Is It The Rapture Or The Second Coming?
By Ron and Nathele Graham
There are very few subjects that are more controversial than the Rapture. Many say it will occur prior to Daniel’s 70th week, some believe it will happen halfway through that week, some think it will happen at the end of the week, others believe there will be multiple raptures, and still others say it won’t happen at all. It can be confusing.
I believe Scripture says that the Rapture (also known as the harpazō) will occur just prior to the 70th week (the seven-year Tribulation period) prophesied by Daniel. At the end of that seven-year period Jesus Christ will return to put an end to the war of Armageddon.
Daniel’s 70th week refers to the 70 week prophecy given to Daniel by Gabriel. In this case, a week is a period of seven years, so 70 weeks would total 490 years and the 70th week is the last 7 years of that prophecy
“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make a reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.” Daniel 9:24.
This summarizes the 70 weeks. Daniel, of course, was Jewish and so are “thy people” and Jerusalem is “thy holy city”. After 69 weeks, the Messiah (Jesus) would be “cut off”, and so He was. He was crucified. We are now living in the age of grace, which is a time period between the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus and the start of the 70th week.
After the Rapture the age of grace will be over and God will once again focus His attention upon the Jewish people. This commentary is not an in depth study of the 70 weeks prophecy, nor is it an in depth support of the Pre-Trib Rapture. I hope it will get you interested enough to do your own research, beginning in Genesis and ending in Revelation, and come to your own conclusions. The Rapture was a mystery, a hidden thing, until Paul began to explain it in his letters.
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).
This change that Paul mentions is the Rapture. We don’t know when this awesome event will occur, but Paul does give a clue in his letter to the Romans.
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in” (Romans 11:25).
The mystery Paul mentions here is the mystery of the ekklēsia (the called out Body of Christ). Fullness refers to the specific God ordained number of born again believers in Christ that must be accomplished before the Rapture. When that number is reached, all Christians will be removed from planet earth. There is nothing other than that specific number standing in the way of Christ removing His followers.
The Rapture is completely separate from and prior to Christ’s Second Coming. The Rapture will happen before Daniel’s 70th week begins, but the Second Coming is at the end of the 70th week. Much of the confusion regarding these two events is caused by a misunderstanding of Matthew chapter 24.
“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Matthew 24:3).
These were specific questions to which Jesus gave specific answers. The first they wanted to know is, when “these things” would take place. What things? They were concerned about a previous statement Jesus had made regarding the Temple.
“…and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” (Matthew 24:1b-2).
Jesus was referring to a future event that would take place in 70 AD. Titus, the Roman general, took siege of Jerusalem and killed every man, woman, and child there and utterly destroyed the Temple.
The second and third questions were “and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world?” The word “world” is translated from the Greek word “aiōn” and various translations say “age” instead of “world.”Jesus goes into more detail and discloses more of the events of Daniel’s 70thweek. The questions the disciples asked were from Jewish men asking questions about Jewish concerns. One big clue that this has nothing to do with Christians is Jesus’ statement.
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” (Matthew 24:13).
Today when a person truly accepts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the only atonement for their sin, their salvation is assured; it is a free gift from God. Jesus can’t be referring to pre-rapture Christians when He talks about enduring to the end to be saved. Justification (salvation) is instantaneous when we first believe, so enduring to the end isn’t a requirement for salvation today, just faith in Jesus.
[Jesus said,] “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him” (John 3:36).
Jesus would not contradict Himself by saying we have to endure unto the end to be saved. No, the disciples had asked about the end of the world (Daniel’s 70th week) and Jesus answered accordingly. At that point the ekklēsia (the called out Body of Christ) was still a mystery. Today we can certainly see the events which Christ described approaching rapidly as we occupy these last days, but today’s Christians will not go through the Tribulation or face God’s wrath.
Earlier Jesus had spoken to the Pharisees and Sadducees, and explained to them that they should have been able to read the signs of His First Coming.
“He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather today: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?”
(Matthew 16:2-3).
They should have known the signs of the time they lived in because the time of His first advent was prophesied throughout the Old Testament. Daniel’s prophecy was very specific.
“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times” (Daniel 9:25).
I won’t go through the math, but this pointed to the exact day Christ rode into Jerusalem and was hailed as Messiah. Born again believers in Christ should certainly be able to discern the signs of the times we live in. Birth pangs are increasing and they indicate that we are very close to the end, but we are not living in the prophesied 70th week of Daniel. We are in the period after the 69th week, when Messiah was cut off, and before the 70thweek.
“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)” (Matthew 24:15).
Daniel the prophet said this will occur in the midst of the week. The so called Antichrist will have come into power looking like a hero, but will soon show his true colors.
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate”(Daniel 9:27).
The sacrifice and oblation, as well as the abomination of desolation, can only occur after the Temple is rebuilt, which will happen after the Rapture. The Temple Institute in Jerusalem has everything ready to rebuild the Temple. If you pay attention to the signs, the Rapture is very near.
“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened” (Matthew 24:21-22).
This is the last half of Daniel’s 70th week…the Great Tribulation, also called the time of Jacob’s trouble. God’s wrath will be poured out upon those who remain on earth after the Rapture. This was touched on by Daniel, expanded upon by Jesus, explained in more detail by John in Revelation, and our understanding is increasing today.
To live through the Great Tribulation will be near to impossible. Accept Christ as your Savior now, today, this very minute. Nothing that is stopping you from accepting Christ is worth facing the Great Tribulation.
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him” (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10).
Only born-again believers in Christ are not appointed to God’s wrath. There will be people during the Tribulation period who will accept Christ, but that choice will be much more difficult than it is now. People will be forced to take the mark of the beast, and if you do you will forfeit any hope of salvation…you will not have endured to the end. If you refuse the mark you face being beheaded. Enduring to the end won’t be easy.
Today, Christians are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and our salvation is secured by God’s seal. Not so for those who accept Christ after the Rapture. Not having the Holy Spirit sealed within means you will have to make a moment by moment choice to follow Christ. It will be quite possible to fall away and not endure to the end of the earth’s last seven-year period.
