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Do You Need To Be Baptized To Be Saved?

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Gen. 15:6, speaking of Abram, And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.”

Some people read the statements from the Old Testament about Abram’s belief in God being reckoned unto him for righteousness, and use it as an example for us today.  However, they are failing to consider that part of Abram’s belief in God was his obedience to God’s instructions.  Abraham’s belief caused him to do what God told him to do.

Isa. 7:9, speaking to Ahaz about an attack upon Judah, “…. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.”

If you do not do the will of the Father, then you do not believe Him, and you will not be established!

Mark 16:16, ” He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

John 3:18, He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 3:36, He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

John 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

John 6:28-29, ” Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?  29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:47,  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”

Believing is not just a rearrangement of the neurons in your brain.  Believing results in taking action, doing that which is commanded by our Creator.

Psa. 119:115, ” Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.”

Acts 2:38, ” Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,…”

Acts 8:12, But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”

Acts 18:8, ” And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

All of the baptism recorded in Acts and elsewhere in the Bible was a result of their belief in Christ.  They believed that He was the resurrection and the life.  (John 11:25)  They wanted that promise of everlasting life, so they obeyed the command to be baptized, immersed in water for the forgiveness of their sins.  (See also the post under “more stories” for  “Lies of the Roman Catholic Church Part III; Baptism Is Not Sprinkling”.)

Their salvation was dependent upon their action, their obedience to the command to be baptized.  Their salvation was given to them upon the completion of their baptism.  Belief encompasses the action of obedience to that belief, or there is no belief.

Acts 16:30-33, ” And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.  32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.  33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.”

Many people take Acts 16:31 and strip it away from the resulting action of Acts 16:33, and tell you that all you have to do to be saved is believe.  That is not the truth, that is a lie.  Salvation only comes after the obedience to the command to be baptized. 

Any time that the Bible says that the first century Christians believed and were saved, the implication is that they were baptized, because that was the moment they received the promise of salvation.

Sin is the commission of an offense, a wrong doing, or it is also failing to do that which is right. Sin is missing the mark.  If you take aim and shoot an arrow at a target, but miss the target, you have missed the mark.  That is the concept of sin; taking aim but falling away from the target.

John 16:9, ” Of sin, because they believe not on me;”

Anyone who does not believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah promised from all OT prophesy, is missing the mark, and is sinning.  Failing to belief in Christ is a sin.

John 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 20:31, But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

Acts 10:43, To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

Rom. 6:3-11, ”  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.  For he that is dead is freed from sin.  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.  10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.  11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

It is through the baptism, the immersion in water, that we are buried with Christ, that we are crucified with Him, that we have newness of life in His resurrection, that are dead to sins, and we die no more.  It is only through baptism that we put on Christ (Gal. 3:27).  You cannot be in Christ until you have been baptized!

Romans chap. 4 discusses how Abraham’s faith in God had been reckoned unto him for righteousness before Abraham had received the seal of circumcision.  (Rom. 4:9-13) Circumcision was the cutting away of the flesh, a symbolic and spiritual sign of casting off fleshly lusts, and putting away sin to live for God. (Gen. 17:10-14)

Today, under the new covenant, baptism is that seal of the casting off of the flesh, that we have determined to die to sin, and live for Christ. (Rom 2:25-29) Baptism is the spiritual sign to God of our dedication to Him through Christ, and replaces the old covenant fleshly sign of circumcision. (1 Pet. 3:21)

Rom. 6:22-23, But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.  23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is the belief in Christ which causes us to obey the command to be baptized. (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16) The baptism into Christ is the freedom from sin, and the reward of eternal life.  You cannot have salvation without baptism!  You cannot have eternal life without baptism!  Therefore, you cannot say that you are saved, or that you are a Christian before you have been baptized into Christ.

Baptism is not a work of man; it is a requirement of God.  You cannot parse the word of God, pick and choose what you want to abide by and throw away what you do not like.  The word of God works as a whole, and must be taken all together, complete unto Him who gave it to us. 

