Pope Right: Hell Not Forever, Incompatible with a Loving God; Where Did We Get that Idea?
Pope Francis has sparked another debate with controversial remarks at the Third Vatican Council. He says, the concept of hell where people burn eternally cannot be Christian–it goes against the concept of a loving and compassionate God.
That idea is being challenged by other Bible scholars, not just the pope.
When God told Adam that if he ate of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” that he would “surely die” (Genesis 2:17) He did not mean live forever in torment. This idea is an invention of the devil to paint God as a devil.
God says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. It’s a biblical concept that God does not destroy and that we destroy ourselves by the choices we make. How important it is to choose wisely.
The word “hell” is found 54 times in the King James Bible. It translated from the Hebrew word “she’ol” meaning the grave 31 times, and from the Greek word “hades,” also meaning the grave 10 times. The Greek word gehenna is the source for 12 uses of hell and the word means a place of burning (only 12 out of 54 places in the Bible).
The Bible teaches that wicked will be burned up and leave them “neither root nor branch,” Malachi 4:1. God says, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked,” Ezekiel 33:11.
That was before churchmen got into the act by promising to pray people out of hell or purgatory (no such word in the Bible) for money. Poor translation of Revelation makes people think the fire is forever when it is the consequences (death) that lasts for ever.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus has been used by many preachers to teach eternal torment. This link has a good explanation: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/col/col21.html In summary it says–
The idea of a conscious existence between death and the resurrection was held by many in Christ’s day. He knew this and framed His parable to teach truth related to their preconceived opinions–that no man is valued for his possessions–all that we have belongs to us only as lent by the Lord. A misuse of these gifts places us below the poorest and most afflicted man who loves and serves God.
Christ desires us to understand that it is impossible for men to secure the salvation of the soul after death.
“The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything,” Ecclesiastes 9:5. The belief in consciousness after death sets us up for deception by evil spirits that can personate departed love ones–like the evil spirit personated Samuel, brought up by the witch of Endor at Saul’s request. http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc31.html
Dr. Richard Ruhling is a physician whose special interest in retirement is Bible prophecy, especially the wedding parables, and he offers more information at his website,http://TheBridegroomComes.com
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Genesis 3:4 The doctrine of souls burning forever is rooted in the idea that “the soul can’t die.” That idea originated with the serpent who told Eve and Satan’s lieEve that if she sinned, she would “not surely die.” But God said she would die (Genesis 2:16-17). God of course told the truth.
1 Corinthians 15:50-55 Only true Christians receive “immortality” at the Second Coming.
1 Timothy 6:16 God “alone has immortality.”
Revelation 20:11-15 The lost finally suffer the “second death” at the end of the 1000 years.
The Character and Justice of God Will Be Vindicated
1 John 4:8 “God is love.” He is not a tyrant who will burn people forever.
Revelation 20:13 Each person will be judged fairly, “according to his works.”
Revelation 20:14-15 After God’s just judgment, the lost will suffer the “second death.”
Revelation 15:3 Then the universe will say of God, “Just and true are Your ways, 0 King of the saints!”
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes,
And there shall be no more death, neither sorry, nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things
[including the lake of fire] have passed away.
And He that sat upon the throne said,
“Behold, I make all things new.”
And he said to me,
“Write: for these words are true and faithful.” Revelation 21:4-5
http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/
what is in the bible stays or you will answer
heard once that GOD exist out of our exists
“The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything,” Ecclesiastes 9:5.
That’s one of the favorite verses of all who argue that death = the blackness of darkness/nothingness. To advocate for that argument is to misunderstand death. Why do I say this? Because those who advocate for that argument (including Amminadab above) have failed to incorporate ALL of the verses and passages from Scripture, dealing with the subject in question, into their understanding of the subject. Are there numerous verses in Scripture which seem to state plainly that death = thoughtless, consciousness-less oblivion? Yes there are. But what about the numerous other verses which argue forcefully for something else?
The fact is this – all who claim that death = oblivion, do not take Messiah at His word.
“The belief in consciousness after death sets us up for deception by evil spirits that can personate departed love ones…”
There is nothing in Scripture about dead loved ones communicating with their living friends or family. That is to say, the ONLY Scriptural Instructions about communicating with the dead, are prohibitions against the practice. Just ask Saul. But there is PLENTY in Scripture about consciousness after physical death.
