The Bible
The bible says that all governments are of God. So God is controlling all nations and having them fight each other for fun? Or would you say that at least some if not all nations are being ruled by evil?
The bible says to pay taxes and to obey the government. Who would want you to pay taxes and obey the government? Hmmm, maybe the government. (The Roman Government at the time) Oh yeah and don’t rebel, just do what you are told and Jesus will take care of everything right?
Peter said 2000 years ago that the end was at hand or near.
(1Pe 4:7 ButG1161 theG3588 endG5056 of all thingsG3956 is at hand:G1448 be ye therefore sober,G4993 G3767 andG2532 watchG3525 untoG1519 prayer.G4335.)
Was it near then? Is it near now? If the end is near now then will it take 2000 more years for it to finally end?
The Romans invented Christianity in order to unite the pagan and monotheists in to one religion in order to unite the empire and prevent religious uprisings.
That is why you have human sacrifice, symbolic cannibalism/blood drinking and the dying and then resurrecting god. Do you really think that God is into scapegoating or do you think that god will judge people based on their deeds and intentions?
Do you think that god will judge people based on what the prevailing lies of the area they were born in happen to be or based on their character?
Don’t you realize that believing that only Christians will be accepted by god is a divisive tactic? What a coincidence, the Muslims also believe that they are the only ones that God will accept. Maybe you guys should fight it out to see who God really favors? Or maybe that is the whole point of these religions in the first place?
If you follow the NT then you are not even a Christian, you are a Paulian. Yahwey, Jesus, Moses and all of the prophets said to obey the law. It is a good thing that Paul who never even knew Jesus or the apostles abolished the law for us when he said that the law was nailed to the cross ie crucified/killed
(Col_2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
so that we could all be enslaved by usurious Khazarian banksters.
Is it ok to eat pork? Yes you say. Is it ok to drink blood? No you say. Not eating pork or fat and not drinking blood are all part of the same food law. So either they are all ok or they are all not ok. Most Christians just make up reasons why one is ok but the other is not. I have a problem with this.
The bible clearly says that the Gods (plural) created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:1 In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) the heavenH8064 and the earth.H776
H430
אלהים
‘ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem’
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: – angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Not yahwey or jesus. Elohim does not mean Yahweyh. Yah never even claimed to be God or the creator.
He said, “I will be your God and you will be my people” Notice he isn’t speaking past tense or present tense. He is speaking future tense. Meaning that in the past he was not their god.
Notice he does not say I am everyone’s god or the god. He just says I will be your God.
Also, since when does god condone human sacrifice? The answer is since never. Why would God want to be worshiped? Is he an ego maniac? Sure, acknowledged, respected and revered but worshiped?
Isn’t it odd that satan worshipers also perform blood sacrifice just as Yah commanded?
The Hebrews made a deal (covenant) with Yah. Who do people make deals with to get what they want? I’ll give you a clue, it is not god. Yah is just another manifestation of zues/satan/lucifer the deceiver of nations or one of his followers.
By the way, how did that deal work out for the Hebrews?
THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES THAT YAH INHERITED ISRAEL
HOW CAN HE INHERIT HIS OWN CREATION?
1Sa_10:1 Then SamuelH8050 tookH3947 (H853) a vialH6378 of oil,H8081 and pouredH3332it uponH5921 his head,H7218 and kissedH5401 him, and said,H559Is it notH3808 becauseH3588 the LORDH3068 hath anointedH4886 thee to be captainH5057 overH5921 his inheritance?H5159
1Sa_26:19 NowH6258 therefore, I pray thee,H4994 let my lordH113 the kingH4428 hearH8085 (H853) the wordsH1697 of his servant.H5650 IfH518 the LORDH3068 have stirred thee upH5496 against me, let him acceptH7306 an offering:H4503 but ifH518they be the childrenH1121 of men,H120 cursedH779be theyH1992 beforeH6440 the LORD;H3068 forH3588 they have driven me outH1644 this dayH3117 from abidingH4480 H5596 in the inheritanceH5159 of the LORD,H3068 saying,H559 Go,H1980 serveH5647 otherH312 gods.H430
2Sa_14:16 ForH3588 the kingH4428 will hear,H8085 to deliverH5337 (H853) his handmaidH519 out of the handH4480 H3709 of the manH376that would destroyH8045 me and my sonH1121 togetherH3162 out of the inheritanceH4480 H5159 of God.H430
2Sa_20:19 IH595am one of them that are peaceableH7999and faithfulH539 in Israel:H3478 thouH859 seekestH1245 to destroyH4191 a cityH5892 and a motherH517 in Israel:H3478 whyH4100 wilt thou swallow upH1104 the inheritanceH5159 of the LORD?H3068
2Sa_21:3 Wherefore DavidH1732 saidH559 untoH413 the Gibeonites,H1393 WhatH4100 shall I doH6213 for you? and wherewithH4100 shall I make the atonement,H3722 that ye may blessH1288 (H853) the inheritanceH5159 of the LORD?H3068
1Ki_8:51 ForH3588 theyH1992be thy people,H5971 and thine inheritance,H5159 whichH834 thou broughtest forthH3318 out of Egypt,H4480 H4714 from the midstH4480 H8432 of the furnaceH3564 of iron:H1270
1Ki_8:53 ForH3588 thouH859 didst separateH914 them from among allH4480 H3605 the peopleH5971 of the earth,H776to be thine inheritance,H5159 asH834 thou spakestH1696 by the handH3027 of MosesH4872 thy servant,H5650 when thou broughtestH3318 (H853) our fathersH1 out of Egypt,H4480 H4714 O LordH136 GOD.H3068
H5159
נחלה
nachălâh
nakh-al-aw’
From H5157 (in its usual sense); properly something inherited, that is, (abstractly) occupancy, or (concretely) an heirloom; generally an estate, patrimony or portion: – heritage, to inherit, inheritance, possession. Compare H5158.