Rom. 10:9, the words of Paul preached to the unsaved, ” That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

Paul was saying that this is what he and the other apostles were preaching, and in verse 13,  ” For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Rom 10: 16 says, But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?”

Obedience to something is required.  How do we call upon the name of the Lord?  How do we answer the call of the gospel of Christ? 

Acts 9:17-18, ”  And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.  18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

That was how Saul / Paul answered the call.  He was baptized.  He was obedient to the word of God, and the gospel of Christ.

1 Pet. 3:21, ” The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”

After Acts, all of the subsequent letters to the churches  - Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Thessalonians, Hebrews, etc – were all written to established churches who were made up of Christians who had already believed and had already been baptized.  Many of the references within these letters speak of belief without mentioning baptism.  They didn’t have to mention baptism again, as those Christians were already baptized!

Rom. 1:16, ” For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

1 Cor. 1:21, ” For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”

Gal. 3:22, ” But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.”

1 Tim. 4:10, ” For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”

Heb. 10:39, ” But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

When you read the books of the New Testament you must keep in mind the time periods, and the basic underlying facts.  Christians became so because they were baptized into Christ.  Once they were baptized the apostles and disciples did not have to teach and speak of baptism again in the letters written to the believing churches.

But, many people today want to base their understanding only upon the letters to the churches and forget the first instructions given by Peter on the day of Pentecost… “…repent and be baptized for the remission of sins…” 

The letters to the churches speak of the belief of the Christians because their belief was already confirmed by their obedience to the command.  It did not have to be repeated, as it was understood.  They had already been baptized, so they were believers in Christ.

All of the statements in the letters to the churches referring to those that believe, – “the man or woman that believeth”, “we who believe”, “to them that believe”, “they which have believed” – are all written to Christians.  Christians, by definition, were and are those who are baptized into Christ.

Gal 3:27-29, ” For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.  29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Today, under the new covenant, the only thing that God sees now is that you are either in Christ, or not in Christ.  Nothing else matters; neither Jew nor Greek, circumcised nor uncircumcised, male nor female, white nor black, American nor Russian nor Chinese.  Today, spiritual Israel, all those of every nation who are in Christ are of the seed of Abraham, and are the chosen of God.  (1 Pet. 2:9)

If you are in Christ, then are you right before God.  You have been clothed in Christ’s righteousness, and his righteousness is reckoned unto you.  (Acts 17:31; Rom 3:22; Rom. 5:17) Only then are you good in God’s eyes, and have done good things.  (2 Cor. 5:10)

1 John 3:23, “And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”

We are commanded to believe.  We are commanded to be baptized into Christ, if we want eternal life.  (Mark 16:16).  Baptism is absolutely required to have salvation and eternal life. 

If you ignore this command, then you have not believed, and you will be subject to the judgment of God, and the second death…. the destruction of the soul.  (Matt 10:28; Rev. 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8)

If you have believed, and have been immersed in water for the forgiveness of your sins, then you have risen to newness of life, and have died to sin.  You have already been resurrected, spiritually.  You already have eternal life in Christ Jesus.  All those who die in Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at our bodily death at our last trump, and be taken home to heaven to be with all of the saved forevermore.  (1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess. 4:17; Rev. 14:13)

Source: King James.  Bold emphasis is mine.  Also posted at


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    Total 60 comments
    • Fokofpoes

      That’s nice dear, I haven’t been baptized in the way your religious institutions “understand” and promote their idiotic rituals.

      • Gina

        Many people have drawn the same conclusions because of the errors of the teaching of men. I do not promote a church, nor do I believe in the institutions of man. But, too many people are throwing out the baby with the bath water. The word of God is not a religion. It is the truth of our Creator. I would ask that you try reading it as it is the way to know Him and what is acceptable to Him. Keep an open mind, and try not to bring the bias and beliefs of man’s institutions into the word of God.