“…like the evil spirit personated Samuel, brought up by the witch of Endor at Saul’s request…”
Sorry Doctor. You have just altered the written word to fit your interpretation of the material. Never a good idea. Scripture says NOTHING about any impersonation of Samuel. In order for your beliefs regarding this matter to remain viable, you NEED there to be a false Samuel, so you have here just invented one. You should know better. Scripture says:
“And the woman saw SAMUEL…”
“And Saul perceived that it WAS SAMUEL…”
“And SAMUEL said to Saul…”
That is the written Word speaking, Doctor. That is not our opinion. Moreover, we can know for a FACT that it was not an impersonating (lying) spirit, because everything Samuel said to Saul was bona fide correct and 100 percent accurate. Samuel did not tell Saul a single lie. No sir, that was no impersonating spirit. Let Scripture be true.
Walter,
The devil spoke through the image of Samuel and though it was true, it goaded him to despair and he probably died unrepentant and disheartened, rather than turning to God. Just because the evil spirit said nothing untrue then does not negate the clear statement, “The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything” Eccl 9:5.
Readers interested in this topic would be blessed as I have by this chapter– http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc31.html
Doc wrote:
“The devil spoke through the image of Samuel and though it was true, it goaded him to despair and he probably died unrepentant and disheartened, rather than turning to God.”
Is that brazen speculation? Absent supporting verses from the Scriptures, that is precisely what it is, and no more. I can find absolutely nothing from Genesis to the Maps supportive of your conclusion. And I have looked for it for many years.
“Just because the evil spirit said nothing untrue then does not negate the clear statement, “The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything” Eccl 9:5.”
The Devil is a liar, and the father of lies, Doctor. You know this to be true. When has the Devil said anything to anyone that was without lie? (…save for *perhaps* his words to the Almighty Himself in Job.) Each and every time the Devil speaks, the Devil lies.
No sir, that was not any deceiving spirit from the First Book of Samuel. Scripture said it was Samuel, and it was Samuel. I’m willing to look at ANY scriptural backing you have for your argument to the contrary. I am NOT willing to consider outside sources, unless they rest their entire case on the written Word.
The fact that no spirit of deception was found in the words of Samuel, is powerful evidence against what you suggest.
If we care to expand the dimensions of this matter substantially, we may consider sleep. In Scripture, death is often compared with sleep. This too is something I’ve examined closely over the years. Now is it true that when we sleep, we dream? It is true. (…though some may deny they dream, the deniers I have questioned all admitted to being uncertain of their claim.) Moreover, is it true that for the entire time we are asleep, we are dreaming? I maintain that this too is true. I am aware of ‘scientific’ evidence suggesting the contrary. In my experience, if we are asleep, we are dreaming – no exception. I know that I was ‘somewhere’ when under anesthesia for a cardiac procedure. Upon awakening, I called family members to me so that I could relate the details of my experience – even as I felt those details retreating from me. Today, I can scarcely relate anything of that experience. I believe that when we are asleep or are anesthetized, we are in a dream state for the entire time.
But when we dream, can we rightly be said to ‘know’ anything? Even during moments of lucidity, when we become AWARE of the fact that we are dreaming, the moment is fleeting. Is ‘awareness’ the same as ‘knowing’? Especially when that awareness is like sand falling from between our fingers?
I say again, I believe it is a mistake to equate death with oblivion just as I believe it is a mistake to imagine a dreamless sleep exists. The memory of some dreams may last a lifetime, though most dreams vanish from memory almost instantly upon waking.
Then there is LIFE. Thus sayeth Messiah:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.
And He said to the thief:
Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.
Where is oblivion, even a temporary oblivion, in either instance?
“(…save for *perhaps* his words to the Almighty Himself in Job.)”
Even then, as I now recall, the Devil was WRONG about what he said Job would do. In all instances. So when the Devil ‘prophesied’ about Job’s future acts, the Devil spoke falsely.
The Devil never tells the truth. The truth isn’t in him, and it isn’t in the deceiving spirits over whom he has dominion.
Yet Samuel spoke truth…
Consider.
1 Chronicles 10:13-14 “So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; 14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.”
The italicized words in verse 13 are added by the translator and are not in the original Hebrew text. So if we translate 1 Chronicles 10:13 verbatim, it actually reads as follows:
1 Chronicles 10:13 “So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking of a familiar spirit, to enquire;”
So this verse also actually states that Saul communicated with a demonic spirit and not the prophet Samuel! One must not base their theology on what they think one scripture shows when several black and white scriptures clearly say otherwise.
Amminadab wrote:
“So this verse also actually states that Saul communicated with a demonic spirit and not the prophet Samuel! One must not base their theology on what they think one scripture shows when several black and white scriptures clearly say otherwise.”
SOMEHOW, I seem to have missed this post. I would hope, Amminadab, that you respond to my answer. This crafty post of yours is problematic. We’ll ascribe it to a lack of diligence on your part, rather than to some other motive.