I have studied the bible for years in the original Hebrew and have come to the following conclusion:
It is impossible to read/study the bible and be a Christian. Well, at least if you are capable of being honest with yourself and are intelligent enough to comprehend words.
The bible just as any other book needs no interpretation. The only time text needs interpretation is when it is written in a foreign language (unless you are attempting to deceive someone). With the tools now available to us we can check the original texts and translations against the most official and credible translated definitions of each word.
Whenever someone tells me that a text means something other than what it says, it tells me that they are either a liar or a fool. Sorry, but it is true.
Is God one or three? He can’t be both unless he is a Voltron type God which is ridiculous. 1 does not and cannot ever equal 3 and 3 cannot ever equal 1. This 3 in 1 stuff only makes sense to truly mind screwed indoctrinated people.
So when Jesus was talking to his father (Jesus was his own father? what?) he was really talking to himself right? So basically what you are telling me is that either Jesus was insane or that you are insane.
If you look into the supposed prophesies about Jesus you will find that most of them are not prophesies at all. Such as “no bone shall be broken” That was part of the food law and not a prophecy at all. To claim that is prophecy is not just a stretch, it is straight up dishonest.
What about free will? Mary was violated by God supposedly. What about her free will? She was disgraced and shamed by God as the story goes. What about her free will?
I do know of a false God who was known for raping women, his name was Zeus or Satan as as he is more commonly known by Christians.
In reply to all of this nonsense that I have pointed out, the Christians will start repeating all kinds of rhetoric that they learned from a book or website about the bible or a preacher that they either saw at church or on tv.
There will be no rebuttal from the supposedly inspired word of God, the bible, only nonsense that was made up in defense of the bible by con men that rely on it for their gravy train to keep on rolling.
And of course since I don’t believe “the inspired nonsense of God” I must be afflicted by satan. That is what the Christians are taught. It is no different than any other indoctrination, accept for it teaches morals. Or at least it used to. If the constantly changing message isn’t a clue for you then I don’t know what is. The feel good rapture that is now being taught is just some garbage that some woman dreamed of in the 1800′s and told to her pastor. Being a con man (which all pastors/priests are) he saw an opportunity and ran with it.
What about the modern day nation of so called Israel? Was that prophesied in the bible? Most Christians will say yes but in reality the answer is no. This is what is being passed off as the prophesied rebirth of the nation of Israel, note that Israel consisted of 12 tribes yet only one supposed tribe resides in so called modern day Israel.
“Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.”
Did I miss something or do those verses say nothing about Israel being remade as a nation and do indeed not say much of anything at alll except that some dead bones will come back to life? Zombie bones I suppose but nothing about the restoration of Israel as a geographical location on earth.
God or the God’s as the bible (and many other ancient texts) tells us are real, but he/they do/does not rely on books written by men to prove himself or instruct his/their followers. Religion is a tool of oppression and a weapon that is used against all who seek the righteous path. It is a stumbling block so to speak that stands in the way of truth and spiritual growth.
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Good and evil are of God.
The bible says to pay taxes and to obey the government. Who would want you to pay taxes and obey the government? Hmmm, maybe the government. (The Roman Government at the time) Oh yeah and don’t rebel, just do what you are told and Jesus will take care of everything right?
Peter said 2000 years ago that the end was at hand or near.
(1Pe 4:7 ButG1161 theG3588 endG5056 of all thingsG3956 is at hand:G1448 be ye therefore sober,G4993 G3767 andG2532 watchG3525 untoG1519 prayer.G4335.)
Was it near then? Is it near now? If the end is near now then will it take 2000 more years for it to finally end?