        • Fokofpoes

          That’s kind of hard hey, considering who wrote those books and expects me to believe it. No offense intended.

          • Gina

            No offense taken. I can suggest my previous post, “Are The Scriptures Really The Word of God”. Click on my name, or “more stories” to find it here. Also, there is much proof documented at for the inspiration of the Bible. God used men to provide His word, men who wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, and the Bible is the record of the Holy Spirit. You can know that He is real. You can know that His word is truth.

            • Fokofpoes

              Thank you for your concern. But here is something from some “scripture” I adhere to:

              “Consuming without feeling – a hollow life of shame
              The elders, well of knowledge – discarded, thrown away
              New gods taking over – thievery and false pride
              Burn the gifts of nature, laugh at the giver of life
              With greed raping the land
              They don’t even know what they demand, no
              And they say it’s too late – but the bastards will pay”

              That’s Grand Magus for you, seemingly quite foolish.

    • The Watcher


      • Fokofpoes


        Think about what that implies.

        • Fokofpoes

          That is, hoping to be saved from oblivion, by oblivion?

      • maxwell


    • dj

      water baptism is not required to be saved. Just faith..

      CLV Ro 1:17 For in it God’s righteousness is being revealed, out of faith for faith, according as it is written: “Now the just one by faith shall be living.”

      CLV Eph 1:12 that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ.

      CLV Eph 1:13 In Whom you also on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise

      CLV 1C 15:1 Now I am making known to you, brethren, the evangel which bring to you, which also you accepted, in which also you stand,

      CLV 1C 15:2 through which also you are saved, if you are retaining what I said in bringing the evangel to you, outside and except you believe feignedly.

      CLV 1C 15:3 For I give over to you among the first what also I accepted, that Christ died for of our sins according to the scriptures,

      CLV 1C 15:4 and that He was entombed, and that He has been roused the third day according to the scriptures

      • plsnogod

        faith equals stupidity.
        do yourself a big favour.
        read some richard dawkins and become free of these barmy non-existent deities.

        • Fokofpoes

          Really, dawkins? Come on, you’re gonna have to do better than that.

        • dj

          water baptism is not required to be saved. Just faith..

          CLV Ro 1:17 For in it God’s righteousness is being revealed, out of faith for faith, according as it is written: “Now the just one by faith shall be living.”

          CLV Eph 1:12 that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ.

          CLV Eph 1:13 In Whom you also on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise

          CLV 1C 15:1 Now I am making known to you, brethren, the evangel which bring to you, which also you accepted, in which also you stand,

          CLV 1C 15:2 through which also you are saved, if you are retaining what I said in bringing the evangel to you, outside and except you believe feignedly.

          CLV 1C 15:3 For I give over to you among the first what also I accepted, that Christ died for of our sins according to the scriptures,

          CLV 1C 15:4 and that He was entombed, and that He has been roused the third day according to the scriptures

          CLV 1C 1:18 For the word of the cross is stupidity, indeed, to those who are perishing, yet to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

      • Gina

        You may need to reread the post, as you have demonstrated one of the tendencies of pointing out scriptures written to established churches of Christians. Christians who had already believed and been baptized. Once you have been baptized, do you need to be repeatedly told to be baptized?

        This point of this post is that many people have been deceived by others to believe that baptism is not required. Why do you think that Jesus went to John to be baptized?

        Matt. 3:13- 17, “Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

        14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

        15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

        16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

        17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

        Jesus was our example in all things. He did not have need of forgiveness, so why did He do this?

        He was first and foremost showing obedience to our Father in Heaven, and second showing us how to be acceptable to Him. Water baptism is required, and Jesus’s action affirmed it.

        • Mayhem

          Did you used to be known as CrowPie? The reason i ask is i’ve got unsavoury history with that persona and have no desire to upset her further.

