanse and correct, not destroy. Wrath involves the destruction of those who persistently refuse to acknowledge God. What I hope you can begin to consider while we’re working toward a more detailed treatment is the possibility that God just might have a way to preserve us from the effects of His wrath even though we remain present on the earth while it is being poured out. Once we get a foundation laid, I think it will be clear that we MUST be here during the time of His wrath, and that we will rise above all of it.
Before we get to that, I think it’s important to delve into this “left behind” idea. The idea that the righteous are “taken” and the unrighteous are “left behind” is so widespread in our day I think it important we address it early in our attempt to lay a Biblical foundation for our understanding of the rapture.
As most of you probably know, the very popular “Left Behind” books and movies by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins were the primary reason this idea got driven so deeply into the modern Christian mindset. The passage it comes from is found in two verses of Matthew Chapter 24, which is one of the most important passages dealing with eschatology we have. It is where Jesus Himself gives His clearest revelation of what to expect from the end times. Lets look at those two verses:
Matthew 24
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
These two verses speak of two groups. One group is taken and one is “left behind”. Obviously, the pre-tribulation rapture viewpoint assumes that the righteous are taken up to escape God’s wrath, while the rebellious are left behind to endure it.
But these two verses have been removed from their context. If we put them back in context, do they still bear the weight of that interpretation? Lets find out. Lets grab the verses preceeding this passage and see what we find.
Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
Jesus opens this part of His answer to His disciple’s question “What will be the sign of Your coming” (found in verse 3) by drawing our eyes to “the days of Noah”. By implication He is encouraging us to look to the story of Noah for clues and similarities with the time He will be returning. In verse 38 He begins to go into more detail in which Noah enters the ark and the flood, a time of His wrath in the earth, came and TOOK….who? The rebellious, right? Watch that word “took”, its key. If it was the rebellious who got taken, who got left behind?
Now lets look at verses 40 and 41 again, in context this time. If Jesus is continuing the same topic by expanding on it with another example (and I believe that is exactly what He is doing), is it likely He would completely shift gears and use the words “taken” and “left” in exactly the opposite way He had just used them a mere sentence before? Please, go back and read the text again.
Isn’t it more likely that He used those words in verses 40 and 41 in exactly the same way He used them in verse 39? Does this passage really support the idea that the righteous are “taken” and the unrighteous are the ones “left behind”?
If you’re like I was when I first studied this in context you’re probably feeling like someone just kicked you in the gut. This blew me away because I had to come to terms with the fact I’d not only been wrong in my understanding of these verses, but I’d been 180 degrees wrong…as in totally backwards.
Can I reassure you of something here? This is not a disaster. It’s Truth. It’s not pleasant to have longstanding beliefs knocked out from under you. But we cannot see the incredible reality He has in store for us if we’re not looking for it. We WILL get to that, but before we do we have to come to terms with the Truth as He shared it, not as we were led to believe it is.
If we come to understand that the whole “left behind” idea has been misrepresented, we have to consider that everything built on top of the idea has lost its foundation.
I’ll keep this short and leave you to chew on this for a bit, but I pray you will hang in there with me, because what replaces this misconception is beyond magnificent.
I am not claiming I’ve established or proven anything so far. You’ve had a chance to see how I treat the Word and begin to judge yourself if my treatment is appropriate. We’ve got a couple more “sacred cows” that need tippin’ over. But it won’t be long before we can begin rebuilding on a cleansed foundation and begin getting a picture of a truly mind boggling future He is inviting us to participate in with Him. Hang with me a bit longer and I think we will be able to establish a better understanding of His intentions for us. Soon we’ll be done with the teardown and be able to begin building.
Chin up soldier. We got more marching to do
Jostler
PS: If you can find time to read the entire Chapter of Matthew 24 it will help. We’ll be referring back to it many times and a basic familiarity with the whole will be a huge help with overall comprehension.
Father I pray for each of these, that You would be their Teacher through your Spirit. I ask You to help them discern between Your Word and the words of men, including mine. If any of my words here are not Yours, please correct me and let those words fall to the ground powerless. Let God be true and every man, including me be found liars in any place Your Word is contradicted or mistaught.
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Whistler Blowers, Insiders
The meek inherit the earth? But ….
Enoch and Noach are the same or related name.
Wasn’t Enoch taken?
Unlike the drowned who weren’t taken anywhere.
=======
The Bible says that Enoch lived 365 years before he was taken by God. The text reads that Enoch “walked with God: and he was no more; for God took him” (Gen 1–24)
…Here’s what YHVH has to say about the rapture: Ez 13:20- “Wherefore thus saith the Lord God, I am against the pillows (soft comfortable words), wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and i will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls ye hunt to make them fly.
Where is the word rapture used in any translation of the Bible? Not rapere (snatched) in the vulgate. Do you even understand Latin?
You’ll probably censor this. Most of you nuts generally do.
Read Matthew 24, THE WHOLE THING, in context. Now read Mark 13. Then read Luke 21. If you read 1 Corinthians 14 you’ll see Paul just repeats the afore mentioned three chapters.