The Romans invented Christianity in order to unite the pagan and monotheists in to one religion in order to unite the empire and prevent religious uprisings.
Solomon collected 666 talents of gold in taxes. 666 was therefore also read into the name of Nero Caesar the tax taker in the tradition of Solomon.
That is why you have human sacrifice, symbolic cannibalism/blood drinking and the dying and then resurrecting god. Do you really think that God is into scapegoating or do you think that god will judge people based on their deeds and intentions?
Do you think that god will judge people based on what the prevailing lies of the area they were born in happen to be or based on their character?
Don’t you realize that believing that only Christians will be accepted by god is a divisive tactic? What a coincidence, the Muslims also believe that they are the only ones that God will accept. Maybe you guys should fight it out to see who God really favors? Or maybe that is the whole point of these religions in the first place?
If you follow the NT then you are not even a Christian, you are a Paulian. Yahwey, Jesus, Moses and all of the prophets said to obey the law. It is a good thing that Paul who never even knew Jesus or the apostles abolished the law for us when he said that the law was nailed to the cross ie crucified/killed
God destroyed Israel as a state in the 700s BC and executed the remnant of it’s sovereignty in Jesus it’s king in 33 AD
Is it ok to eat pork? Yes you say. Is it ok to drink blood? No you say. Not eating pork or fat and not drinking blood are all part of the same food law. So either they are all ok or they are all not ok. Most Christians just make up reasons why one is ok but the other is not. I have a problem with this.
What? Christians consume blood all the time. Blood pudding and haemoglobin and bodily juices etc.
Not yahwey or jesus. Elohim does not mean Yahweyh. Yah never even claimed to be God or the creator.
He said, “I will be your God and you will be my people” Notice he isn’t speaking past tense or present tense. He is speaking future tense. Meaning that in the past he was not their god.
He says he was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Notice he does not say I am everyone’s god or the god. He just says I will be your God.
Also, since when does god condone human sacrifice? The answer is since never. Why would God want to be worshiped? Is he an ego maniac? Sure, acknowledged, respected and revered but worshiped?
Isn’t it odd that satan worshipers also perform blood sacrifice just as Yah commanded?
What human sacrifice? At most the same level of faith that human sacrifice demanded was called for and that alone was then considered enough.
The Hebrews made a deal (covenant) with Yah. Who do people make deals with to get what they want? I’ll give you a clue, it is not god. Yah is just another manifestation of zues/satan/lucifer the deceiver of nations or one of his followers.
Satan is not Zeus (who was never considered evil).
I have studied the bible for years in the original Hebrew and have come to the following conclusion:
It is impossible to read/study the bible and be a Christian. Well, at least if you are capable of being honest with yourself and are intelligent enough to comprehend words.
The bible just as any other book needs no interpretation. The only time text needs interpretation is when it is written in a foreign language (unless you are attempting to deceive someone). With the tools now available to us we can check the original texts and translations against the most official and credible translated definitions of each word.
Whenever someone tells me that a text means something other than what it says, it tells me that they are either a liar or a fool. Sorry, but it is true.
Is God one or three? He can’t be both unless he is a Voltron type God which is ridiculous. 1 does not and cannot ever equal 3 and 3 cannot ever equal 1. This 3 in 1 stuff only makes sense to truly mind screwed indoctrinated people.
Tell it to the Indo-European peoples camel jocky. God has only ever been a trinity.
So when Jesus was talking to his father (Jesus was his own father? what?) he was really talking to himself right? So basically what you are telling me is that either Jesus was insane or that you are insane.
As opposed to Moses and his talking tree (Jesus) or Islam’s virgin Mary about to be impregnated by the Holy Spirit?
If you look into the supposed prophesies about Jesus you will find that most of them are not prophesies at all. Such as “no bone shall be broken” That was part of the food law and not a prophecy at all. To claim that is prophecy is not just a stretch, it is straight up dishonest.
What about free will? Mary was violated by God supposedly. What about her free will? She was disgraced and shamed by God as the story goes. What about her free will?
Says who? Mary said YES.
I do know of a false God who was known for raping women, his name was Zeus or Satan as as he is more commonly known by Christians.
Zeus is not Satan. You seem to keep defining Christians as the parents of GayTheists.
What about the modern day nation of so called Israel? Was that prophesied in the bible? Most Christians will say yes but in reality the answer is no.
Christianity is Israel. People like Truthseeker and Mayhem who think that the Jewish state is Israel are not Christians. Have never BEEN Christians in fact and obviously never will be.
This is what is being passed off as the prophesied rebirth of the nation of Israel, note that Israel consisted of 12 tribes yet only one supposed tribe resides in so called modern day Israel.
There is no Israel outside of Judah. But Christianity is that Israel.