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Matthew 24:30).
If you lived through the Great Tribulation and endured to the end of theaiōn, this is when you will see the Second Coming of Christ. Again, this is not the Rapture, but is the Second Coming. The people described in this verse will see Him coming, but Pre-Trib Christians will have met Him in the air long before this so we won’t be standing around watching Him coming in the clouds.
“But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased”(Daniel 12:4).
Much was revealed to Daniel, but from his view of the future he could not understand it. Nor could many generations after him. Daniel was told to seal the book until the end and knowledge would be increased.Throughout time people have tried to interpret Daniel’s prophecy but it has been impossible to fully understand. We still don’t have full understanding, but our knowledge has greatly increased.
We can go back in time and study many of the great expositors of God’s Word, men respected throughout the ages, and as we do we find that in some instances they’ve erred in their interpretations. Why? Because the knowledge they needed to fully grasp prophecy was sealed up until the last days. Today, God is unsealing the book for those who will diligently seek His truth. It’s exciting to study these end times in which we live using God’s Word as a guide. I have hardly touched on the subject in this commentary.
Every Christian should feel an urgency to share the gospel. Don’t miss any opportunity to tell someone about Jesus and salvation. It could be that if you don’t tell them nobody will.
“Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:14).
God wants everyone to come to Him for salvation, and so should we.
God bless you all.
Ron & Nathele Graham
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/graham/g394.html
www.straitandnarrowministry.com
Previous commentaries archived athttp://www.raptureready.com/featured/graham/graham.html
All original Scripture is “theopneustos” (God breathed).
This commentary was started by Ron Graham before his death on March 14, 2013, and finished by his wife, Nathele Graham.
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Whistler Blowers, Insiders
WOW are you confused!!!
Out of the abundance of your heart, your mouth…speaks.
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
“Truthseeker”, the Truth is foolishness to you.
What A Brilliant Confirmation And An Excellent Read…
Get Ready Peeps ~ Time Is Short.
Agreed.
We are of the “few”, Bob.As you can tell by all the comments by the spirit of Anti Christ=In Place Of..the Truth.
Notice how the rapture is attacked so, and very often in a rabid, vicious manner? In recent months, I’ve heard comments from a number of prominent ministers the level of hatred and anger the pretribulation rapture is causing, people trying to get them removed from radio stations, very vicious email comments everybody is getting: this testifies of something that has the devil’s shorts in a bunch. The louder they holler, the more you know that, where there’s smoke, there’s fire. “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
2 Peter 3:3-6 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
Well said!
Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
1 Corinthians:17-31
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
For those with ears to hear and eyes to see-King James Bible AV 1611
1 Corinthians:17
“For Christ sent me not to baptize,”
Hey Paul, how is that ?
“baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit….”
Matthew 28 Command to those who are sent out to make disciples.
YHWH or Yahweh is a God, who has given us a pattern of Rescue (Noah & Lot), a PRECEPT of RESCUE for the godly/righteous and ONCE AGAIN He will show the World His PRECEPT of RESCUE, that those who are accounted worthy to escape All these things Luke 21:36, and those who are LEFT BEHIND,who are foolish !! and the SHAME of their Nakedness will be revealed to ALL, parable of the 10 virgins. Matthew 25
as it is written below,.. but these are (mine) emp mine.
Malachi 3:16-18 – 16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name. 17 “They will be Mine, (BRIDE) ” says the LORD of hosts, “on the day that I prepare My own possession (WIFE) ,
and I WILL SPARE THEM as a man spares his own son who serves him.”
18
So YOU will AGAIN DISTINGUISH between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him…….
(Nakedness will be revealed at the rapture, bride disappears, nakedness appears for those left behind) rev 3:18
2 Peter 2:9
9then the Lord knows how to RESCUE the godly (righteous) from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
as He PROMISED .Revelation 3:10
10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you FROM the hour of temptation, THAT hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11′I am coming quickly;
hold fast what you have,
The order of things as it is written.
Isaiah 26:19-21 – 19 But YOUR DEAD WILL LIVE; their BODIES WILL RISE. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. 20 GO, MY PEOPLE, ENTER YOUR ROOMS and shut the doors behind you; HIDE YOURSELVES for a little while UNTIL HIS WRATH HAS PASSED by. 21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
LOOK AT THE TIMELINE HERE. The scripture says God raises His people, THEN THEY GO INTO their rooms (same rooms that Jesus has created for us in John 14:1-3),
2In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and RECEIVE YOU TO MY SELF; that where I am, there you may be also.1“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
Reason…Bride is NOT destined for WRATH… Any Wrath.
(1 Thessalonians 5:9,)… “For God hath not appointed us to wrath”
To clarify
1/ Dead and living in Christ are raised and GO OUT to enter their rooms (IN HEAVEN, in my fathers House), DOOR SHUT BEHIND THEM.parable 10 virgins completed.
2/ Go into the place that Y’shua has prepared for the BRIDE Revelation 3:14-22 and Hide yourself FROM HIS WRATH.
3/ THEN God COMES OUT of His dwelling place to punish the inhabitants of Earth.
Thus, this clearly shows He fulfills His PRECEPT of the, (Law of RESCUE), ONCE AGAIN… as PROMISED….as God does NOT change.
Maranatha……. PTR is built on Solid Rock
as it is written.