Why do you believe something that contradicts what Christ is quoted as saying?
You are teaching the doctrine of Cyrus Scofield.
Go read my articles and then try again. Scofield would probably call me a heretic, friend
The only thing specific you challenged me on is the word “rapture” itself. Bring some Word, define how I’ve compromised it and we’ll talk.
As to the word rapture itself, I find the argument “the word rapture is not in the Bible” to be specious and demeaning. It is not an argument used by people who are more focused on understanding Truth than they are on winning an argument.
The argument is TECHNICALLY true, but the CONCEPT it refers to for most people who use it is definitely in the Bible. It’s found in I Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[fn]
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
I desire to communicate with people. To walk with precious men and women who love the Lord Jesus as I do. I have no desire to conquer them by argument. That concept is the blessed hope our King died to secure for us. It is the promise that death cannot hold us and a new body that will never suffer the effects of sin and will never taste death again. Glory!
jostler
in 1Thess. 4: 13 – 18 where does it say this is a rapture and where does it state they go to the third heaven??
Yes it does state “we shall always BE with the LORD” — Where does it state Christ will return to heaven and remain in heaven and not here on Earth ruling HIS Kingdom that HIS Father will give HIM?
Are you aware that IN THAT DAY His feet will stand on the mound of Olives?
David will be in the first resurrection ruling over all 12 tribes that have return to receive the Promised Land for the 3rd and last time and the 12 Apostles will each rule one of the 12 tribes. The vast numbers of the remnant of all 12 tribes of Israel shall return to the Promised Land by the 2nd Exodus. Their numbers will in the 10′s of millions.
I have not read your papers as I have proven to my self the so called rapture is just another con job of Satan. That proof is found through out the entire WORD of GOD.
And Jostler we are required to do more then just love the Lord — “Why call you ME LORD LORD and do not the things I say????”
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: —- but if thou wilt enter into life, — keep the commandments.
Your Savior is telling you to Keep the Commandments and then HE list them!
The overwhelming percentage (99.9%) of so called christians DO NOT KEEP the Commandments as they HATE THEM.
You haven’t read the article, which is my chosen topic of discussion. You have also put a LOT of words in my mouth I never spoke.
I am responsible for what I say, not the words you put in my mouth and I’m not going to waste time swatting at ghosts.
Good day.
I’m sorry Jostler I was asking Truthseeker. I know the Jewish community doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ, they believe he is just a man from what I understand. So I was curious because of some of his remarks.
“Your Savior is telling you to Keep the Commandments and then HE list them!
The overwhelming percentage (99.9%) of so called christians DO NOT KEEP the Commandments as they HATE THEM.
“
Oh!
My bad 
Carry on please 
I’m curious, what religion are you? Are you a Christian or other?
I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I believe that He and He alone is the Way to reconciliation with the Father.
I believe that His blood was shed for me on a brutal cross to pay for my sins.
My sole goal in life is to know Him, and obey Him, and no other.
I believe that His Word stands alone as God’s revelation of Himself to mankind and I perceive His Word to be the final authority for all knowledge, faith and practice.
Other than that, labels piss me off
Great comment, Jostler. When I first started to believe I put my face down to the ground, shut my eyes, and asked Father and Son to show me the path to wisdom, knowledge and understanding. I asked them to help me to better understand the Scriptures and guide me on my path.
Since then my life has improved dramatically.
I went from being an atheist to an agnostic, then finally a believer all within about 2 years. I have received great help to understand things from good friends that know the scriptures better than I do. I believe it was all lined up to go down like that.
I arrived at the conclusions I have by actually studying the Scriptures and where they came from. Not blind faith. I need to “see” to believe. In that sense I guess you could call me a “Doubting Thomas.” Heh.
Good times behind, but better times ahead.
Keep sharing. Just remember for every 1 that doesn’t appreciate it there is usually 1 who does.
Hes not anything. Same as the rest of them.
…seeker…tell me about the millennium…what do you think about that?
maxwell
Jesus Christ is returning as KING of Kings and He will rule for 1000 years here on earth.
Ruling with Him will be David over all 12 tribes and under David will be the 12 Apostles each ruling one of the 12 tribes.
and the reward of the Saints, those that obey and DO the WILL of our FATHER, are positions of authority as kings and Lord also ruling under Christ.
Some will rule 2 cities some 5.
…seeker…absolutely.
Troothytits
There is no Israel outside of Judah demon.
Christianity is Israel demon.
=============
If you would enter into life keep the commandments.
If you would be perfect come follow me.
Keep “tippin those cows” Jostler. I think you are doing great! Can’t wait for your next article.. I am enjoying some of the comments as much as the articles. Blessings to you Brother!!
…The first one taken, is taken by the antichrist.
prove it
“sacred cows” that need tippin’ over, that is hillarious. I am following to see where you are going with this. This is fascinating. I had a random thought to share that came up when you mentioned the left behind school of thought. I am sure you are aware that people try to say that the idea of rapture only came up when Margaret McDonald had her rapture vision. That is not accurate. In fact the early saints spoke about and preached rapture. A good example would be St Irananeus who was a student of Polycarp who was taught by none other than our beloved St John the Apostle. Iranaeus and Polycarp both taught rapture. Another good one is St Ephraim. A cut from his sermon “On The Last Times” is “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins”. Just a little thought nugget.