So above, you have made the observation about italics, and informed me that italicized words don’t actually appear in the Manuscripts. Thanks. Then you proceeded to lay out the verse, according to a translation which now (absent the additional words) fits your model nicely. But here’s your problem: You didn’t look up the word translated as ‘familiar spirit.’ Not to worry. Here it is:
H178 אוב ‘ôb obe
From the same as H1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father’s name); properly a mumble, that is, a water skin (from its hollow sound); hence A NECROMANCER (ventriloquist, as from a jar): – bottle, familiar spirit.
(Scripture 4 All/Strong’s Concordance)
But there’s your ‘familiar spirit.’ So according to this definition, you may have a legitimate argument. Let’s go to another source for added confirmation, to see whether in fact you do:
1) water skin bottle
2) necromancer
1b) necromancer, one who evokes the dead
1c) ghost, spirit of a dead one
1d) practice of necromancy
3) one that has a familiar spirit
(—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon))
Looks like 1c leaves you breathing. But your evidence is scant, in the face of all that remains. “One that HAS a familiar spirit” clearly carries more weight.
Let’s do one more:
ob (15b); from an unused word; a bottle (made from animal skin), a necromancer:—
##NASB – medium(2), medium*(3), mediums(9), spirit(1), wineskins(1).
(—NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries)
I’m having déjà vu. Are you having déjà vu? It seems to me this is the second time you’ve chosen to cling to the weakest possible argument with respect to the options.
Once more, I’ll go with the strongest. The evidence, in this case, points to the author of the verse you quoted as meaning a ‘necromancer’ or ‘one who HAS a familiar spirit.’ The preponderance of the evidence is against you, yet again.
Thus, Saul was punished for seeking the council of a medium. He was not punished for consulting a familiar spirit. SAMUEL was no such spirit, and that is not how the verse should be taken to read, as the overwhelming majority of the evidence suggests.
Many words do not make a strong case.
You MISquote Christ, Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.
There were NO commas in the Greek It should read,
Truly, I say to you today, You will be with me in Paradise.
His words to Mary on Sunday morning prove that He had not yet been to Paradise
He said “I have nott yet ascended to my Father, John 20:17.
Here’s a better reference than what I shared before–”Can Our Dead Speak to Us?”
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc34.html
“There were NO commas in the Greek It should read, Truly, I say to you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”
So, no commas for me. Only for you. Is there a name for that tactic? Yet you persist, despite the fact that your preferred rendering would include a redundancy, and Messiah is not in the habit of employing redundancy in His words. Eliminate the comas if you like. But eliminate also the redundancy from your understanding and the meaning remains unchanged.
Moreover, can you find a confirming witness, or even just another example, anywhere in Scripture, of ANYONE saying: “I say to you today…”
You will find no such thing. (I have software I can share with you to make that very task a simple one.)
“His words to Mary on Sunday morning prove that He had not yet been to Paradise…”
Again you are assuming. Can you show me something which tells us that ‘Paradise’ is the same thing as Heaven? Rather, no man has ascended to Heaven, this much we know. But the Apostle Paul was caught up to the Third Heaven, whether in the body or out of the body, he doesn’t know, and neither do we. Now I ask you, do the words of Paul negate or conflict with what is written, that no man hath ascended to the Heavens but He who came down from the Heavens? I would ask you again, was the Apostle Paul ‘conscious’ of his visit to the third Heaven? I’ll answer for you: In the sense that Paul had memory of the event, which he related to us in his epistle, yes, the Apostle was conscious at the time of the event related. He was ‘caught up.’ Clearly, this is not the same thing as ‘ascending’ in the biblical sense. Either that, or the Word is found untrue. But the Word is true.
“Here’s a better reference than what I shared before…”
Doc, I’m not trying to be rude when I maintain my passionate disinterest in the writings of men (or women, as the case may be) as related to the Scriptures. I am interested only in the Word, when we are discussing the Word. I care nothing for the volumes written by men and women on these topics. If you and I are having a conversation about the Word, why would either of us defer to the ‘wisdom’ of some third party? Scripture cautions against doing precisely that.
If you have a case to make, please make if from the Book. And please don’t deny me an element that you avail yourself of, as in the case of punctuation.
Four reasons why the comma is wrongly placed in Luke 23:43
Jesus did not go to Paradise that day. He went to the tomb.
Crucifixion is very cruel and it normally takes several days to die and so the thief did not die that day which is why they broke his legs. John 19:31-33 NIV “Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.”
Right after His resurrection on Sunday morning, Jesus said to Mary, “I have not yet ascended to My Father.” John 20:17. Thus on Sunday, Jesus had not yet ascended to Paradise. “Paradise” is in heaven where God and “the tree of life” are. Revelation 2:7 “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.” Revelation 22:1-2 “And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
Jesus would not contradict Himself or the rest of the Bible. He said previously that believers go to Heaven “on the last day” when He “comes again.” John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 14:1-3.