          Thing is i have issues with Reformist ideology and lack the gentleness required to go about addressing the matter without appearing arrogant and overbearing.

          My concern is who could i trust to baptize me? I can tell you for a certainty it wouldn’t be the likes of Thomas or Alexander Campbell.

          • maxwell

            …Mayhem…Any true Christian can baptize you…any one you love.

            • Mayhem

              Then that makes for 2 or maybe 3 folk who could baptize me, maxwell, and they all live half a world away.

              I’m with Solomon in that regard.

          • Gina

            Mayhem, No I am not crowpie. Any man that has been baptized (immersed) for the remission of his sins, confessing that Jesus is the son of God, can baptize you. It can be a friend, brother, uncle, or a preacher. If you do not know anyone close to you, then I would suggest a preacher of a church of Christ or a Baptist preacher as the safest. Just make it clear to them that you are not wanting to be baptized into the Baptist church, or the congregation. The principal is immersion in water for the forgiveness of sins.

            • Mayhem

              All good then, Gina, so buck up for the suds sister because given i reject your theological founders what makes you think any of their followers would suffice?

          • Gina

            Who are my theological founders? I only adhere to the word of God. You have the same opportunity as I. You can listen to His word, or you can reject it.

            • Mayhem

              Then let me ask, Gina, does your church allow music and, if not, where does the word of God prohibit it?

              Now before you insist on an argument from silence fallacy just know that God loves music of praise and worship including the use of instruments…

              Psa 33, 150, 1 Chron 16:42, 25:5-6, 2 Sam 6:5, Neh 12:27, Rev 5:8, 14:2, 15:2.

              … including there use in Heaven as 3 of those passages show.

              The point being, if i’m right about your church, you hold your founders in higher esteem than you do God.

            • Gina

              Mayhem, sounds to me like you are responding in order pick fights. My church is the spiritual body of Christ, as taught by the word of God. It is not in an institution of man, and it is not defined by a man-made creed. I named two protestant churches that I know baptize by immersion. The others either teach that baptism is not required, or they practice sprinkling.

              Do you find fault with any of the scripture I have quoted? Do you believe I have mis-stated the word of God? If so point it out. If not, you might reflect on what has you so angry.

              You said that you had issues with Reformist theology. That would mean that you are of the Counter-reformation theology? Of the Catholic persuasion? If so, then you do not believe in the Bible as the word of God, and were only feigning interest in being baptized.

              You might want to know that I consider the Pope to be a liar, and thus a child of the devil. (John 8:44) You could read my posts on the Lies of the Roman Catholic church, parts I – VI and then scream some more.

            • Mayhem

              Dismiss my questions any way you like, Gina, but straw-man arguments should be beneath you as should presumption regarding anger or screaming.

              I’m for Bible theology not church theology and i think the same thing of the Pope that you do.

              Music, yes or no and given you claimed to only adhere to the word of God how would you fault the verses i proffered on the matter?

              Oh and if your church reformed in the 19th century what of the preceding 17 centuries in light of Matthew 16:18 where it is written…

              “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

              … in the words of Jesus.

            • yes2truth


              God has no religion nor any theology. Both are of vain men and not of God.

              Show me the word ‘theology’ in the Holy Scriptures and show me the word ‘religion’ in the four Gospels.

              Oh and Matthew 16:18 reads very different in the Greek MSS. Try it sometime and alleviate your ignorance or go here:



            • BEEF SUPREME

              Greetings Crabby, who wrote:

              “Oh and Matthew 16:18 reads very different in the Greek MSS.”

              Does it now?

              This happens to be a verse wherein all of the Greek MSS agree, word-for-word.

              Here we have:

              κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς

              I also moreover to you say that you are PETER (Masculine nominative singular)

              …and on this THE ROCK (Feminine dative singular – for any papists in attendance)

              …I will build my the church

              and gates of hades not will prevail against it

              Am I missing something, Crabby?