2/ Go into the place that Y’shua has prepared for the BRIDE Revelation 3:14-22 and Hide yourself FROM HIS WRATH.
that should be verses, Revelation 3:10 and John 14:1-3
OK … lets start from scratch . The truth is vested in a different interpretation of Daniel resulting in a non-secret, Jew-less, millennium-free gathering of the saints immediately followed by the destruction of the Earth… anything to the contrary being part of the great end-time deception prophesied by Paul. Daniel 9: 24 states that 70 weeks will be required to accomplish seven things … all of which were fulfilled by 70 a.d. … two of which were to seal up vision and prophecy …. ergo … the book of Revelation is not acceptable. Daniel 9:25 begins the countdown with the 552/3 (or 556) decree of Cyrus leading to the birth of Christ 552 years later (possibly 556 if you deduct the 4 years that Augustus reigned as Octavian). This is 7 weeks plus 62 weeks (if you will … 70 x 7 plus 62 = 552). Daniel 9:26 and 27 then requires a final week of 70 years with the Messiah centered on the cross and the Jews left desolate up to the 70 a.d. destruction by Titus. The so-called millennium of Revelation is the Church age (Jew and Gentile) and the great tribulation was the period of desolation leading up to 70 a.d. The covenant was confirmed by Christ and His was the final sacrifice . Nothing remains but to observe the signs and look to Christ’s return, the gathering of the saints and the destruction of the Earth. The fulfillment of the Gentile times (Luke 21:24 is only followed by these events … nothing purely Jewish). QUESTIONS
Out of the abundance of your heart, your mouth…speaks.
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Your “logic” of spiritual things is based on mental, carnal, Cemetery(seminary)….training.
Your “wisdom” is foolishness to God…
Cooter … This is interesting …. all of us Christians use our logic and wisdom to seek the truth and having found our spot we are all too hard on all of the others … not in the spirit of Romans 14:17. We all have a particularly strong doctrine and we tend to accuse others of abiding in the opposite area as in strong delusion. The comments reveal all of this on an individual basis. Truthseeker loves the law and sees those weak in ordinance as too strong in grace. Bob and yourself are Schofield KJV strong types. The Clucker is an atheist . Me … strong on grace and Paul and favor KJV for beauty and integrity . I began where you are Cooter….Schofield only and cocky but have come to the position above as to Daniel. Now here is the point … there is a strong delusion, or at least there is in the last days a spirit of delusion … which position is it … too much law … too much grace … too much atheism … too much KJV … not enough KJV … too much Schofield ? What delusion could be stronger than to not know who you are if you are indeed spiritual Israel ? Galatians 6:16
“Truthseeker… …sees those weak in ordinance as too strong in grace.”
That sounds to my ears strangely like false witness, Mike. I’ve read your exchanges with Truthseeker. I know what he’s said to you and what he hasn’t. That’s why I won’t bother asking you to provide a quote by him which supports your above witness… I won’t ask because I know you can’t provide.
“The Clucker is an atheist.”
Clucker has never, not once in all my time here at this website, identified as an atheist. All he says repeatedly is that he is agnostic. You know as well as I do that there is a monumental difference between the two. Is it false witness you bear, Mike? Or is it only the result of slack attention to detail.
“What delusion could be stronger than to not know who you are if you are indeed spiritual Israel?”
There is no ‘spiritual’ Israel. One is either Israel, or one is not. Living in a land filled with a people to have inappropriately and improperly imputed that name to themselves, does not make one an Israelite. One is an Israelite according to the Word, or not at all.
Walter … this post is pretty much over but I welcome an exchange with you as your forte is obviously logic and detail which I appreciate. The point was not to make the Clucker look bad more than usual and I grant he may be a mere fearpornophobic agnostic shill. The point that we Christians are the only Israel that exists today, I suspect may be shared by you. The Truthseeker is a mere legalistic truth-speaker which you may verify at his BIN article “7 foundational doctrines from Heb: 6 ” … or similar title. My question to you … why do you always carp at these minor details without addressing the important issues? The only Israel that exists today is the spiritual Israel of Galatians and this mightily effects our end-time situation would you not agree? Let’s find some common ground for future comments. … best wishes Mike …ps .. I appreciated your defense of Paul.
“…I grant he may be a mere fearpornophobic agnostic shill.”
Would you grant also there is a major difference between ‘atheist’ and ‘agnostic’?
“The point that we Christians are the only Israel that exists today, I suspect may be shared by you.”
I would agree that Israel is comprised of those who seek after the Way, the Truth and the Life.
“The Truthseeker is a mere legalistic truth-speaker…”
What is a legalistic truth-speaker? One is either a speaker of truth, or one is not. Truthseeker is our brother in Messiah and unless you’re older than 75, he’s our elder as well. Please try to remember that. Truthseeker sees plainly that not one jot or one tittle of the Law has been done away with. Truthseeker also sees plainly that salvation comes to us only through the Grace of our Father in Heaven – a direct correlation with our faith in Messiah; which faith is given TO us from on High, and not something we generate from within on our own. That is why righteousness belongs to the Most High and not us. That is why justification belongs to the Most High and not us. The Law never justified – not anyone who offends in even the slightest part of it. To offend in any is to become guilty of all and we were ALL guilty. All but One. We needed Messiah to save us from that burden, which burden we could not otherwise have become free of. We are no longer under the burden of the Law. But that is not the same thing as saying we are no longer obligated to pursue obedience to the Law. Where we fall short, we have a Mediator with the Most High.
“My question to you … why do you always carp at these minor details without addressing the important issues?”
Which are the important issues you’d like to see me address?
“The only Israel that exists today is the spiritual Israel of Galatians and this mightily effects our end-time situation would you not agree?”
I don’t believe in ‘spiritual Israel.’ I believe in Israel.
“Let’s find some common ground for future comments.”
Common ground: Our faith in Messiah and our belief in His Sacrifice and Resurrection. Beyond that, there is probably still a little time left for us to work out the specifics. But I’d say the main bases are fairly well covered. We agree on far more than we disagree.
Atheist vs agnostic … you got me thinking as I pretty much use them interchangeably … see Wik “Atheist vs agnostic” excellent article … so one deals with faith and one deals with knowledge but these two overlap and weak and strong and atheistic agnosticism and agnostic atheism etc. … I suppose Clucker may be a gnostic atheist and we are gnostic theists. ………… Truthseeker/Truthspeaker just a play on his intransigence and inability to listen, and his love for only the Hebrew Paul and I would judge an elder as one longer or deeper in the Lord which could be a Timothy …………….. I agree with you on free will as that is where I part from the Baptist decision which makes it a work of free will … I further believe that we must continue to serve God in this same vein of yielding to the Spirit and not working on the flesh which is a hopeless body of death……….. important issues for me concern the following of Paul …. the rebuke of Zionism …. end-time events….. I prefer the KJV but have an unusual faith in this regard which I do not normally post as it would offend to many Christians …. suffice it to say that I am not as bad as Marcion , but like Luther I reject James and Revelation. Our scriptural foundation is extremely important and it is not the B.I.B.L.E. jot and title Schofield Sunday-school version of truth…. albeit the truth must be encased in something and praise God for it… spiritual discernment is more than a mute acceptance of the book as is ……… what is the strong delusion… is it a general atmosphere or a specific doctrine held by we Christians now in the end-time ? Could it be the physical Israel deception ?