Amminadab wrote:
“Four reasons why the comma is wrongly placed in Luke 23:43…
Jesus did not go to Paradise that day. He went to the tomb.”
I would ask you to provide a single scriptural verse to eliminate the possibility that Messiah did not do as He said – namely, to visit Paradise in the day that He died. I would also call attention to the specific wording attendant to all verses which describe, hint at, or relate to, the LOCATION of the Garden of Eden. (I do not say that Eden and Paradise are the same, though they might be, or they might be related in some way.)
“…the thief did not die that day which is why they broke his legs.”
Amminadab, the legs are broken to hasten death. He who had his legs broken that day, died the same day. Do you suppose the thief outlasted Messiah by some significant period of time? On what, then, do you base your supposition?
“Right after His resurrection on Sunday morning, Jesus said to Mary, “I have not yet ascended to My Father.” John 20:17. Thus on Sunday, Jesus had not yet ascended to Paradise.”
I very plainly addressed this objection above, in my post to Doctor Ruhling. Please see.
None of the verses you quote say that Paradise is Heaven. Please make note of that fact, and consider what it might mean. If Scripture intended to communicate that Paradise and Heaven are the same, isn’t it odd that Scripture never comes right out and says so plainly? You are speculating when you conflate the two. If not, then please quote a verse which shows otherwise.
“Jesus would not contradict Himself or the rest of the Bible.”
That is a fact upon which you and I agree. What I am suggesting to you is that no such contradiction exists, in the understanding of Scripture for which I am arguing. I say Paradise is NOT Heaven. I say no verse of Scripture can be produced which proves otherwise. I say Paradise has its opposite as well, for which we can provide verses in support.
Where did Samuel come from when he was hailed by the witch? Where did Messiah go immediately after He died? Now, if you maintain that Messiah was without consciousness, oblivious in the tomb for three days, then you will have painted yourself into a theological corner from which there is no escape. But where DID He go?
Quite right. The original story of Osiris who judges the dead, is that if you fail the test where your heart is weighed against that of a feather, you are utterly devoured by a 2 headed dog like creature, not pointlessly tortured for all eternity in a fiery hell. It would be pointless seeing as there is no escape from hell.
There are three classes of people in the original Egyptian version. Those who find judgement and are obliterated, those who find judgement and pass through to an eternal paradise, and the third class, those who become lost in the underworld trying to find judgement who are redeemed by Horus, who dies on a cross and brings them all back with him on his resurrection.
My culture has a heaven and hell, but it’s more an allegory based on survivors memories. IE, you join the halls of Valhalla for being heroically brave, dying in battle like a warrior poet, or you go to hell, the place of the dishonorable dead, because all memories of you and your life are negative.
The Soul is Not Immortal
Job 4:17 The Bible calls man mortal.
Revelation 16:3 “Every living soul died in the sea.” Souls can die.
Ezekiel 18:4 God said, “The soul that sins, it shall die.” Again, the soul can die!
Exodus 1:5 “Seventy souls” went to Egypt. Souls are people.
Acts 2:41 “Three thousand souls” were baptized. Again, souls are people.
1 Peter 3:20 “Eight souls were saved” in Noah’s day. Again, souls are people.
1 Timothy 6:16 God “only has immortality.” Man is not immortal.
2 Timothy 1:10 “Immortality” comes only “through the gospel.”
Romans 2:7 Christians “seek for immortality.”
1 Corinthians 15:53 At the end, “this mortal” shall “put on immortality.”
Death is a Sleep
Job 14:12 The dead “shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep” until “the heavens be no more.”
Psalms 13:3 “Lest I sleep the sleep of death.”
Daniel 12:2 “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.”
Acts 7:60 When Stephen died, “he fell asleep.”
John 11:11-14 “Lazarus sleeps … Jesus spoke of his death.”
1 Corinthians 11:30; 15:6, 18, 51 Paul said death was “sleep.”
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 Those “which sleep in Jesus” will be resurrected.
Do the dead haunt their house?
Job 7:10 The dead “shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.”
The Dead are Unconscious
Psalms 115:17 “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.”
Psalms 146:4 When a man dies, “in that very day his thoughts perish.”
Ecclesiastes 9:5 “The dead know not anything.”
Ecclesiastes 9:10 “There is no work… nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave.”
Jesus Christ Taught the Resurrection of the Dead
Matthew 22:23, 29 Jesus rebuked those who said there was “no resurrection.”
Matthew 22:31 Jesus taught “the resurrection of the dead.”
Luke 14:14 The saints will “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.”
John 5:28-29 “All who are in their graves” will be resurrected at the second coming of Christ.
John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 All believers will rise “on the last day.”