              (Nice to run into you again down here in the BINs after so many years.)

            • Mayhem

              Way to miss my point, yes2truth, even though i highlighted the relevant portion of the verse.

              To be certain: Jesus (the rock) said his church (ecclesia) would prevail and my point had to do with the “Church of Christ” claiming a direct link to 33-AD regardless it was a 19th century construct that obviously did not abide since it required reforming by ex Presbyterians/Baptists.

              Regarding my use of certain words not found in the Bible, so what? There are around 14,000 different words in all of scripture and around 1,000,000 in the english language so the chances are i’ll use loads of words that can’t be found in the Bible. Was my point unclear?

        • dj

          no works to be saved. just faith.

          CLV 1C 1:17 For Christ does not commission me to be baptizing, but to be bringing the evangel, not in wisdom of word, lest the cross of Christ may be made void.

          • yes2truth

            Someone else did the baptising, not Paul. Getting Baptised is not works – period.

            Get it through your thick head:

            John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see The Kingdom of God.

            John 3:5-6 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, he cannot enter into The Kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit.


    • Mayhem

      My principal objection is that baptism, as a requirement for salvation, can only come through water immersion. In this regard Baptism puts some other mediator (1 Tim 2:5) between folk and God other than Jesus. To my mind that is akin to selling indulgences and places the church above God.

      Expressed in formulaic form the author has it…


      … whereas the Bible teaches…


      … where baptism is a physical representation of obedience quite distinct from earning salvation.

      The thing is that grace is an unmerited favour, or free gift, (Rom 5:15-16 & 6:23) but if it hinges on works (baptism) then it is merited and according to the 1st law of logic two contradictory things cannot exist side by side and remain true.

      Also the author has cobbled together passages that speak of other baptisms, ie Fire/Spirit/Water/Cross, as well as ignoring the washing away of sin in the blood of the lamb. Not to mention using verses directly addressing Jews, at a time when the separation had not yet been abolished, as applicable to Gentiles.

      All in all an agenda ridden argument that completely ignores the fact that the only work required for salvation (Rom 5:19) was that of Christ’s obedience.

      Having said all that would i get baptized other than the sprinkling i received as a child? Oh yes indeed just as soon as i can find someone who truly stands on the word of God alone. However i despair that’s an almost impossible task.

      • Truthseeker


        Repentance, baptism (immersion into the watery grave) into the death, burial and resurrection is required BUT it is by the laying on of hands that God the Father places HIS Spirit within a person.

        Our sins are washed away by baptism but coming up out of that watery grave symbolizes the resurrection to eternal life.

        We are forgiven by His death and saved by His life.

        Baptism removes sin but the gift of eternal life comes only by the resurrection

        Study “in depth” the laying on of hands and you will find that is also required to become a member of the body of Christ.

        The one who lays on hands MUST have that ONE SPIRIT of the Father, there are many ‘spirits’ running around today and I want none of them.

        I know of a handful of Elders of God’s Ecclesia that are scattered around this country, let me know and I will have one contact you.

        • Mayhem

          I disagree on several points, Truthseeker, namely.

          1) – While the laying on of hands, by an Apostle no less, is but one way to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17, 19:6) there is also the baptism by fire method (Acts 2:3-4) as well as being directly imparted by Jesus (John 20:22) or by hearing the word and believing (Eph 1:13) then there’s through apostolic prayer (eph 3:16) and finally by personal prayer (Acts 4:31) or just straight out asking (Luke 11:13).

          2) – Sins are washed away by the atoning blood of the lamb (1 John 1:7) while water baptism symbolizes, or resembles, the death and resurrection of Christ. The water baptism of repentance, John’s version, (Acts 19:4) was prior to Jesus coming which heralded the point when remission of sins changed from the symbolic to the physical.