God or the God’s as the bible (and many other ancient texts) tells us are real, but he/they do/does not rely on books written by men to prove himself or instruct his/their followers.
Nor conscious beings and language either presumably
Religion is a tool of oppression and a weapon that is used against all who seek the righteous path. It is a stumbling block so to speak that stands in the way of truth and spiritual growth.
So is every area of study etc
I don’t think that the Jewish State is Israel, Meidan, where do you get that from?
The Israeli’s are Edomites who want to exterminate all goyim in the hope that when Messiah returns they can reclaim their birthright which Esau sold to Jacob.
You don’t normally come across as an idiot, Meidan, except when you use straw-man tactics. Is that the look you were going for?
My mistake. I apologize.
Fair enough and good of you to own it.
Respect.
“I don’t think that the Jewish State is Israel”
There is something that we can agree on.
The Jewish State agrees.
“What human sacrifice?”
The supposed sacrifice of jesus of course. Even if you say that he agreed to it, it is human sacrifice none the less.
No.
Homo sacer (Latin for “the sacred man” or “the accursed man”) is a figure of Roman law: a person who is banned and may be killed by anybody, but may not be sacrificed in a religious ritual.
His ‘sacrifice’ was forbidden. So He was just executed.
Also, historically if one did not have coin to pay taxes, the govs would take property by force instead so, I guess it really all belongs to Caesar according to Jesus.
Jesus sure was a fan of government oppression and slavery it sounds like.
“Tell it to the Indo-European peoples camel jocky.”
Haha, good one. You think that I am an Arab Muslim I suppose?
What ever gave you that impression.
I am a former Christian who actually read and studied the actual bible and found it and it’s supposed god to be greatly lacking.
Mohamed was just as phony as greeks and romans that wrote the NT as a control mechanism. That’s what religions are, political control mechanism’s.
Nothing to do with the righteous gods at all. Some bits of history mixed with lies.
The Egyptian gods, roman gods, greek gods and yahwey are nothing more than fallen angels/rebel Elohim that wanted to glorify themselves by ruling and oppressing the weaker class known as humans.
That is arguing that every form of religion that does not agree with post Christian unitarianism were written as a political control mechanism.
By Satan presumably.
Mongoose wrote:
“…as phony as greeks and romans that wrote the NT as a control mechanism.”
Well… Greek (speakers) and Romans (Paul of Tarsus) did indeed write the New Testament. But according to your perspective, what control did they garner from their target audience when they wrote the Letter to the Hebrews?
Specifics please.
It was not written just to the Hebrews. They were preaching to the gentiles and the Hebrews remember? All of whom were under Roman authority at the time.
So, your contention is that the Letter to the Hebrews was not intended for the Hebrews? I see. Let’s say for the sake of argument that you’re right about that. What, exactly, does that do to answer my question? Not a thing.
Let’s see if you do any better below…
Not Hebrews in particular but the gospel of the new testament was written for gentiles and Hebrews alike.
And I already answered your question.
Also, historically if one could not pay their taxes in coin then they would be robbed of property or imprisoned.
So when jesus says to pay taxes by rendering unto Caesar he is saying that everything including the person belongs to Caesar.
If jesus ever existed he would not have told people to be slaves to evil and to pay to further the causes of evildoers.
Why would God want us to give money or property to evildoers? The same people that were oppressing his so called followers.
“…the gospel of the new testament was written for gentiles and Hebrews alike.”
Who said differently?
“And I already answered your question.”
No. You didn’t. Of course. And you cannot. That is but one problem with your theory. If I thought you would engage in meaningful dialogue, I would show you several others. But the ‘I already answered your question’ ruse indicates you’re just not interested in facts.
I don’t have a theory. I have bible verses that confirm my assertions. You just continually want to change the subject. My days of line by line bible study are over.
What I have is the big picture and that is all that really matters.
In other words, your ‘theory’ only holds water as applied to a few specific verses in a Book of 31,102 verses.
And how many of those fit your bill?
Eight?
Perhaps ten?
If no one is good then that means that governments are no good and are therefore evil. From this we can extrapolate that God endorses evil or put another way, evil is of god. How deluded one must be to believe that!
I don’t by this notion at all. God endorses governments to be evil and punish the evil people. Well then, who punishes the evil governments? God.
Why then would he not just skip the middle man and punish everyone himself?
I know I am wasting my time because all you do is obfuscate and dodge the issues but I do feel I have an obligation to anyone that might read this to expose the ridiculousness of your assertions.
To answer your question, it was control of the mind and soul that is necessary to completely control a people.
God says pay taxes (to Caesar), God says obey the law of the land (Caesars law), God says that all Governments (including Caesars Government) are of God.
It is absolute control over anyone who believes it.
So, control over labor/money/property (taxes), Control over actions (law), and control over the will of the people to rebel and be free (divine right to rule).