John 11:24 Martha said to Jesus, “I know that he [Lazarus] shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
The Death and Resurrection of Jesus
Matthew 16:21 Jesus would “be killed, and be raised again on the third day.”
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 “Christ died … was buried … he rose again.”
Matthew 28:7 The angel said, “he is risen from the dead.”
Revelation 1:18 Jesus “was dead,” but is now “alive for evermore.”
Revelation 2:8 Jesus “was dead, and is alive.”
Death and Resurrection in the Book of Acts
Acts 2:29 David is “dead and buried.” His body is still in the tomb.
Jesus raising the dead Acts 2:34 David has not yet “ascended into the heavens.” He’s not in heaven yet.
Acts 9:36-41 Tabitha “was sick, and died … Peter … prayed; and turning to the body said … arise … she opened her eyes … presented her alive.”
Acts 13:36 David “fell on sleep and was laid unto his fathers and saw corruption.”
Acts 24:15 “A resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”
All Believers will be Resurrected when Jesus Christ Returns
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 “The Lord himself shall descend … the dead … shall rise … to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 15:50-55 The saints cry out, “0 death, where is thy sting” when they are resurrected at the second coming of Jesus.
John 14:1-3 Jesus will take us to heaven when He “comes again.”
1 Corinthians 15:12-23 Paul says there is a resurrection of both Christ and the dead, “but every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”
We Must Beware of Satanic Deceptions
Matthew 24:4 “Take heed that no man deceive you.”
2 Corinthians 11:14 Satan deceives as “an angel of light.”
1 Timothy 4:1 We must beware of “doctrines of devils.”
Genesis 3:4 The first doctrine the devil taught Eve was that if she sinned she would “not surely die”!
2 Corinthians 11:3 As “the serpent beguiled Eve,” so Satan continues to mislead even good people “through his subtlety.”
Matthew 24:24 All can be deceived by the “great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
Behold, the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice, and come forth, they that have done good, to the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation. ~~Jesus Christ (John 5:28-29)
http://www.what-happens-when-we-die.com/
Amminadab,
I’d like to help you–I believe similar to you but don’t have time to read it all.
Most people won’t read it–pick two or three of your best points to make and use them,
a page full won’t persuade them if two or three won’t. Offer more info somewhere.
Here are just some of the Old Testament scriptures that could be quoted to prove what happens when you die. Download “what happens when we die” scripture summary as PDF.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
Ecclesiastes 9:10 “Whatsoever your hand findeth to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither you goest.”
Job 14:12 “So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.”
Psalms 13:3 “Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;”
If I was in heaven, I most definitely would be praising the Lord. How about you?
Psalms 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”
Daniel 12:2 “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Below are most of the New Testament scriptures that can be quoted that proves what happens when you die.
Luke 23:42-43 “And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when you comest into your kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, To day[,] shall you be with me in paradise.”
Punctuation, chapter and verses were added when the Bible was translated and the above verse has to be wrongly punctuated to be consistent with ALL other scripture. The following translation of the same verse done by “The Scriptures 1998, Copyright by the Institute for Scripture Research” has been correctly punctuated.
Luke 23:43 TS98 “And Jesus said to him, “Truly, I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
The following three verses prove that Jesus had not yet gone to His Father in Paradise on the Sunday let alone on the Friday.
John 20:17 “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
Revelation 2:7 “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God.”
Revelation 22:1-3 “And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of GOD and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the TREE OF LIFE, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:”
Here is further evidence that punctuation is not inspired.
Acts 19:12 KJV “So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.”
In the above verse we see the diseases departed from the sick handkerchiefs or aprons. The comma should have been placed after the word “sick.” There are many such examples throughout the King James Bible as well as other translations.
John 5:28-29 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 6:39 “And this is the Father’s will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
John 6:40 “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
One more time just for good measure.
John 6:54 “Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 11:11-14 “These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Martha understood this as well as she said to Jesus that if He had been there earlier that Lazarus would not have died.
John 11:24 “Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
John 14:1-3 “Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”
Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.”
Acts 2:34 “For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit you on my right hand,”
This is what Stephen said as he died when he was stoned. It was obviously well known in those days that death was referred to as a sleep.
Acts 7:60 “And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”
Acts 24:15 “And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.“
1 Corinthians 15:6 “After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.”
While still speaking of the resurrection of the dead, Paul shows quite clearly what happens when you die. Paul says in verses 17 and 18, that if Christ did not rise from the dead then all those that are fallen asleep (dead) have also totally perished. He also says that Christ was the firstfruits, that is, the first to be risen from the dead and afterwards, those at His second coming will be resurrected (verse 23).