“…and we are gnostic theists.”
Hopefully you don’t mean that in the sense of ‘Gnosticism.’ Gnosticism is for the ‘birds.’ Do you know who the ‘birds’ are?
“Truthseeker… …his intransigence and inability to listen…”
I see that as a result of his many miles traveled. He’ll never take your opinion over his – or anyone else’s opinion over his for that matter. Why should he? He’s been places we haven’t. And if you can argue objective opinion based solely on the Word and nothing else, then your objective opinion would have to be far better than his objective opinion before he should even weigh them both against each other in the balance. Folks have a very hard time differentiating between subjective opinion and objective opinion. An opinion based on the Word is still an opinion. But folks become very attached to their subjective opinions and end up confusing opinion for Scripture. Truthseeker will never hear an argument that the Law is no more. He’s made up his mind on that count. He’s drawn a conclusion based on the Word. As it happens, I agree with his conclusion.
“…his love for only the Hebrew Paul…”
Is there some other Apostle Paul besides the Hebrew Apostle Paul? Forget about modern Judaism. Modern Judaism has nothing at all to do with the Ancient Hebrews. Well, they have something to do with Ancient Israel, just not what they tell us. But your apparent distaste for Hebrews is based (unless I’m mistaken) on your understanding of modern Jewry. That’s why you object to things Hebrew. You might want to re-think that.
“…this same vein of yielding to the Spirit…”
Right on. That is what we should be doing. Not talking about Free Will.
“…and not working on the flesh which is a hopeless body of death…”
One to be discarded. Not perfected and made immortal – the way Luciferian doctrine teaches.
“…important issues for me concern the following of Paul …. the rebuke of Zionism…”
I think you mean the rebuke of Pharisee-ism. Had anyone even heard of Zionism back in Paul’s time?
“…but like Luther I reject James and Revelation…”
Uh oh. There shouldn’t be any rejecting James if you don’t reject Paul. I can show you verse by verse that James never said anything Paul didn’t say. James wasn’t a works-based believer; he was a teacher who rightly concluded that belief is what saves (through His Grace), but then what comes next? We just sit on azz and wait for Messiah? Hell no, we don’t. There is work to be done. This is a process of helping our brethren and becoming like Messiah. We’re not re-made in His image yet. We are being re-made. And Revelation? What is it that offends about Revelation? Also, tread carefully when comparing yourself to the father of Protestantism. The Protestant Revolution was a meticulously crafted answer to an intractable problem facing Rome in the late fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries – the advent of the printing press. That’s when Rome lost containment of the Scriptures. Rome needed to get out in front of a very predictable backlash once people began reading Scripture for themselves. The entire ‘Reformation’ was orchestrated, almost entirely, by agents of the Roman Rite. Luther was no exception. Not one part of the 66 Books of Canon Scripture should be rejected – save for the few verses we can prove have been altered.
“…jot and title Schofield Sunday-school version of truth…”
Schofield and other Christian ‘traditions’ should not even enter into a discussion of Scripture. The texts themselves are the only matter worth discussing and contemplating. Everything else can be safely thrown away without ever looking back. The Masoretic Text and the Textus Receptus can be studied and the few flaws (alterations) in them can be ferreted out and corrected through detective work. The early Church ‘fathers’ wrote extensively and when they did, they often quoted Scripture. No one thought to edit the letters of the Church fathers to reflect the changes made to the Word, so we can repair the minor breaches that we have inherited with the Word.
The King James Version is by far my favorite translation. But it is not without its flaws. Anyone who convinces himself otherwise is asking for trouble.
“…what is the strong delusion… is it a general atmosphere or a specific doctrine held by we Christians now in the end-time?”
That’s sure to be but a small part of it.
“Could it be the physical Israel deception?”
That’s another part. There’s a god coming. Whether this god arrives in ‘his’ own chariot, or we create ‘him’ through technology/transhumanism/artificial intelligence, makes no difference. That will be the culmination of our deception. That advent will be the capstone on the pyramid. And the establishment of something vile which people will be lining up to make a part of themselves, will be the rest. The coming god wants us all to become functionally integrated with ‘him.’ Flee that. No matter how powerful and how wonderful they make it look. Or make ready for Aionian Fire.
Mike.
I will not get into a theological debate with you because I can’t. You are obviously of greater intellect than I. So let’s keep this simple.
On the subject of Clucker who you call a “mere fearpornophobic agnostic shill”. I take great exception to the negative connotations of that comment.
Clucker is my friend and I love him as a future brother in Messiah.
Let me tell you about the Clucker who I have come to know and love as his Mother of sorts. (I am 68).
Clucker recognizes the basic hypocrisy of the “fear for profit industry” that has been built up within some so called Christian ministries and has the decency to call them out on it.
Note the action. “Salt”.
Clucker is sensitive to the fact that these “Men of God” are living large while many of their followers live very modestly while sending their ministries money that could have been used to help a neighbor or pay the tax bill.
Note the action “empathy”
Clucker recognizes the lies and deception and is disgusted by them.
Again action. “Reightous indignation”
Clucker saw my personal pain that resulted from these “fear for profit” ministries and reached out to me.
Note action “Compassion”
I appreciate Clucker and pray everyday that he will join me in heaven some day. Clucker in many resepts is more “Christian” than many Christians.
I will pray and be patient with my friend.
Cluck!
