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Another conversation with Roger Pielke Senior : What causes Earth’s Greenhouse Effect?

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It’s always good to chat with Roger Pielke Senior. He’s informative, and more open minded than most climate scientists. Here’s a transcript of the conversation we just had on twitter.

 

Rog Tallbloke 

@RogTallbloke

Roger. Mt Everest summit winter avg -30C. Base camp -17C. Air pressure difference 20kPa. What really causes Earth’s ‘greenhouse effect’, 1% of water vapour + 0.04% CO2 or 100% of atmospheric MASS. Think man, think! CC @RogerAPielkeSr

 

Roger A. Pielke Sr

@RogerAPielkeSr

Relative Roles of CO2 and Water Vapor in Radiative Forcing

In the second edition of our book “Cotton, W.R. and R.A. Pielke, 2007: Human impacts on weather and climate, Cambridge University Press, 330 pp”, we present a new analysis completed for…

pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com

 

 

 

Rog Tallbloke 

@RogTallbloke

Thanks Roger, I understand the current paradigm. I want you to lay it to one side and consider another way of looking at the GHE. Then we can compare the two concepts and see their strengths and weaknesses relative to each other. May the best theory win!

 

Rog Tallbloke 

@RogTallbloke

I agree it’s well established, but that doesn’t mean it’s correct: 1) Convection is not properly coupled in models because it is parameterised not calculated in a simultaneous equation with radiation. 2) Everything radiates according to its temperature, not the other way round.

 

Roger A. Pielke Sr

@RogerAPielkeSr

Point #1 is certainly correct & I have published on this as ideal application of machine training. But #2 is grossly incomplete wrt radiative transfer as it is transmission/absorption/reflectivity as a func of wavelength that needs to be determined. In clear air, solidly known.

 

Rog Tallbloke 

@RogTallbloke

Thank you. I ran out of space to flesh out point #2 so let’s take a closer look in the next tweet. Please link the paper you refer to in agreement with point #1. Sincere thanks.

 

Rog Tallbloke 

@RogTallbloke

Excellent: “models are composed of a dynamical core, which represents advection, the pressure gradient force, and gravitational acceleration; and of a set of parameterizations that represent all other physical processes”. You agree the lapse rate is fundamental. Good start.

 

Rog Tallbloke 

@RogTallbloke

Can we agree then, that if the surface air pressure was significantly reduced by a loss of atmospheric mass, the surface temperature would fall until a new equilibrium was reached?

 

Roger A. Pielke Sr

@RogerAPielkeSr

If the mass above is reduced, the optical path length from TOA to sfc associated with radiative absorption and remittance from a gas will, of course, will be reduced. And, if you lower p, T lowers by ideal gas law.

 

Rog Tallbloke 

@RogTallbloke

 

Roger A. Pielke Sr

@RogerAPielkeSr

Vertical radiative flux divergence in the atmosphere is a function of the vertical pressure distribution. The question as to contributions is not well posed. On the moon, sfc T is from balance of solar flux absorbed at sfc, radiative emittance from sfc and ground conduction.

 

Rog Tallbloke 

@RogTallbloke

On the average temperature of airless spherical bodies and the magnitude of Earth’s atmospheric…

The presence of atmosphere can appreciably warm a planet’s surface above the temperature of an airless environment. Known as a natural Greenhouse Effect (GE), this near-surface Atmospheric Thermal…

springerplus.springeropen.com

 

Roger A. Pielke Sr

@RogerAPielkeSr

 
Roger- I don’t want to spend more time on this subject. The “greenhouse gas effect” is fundamental physics and I present the reason why in my modeling book. To falsify that conclusion, you need to refute formally using established framing and publishing peer reviewed papers.

 

Rog Tallbloke 

@RogTallbloke

As you wish. Thank you for the discussion. I hope you’ll read the paper I linked and come back to it sometime, because the empirical data from Vavasada et al is solid (Lunar Orbiter DIVINER experiment) and the 90K greenhouse effect isn’t going away. It needs investigating.

 



Source: https://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2020/10/14/another-conversation-with-roger-pielke-senior-what-causes-earths-greenhouse-effect/



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