1 Corinthians 15:12-23 “Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 “Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Mankind is mortal (subject to death). When people die they are unconscious (asleep). All people, good and evil alike, remain in the grave from death until the resurrections. (Eccl. 9:5,6; Ps. 115:17; 146:3,4; Job 14:10-12,21,22; 17:13; John 11:11-14; 1 Thess. 4:13; John 5:28,29 1 Cor 15:20-23)
THE FIRST RESURRECTION
#26. The righteous dead will be raised to life at Christ’s second coming (advent). Together with the righteous living, they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and will go with Him to heaven, there to spend one thousand years (the millennium). The wicked that are living at the time of Christ’s second advent will be slain by the brightness of His coming. These, with the wicked dead of all ages, will await the final resurrection, at the close of the one thousand years. (Rev. 1:7; John 5:25,28,29; Hosea 13:14; 1 Cor. 15:51-55; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; John 11:24,25; 14:1-3; Rev. 20:4,5,6; Isa. 25:8,9; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Jude 14,15; Rev. 20:5,12,15; John 5:28,29; Acts 24:15; Isa. 24:21,22).
THE FINAL RESURRECTION
#27. At the end of the one thousand years, the following events will take place: (a) Christ and the righteous will descend from heaven, with the Holy City, the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2,10); (b) the wicked dead will be resurrected (Rev 20:11,12); (c) Satan, his angels and the wicked will receive the final wages of sin when fire comes down from God out of heaven to utterly destroy them, death and hell. This is the second death (1 Cor. 15:26; Rev 20:7-10,14,15); and (d) this fire, which destroys the works of sin, will purify the earth (2 Peter 3:10-14; Mal. 4:1-3; Rev. 20:4,8).
Revelation 20:10-15 ….At the Great white throne judgement
“and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged EVERY MAN according to their works.”
Please explain WHY do we have a Judgement ACCORDING to their WORKS (unless a degree of punishment was DUE ?), and what would be the point of going through all these Billions of people to …..Just throw them into oblivion anyway.? …wouldn’t that be a big waste of time ?.
if there was no punishment !!! ?
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
just say’n
And please don’t give me a bucket list… full of Hell on whites teachings….revskey
Whats the point of this great white judgement, if those who committed heinous crimes just go into oblivion unpunished on ur death… (Soul dies at your Death) ?.
I just see it as… that poor Soul over there.. just died, due to…(died to life)
This last judgement proves they did not Soul Die as the Sea gave up it’s dead along with all the other hellish abodes.
rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead.
God will purify the earth with fire as it says, but it does not say eternal torment. said, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked” We aren’t going to look out from the holy city and smell the smoke or hear the cries. God is not like that…
With respect that reply did not answer my questions… without contextual Scripture your opinion is just that,
No God, “does not have pleasure in the Death of the wicked”
BUT it has to be done nonetheless,
He’s going to punish the fallen Angels the Beast and Satan with…. EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT…your twisting the context. as this shows (“God is not like that”)
He’s brought them back to stand at the great white throne to receive punishment YES or NO.
I didn’t think I had to use your same words in order to agree with you. God will purify the earth with fire as it says, but it does not say eternal torment. But it does imply fire and death. Let’s not get bogged in the details of what should be clear enough for now. Thank you for your interest in truth.
Ok you won’t cant answer my query.
“lets not get bogged down then”
so I’ll answer yours.
“but it does not say eternal torment”
Rev 14:10-11 he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
He God, throws man in with the Devil, False prophet, and the beast and the fallen Angels to be Tormented forever in the lake of fire. WHY would He do that ?? its so obvious, man is not wholly physical, but has a spiritual side, just like the devil, and after his degree of punishment has been decided he’s thrown into the lake of fire …
as it is written….that’s the truth, not opinions
The devil and angels are just as much God’s creation as man, therefore the argument is invalid!
God has no pleasure… BUT it has to be done nonetheless.
Thank you for your replies also nonetheless.
Look up the words in ORIGINAL languages, and you will see “everlasting”, “forever”, even “eternal” is NOT unending, it is AGE lasting or is part of the ages…never is it ‘eternal’ because only one is truly eternal…that is the creator…and most people raise the insane “hell” doctrine above the creator, and turn his character into a creature. Look it up, the words never have meant “eternal” or everlasting. Please just admit that God does NOT torture.
Huh !!
“Look up the words in ORIGINAL languages, and you will see “everlasting”, “forever”, even “eternal” is NOT unending, it is AGE lasting or is part of the ages…never is it ‘eternal’”
let me get this right,So your saying…
Those who get everlasting life, forever and ever….DO NOT get everlasting life, forever and ever,… in your original ?
…again WHAT THE POINT of the great white throne judgement ? of
…………………….Revelation 20:10-15…………………………
If it’s not a place to deal out punishment to EVERY MAN (torture) according to what they have done ,degrees of torture/punishment assessed then into the lake of Fire….as it is written.