I think that your post pharisaic unitarianism is being a little bit hysterical.
It says render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s.
God says pay taxes (to Caesar), God says obey the law of the land (Caesars law), God says that all Governments (including Caesars Government) are of God.
==
And unto God that which is God’s.
Mongoose wrote:
“To answer your question…”
Now we’re getting somewhere.
“…it was control of the mind and soul that is necessary to completely control a people.”
Remember when I asked you for specifics? Now would be the time to get specific. There’s a very good reason I asked you only about the Letter to the Hebrews, Mongoose. As I expect you know.
“God says pay taxes (to Caesar), God says obey the law of the land (Caesars law), God says that all Governments (including Caesars Government) are of God.”
Nothing doing, friend. There isn’t anything in Hebrews about taxes or man’s laws.
“It is absolute control over anyone who believes it.”
How? Why? In what way?
You have not even attempted to answer my question. The reason for that is there isn’t anything in the Letter to the Hebrews which could be misconstrued as being beneficial to your suggested beneficiary. If I am wrong about that, then please show me where. And be specific. But if you are wrong (and you are, Mongoose), then you should reconsider your position on this entire point. That is, if you fancy yourself an honest sort of fellow.
The message is seldom found by cherry picking Bible passages, Mongoose, but it’s the common tactic of many enemies of The Word nonetheless.
Where you say…
“God says pay taxes (to Caesar), God says obey the law of the land (Caesars law), God says that all Governments (including Caesars Government) are of God.”
… is a prime example.
As Meinad already pointed out the Bible actually says to give to Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. In other words if it’s money you seek then expect to pay your dues to the money changers.
As for your take on Government you’ve overlooked that said entity must be demonstrably of God or it’s disqualified. There isn’t a government on this planet which is of God, as far as i can tell, therefore obedience is a matter of expediency rather than divine commandment.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
It says the powers that be (Governments) are of god. So you should obey them as if the were god.
“As Meinad already pointed out the Bible actually says to give to Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. In other words if it’s money you seek then expect to pay your dues to the money changers.”
But how does one get money? Either by trading goods or labor for it right? So what it is really saying is that your labor and property belong to Caesar if you chose to exchange goods for money.
Here and now one cannot live without exchanging labor for money so the bible says that our labor belongs to the government meaning that we are slaves of the government.
“It says render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s.”
Jesus says that when asked if people should pay taxes/be slaves to the government/Caesar.
This is all pretty clear no matter how much you guys try to confuse the issue.
22 The crowd listened to Paul until he said this. Then they raised their voices and shouted, “Rid the earth of him! He’s not fit to live!”
23 As they were shouting and throwing off their cloaks and flinging dust into the air, 24 the commander ordered that Paul be taken into the barracks. He directed that he be flogged and interrogated in order to find out why the people were shouting at him like this. 25 As they stretched him out to flog him, Paul said to the centurion standing there, “Is it legal for you to flog a Roman citizen who hasn’t even been found guilty?”
26 When the centurion heard this, he went to the commander and reported it. “What are you going to do?” he asked. “This man is a Roman citizen.”
27 The commander went to Paul and asked, “Tell me, are you a Roman citizen?”
“Yes, I am,” he answered.
28 Then the commander said, “I had to pay a lot of money for my citizenship.”
“But I was born a citizen,” Paul replied.
29 Those who were about to interrogate him withdrew immediately. The commander himself was alarmed when he realized that he had put Paul, a Roman citizen, in chains.
Your insistence on supporting your argument with Romans 13:1 is another example of cherry picking scripture, Mongoose, for you ignore the fact that Paul very clearly presented a conditional commandment. Just two verses later (Rom 13:3) Paul states that the government authority, which is to be obeyed, isn’t the sort that terrorizes those who do right.
Does such a government exist? I think not and a recent example would be the young Danish woman being charged with macing her Muslim rapist because it’s illegal to posses mace in Denmark.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3418751/Danish-17-year-old-girl-used-pepper-spray-fight-rapist-near-migrant-asylum-centre-told-prosecuted-carrying-weapon.html
I too pay the tax collectors their due, i mistakenly said “money changers” earlier, and agree that it appears almost entirely impossible not to be part of that system. Almost though not quite. Consider the parable of the rich young man (Matt 19:16-22) and perhaps be less shocked that things are the way they are.
Couple this with the knowledge that loving this life, system of governance/finance/law, is a sure way to miss out on the next life (John 12:25). The confusion, Mongoose, is yours for God has very clearly spoken, not once but twice, on this matter.
It says what it says. If you don’t like what it says then stop supporting it.
The Roman EMPIRE officially thought CAESAR was God.
Paul, the citizen who was not a subjugated slave, OBVIOUSLY did not agree.