I suppose birds are cardinals and yes, gnosticism is not my cup of tea. I just had a flash of insight that you are anti-catholic, as am I … but it would seem that you and the Truthseeker are attached at the waist as to your similar views and defensiveness in his regard … I wonder if your age is also 75 ………… by Hebrew Paul I mean the writer of the book of Hebrews who would not even sign his name to the document least it be thought to apply to Christians in general. ………. by Zionism I mean the fake Khazar-jews that Christian-zionists love ……….. Revelation is a graceless hodgepodge of Old Testament imagery that was written post-70 a.d. and does not sound like John. …..I will let you go now and best wishes … catch you down-line.
“I just had a flash of insight that you are anti-catholic…”
Well-perceived. Anti-Roman Rite, I would add. Not anti-Catholics, per se. I’m not against the Catholic ‘faithful’ who believe the lies Rome sells them. But they really should study more. Of course there are always intelligent and well-studied folks like Louis, the regular commenter here. Hours of study have not managed to disentangle him from the bonds of Rome.
“…as to your similar views and defensiveness in his regard…”
We defend the brethren, no? Peacemakers are what we’re supposed to be. These are important issues, but they’re minor in the light of Messiah’s personal commandments to us.
“I wonder if your age is also 75…”
Barely 43. Truthseeker has me by more than three decades.
“…by Zionism I mean the fake Khazar-jews that Christian-zionists love…”
Excellent. You and I have more in common than you think. Do you know who the Khazars were before they were the Khazars?
“Revelation is a graceless hodgepodge of Old Testament imagery that was written post-70 a.d. and does not sound like John.”
Did you ever think to question your reckoning of the Book before you accused the Book itself? Maybe you have. But it seems to me that Revelation is the hardest Book in the Bible to rightly comprehend. Harder even than Daniel or Isaiah. So a little consternation and bewilderment might be in order. Have you ever studied the structure of Revelation; structure as a literary work, I mean? Whoever the author may or may not sound like to you, to behold the framework of that Book is to behold the signature of our Creator in all His Brilliance, as it is with the framework of the Bible as a whole. Revelation has His ‘fingerprints’ all over it. A graceless hodgepodge wrought by the creation of man, it most certainly is not.
Barb … well stated … I just originally used the Cluck to make the point that we should not attack each other from our strong forts. I really had no idea he would be offended, and certainly would have no objection to his conversion. I am relatively new to this venue and am surprised by the camaraderie what with Ken defending the Clucker and Walter aiding the Truthseeker and now you barking at the stranger in Cluck’s yard. I guess this is a strange place and a strange time for strange people to meet in an arena of comment. In a weird sort of way I feel as though I might fit in here much better than in any pew I ever sat in. best to you Mike ACTION remorse
I wonder what the Cluckmeister thinks of having all these Bible thumpers defending his character?
Well mannered debate, guys-n-gals, making for interesting reading.
WALTER …… you do realize that Erasmus put the Bible together for Constantine with the disputed books to the rear ……….. Peacemaker … I thought you were an agitator ……….. Mongols …. became Khazars and are still trying to herd us together for the kill………….Aionian fire … whoof like Sodom ( not eternal Luciferian torture but as described in II Thessalonians 1:9) ……….. Elder … pay attention I am 72…………Revelation … Jesus is not the morning star of Venus but Lucifer is … where is the tribe of Dan? … careful or you will be cursed… written after 70 a.d. … where is free will and grace … lakes burning with fire … I come quickly … etc. etc.
“…Erasmus put the Bible together for Constantine with the disputed books to the rear…”
Erasmus attended the council, but he wasn’t very instrumental in the Bible’s construction. Don’t forget this one salient fact: the Bible was never meant to be disseminated among the uninitiated. High level initiates into the Ancient Mysteries were the only people – they were amongst the only people who could read at the time (circa 315-320 A.D.), but they were also the only people who were permitted to read or even to possess a copy of the Scriptures. The penalty for unauthorized possession of the Scriptures was death. So whether ‘disputed’ or not, the Scriptures once canonized were never intended to be shared with we the catechumens; we the cattle; we the profane. Guttenberg had other ideas.
“…I thought you were an agitator…”
I am that too.
“…Mongols …. became Khazars…”
Wrong color. Wrong ethnicity entirely. The true score on that subject is far more spectacular and is a major confirmation for the truth and power of the Bible’s recounting of ancient events.
“…and are still trying to herd us together for the kill.”
They are indeed. But they’re not Mongols.
“…not eternal Luciferian torture but as described in II Thessalonians 1:9…”
It’s not ‘eternal’ when Paul says it either. It’s ‘aionian.’ It’s age-abiding.
“…Elder … pay attention I am 72…”
A good age at which to be a believer. Yes – elder.
“…Revelation … Jesus is not the morning star of Venus but Lucifer is…”
No one said anything about Venus in Scripture. That is outside lore imported into the Word.
“…where is the tribe of Dan?…”
Ephraim (the BIN commenter) just posted an article about that. Good article. Check it out:
/prophecy/2015/08/the-snorting-of-dans-horses-2471642.html
Mike wrote:
“In a weird sort of way I feel as though I might fit in here much better than in any pew I ever sat in.”
Strange days, these. But don’t get too comfortable. Always watch your ‘six’ when you tread these waters. The walls have ears and the halls are full of deception. But the brethren are looked out for by other brethren. We know our own.
If you’re 72 then you know the rules: Powder dry. Bible handy.
Git er Done.
Thank you, barbf and Walter. This bird appreciates you coming to his defense.
mike,
At no point have I ever said I am an athiest. As Walter stated I have mentioned being agnostic on several occasions.
As for the things I’ve said to you in the past…
I’m obviously a crass individual and you seem to single out my comments so anything I’ve aimed back at you was your making.
You call me a “fearpornophobic.” I’m not afraid of fear porn so that makes no sense. I just like to point out the contributors’ BS just in case there may be new faces around that may buy into it and be led astray. If you’ve heard barbf’s story you would know they screwed her and I don’t want that to happen to anyone else.
Lets let bygones be bygones, guy.
Thanks again Walter and barbf.