          3) – I’m not American if that’s what “this country” means so your offer could well be moot and are these elders, of God’s ecclesia, aware of 1 Timothy 5:22? A generous offer, Truthseeker, but you don’t know me well enough to make it with all sincerity and before i could accept such an offer i must first be satisfied that they weren’t ‘spirits’ that i would want none of.

          • Truthseeker


            I do not have the time now to explain why the laying of hands is the Only way the Spirit is given, but it is one of the foundational doctrines of Jesus Christ.

            See Hebrews 6: 1 -3

            I did not know you are not from the US.

            You and I are not on all the same doctrinal pages but you understand more then 99% here on BIN.

            The “tongues of fire” in Acts 2 are the hands of God the Father,
            At that first Feast of Pentecost there was not one person on earth that had God’s Spirit in them, thus the Father poured out from heaven HIS Spirit directly upon the 120.

            And as the Apostles laid hands on others that one Spirit was given directly from the Father through them.

            It is an unbroken chain from God the Father to the apostles to others and then to me.

            PS. I never hold hands when praying in a group — I do not want what ever spirit that person may have coming into me.

            • Mayhem

              I’m very surprised to hear you say that, Truthseeker, not because it was said but because you said it. I get it a lot, as a dismissal, from folk who are unable to support their position and i had rather thought better of you. Never mind.

              My research holds that the laying on of hands serves in healing, sacrificial devotion, blessing, imparting authority as well as bestowing the Holy Spirit However, apart from the Levitical priests consecrating offerings, this was only ever done either by Jesus or an Apostle. Without relying on Mark 16:18 are there any examples of this being done by disciples?

              With respect Hebrews 6:1-3 speaks of the elementary teachings about Christ and what i’m looking for is the authority for the laying on of hands being passed to the ecclesia in this post apostolic age.

              Further more you only addressed one of four methods of bestowing the Holy Spirit, that i referenced, yet repeatedly claim that the laying of hands is the only way the Spirit is given. What of the other examples aside from by fire and by other than Jesus or the Apostles?

      • yes2truth


        Getting Baptised is an act of FAITH, not an act of works – The Baptiser does all the work.

        • Mayhem

          Semantics, yes2truth, and according to the dictionary there isn’t a significant difference between the word “work” and “act” in the context of this discussion. Regardless which word one uses baptism still has someone coming between oneself and God.

          So you say it’s an act of Faith, and i agree with that, but this discussion is about baptism being essential to salvation which you have overlooked in your haste to sow discord among seekers.

    • Mayhem

      As a follow up to my original principle objection and in light of the folk who insist that salvation is dependent upon baptism i would add.

      Is Jesus all sufficient or not?

      Either He is or He isn’t and if He is then what need is there for any man to dunk others while uttering vanities? If He isn’t then His sacrifice is rendered of none effect by folk putting their faith in the hands of mortal men.

      • maxwell

        Mayhem…Christ was baptized, shortly before his betrayal and arrest. for whatever that’s worth to you. I think he did so to give us another blessing in His name. Water has spiritual properties itself.

        • Truthseeker


          “”Christ was baptized, shortly before his betrayal and arrest”"”– you may want to check on that statement, Christ was baptized before He began His 3 1/2 years of confirming the covenant.

          • maxwell

            …OK…still a short time, seeker. gratzi.

      • Damien

        6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ—not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth.

        7 For there are three that testify:

        8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.…

      • maxwell

        …mayhem..”Is Jesus all sufficient or not?

        Either He is or He isn’t and if He is then what need is there for any man to dunk others while uttering vanities?”

        …we do it BECAUSE Christ did it. John ‘the baptist’, DIED for it…If, for no other reason than to bring your self closer to Christ.
        …..BAPTISM IS NOT NECESSARY TO TAKE PART IN THE SECOND COMING. The thief on the cross with Christ, was NOT baptized, and went WITH Christ into paradise.
        …Our “baptist” religions, will tell you differently, but they are mostly ALL misled, to start with.