Parable of Lazarus Luke 16:19-31 …….(emp mine)
…and the rich man “being in torments”…” for I am tormented in this flame.”….”and thou art tormented.”…” LEST they also come into this place of TORMENT.”
and went on to say, go WARN my brothers, I have five, so they DO NOT COME TO THIS PLACE….”lest they also come into this place of torment.”
then He said, even if I raise one from the dead (Y’shua who is talking about it, as He is God ) to testify of this place they STILL wouldn’t believe that THIS PLACE EXISTS….(now He should know what He’s talking about in correct context)
“Please just admit that God does NOT torture.”
(Satan is to be Tortured, so are the fallen Angels, False Prophet The Beast etc etc)
You obviously didn’t read my previous replies, as God does have a place of punishment for the wicked, sounds like a torturous place to me, you can call it want you want, I have given… as it is written..
you have only given me your own opinion. which of course your entitled too, But if falls short in my opinion, as is not …as it is written.
tormented as per my post,.. as it is written.
Rev 20:10
Rev 14:10-11
Revelation 20:9 says the lost are “devoured” by the fire that “came down from God out of heaven” at the end of the 1000 years. Yet then verse 10 Hell Fire will destroy the wicked and burn outspeaks of “torment” forever. Which is it? If you look closely, verse 9 uses no symbolism, yet verse 10 does. Verse 9 is a literal account of what happens to the lost, while verse 10 speaks symbolically of the “beast.” In fact, every time the book of Revelation speaks of the lost burning “forever,” those verses are ALWAYS connected with symbolism (see Revelation 14:11 and 19:3). And the word “forever” in this verse does not necessarily have to translate forever. Considering the many misunderstandings we have already seen, did the translators get it right? The Greek word used “forever” in this verse is aion – Meaning literally “unto the ages of the ages.” “An unbroken age,” “perpetuity of time,” “eternity,” “period of time,” “age.” 57 times the word is used for a period of time that comes to an end. Jonah was in the fish “forever” before he came out (see Jonah 2:6). Samuel’s mother wanted him to serve God in the temple “forever” which really meant “as long as he lives.” 1 Samuel 1:22, 28.
Revelation 14:11 – “The smoke of their torment”?
Revelation 14:11 says, “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:” At least half of the verses in Revelation are taken from the Old Testament and so many verses need to be looked at in the light of all other scripture. The verse says it is the “smoke of their torment” that ascends forever and this is actually drawn from Isaiah 34:10 where the desolation of Edom is described. Isaiah 34:10 “It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.” It can be plainly seen that Isaiah did not envisage unending fires from the fact that following the conflagration in which he says, “The smoke thereof shall go up for ever,” the country becomes a desolate waste inhabited by wild beasts. (v 10–15)
Jude 1:7 – “Eternal Fire”?
In Jude 1:7, the city of Sodom is described as being destroyed by “eternal fire.” Is Sodom burning today? No. Therefore the “eternal fire” has gone out. The phrase, “eternal fire,” means it was a fire from God with eternal consequences. It was “unquenchable” by man (see Matthew 3:12; Jeremiah 17:27; Isaiah 66:24). The destruction of Sodom was also an “example” of what will happen to the wicked at the end. According to the Bible, God’s eternal fire turned Sodom into “ashes” (2 Peter 2:6) “in a moment.” Lamentations 4:6. This is similar to what will happen to all the lost at the end of the 1000 years when they are cast into the lake of fire, “which is the second death.” Revelation 20:14.
Matthew 25:46 – “Everlasting Punishment”?
Jesus warned that He will someday declare to lost sinners, “Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” Matthew 25:41. Is this fire the same type of fire mentioned in Jude 1:7, which is one that destroys completely? We know it is because five verses later Jesus clarified “everlasting punishment” would come upon the lost, not “everlasting punishing.” This is the same as “everlasting destruction” 2 Thessalonians 1:9. Matthew 25:46 contrasts everlasting punishment with “eternal life” which is given only to those who believe in Jesus. John 3:16; 1 John 5:12. The wicked will not live forever, but will finally die the “second death.” Revelation 20:14. See also Ezekiel 18:4. Hence we can see that the lost experience “everlasting punishment,” not punishing, just like the Sodomites.
“Behold, the day is coming, that will burn as an oven.
And all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, shall be stubble,
and the day that is coming shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, That it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1
“Pope Right: Hell Not Forever, Incompatible with a Loving God; Where Did We Get that Idea?”
Probably from some commercial business analyst, elitism with draconian punishment for disagreeing is killing the church, a wider appeal is needed for it to survive. It therefore has to become more based on equality and love, basically copying secular humanism, rather than on it’s traditional brutal political dictatorship methods.