Why do “Christians” think they can easily get out of the mess they (and their ancestors) help create? There is no rapture. Sorry, God, the good Father, knows how to raise his children better than just letting them trash things and take them up without having to pay for the mess.
There is no way out except Christ … the Way … He will come for us soon. Do you really think the world would be a nice place to live without Christianity … do you really blame all of the problems on Christ ?
I don’t blame Christ at all. He is the Savior. But Christians have had 2000 years to try to show they can live like Jesus did. If Jesus returned and taught the core issues he taught, he would be labeled a terrorist and radical. Not much different from when he walked 2000+ years ago and was condemned by the public. Nothing has really changed.
Agreed … the Church has failed … but we are yet more than hypernike !
It is not the “Church” that will save you. It is not a “Religion” that will save you. There are many “Christians” that will also miss out. Because it is through Christ Jesus, the Nazarene, in whom you shall be saved when you call upon Him, and Him alone.
It’s not a religion that saves, it’s a relation. A personal loving relationship with Christ that will usher you into His Kingdom. Nothing more, nothing less.
Keitan
You are correct, if Christ came back today the 4000 flavors of the confusion call christianity would rise up together and slay Him again.
If you study prophecy – Christ said “They” “the so called “christians” are going to rise up and will kill you thinking they Do — ME –, Jesus Christ, a service.
To do Christ a service they must consider themselves christians.
The world has no idea who Jesus Christ is they keep talking about love and meekness, when Jesus Christ returns as King of king with HIS Angelic army, that is what host means, and slays HIS enemies HIMSELF by the hundreds of millions they will not understand.
Christ returns as a Warrior KING and He will rule with a ROD OF IRON.
You and Keitan can comfort each other in your delusions.
Yea let God be true and everyman a liar, As it is Written.
The Blessed Hope, Day of Christ and the catching away of the saints is as real as the Word of God-King James Bible AV 1611.
king James ?
Do you appreciate the OT text being thoroughly manipulated by the anti-christ mesoretic
translators ?
Not to mention some of the greek.
cooter slapsilly
The Bible is based upon Logic, God created logic.
So lets consider the facts logically, every single person God called and dealt with in the old testament has died and are yet in their graves, Abrahan has been there for a few thousand years.
Many of them have gone through suffering that folks today could never stand. It is said and I am sure can’t be proven that all of the apostles but John were killed, Look at Steven, Look at Christ Himself.
Then look at Paul and all of the stoning , ship wreaks ect and then it is said Rome killed him in the Colosseum.
So now all the so call christians of today, at least those that demand to be “”snatched”" from earth, how are they living?
Are they chased from city to city — no. Is anyone trying to stone or kill them? No!
BUT they have gone to sunday school every now and then and at easter they eat a ham and at xmas the give great presents to each other. And they drop a few dollars in the plate ever so often.
So God lets all and I mean all the others suffer and die but these so called christians today are going to be spared the great tribulation??
Spared from the Beast as he make war against the Saints of God for 3 1/2 years.
WHY ???
What is so special about you?? What have you accomplish for God?? What great service what great work have you provided?
Why do you not have to endure until the end??
When the dying begins and the pope works miracles you will run to him and you will turn on the Saints of God and KILL THEM.
Keitan, YOU ASK: Why do “Christians” think they can easily get out of the mess they (and their ancestors) help create?
Keitan, some Christians think this way because they have chosen to believe a lie. The Bible calls THE STRONG DELUSION and Christians are not exempt as some of us would arrogantly have you believe. Even Christians can believe a lie if they want to and when they do sadly God lets them. We have free will.
But Keitan, you are obviously not stupid. Accept and follow Jesus and stop reading these religious shills. I assure you there is a special place in Hell for these people.
Luke 17:2 “It were better for him if the millstone of a donkey were hung on his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he would subvert one of these little ones.”
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Ahh..we have “chosen to believe the lie” of the Blessed Hope and the Day of Christ and the catching away of the saints…?
Hmmmm.
So this is “the strong delusion”?
So not believing the Word as it is written, the king James Bible AV 1611, is a “strong delusion”??
Yours is the spirit of Anti Christ.
And the works of your father…you will do.
Exercise that Deceived Free Will, dutchess!
Jesus is the way the truth and the Life.
Free Will is a Luciferian doctrine, Cooter.
You want to watch where you point that shotgun of yours.
You don’t think so? Show me ‘Free Will’ for man in your trusty King James Bible AV 1611.
Free Will is a Luciferian doctrine
Lucky Lucifer doesn’t exist then isn’t it?
——-
Show me ‘Free Will’ for man in your trusty King James Bible AV 1611.
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
…41And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, 42saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” 43Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him.…
You’re right, D…
Lucifer doesn’t exist.
Yet.
Lucifer did exist and will exist.
And you’ll have to explain to me how any part of the verses you quoted are demonstrative of free will.
‘Not My Will.’
Pretty straightforward, one would think.
No rapture, the forty-two months is the time Yahweh has allotted Satan to come after the apostate churches which is a way of purging them of their false teachings and sins.
Some will find their way and many will not.
I usually cum harder the second time and so will Jesus.
Just remember to wash your hands.
Only Project Blue Beam for you John. That IS the deception you are prepping us for? Right?
Harpazō means taken, captured, pull, pluck. It does not mean rapture, which is an emotion, ecstasy eg, enraptured by the smell of flowers. There is no suggestion that rapture is a literal floating up into the sky high.
Piz;
The Expositor’s Greek Testament says: “We cannot find any passage where [har·paʹzo] or any of its derivatives [including har·pag·monʹ] has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize,’ ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense ‘grasp at’ into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’”—(Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1967), edited by W. Robertson Nicoll, Vol. III, pp. 436, 437.
It does not mean rapture. No such rapture is mentioned or supported AT ALL in the scriptures. What these false religions and their religionists refer to as a rapture, is where, in Revelation, it describes the remnant of the holy spirit annointed 144,000 being taken to heaven, after being transformed into spirit beings (just like angels, God, Jesus) to co-rule for the thousand years, and to fight Armageddon with Jesus. These religions think they are all holy spirit annointed, when nothing could possibly be further from the truth. Religions are NOT approved of by God and in fact oppose Him, and He opposes them. The scriptures do say they’re false and works of the flesh.