TransTex, I appreciate the grace you are extending to me. If I cannot establish my assertions from the Word itself, NOBODY has any responsibility to believe what I have to say.
I appreciate your willingness to hang in there and listen while I attempt to make the case. Time will tell how well I manage the task
And, to be honest, if I fail, I hope SOMEONE will be able to show me where I missed the boat. I don’t have a lock on the sum of all Truth. I can already see by many of the comments there are people here who know much more than I do about a LOT of things. I expect to be learning as much as anyone as we proceed.
Be blessed
I’ve looked into the recent history that surrounds Margaret McDonald, Darby and Scofield only briefly. I have seen arguments asserting that many of the early church fathers believed in a pre-trib rapture but I haven’t made time to research that assertion myself.
I probably should make time to do that. So far it’s been all I can manage just to catch up with all the incredible research surrounding the “days of Noah”. The subject of the feasts and all the types and shadows found in those observances is also a topic I’m trying to get my head around. Also time consuming.
So much to learn….so little time! lol…if you have any links to any of those writings by the early church that deal with the rapture I’d like to go take a look.
…The first comment little Margaret made when she came out of her “episode’, was that the vision seemed evil…
jostler
Why do you place these folks in the box as “early church father” and show me a women that God placed in charge of HIS truth.
And I do hope you do research GOD’s Feasts, they are the shadows of the major events in Gods plan of Salvation.
Why read what men have written???? Read the WORD of GOD and let HIM open your mind.
Learn from God and not man.
jostler…thank you for bringing this to our attention @BIN, looking forward to
ALL your Stories, and re-laying the foundations, for us to REBUILD UPON ….thank you for straightening out our misconceptions in this matter. 
you wrote the following.
“In my world of strict hermaneutics FIRST has to mean exactly what it says.
And there can only be one “first”. 
me…Keep that in MIND…
” FIRST “:idea:
“this misconception is beyond magnificent.” “left behind” has lost its foundation…..
the parable of the 10 virgins
50% were LEFT BEHIND 
YOU…”If you’re like I was when I first studied this in context you’re probably feeling like someone just kicked you in the gut.’
bahwahaaa !! Sorry couldn’t help myself Bawhahaha
YOU..”I believe every word of that verse. We are
NOT appointed to wrath
YOU…”Once we get a foundation laid, I think it will be clear that
we MUST be here during the time of His wrath 
, ???
“and that
we will rise above all of it.”…..Yes @ the rapture/rescue “in the clouds in the Air” lifted UP 
Just LIKE NOAH 
Y’shua (Christ) would NOT even open Seal 1 of the 7 Seals on His BRIDE
…to say, He “GOD” opens seal (1) ONTO HIS BRIDE and ALLOWs the Antichrist to overpower the BRIDE (as he is the rider on the White horse,) therefore letting LOOSE …”Gods WRATH on Earth”… on the breaking of Seal (1) which He CLEARLY say’s… we are NOT under His wrath….we’re GONE.
YOU…We’ve got a couple more “sacred cows” that need tippin’ over. But it won’t be long before we can begin rebuilding on a cleansed foundation…..
,,,,Oh’ A great big thank you, thank you, on behalf of ‘Mrs Green also” nothing like slaying the “sacred cows” and if wisdom came by years studied explain Truthseeker, M Savage etc etc who have between them hundreds of yrs and are yet NOT SAVED.
YOU..”we will be able to establish a better understanding of His intentions for us. Soon we’ll be done with the teardown and be able to begin building.”
Jostler ..Teardown as much as you like, “take away” what you like, “as it will be taken away from you”
The Dead in Christ ARISE
FIRST that Word “FIRST” 
….the misconceptions are ALL YOURS
THEN (different verse)
about (40)
two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left…this has NOTHING TO DO with the Rapture (RESURRECTION) this is the Harvesting of the “Weed and the Tares @ the End of the Age” the Ones taken (GATHERED)
FIRST SHOWN HERE 
are TAKEN TO THE VULTURES there is NO RESURRECTION MENTIONED the one LEFT BEHIND are (GATHERED ALSO) NO RESURRECTION to go INTO THE BARN ON EARTH …His Kingdom. 
The BRIDE has GONE to the Mansion in HEAVEN long before this. as He PROMISED
jostler one more thing would you clarify for me are you a Triune believer of
“GOD the HOLY SPIRIT” ?
or a believer in the Holy Spirit is the breath of God inotherwords.. Father and Jesus as Godhead only ?
Tks for reply …onward Christian soldiers.. chin high
Inotherwords THEN (40) is the gathering of the unclean @the Second Coming when
He sends His ANGELS to GATHER and separate (1) into the Wine press and (1) to the Barn, the Kingdom on Earth.
Bro I am trying to keep this very close to the Word itself, because it contains all the Truth worth believing.