His would have been the mainstream view and what almost all Romans thought of as a TRUE Roman position. AND what became confirmed as the TRUE Roman position (no mere living human being can be God – if Christ is not risen then your faith is in vain).
And that would have gone to infinity with the non Romans he was writing to.
Indeed, Mongoose, Paul wrote what he wrote and Romans 13:3 clearly gives the measure by which we can know the difference between authority that is of God and those that aren’t.
Governments that are a terror to good works, while rewarding evil, do not qualify. Do you know of any, Mongoose, that fit the bill?
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Translation: 1. All governments are of god.
2. Therefore anyone who resists the government is going to hell.
3. Governments are not afraid to do good but are afraid to do evil.
This equals 3 false statements/versus in a row, unless of course the God they are referring to is evil, then the first statement at least would be true.
“Translation: 1. All governments are of god.”
All governments are INDEED of God, Mongoose. He’s actually very specific about that Himself in Scripture. He tells us that a people get the government over them they deserve. That’s called justice, friend. Consider today the United States as a perfect example of that justice. The United States has the government it deserves. To be perfectly blunt.
“Therefore anyone who resists the government is going to hell.”
Scripture informs the believer that resisting governmental authority is not what they should be doing. Rather, the believer is to remove himself from such concerns and is instead to focus his attention on the things that God has instructed us to be concerned with. Is this concept really so difficult to fathom? Opposing governmental authorities is disobedience to God and there are always consequences to such disobedience. Your ideas about hell are probably as erroneous as your other conclusions about the Bible.
“Governments are not afraid to do good but are afraid to do evil.”
That is not what Paul said, Mongoose. You have just grossly misinterpreted Paul’s specific explanations. If you pay such careless attention to the things written in Scripture, it is no wonder you have arrived at such a dim view of it all. But if you payed closer attention to the words which are actually written, it would come as no surprise if your view began to change in a hurry.
None of your three objections in this case are valid to even the slightest degree.
So you believe that Stalin, Lenin and Maou were all of God.
The North Korean and South Korean govs are both of God? That would make god a sadistic prick. They are all Koreans, why does the south deserve such a different gov than the north?
God does not endorse murder, theft, extortion, lying etc. etc.
You have just epitomized my point in the other thread about christians believing that evil is good as long as yah does it.
And furthermore how many accounts do you have? You sound just like beef supreme? And why do you not engage in debate directly but just declare that I am wrong in what the verse says but not explain what you think it means.
Even if it is better translated as: The good people don not need to fear governments but only the bad people do. This is still clearly false.
Whatever you believe happened in WW2 either Hitler and the Germans were evil or the jews and their proxy armies were.
Millions of Germans, Russian, British and American soldiers died (not to mention the civilians) due to either the actions of Hitler or more realistically Churchill.
They could not both be of God unless god gets off on pitting people against each other and watching the innocent blood flow.
You have to be really truly mind screwed and indoctrinated not to see this. If God is controlling all of the governments then God led Stalin to kill 20-60 million christians in Russia.
The notion that any let alone all governments are of god is absurd of course as are your arguments. Unless of course the god in the bible is evil, duh.
Also I should add that is is hard not to be concerned about the government when it is composed of criminals who are robbing, beating, enslaving, tazing, kidnapping and imprisoning you.
Have you ever tried ignoring a rabid dog at your doorstep or one that attacking you?
If they were just leaving people alone no one would even be having discussions or even thoughts about rising up in arms against them.
“So you believe that Stalin, Lenin and Maou were all of God.”
That’s what I said. ALL leaders and governments placed over a people, are done so according to the will of God. Nothing that has ever happened, has happened contrary to the will of God.
“That would make god a sadistic prick.”
Anyone who says what you just said is an arrogant and ignorant fool who has NO IDEA what God is doing or WHY He does the things He does. You are pottery talking back to the potter. All you can do is look through your narrow and insufficient little ideas and come up with: God bad. You are out of your mind for judging God. And more so because you have not even attempted to CONSIDER the possibilities for WHY He might have allowed these horrors to befall so many people. You thwart yourself before you’ve even taken your first step. There is important instruction being conveyed to us in the horrors of history and you are refusing to even consider that fact.
“God does not endorse murder, theft, extortion, lying etc. etc.”
By endorse do you mean condone? No. God does not condone ANY evil. But God will use evil to extinguish the debt owed Him by lawlessness – for the good of His creation. He has a plan, Mongoose. And the evil perpetrated in this world is a part of it.
“You have just epitomized my point in the other thread about christians believing that evil is good as long as yah does it.”
No. Evil is evil. Always. Evil is never good. But ALL EVIL will ultimately be turned to the good of His purposes. All of this – the history of mankind – is going someplace VERY specific. Evil is a consequence. Evil keeps the scales balanced.