//Is It The Rapture Or The Second Coming?//
Neither one nor the other.
http://empathy-way.freeforums.net/
There will be no rapture. The bible doesn’t mention a rapture.
Even if there was one it would have already been stopped by Randy Savage.
OOOOHHH YEAH! DIG IT!
You do a good job of laying out the doctrine of Cyrus Scofield. The only place you will find the word rapture is in the commentary of his bible at the bottom of the page in reference to 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and you’ll have to take that out of context to make your point.
Try reading ALL of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Christ is quoted as saying something quite different than what you are teaching here.Try reading ALL of 1 Thessalonians 4 also, you’ll notice Paul DOES NOT contradict Christ.
You have been misled because you refuse to read 4 chapters of the bible for yourself.
This is the correct verse for you,
Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
(the Things that be of “men”…)
Your words are wrong and in error.You Follow “men” and “commentaries” and “footnotes” and adding to the Word of God and taking away from the Word of God.You read from Satanically corrupted bible “versions”, all “modern bible versions”. You believe what you’re told from other deceived men and Cemetery’s(Seminary’s) and Libel(bible) schools..This is the end result of believing in Satanic “bibles”.
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing (Correctly Separating) the word of truth.
Mathew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
(MANY there be, Most will go this way…)
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
(Few…will receive the Truth, As it Is Written)
If you believe in men, you Will be deceived.This is the world system and the broad way…the spirit of Anti Christ.
If you choose to believe in the truth, from a humble, meek and contrite heart, by the Spirit of truth-the Holy Spirit…this is the narrow way.Through the Word of God-Jesus Christ and the KJB AV 1611.
You must LOVE the Truth to be able to Receive it.
The Choice is yours.
The Rupture sounds painful. The Second Coming sounds GREAT though!!
It happened 101 years ago and you missed it. Jesus is on his throne, and when he fights Armageddon, he will take over rulership of Earth, from heaven, from Satan, it’s current ruler.
There is a mainstream of Protestantism, in which sound doctrine is knowable and has been itemized, by apologists, for millennia.
Remember Rev 2, the church of Thyatira.
At some point, you have to say here is a dedicated space. The discussion covers just one religion and one opinion. You either share the same views, or are something else, entirely, in which case, don’t let the door hit you, on the way out. (Or, better yet, how did you get in here.)
Yes, be a Berean. Know what you believe, why you believe it, even with great certainty and precision. These discussions are natural and healthy among contrite believers, meaning only to edify one another.
No, it’s noone’s moral duty to convince a doubting Thomas or a Philistine. (A non-reporting church or other Christian business should probably have a closed-door policy, buzzing people in, by referral only. Or, how else would this be dealt with, under frank, unabashed Communism.)
If a believer can find John the Baptist, or be fed by ravens, an inspired teacher can meet a willful, intelligent following. They will come of the woodwork and engage you, with God’s purpose.
“For the upright shall dwell in the earth, and the holy shall be LEFT BEHIND in it. The paths of the ungodly shall perish out of the earth, and transgressors shall be driven away from it.”
Proverbs 2:21,22 LXX
Raptors ( not rapture ) shall come to rid the earth of the dark hearts.
always thought rapture was part of a second coming!
The Rapture doctrine was brought about by a mentally ill Scottish women by the name of Margret MacDonald and a huckster by the name of John Darby in the 1830′s. No mention of such an event was spoken of in the dogma and traditions of the Catholic Church or mentioned by the Church fathers including St . Augustine prior to the Reformation. Non of the early Reformers i.e. Luther, Calvin, Wycliffe had ever brought up such a doctrine and Scripture is strangely silent on the subject in fact John 17 speaks of Jesus praying to the Father ” I pray you do NOT take them out of the world but to keep them from evil” A clear conflict with the Rapture cult. The Rapture doctrine was imposed to shear the sheep nothing more, If you are going to be Raptured away then you won’t have need of money or houses or IRA’s , all these you can give to the ministry. Sound familiar, the Pastors of profit have been spreading that word for years to their gullible congregations .
Well if you say so and the the world system says so, then it must be “True”!
Thank you for setting us all straight.
Yea let God be true and EVERYMAN a liar as it is written.
cooter slaphappy,
How about you will you attempt to make Matthew 24: 29 – 31 say there is a rapture?
I have it down at the bottom of this section. It is laid out in an easy to understand fashion.
Please show where Christ included it.
So, this is what the exoterists are saying these days….not much different from the past, particularly, after the Age of Materialism. Of course, esoterists know that the Christ comes ONLY ONCE in a physical body. To borrow the words of the Baptist: Change your thinking! He is pointing at a mode of thinking- that includes SPIRIT -which will enable one to experience the Christ. Paul had this experience.
What was on the outside is now on the inside. Yeah, you must look for the Christ within. Materialistic thinkers will have problems with this. Then, change (i.e. spiritualise) your thinking!
Here is — EVERYONES — chance to prove Christ is going to rapture the Saints, here is Matthew 24 shows us where it is.
Matthew 24: 29 – 31
29 “Immediately – AFTER – the tribulation of those days — shall the sun be darkened,” and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken”
Christ says After the Tribulation which is the 5th Seal comes the 6th Seal which is the heavenly signs.
Next we compare Revelation 6 with Matthew 24: 29 which proves Christ is describing the 6th Seal which follows the Tribulation which is the 5th Seal.
Matt. 24: 29 – –Shall the SUN be darkened.–
Rev. 6: 12 – And I beheld when He had opened the 6th Seal and lo there was a great earthquake and the — SUN BECAME BLACK—– as sackcloth — of hair and the moon became as blood.”
verse 29 and 12 match; The Sun is darkened – black
Matt 24: 29 – The stars shall fall from heaven
Rev 6: 13 – The stars of heaven fell unto the earth.
Here is another match
Matt 24: 29 —- “and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”
Rev 6: 14 – The heaven departed as a scroll and every mountain and island were moved out of place.