You took exception to many aspects of what I said but completely bypassed showing me how I had mishandled the Word itself.
If the whole “left behind” idea still retains relevance as you assert, then deal with my interpretation of the passage it’s found in.
Explain to me how Jesus used the words and concepts around “taken” and “left” in His explanation.
That passage looks to me like it CLEARLY portrays that those who are “left behind” are the righteous and those who were “taken” were taken in a judgement that cost them their natural lives!
I don’t want to be “taken” in the judgement described in that passage! If that is the case, then how can we interpret that passage as referring to a pre-trib rapture where the “saints” are “taken” and the wicked “left behind”?
I understand your passionate about your position. But passion isn’t evidence. What do we do with my treatment of Matt 24?
Is my interpretation of it wrong? If so, how is it wrong? What is the correct interpretation?
If my interpretation is correct, then we have to conclude that one of the most famous, well known underpinnings for the pre-tribulation rapture is a huge misunderstanding and everything built on top of the idea has to be re-evaluated.
Long, passionate screeds don’t change that no matter how passionately we argue them.
WARNING, THIS ANTICHRIST IS ADVOCATING FALSE DOCTRINE THAT WILL COST YOU THE PROMISE OF SALVATION.
The “rapture” idea is outright malarkey that has no scriptural bases whatsoever. It is a sick fabrication derived from the wild imaginations of those absent the Spirit of the one true God, Yahweh Elohim. It amends without Godly authority God’s plan for mankind with the same fascination Lucifer had about ascending to Heaven.
Jesus told us in John 3:11 “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
More significantly God anticipating the cunning and misleading alterations that would pollute His Truth constructed by the master of deception and his minions, provided a mechanism to test their false and blasphemous assertions. One such passage begins in the Bible’s book of Revelation. Gods intention for man is disclosed in a manor that cannot be molested by deceit. Begin reading in Rev 21:2 ” 2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
For those unaware the “second death” is extremely important as it totally debunks the common Heaven/Hell paradigm. The second death refers to what happens to those resurrected to a physical body during the second round of resurrections. Rev 20:5 “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”
Note: the 144,000 resurrected in the first resurrection are raise to spirit bodies and entered the spiritual family of Elohim. This is why they are exempt from the second death. The second death results after a period where all who ever lived will be given the opportunity to see and evaluate for themselves God’s Kingdom here on earth in force. They will be given the choice of accepting God’s ways or returning to the state of death. They will return to the ground with no future capability of communicating with God or resurrection to life. They will pay the penalty for sin, which is death, not eternal torture. The eternal punishment means the punishment is final, it lasts forever. Fire and brimstone is symbolic of that. When trash is burned it is gone, kaput. God’s Word is not indicating that the “God of Love” has transformed into a sadistic ogre and would torture His children.
The other things these same Antichrist advocate conflict with God’s truth. Christmas or the celebration of Christ’s birthday on Nimrods birthday and winter solace in Baal or sun worship. Easter, a pagan tradition that maliciously replaces God’s annual appointed time of Passover. The the required Holy celebration has been hijacked substituted with the honoring of the pagan goddess Ishtar rather than our “Eternal Passover Sacrifice Jesus Christ.” They graciously accept nine of Gods commandments as legitimate however they purposely ignore the forth commandments seventh day requirement. They falsely contend that Jesus fulfilled this commandment, but Christ says different in Matthew 5:16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
I CAUTION THOSE SEEKING TRUTH AX WELL AS THOSE PRACTICING FALSE DEPICTIONS OF GOD YAHWEH, HIS SON JESUS CHRIST OR HIS PLAN FOR MANKIND IS GUILTY OF IDOLATRY. IF THIS BEHAVIOR IS NOT CHANGED AND REPENTED OF YOU WILL BECAUSE OF SIN BE UNABLE TO ACCEPT THE MIRACULOUS GIFT OUR HEAVENLY FATHER HAS PROVIDE IN OUR BENEFIT. FOR MORE OR ADDITIONAL ACCURATE INFORMATION VISIT GODS ONE AND ONLY CHURCH, THE CHURCH OF GOD PKG.
Offered out of love,
A Student of the Word
Anonymouse if there’s NO RAPTURE
Intact, Heads on, completely UNHARMED, (as if a rescue had occurred) TAKEN by the Bridegroom Himself ? to the Wedding Feast
I thought you were leaving after that Looong goodbye message you dumped on us…?
Jostler that brings up another point are you saying that there is NO RAPTURE ALSO ? if so where do we put it ? or am i getting ahead of your Story ?
Top Definition. Jostler. The principal of advancing ones self by destroying others in regards to careers and egos
Humm interesting….Nah..!! just maybe a coincidence ?
off for Zzzzz
Adieu
You..Revelation Chapter 20 identifies clearly when the first resurrection takes place
Ok it’s late here you clearly pointed out you believe the rapture is HERE Whoops !!
Humm I believe all this is saying that this is the conclusion of the first resurrection, as there are resurrections, @ Christ @ first fruits @ five Virgins (Bride) @ (2) Witnesses to heaven and @ rev 20 those whom did NOT take the Mark @ the conclusion of the first resurrection….