“And furthermore how many accounts do you have? You sound just like beef supreme?”
I am BEEF SUPREME – something I am very candid about on the live boards.
“And why do you not engage in debate directly but just declare that I am wrong in what the verse says but not explain what you think it means.”
Friend, if you ever asked for my opinion I would give it to you. But I should not have to explain what the verses mean because they do that themselves. We run into terrible trouble when we insist, as you have done several times now, that the verses are saying something which they most plainly are not saying. Just let the Word of God do the speaking and you won’t run into so much trouble.
“Even if it is better translated as: The good people don not need to fear governments but only the bad people do. This is still clearly false.”
Hear the Word, Mongoose: The Word says NO ONE is good. Now, if governments are a terror to you, one of two things is true. Either you are suffering what you deserve for one reason or another; or you are being persecuted for the Name of Jesus. IF you are being persecuted for the Name of Jesus, then you should rejoice that you have been found WORTHY to suffer in His Name. But if you are being tormented by your government for other reasons, don’t doubt that you’re only being asked to pay a portion of what you owe, which is also a good thing. Paying our debts is a good thing and it is better for us if we pay them in this world than in another.
“Whatever you believe happened in WW2 either Hitler and the Germans were evil or the jews and their proxy armies were.”
What nonsense, Mongoose. They were ALL evil. You damage yourself with such false either-or paradigms.
“They could not both be of God unless god gets off on pitting people against each other and watching the innocent blood flow.”
Don’t forget friend, Satan is the god of this world. Satan has a HUGE say in what happens here. It’s just that, ultimately, EVERYTHING that happens will serve God’s purposes – not Satan’s.
“You have to be really truly mind screwed and indoctrinated not to see this.”
Care to reconsider that statement?
“Have you ever tried ignoring a rabid dog at your doorstep or one that attacking you?”
Have you ever considered that NOTHING that happens in this world happens contrary to the will of God? Think about that. If God has sent an evil beast to attack you, you had better search yourself to find out why and make amends. It may be for that very reason that He sent the beast in the first place. Evil turns to the Good, friend. But evil is not good.
“If they were just leaving people alone no one would even be having discussions or even thoughts about rising up in arms against them.”
If a government leaves its people alone, it is only because that people deserves to be left alone. Kind of like the people of the United States did in the fifties, sixties and seventies when they were a (more-or-less) God fearing people for whom good was important. Truth. Justice. Remember? Those days are over. What comes now will be a horror but it will be justice done.
If no one is good then that means that governments are no good and are therefore evil. From this we can extrapolate that God endorses evil or put another way, evil is of god. How deluded one must be to believe that!
I don’t by this notion at all. God endorses governments to be evil and punish the evil people. Well then, who punishes the evil governments? God.
Why then would he not just skip the middle man and punish everyone himself?
I know I am wasting my time because all you do is obfuscate and dodge the issues but I do feel I have an obligation to anyone that might read this to expose the ridiculousness of your assertions.
You have essentially placed governments in the role of playing god and that is exactly what the new testament was intended to do, make everyone subservient to the government or Cesar as it were.
You have done a very good job of demonstrating the why the bible is obviously a man made invention. It only serves as a tool for man to oppress man and that is why we know that it is not of the gods.
“If no one is good then that means that governments are no good and are therefore evil.”
Governments serve a purpose. Governments exist generally to serve themselves, which is their intention, but their intentions are turned to God’s intentions over time. You do recall that man exists in a fallen state, yes? The fallen state is universal. There are no good men. The Son of Man was good, but He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh and was not actually a sinful man. No other men are good, but believing men are in the process of being re-made like their Savior. How long the process of perfection will last, no man can say. But it is certain that no man, and certainly no government, has attained to the state of being perfected, which is to say being good.
“From this we can extrapolate that God endorses evil or put another way, evil is of god.”
He says so Himself, Mongoose. Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
“How deluded one must be to believe that!”
Contradict the Word of God at your peril. It is gross error to assume that some other source can be more informed than the Word of God.
“God endorses governments to be evil and punish the evil people.”
I would exchange the word ‘endorse’ for the word ‘ordain.’ And then I would agree with your statement.
“Well then, who punishes the evil governments? God.”
That is exactly so.
“Why then would he not just skip the middle man and punish everyone himself?”
He is punishing people Himself. If you beat an evil dog with a walking stick that you carved and engraved yourself, is it fair to say that the stick beat the dog and you did not? Of course not. Every hand on every created man belongs to God. So too do the things God wills or allows to happen belong to God. King Solomon didn’t build the first Temple with his own hands, but when he said he built it himself he was right to say so because he had commissioned and governed the work. Solomon was the sovereign authority over that work. God is the Sovereign Authority over all.