It’s helping to stop the rot, where people are leaving the ‘church’ out of disgust, but it’s not gaining new members or converts. It’s days are numbered, people have outgrown barbaric religious dictatorships, so all it’s measures of bowing to peer pressure, will only stave off its demise for a generation.
Jesus Himself said in Matthew 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”EVERLASTING FIRE?” Some use this verse to proclaim the fire will last forever and ever and ever and ever… But look at this passage using the same word “everlasting”
2 Thessalonians 1:8,9, “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
The result of the FIRE is and EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION. The wages of sin is DEATH not life eternal in hell fire! Life in hell fire would mean we have a mean and very angry God who enjoys the screams of billions of people for all eternity. This is the devil’s plan to get you to believe this is the character of God. The devil desperately needs you to look at God in this way if this is going to work on you. Another passage…
Matthew 25:46 “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
Do you see the word everlasting PUNISH-MENT being used here by Jesus Himself to explain the fate of the wicked? If Jesus meant eternal punishING don’t you think He would have said that? The Bible never counterdicts itself. Jesus meant what He said. The “wages of sin is death” Death is PERMANENT. Punish-ING is an “ongoing” process. This is not what Jesus said. Nor does any verse in His Word say this. Some even preach that yes, indeed, the “body” is killed in hell fire. But, the “soul” lives on for all eternity in flames of hell. If so, I challenge them to explain this simple and very easy to understand verse…
Matthew 10:28 “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
KILL THE SOUL??? How can this be? According to all those that preach people are alive for eternity in hellfire, how can the Bible say the soul dies? I thought they said the wicked lived forever in the flames of hell? I thought their souls would spin and float in the fires as embers above a campfire forever Yet the Bible AGAIN proclaims that the WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH! The body is killed and the soul is KILLED. “fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Destroy body and soul? KILL the soul? Is this ETERNAL LIFE IN HELL? No it is eternal DEATH! (((By the way… The Bible definition of HELL = GRAVE!…DESTRUCTION…ETC)))
http://www.remnantofgod.org/Hellfire.htm
http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/
http://www.what-happens-when-we-die.com/
Some preach hellfire is a way for the saved to remember the high cost of their sins throughout eternity. When the truth is, it’s the scars on Christ that does this perfectly!
By the way.. If Hellfire burns for eternity, then why did Jesus only stay dead three days? Was He not to be our perfect Saviour and sacrifice for sin? If the wages of sin is death, then Christ died for us, and that’s that. However, the world says the wages of sin is eternal punishing in hell. Therefore, Christ (according to them) is not our perfect Saviour because He is no longer in torment, nor will He be for eternity. This is what the World preaches as the end result of sin. But the Bible plainly says in Romans 6:23 that “the wages of sin is death” right? Therefore, two lies are told to the one that believes in eternal life in hellfire.
Satan says the Word of God contradicts itself
Satan says Jesus didn’t really take our eternal punishing away because He only stayed in the grave three days.
Simple common sense can be such a blessing when used correctly. Historic fact is, Christ DIED. Biblical fact is, the wages of sin is DEATH. He did as He promised and in so doing He is the Saviour of the world!
revskey……”Simple common sense can be such a blessing when used correctly”.
Well then use it !!
I already said I’m not interested in SDA doctrines of that… witch Helen White.
“Biblical fact is, the wages of sin is DEATH” ……correcto mundo …We ALL DIE …First Death… FLESH
Revelation 20:9-13…..Whats the point then of a great white throne Judgement if everyone is.. Dead Dead ??
THEN DEATH IS RESURRECTED
“and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged EVERY MAN according to their works.”
The REASON IS man HAS A SPIRITUAL side to him (like Satan) that does NOT Perish at DEATH, its HERE where Judgement is given OUT .. like Satan …that’s why they get thrown in to be-together.this is the Second Death to be removed out of the presence of God, and the smoke will be seen as a remembrance of those who are in the Lake of Fire forever and ever.
Why Ignore ALL Y’shua said about the rich man ? “that this place would NOT be Believed even if I raise a man from the dead”….get it …that’s you!!!
So how can I go against Gods word ? …THEY WON”T BELIEVE IT EXIST.
Stop using hell on Whites teachings and use …as it is written….that would be common sense !!
Hell is a creation of mens traditions, and most christians refuse to understand that because they love to make threats towards others who do not buy into their tyrant worship. Simple as that, and of course a lot of superstition.
“Hell is a creation of mens traditions”
This is the Word of God…. as it is written.. beware ,.if not, born again, see my profile on how to escape this white throne judgement… while you live.
Revelation 20:10-15King James Version (KJV)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.