Adieu
crazy it says they went OUT not UP!
They left their temporary tabernacles to meet the Bridegroom at His return. They meet in the clouds and then land on the Mount of Olives.
There are no scriptures that state the Saints of God are to live in the 3rd heaven NONE!
the Meek shall inherit the EARTH!!!!! crazy does that mean you are not meek??
But Hey I know you make up your own doctrine and just simply ignore the what GOD has to say about HIS PLAN OF SALVATION.
seeker:
Yes’ they went OUT TO “MEET” HIM Matt 25 (NOT taken by Angels nor REAPED) and where was that to seeker ? TO “MEET” THE LORD IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR, read it for yourself 1 THESSALONIANS 4:17 KJV
to go to the Fathers House…John 14:2
You…”They meet in the clouds and then land on the Mount of Olives”
Yeah! that comes from your OWN interpretations the ekklesia of Orphans
Clearly you throw away going to the “Fathers House” and second witness of “going to the throne of God and will not go out anymore”rev 3:10 as Promised as you also throw away the “Glorious New Covenant”
Your NOT even a Christian to use the New Testament scriptures, your an OLD Testament Lawyer …a SDA or a Jew…??
Repent Lawyer and receive the Spirit of the New Covenant “God the Holy Spirit”…’today is the day of Salvation” your days are numbered waste NO MORE time in your wilderness, become a Son, an adopted Son of the New Covenant.
btw seeker that is
UP
…crazy whatever you do, do NOT let truthseeker complicate your understanding….He’s working from an interpretation that is as convoluted as any I’ve ever come across..stay in the simplicity of the words of Christ, and you cant go wrong…take NO MAN”S interpretations to heart…no matter who they are or how KNOWLEDGEABLE, and scripturally informed, they make themselves out to be.
…Let them work out their own salvation their OWN way…keep it simple. lots of deception out there. Let the spirit guide you and don’t listen.
..seeker loves to argue and his cut and paste techniques are as good as it gets…beware. Just nod approval,and move on as quickly as possible….
Anonymous
God uses number throughout HIS Word and the number three is completeness, finality.
There are 3 resurrections:
To life – eternal life i.e the first Resurrection
To judgement – the 2nd Resurrection those that come to life AFTER the 1000 years. See Ezekiel 37
the 2nd is back to physical life and a period of time over which a person that was never called gets their one and only chance for salvation i.e eternal life,
what happens to the kids that were aborted or died at birth or at age 1,2,3, etc or the savages that have lived for the last 6000 years?? Or those were in pagan religions?
The 3rd resurrection is to condemnation.
raised back to physical life and then sentenced to death by Christ and the angels cast them into the LAKE OF FIRE!
One more thing before I go
You “It’s not pleasant to have longstanding beliefs knocked out from under you.”
Okie dokie mrs green awaits more of your “sacred cow” kicking and I more about how your going tear down more of GOD’s Precepts of rescue He gave us, shown throughout scripture….
…Crazy…We all, every last one of us loses our flesh bodies. Try to see this through a SPIRITUAL perspective…The body of Christ is our protection…its a matter of faith. You live within this promise, as a Christian.
maxxy the true ecclesia of God is a Spiritual body not of this world, so how can I not be able to see the Spiritual ? maxxy
The True ekklesia was born @ pentecost from above and goes UP at the rapture/rescue You have to be born from above to go above ..what is flesh is flesh etc
That WHY He says He will bring back WITH HIM the Souls of those whom departed
1 Thessalonians 4:14
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. 15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.…
King James Bible
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
from Where ?
Crazy man…I know you are a REAL Christian, I meant no insult. I love you.
..At the seventh trump, we are all changed into spiritual bodies…some with eternal souls, and some with “mortal souls” (liable to die, those that did not make it)…to await the white throne judgement.
…to use modern language, the spiritual realm is a different ‘dimension’. Despite what truthseeker says about it, we’ll never have another ‘flesh’ body…ever. The spiritual body is our REAL body. The body you were created with, in the first age. looks just like the one you occupy now, without the scars and and other signs of aging…who wants a flesh body, that gets sick and injured…
…Glorious Spiritual life…for eternity….All the rest of the details, we’ll see when we get there…
maxxy no insult taken buddy
“The body you were created with, in the first age. looks just like the one you occupy now,”
Arrrh you mean I’m going to look like this for eternity thats food for thought !!!
better get fit then hahaha
Adieu Zzzzzz
Bro, you keep attacking everything BUT the interpretation of the Scriptures themselves. I see you don’t like the way I worded things…I get that.
I’ll try to word things less offensively in the future. But what real power does my use of words have anyway? Why so much energy spent on a flawed man’s words?
What about His Word ?
Jostler…you’re a big boy…. take it for what its worth. I gave you definitive “words of Christ” for the rapture thing…you want to argue take it up with truthseeker…he loves passing out his own interpretations. I have nothing you can’t find…if you are in Spirit.