“I know I am wasting my time because all you do is obfuscate and dodge the issues but I do feel I have an obligation to anyone that might read this to expose the ridiculousness of your assertions.”
Friend, if you ask me a direct question I will give you a direct answer. There is nothing pertaining to this subject that I will ever attempt to dodge or evade. So? Be very specific. What would you like me to answer?
“You have essentially placed governments in the role of playing god…”
I have done nothing except argue from the Book. Governments all operate under the auspices of the Most High. There never was or will be a government of man which formed and operated against the will of God. This is God’s created world and nothing that happens in this world ever happened contrary to God’s will. God could put an end to all evil this very instant if He chose to do so. But He does not choose to do so and there will be VERY important reasons for that. Many of these important reasons are revealed to us in Scripture, but others will be revealed to us at some later time.
“…that is exactly what the new testament was intended to do, make everyone subservient to the government or Cesar as it were.”
We are to have nothing to do with the governments over us, except to abide by the statutes and ordinances of those governments, insofar as those statutes and ordinances do not conflict with the statutes and ordinances of God’s Law. FOR THE MOST PART, although times are changing, if a man obeys the Laws of God, that man will be of no interest to any government of men. But dark days are coming where men will be persecuted merely for obeying God’s Laws. Those days are almost here. Men obedient to God will be cast as radicals and domestic terrorists and will then be ostracized and punished by governmental authority. Many reasons for why this is so are explained in Scripture.
“You have done a very good job of demonstrating the why the bible is obviously a man made invention.”
The Bible (as originally written) is the only consistent and flawless product any of us alive today have ever beheld. Nothing man ever invented or produced is flawless or even close to flawless. But the Bible is without flaw because the Bible is the handiwork of God.
“It only serves as a tool for man to oppress man and that is why we know that it is not of the gods.”
Writing as BEEF SUPREME I asked you (more than once) to explain to me how the Letter to the Hebrews fits with that erroneous claim of yours. Speaking of folks who dodge questions and deflect, you’ve never even attempted to answer that question. So I’ll ask you again, as Elvis:
Show me where any part of the Letter to the Hebrews can be applied to your false claim.
And don’t forget what I said: Anything you ask me I will answer. Ask me a direct question and I will give you a direct answer. Let us see whether you can do the same.
I guess that’s a “no”, TCB/BEEF? Mongoose won’t directly answer despite revisiting an ancient thread in an attempt to snatch the last say.
He knows he’s got nowhere to go.
I am not reading your drivel anymore. I am not so foolish as to continue to bang my head against a very dense wall.
You can continue to troll for Israel if you like and you can have the last word. I know that is important to you shills.
I’ll leave you with this:
http://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/ritual-human-sacrifice/
“Even more peculiar is God’s obsession with first-born sons. In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said “Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me.” Later it says that you can redeem (replace) an ass with a sheep and that you must redeem a child for an unspecified price. It is clear from the context that “consecrate” means a burning sacrifice. These priests are guilty of theft and kidnapping. Since any sins in the Old Testament were punishable by death, these priests used the threat of death to extort food and money from their followers. What do we call a scum-bag that threatens to kill your kids unless you pay a ransom? A kidnapper! If these priests were alive today they would be in prison with Abraham.”
http://www.evilbible.com/
“Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered
The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 & Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person.
Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse can not be justified by saying that some god says it’s OK. If more people would actually sit down and read the Bible there would be a lot more atheists like myself. Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it (Matthew 19:12). I don’t know why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.
The God of the Bible also was a big fan of ritual human sacrifice and animal sacrifice.
And just in case you are thinking that the evil and immoral laws of the Old Testament are no longer in effect, perhaps you should read where Jesus makes it perfectly clear: It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid (Luke 16:17). There are many more quotes on this topic at my Do Not Ignore the Old Testament web page.”
what it boils down to is the golden rule. do unto others as you would have them do unto you. and it’s not ‘do what thou wilt’, jay z and all you souls who lack scruples; morality, integrity, compassion and serve yourselves and not others, IT’S DO WHAT THOU WILT, BUT HARM NONE.
also,mark passio has some great stuff about the only real sin/crime is theft. all acts we can commit against each other boil down to theft. rape is the theft of a person’s choice to choose and a theft of their body, adultery is a theft of trust and loyalty etc.
religion is nature. babies know right from wrong. it is innate, we are born GOOD.
GREAT POST, MONGOOSE.
peace.
I’ve seen some of Passio’s videos. I like his way of thinking.
Paul is a false apostle and his letters are the seeds of the antichrist kingdom. You need to study the old covenant. You will get peace and clarity when you do. The new testament has been constructed by wicked and powerful men with no interest in the well being of the common man. This is why christianity has failed and is actually idol worshipping. GOD IS NOT A MAN THAT HE SHOULD LIE. Stick to the Torah, Rome hate you.