        …put a small amount of pure olive oil in a little vial, and put a drop on your finger and anoint yourself at your morning prayer…The DAILY renewal…much more intimate and personal than a public baptism…which is actually for the spectators…so THEY believe, the baptized person, is really part of the program…It means nothing to believers like you and myself…We don’t have anyone to impress with our holiness.
        …Believe it. I would not lie to you about anything that has to do with Christ. I love you. A.

        • BEEF SUPREME

          “The thief on the cross with Christ, was NOT baptized, and went WITH Christ into paradise.”


          Salvation is not contingent upon baptism.

          But what I NEVER see anyone differentiating between, is salvation and inheritance in the Kingdom of Heaven.

          Paul makes it perfectly clear who will NOT inherit in the Kingdom — but there is a BIG difference between no inheritance and no salvation.

          Faith saves through grace. But only those who OBEY have any real hope for inheritance in His Kingdom. Drunkards? Out. Idolaters? Out. Sexually immoral? Out. Given to fits of anger? Out.

          Even still, we do well to study the difference between inheritance in the Kingdom and salvation. They are not the same thing.

          • maxwell

            …beef…The elect have no ‘land’ inheritance. where does that fit?
            …My craziness is intact…I think that IS my inheritance. Praise YHVH.

            • BEEF SUPREME

              Inheritance in the Kingdom means many things, Maximus.

              A priest. A king. One who rules with the King of Kings. Participation in the first resurrection.

              And where is it written that the elect have no land inheritance?

            • maxwell

              …beef…Eze 44:28

            • BEEF SUPREME

              Ezekiel 44:28

              This shall be their inheritance: I AM their inheritance: and you shall give them no possession in Israel; I am their possession.

              Um, Maximus? This verse is speaking plainly and only of the Levitical Priests from the first temple period.

              Even if the statute somehow transfers to future priests in the land — and there’s nothing in Scripture saying that it does — are all the elect priests? (See Paul.)

          • Truthseeker


            If the thief went to heaven on the day Christ died — then he got there before Christ.

            In the garden after Christ was resurrected “on the third day”: 3 days later, He told Mary not to touch Him as He had not yet risen to His Father to be accepted.

            And as you know I can not find it stated any where in the Word that any one but Christ will go to the third heaven.

            There are many other problems with that scripture one is Christ did not say the thief would be in the kingdom only paradise and what paradise is Christ talking about?

            The garden of Eden: the whole earth will have been restored as the garden of God when the 2nd resurrection takes place.

            Christ was telling the thief I will see you in the garden at the 2nd resurrection.

            • Damien

              Bonus: Jesus was buried in a garden (paridisio).

              “Today you’ll be with me in your grave pal!”

            • BEEF SUPREME

              Truthseeker wrote:

              “If the thief went to heaven on the day Christ died — then he got there before Christ.”

              Notice how, very specifically, Christ did not say anything to the thief about Heaven. He spoke of Paradise.

              Paradise is in the heart of the earth, Truthseeker. That is where Christ and the thief both descended to on the day Messiah spoke those words. He first descended (til the third day) into the heart of the earth.

              There is nothing about anyone going to Heaven in the verse.

          • Mayhem

            Thanks for the suggestion, Beef, and you can be sure i’ll do exactly that. Study the difference between inheritance and salvation i mean. Right of the bat though, based on the list you provided, i fail on two counts to have any chance at inheritance so best i learn the importance of putting that to rights.

            • BEEF SUPREME

              “…i fail on two counts to have any chance at inheritance…”

              I think I’ve got you beat.

              That list scares the _____ out of me. And even that’s not enough to get me to straighten up and fly right.

              Sometimes I just wonder if I got a double dose of the enemy in my blood and maybe I should complain to the Boss.


              (…is right where He’d give me His boot if I did.)

        • Mayhem

          That’s not correct, maxwell, John was imprisoned for rebuking Herod and beheaded at the behest of Herodias. John’s execution had nothing to do with him baptising folk.