That was directed at Crazy not you
It gets hard to tell when comments start getting deeply nested. This post is referring back to the one where Crazy objects to my “cow tipping” analogy. Hey, I’ll try to find better analogies 
…Yeah Josty…it gets kinda confusing f’ sho’…
There shall be a new earth and a new heaven, for the former things have passed away, there shall be no more sorrow, heartaches or tears.
Simply put, we come to the point in life we accept Gods will for us. Someone dies, who do you feel sorrow for, no one but yourself. Emotions are man made not God given. Celebrate Gods will in acceptance, enjoy the heaven on earth.
I think this pretty much explains the rapture.
Matthew 13, 36-44
Jesus Explains a Hard Story
36Then Jesus left the people and went into the house. His followers came to him and said, “Explain to us the meaning of the story about the weeds in the field.”
37He answered, “The man who planted the good seed in the field is the Son of Man.
38The field is the world. The good seed are the people in God’s kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the Evil One.
39And the enemy who planted the bad seed is the devil. The harvest is the end of time. And the workers who gather are God’s angels.
40“The weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire. It will be the same at the end of time.
41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will find the people who cause sin and all those who do evil. The angels will take those people out of his kingdom.
42They will throw them into the place of fire. There the people will be crying and grinding their teeth with pain.
43Then the godly people will shine like the sun. They will be in the kingdom of their Father. You people who hear me, listen!
So I think that is what’s meant when it says.
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
Qrob
reply to your posts…
Where did the taken ones go in theses verses ?
Cross References ONE TAKEN FIRST…the Wicked
Matthew 24:40
Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
Luke 17:37
“Where, Lord?” they asked. Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
So the First here is NOT the Bride the Church….as these
are slain “as it is written” These are NOT rapture verses but End of the AGE gatherings and reaping of the WEEDS TARES and the Wheat those converted by the 144.000 and (2) witnesses go into the Barn (to repopulate Earth) in the Millennial Kingdom and are gathered by ANGELS reapers.
THE BRIDE does not will NOT go into a BARN …She was promised to go to the Fathers House a Mansion the NEW Jerusalem in Heaven as Promised….the Lord said He will come and receive US UNTO Himself at the Trumpet of God and we will be FIRST not LAST.
Qrob …better in KJV Matthew 13:30
“Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together
FIRST 
the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”
Compare that with
1 Thessalonians….And the dead in Christ will rise
first. 
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
CLEARLY this is NOT done at the same time the
Righteous are FIRST and go OUT to meet Him by Himself Matt 25 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven 
The Harvesting by reapers at the END of the Age by ANGELS the reapers
I’m sorry I probably should have included the story as well.
A Story About Wheat and Weeds
24Then Jesus used another story to teach them. Jesus said, “God’s kingdom is like a man who planted good seed in his field.
25That night, while everyone was asleep, the man’s enemy came and planted weeds among the wheat and then left.
26Later, the wheat grew, and heads of grain grew on the plants. But at the same time the weeds also grew.
27Then the man’s servants came to him and said, ‘You planted good seed in your field. Where did the weeds come from?’
28“The man answered, ‘An enemy planted weeds.’
“The servants asked, ‘Do you want us to go and pull up the weeds?’
29“He answered, ‘No, because when you pull up the weeds, you might also pull up the wheat.
30Let the weeds and the wheat grow together until the harvest time. At the harvest time I will tell the workers this: First, gather the weeds and tie them together to be burned. Then gather the wheat and bring it to my barn.’”
I agree 100%. This parable is so intimately connected to the “gathering to Him” mentioned in 1 Thessalonians I think it’s impossible to ignore and still claim we’re dealing with the topic of His return.
Part 3 is up for anyone interested:
/prophecy/2016/05/rapture-when-part-3-the-abomination-2481013.html
YOU…”Bro, you keep attacking everything”
Jostler I know when I’m being led down the garden path it’s getting a bit too hypnotic for me..
Look at my yes my eyes, not around my eyes, into my eye… 1 2 3 …your under …Yes Jostler yes I see it
on the count of 3,,, 1 2 3 … your back in the room.
I’ve seen many stories about how we are being deceived in holding onto our “Blessed Hope” of PTR
I’m sorry I’m not buying into your stories, I’m not going down YOUR rabbit hole, the foundations on Gods Precept of rescue were laid long ago nothing to do with these authors you mentioned, I don’t know who they even are? we don’t need to rebuild nor sweep clean.
Now to your reply about this below YOU SAID
You said…..”but completely bypassed showing me how I had mishandled the Word itself.”
Let’s see …In your FIRST delivery of YOUR hack job story on PTR called
“Rapture ? when ?”
You wrote…In my world of strict hermaneutics FIRST has to mean exactly what it says.
And there can only be one “first”. 
I SAID…Keep that in MIND…
” FIRST “:idea:
SO LETS STICK WITH “FIRST” …as we agree on THAT
then I mentioned “FIRST” AGAIN to point you to WHERE you MISHANDLED the Word by giving ….
I Said….”The “”Dead in Christ ARISE
FIRST”" that Word “FIRST” 
….the misconceptions are ALL YOURS
AS you believed the wicked are removed FIRST (two men FIRST ONE TAKEN is the WICKED etc) and the righteous remain on Earth….YES ?
SO that is back to front …when we stick with your “In my world of strict hermaneutics FIRST “there can only be one “first”.
YOU…..”What about His Word ?”
OK….
“as it is written”
1st witness…The “”Dead in Christ ARISE
FIRST”" ….1 Thessalonians 4:16
You have them “SECOND” in YOUR story, You have the wicked judged FIRST and worst still there is NO resurrection at that time, as they are ALIVE and taken to the Vultures….for Death.
Cross References where was the ONE TAKEN FIRST…the Wicked
Matthew 24:40
Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
Luke 17:37
“Where, Lord?” they asked. Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”
So clearly these verses are NOT about the Resurrection/rapture …as the dead in Christ rise FIRST therefore the RIGHTEOUS rise FIRST ….
2nd witness…Judgement begins “FIRST” in the House of God…. 1 Peter 4:17
That’s WHY the CHURCHES are mentioned at the
BEGINNING 
of REV and NOT near the END as you interpret rev 20
YOU Wrote…”If the whole “left behind” idea still retains relevance as you assert, then deal with my interpretation of the passage it’s found in.”
Matey I DID ! PLUS you can’t say to some one Look ONLY at this for the PTR doctrine we take it ALL IN …
Furthermore I backed it up with the Parable of the 10 virgins (3rd Witness) Matt 25
the 50% (5) WISE virgins
went “FIRST” 
(not the wicked) and logically those whom were “Left behind” were NOT the righteous as you propose…in your STORIES whom remain on Earth 
Greetings seekers of the Truth! 1 Thessalonians should not be read alone. If a good friend had written you a letter about an emergency, wouldn’t you read the next one????
Read the conclusion of the discussion on the Resurrection in 2 Thessalonians especially chapter 2. The resurrection does not occur until when? This is key. It does not fit into the pre-trib theory. That is why it is never discussed and left behind. It really is quite simple.
“Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?”
So what spurred the pre-trib theology? Supposedly a woman started it. I couldn’t figure out how my loving Father could get so mad at the world. What could they possibly do? Then I wondered what God said about child sacrifice, and I got my answer. Nationally legalized child sacrifice is the greatest abomination and guess what? IT IS NOT FORGIVEN ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL.
It was delayed with a great revival during the time of Josiah, remember the 8 yr old who became king of Judah? Well, if not, get a thesaurus and study the Bible because the consequence of “shedding innocent blood” is…wait for it…
INVASION AND CONQUEST. Ever wonder about the book of Lamentations? Written afterwards. Read it and do all you can to warn your neighbor of the coming wrath of God and start the sparks of the next great world revival. Or maybe there won’t be. There wasn’t one before the Great Flood.
…Oh , there WILL be a great ‘revival’….It will be orchestrated by the ‘false’ christ. Believers will be delivered up to his ‘church’…our time of testimony…The Holy spirit will speak through YHVH’s elect.
In the future we may be able to “hear” what the saints, yogies etc great people said in the past. Human beings are developing spiritually and becoming like ETs. They can see past and even somehow to the future. We will be also one day, so no need to debate so much what Jesus said, we will hear and see with our own eyes. More Jesus revelations; /spirit/2016/05/jesus-and-israel-never-die-2502435.html
Beef Supreme and Mayhem,
I hope you two keep commenting. I think I have read some articles you have written Mayhem. If you two have anything else written on this subject I would appreciate the links and I am sure I would enjoy reading them. To make myself plain I believe in the rapture but I suppose I might be categorized as a PRE-WRATH person. I think we will be here through the tribulation but I think our Heavenly Father can protect those he wishes too. I don’t think his people are appointed to wrath as the scripture states. Blessings to you two and I hope that Jostler keeps at it and doesn’t get frustrated. Thanks for all the amazing comments, it makes reading these articles that much more interesting
Some of us have been here the best part of a decade, mrs.green, and it’s probably safe to say we’re not going anywhere fast. Thank you for your kindness but i’ve never published so you must be thinking of someone else.
I agree, more power to Jostler, that he keeps doing good works. And he should know, while i’m loathe to boast, that folk are indeed turning to the Truth having come to realize that the propagandist claims, that the Bible is faulty, amount to nought in robust debate.
I arrived here, in the bins, as an Agnostic and have Beef Supreme to thank for giving me the confidence to study my Bible without the influence of churches or men. The rest is history.
Mayhem,
The same thing sort of happened to me. After 31 years in a Baptist church I actually started READING my bible and that inspired questions…LOL can you believe that?? So, I referred to my pastor and his advice was, and I QUOTE “You don’t need to read your bible just listen to what I tell you”!!!! Yep I knew I was in trouble then…:) I removed myself from the church arena and discovered anyone with a seminary college degree will teach you their theology based on their school of study. So … I found a Hebrew pastor that speaks and reads Hebrew ( new and old pictograph) and greek and then proceeded from there. I think its important to look at the original languages that the scrolls and old texts were published in. Translation from one language to another is extremely hard especially when you don’t speak those languages. You have been blessed to have a friend like Beef.