          But you rather hit the nail on the head describing baptism as a public spectacle and this really gets to the heart of my objection in that i see such acts as vanity.

          People i meet only need to lend me their ear to soon learn that i’m all about the book and i’m talking about the sort of folk who wouldn’t have been at my baptism in the first place.

          • The Clucker

            I got baptized by a Lutheran church when I was just a baby. I never did get a whole lot of say in the matter. It wasn’t until a few short years ago that I found truth in the Word of God. Not sure if I really got any say in that matter either.

            • Gina

              NOt if we want eternal life. He created you and loves you. If you want to be with Him in heaven, then you have made the choice. We do what He says to do because He is our creator. He gives us the very air that we breathe. We do not exist without Him. Everyone of us is going back to Him whether we know it or not, and will stand in front of Him at our bodily death. So, if we want out of that judgment, then we had better be in Christ who is the only one who can save.

            • Mayhem

              Good on you, Gina, for finally coming round to understanding that salvation hinges solely on belief in the risen Christ. Took you a while.

              But where is your vote of thanks to this eclectic bunch of Bible nutters for keeping your article at, or near, the top of the “most commented” section for the best part of a week?

            • BEEF SUPREME

              “…eclectic bunch of Bible nutters…”

              Why Ike? Whatever do you mean?

              We’re as mainstream as they come.

              :razz: :razz: :razz:

          • maxwell

            …Mayhem…If John had not attracted the multitude when he was dunkin’ em in the river…he would not have attracted Herodius’s attention…Either way he died because of his faith.

            • Mayhem

              But you said it was because John baptized folk, maxwell, so way to back pedal mate but in all seriousness is it your pride that prevents you owning up to your error?

    • Gina

      You guys are working too hard at some of this stuff!

      Salvation = get out of jail free card = Being in Christ, and dying in the Lord, you are saved from the judgment of God.

      Inheritance = our reward; our heavenly home and eternal life with our Father, Christ and all of our brethren, the saved. And, all of the promises that go with that.

      We have the promise of the reward while we live in this realm on earth. It is not yet realized; that is why it is yet a promise until we get there. Think of it as what you know you will receive upon the death of your parents, as their will is read and you are told by the “lawyer” what they have left to you.

      The difference is that the will of the testator, Christ, has already been read, and He has already told us some of what our inheritance involves. We have the promise of that now, and receive it upon our bodily death in the Lord.

      As we are put into Christ at our baptism – born of the water and the spirit – then we have already participated in His death and resurrection – and are merely changed upon our bodily death to the incorruptible form of our inheritance.

      I see some other points of confusion with the spiritual gifts and the Holy Spirit that need some discussion. It is IMPERATIVE that we keep the time frame, the sequence of events, and the backdrop of the era in mind while reading the scriptures. The POV of the speaker, who they were speaking to 2,000 years ago is not our POV. We are living almost 2,000 years after Jesus died, after the apostles and disciples wrote the books of the NT. All of the present tense verbs in those books are history for us.

      The process Christ established with His sacrifice, and resurrection, restoring the way back to God is on-going for every who soul will answer the call of the gospel of Christ with a good conscience. World without end.

      The events of that century which changed the old covenant and replaced it with the new covenant are done. He completed everything He said He would. He gave us everything we need for salvation. Some things are getting crossed between the on-going process, and the closing events of the old covenant.

      • Mayhem

        I see. You’re into the Mosaic Law being abolished as well as being born again whilst remaining flesh & blood and meeting up with God at death, huh?

        There is no “heavenly home” for us. No one goes to heaven that didn’t come from there. The nearest the faithful get is being raised up to meet the returning Christ in the air which, as it happens, is within earth’s atmosphere. The new kingdom will be on earth albeit a re-configured earth.

        The change to incorruptible, the re-birth, happens in the twinkling of an eye at Messiah’s return, as far as i can tell, and the inheritance will be granted at the first resurrection.

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