Sorry I got you confused with another person. I think I have read some post by a Mayhem on BIN.. I just assumed it was you. You know what they say about the word assume, So I apologize for the confusion. I am very proud that BEEF SUPREME convinced you to read and study without Man’s influence. He gave you some proper and serious advice when he told you that!
Mrs. Green wrote:
“To make myself plain I believe in the rapture but I suppose I might be categorized as a PRE-WRATH person.”
That’s pretty plain. And leaving aside for the moment the unbiblical nature of the word ‘rapture’, the model you subscribe to most naturally finds support from all relevant passages of Scripture. The Day of the LORD is the outpouring of His wrath. For all we know, that will be an actual single day. I think it probably will be. And I believe that His people will be taken out of the way before that happens. But many of His people will be here for the Great Tribulation, a point about which Scripture is not at all ambiguous.
Like Mayhem said, many of us have been paddling around in these waters for years now. We’ve witnessed and participated in dozens of iterations of this rapture debate. After a while, nothing else new emerges and so I find it best to remain on the sidelines for the most part.
“I hope that Jostler keeps at it and doesn’t get frustrated.”
If we don’t pace ourselves in this forum, we’ll burn out and flee in utter disgust. But a few weeks ago I was discussing these online conversations/debates with a Christian pastor who asked me if anyone has ever ‘come to the Lord’ as a result of them. My answer was an unqualified ‘yes.’ Labor around here can be difficult and time-consuming, but it can also be rewarding and beneficial to His people. That’s why we do what we do. That, and the chance to crack the odd mocker right in the chops when he least expects it.
For all its pros and cons, this website is unique and affords us a chance to do real and meaningful work.
Beef,
Have you got a link I can read that explains the difference between tribulation and wrath? I’m not well schooled on that topic and so far I’ve sort of made a distinction between what Revelation describes as the plans the beast has vs. the events in Revelation that obviously proceed directly from the Throne room.
Any refinement you’ve got would be helpful to me. My treatment of it isn’t very thorough yet.
Jostler wrote:
“Have you got a link I can read that explains the difference between tribulation and wrath?”
I’ve got something even better than that. A reminder. Why would you be even the least bit interested in seeking to the arguments and conclusions of flawed authors? You should forget reading what the exegetes and the commentators have to say.
Hit the Greek, Jostler. Break apart the words. And I don’t mean simply plugging ‘tribulation’ and ‘wrath’ into Strong’s Concordance. Strong’s is a starting point, but it is a tool which makes no differentiation whatsoever in word form. Here is an example of I mean:
Romans 9:22
What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction…
Now the Greek word for wrath in this case is ὀργὴν (orgēn), which is the accusative feminine singular version of 3709. orgé. Strong’s will show orgé for the word used by Paul in Romans 9:22. But orgé isn’t the word Paul used there. The word he used is orgēn. You will need access to tools which make this sometimes crucial distinction. One such online tool would be the website:
http://biblehub.com/
…which gives you access to many of the Greek Manuscripts as well as a list of parallel translations into English (King James Version, English Standard Version, New American Standard Version, etc. etc.), not to mention a breakdown of tense and word form construction. The interlinear feature at this site also provides access to Strong’s Concordance numbers and definitions as well as word-for-word translations and breakdowns.
If you have a King James Version (either in print or online) you can download (for free, as all the best Bible study software is) Pure Bible Search:
http://www.purebiblesearch.com/
This software will allow you to type in any word or phrase, as it appears in the King James Version, and the program will give you a list by verse of every occurrence of that word or phrase in the Bible. You can tailor your search to specific portions of the Bible to make things even easier.
So you plug in wrath and you plug in tribulation and you closely examine each and every occurrence of those words in the list of verses provided for you. You then study those verses looking for whatever the Spirit might have to teach you. You conduct word studies and cross-compare verses – for example, the wording of Matthew chapter 24 is critically important to compare with the narrative of Revelation when doing a study on wrath and tribulation. And you don’t just concern yourself with the Greek New Testament. You hit the Hebrew too. Look up wrath and tribulation in the Old Testament as well. The things you learn will probably leave your jaw in your lap. It won’t even take you all that long to do.
Devote a few hours or half a day to a search like this, exploring each and every lead you discover along the way, and you will never find yourself asking for links to men’s opinions ever again. Remember, our Father has given us access to these tools, and dozens more like them, for FREE. There are no barriers between us and the ancient languages any more and there are no barriers between us and a very refined and very profound understanding of His Word. Would you merely sit and be fed? Remember what Messiah did with the 5000 after He fed them with the bread and the fishes. He sent them away. Only His disciples did He take with Him.
Learn to feast on the Word, Jostler.
thanks for the tools and the suggestions on how to use them.
jostler
Beef just gave you the best advice — go to GOD and HIS WORD not man! all men are liars.
Let the Word of God explain the WORD of GOD– here a little there a little, precept upon precept.
Remember the words of Christ ASK and you shall receive, SEEK and you shall find, KNOCK and it shall be open to you.
GOD’s TRUTH is given to us by GOD and by HIM only,