This is not an exact match but if the powers of heavens are shaken then the heaven could depart as a scroll.
And in Joel 2: 30, 31 God through Joel confirms that the 6th Seal which is the heavenly signs comes just before the 7th Seal which is —- THE DAY OF THE LORD
Joel 2: 30, 31
30 “And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood and fire and pillars of smoke.”
31 “TheSUN shall be turned into DARKNESS and the MOON INTO BLOOD– –“before” — the great and the terrible DAY OF THE LORD — come.”
Compare this with the description of the 6th Seal in Matthew 24: 29;
Next the sign of the return of Christ.
Matthew 24: 30 “And then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven:” —– “And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with Power and Great Glory.”
Here is the Return of Jesus Christ to earth as King of kings in great power a glory and the earth mourns —-
And THEN:
31 “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET, —- “
Christ sends His angels with the great sound of a Trumpet. Here is where the whole concept of the rapture vanishes; the 5th, 6th, and now the 7th Seal are now complete with the great sounding of the Last Trump and at the end of that last of that 7th and last trumps Christ comes with indescribable Power and Great Glory.
31 continues “— And they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
After the 5th – 6th and 7th Seal is complete THEN Christ sends His angels to collect the Saints.
There is no rapture before, during or after the Day of the Lord.
What Christ is showing is the FIRST RESURRECTION. See Rev 20: 4 – 5
If the Saints rise to met Christ after the 5th then the 6th and last the 7th Seal — what is there to escape ? Christ is now on earth as KING of kings and Lord of lords and all His enemies are dead.
Mike
I posted Matthew 24: 29 – 31 which is the events of the time of the end and the return of Jesus Christ as told by Christ Himself, and guess what —- there is no RAPTURE.
I would love for you to show me where the rapture is included or even where it could possible be included.
Seals 5, 6, and 7 are complete, Christ returns and kills all His enemies and gathers the Saints — and there is no reason to take the Saints to heaven to protect them.
Please take the time to show Christ made a mistake or something
i predict rapture day will come as soon as a million years whos prepared
THIS IS A THOUGHTFUL AND VERY OBJECTIVE STUDY IN FOUR PARTS. ENJOY! LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK. GIVES SOME HISTORY:
I APOLOGIZE FOR MY HARSHNESS. I JUST GET EXASPERATED BECAUSE I FEEL I WAS LIED TO FOR SO MANY YEARS. I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD EVER GET OUT OF HIGHSCHOOL BECAUSE OF THE DOGMATIC WAY THE RAPTURE DOCTRINE WAS JAMMED DOWN MY THROAT. I WAS BORN IN 1947 AND WITH THE BIRTH OF ISRAEL IN 1948 WE KNEW THE RAPTURE WAS ANY DAY WAY BACK THEN!!
I AM 68 AND NOT ANTI CHRIST. I ASSURE YOU I AM NOT THAT SMART.
I FEEL THE WAY IT TAUGHT WAS ABUSIVE AND CAUSED A GREAT DEAL OF FEAR AND OTHER NEGATIVE FRUIT. WE WERE NOT OCCUPYING UNTIL HE COMES WE WERE PREOCCUPIED WITH OURSELVES.
AGAIN, I DO APOLOGIZE. ENJOY THE BLOGS. THEY ARE NEITHER PRO NOR CON.
http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2009/12/pre-tribulation-rapture-and-john-nelson.html
http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2009/12/pre-tribulation-rapture-and-john-nelson_11.html
http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2009/12/pre-tribulation-rapture-and-john-nelson_12.html
http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2009/12/pre-tribulation-rapture-and-john-nelson_14.html
No one will take up my offer? No one will show from Matthew 24 that Christ taught a rapture —
No one will try because it can not be done.
Christ sends the angels to gather the Saints at the end of the Day of the LORD which is the 7th Seal.
There is absolutely no need for a rapture to heaven at that point.
Well, your belief is shared by a lot of people, as are the others you mentioned. However, having spent 45 years very carefully studying and comparing each scripture to each other scripture, and re-translating a huge portion of it from ancient Hebrew, and from Koine, I can tell you with authority, that what all of these religions claim is a rapture, is nothing more than a complete and total misunderstanding of the entire concept of who wrote the scriptures, and to whom they were written. The entire Christian Greek (new testament) scriptures were written ONLY by literally holy spirit annointed Christians. The kind where holy spirit is placed upon them by God, or by Jesus in God’s behalf. The kind of annointing that allowed them to perform miracles, as most of them did. God no longer annoints people in that way, but he does annoint with holy spirit. He does not give them power to perform miracles or speak in foreign tongues, heal, or other things that the original apostles were able to do. Those who are now annointed are still part of the group of 144,000 though. Anyway, these annointed apostles, and prophets, wrote the scriptures addressed to OTHER so annointed Christians. NOT to the general population. When the scriptures speak of “being caught up in the clouds”, it is referring to the REMNANT of the 144,000 existent at the onset of the final battle. They will be transformed and taken into heaven. NO ONE ELSE GOES TO HEAVEN, EVER. We don’t have an immortal soul, as the scriptures VERY CLEARLY TEACH. Being baptized does NOT make one annointed, and laying of hands, speaking in tongues, etc. when it happens now, is being mimicked by demons, causing those participating and witnessing these things, to believe in such things, thereby making them believe things other than what God’s word teaches. It is to deceive us, and it works. So, THERE IS NO RAPTURE, EVER.
Mike savage
you and I agree on almost nothing but in the spirit of friendship I will offer you some advice.
When you write a large paragraph as above, it is very hard to read. If you were to break it up into much smaller sections, like I just did, it is much easier to read.
Here on BIN where there are many folks that have a limited ability to understand even basic scripture, the smaller the line of thought the more likely some one may understand.
Sorry about that. I am not surprised that anyone doesn’t agree with my posts, but what I post is ACCURATELY what the scriptures actually say, and NOT what ANY religion teaches. No religion of man accurately teaches the scriptures. If they did, they would have empty churches, always.
Hi Mike,
Just for info, no need to discuss it, in light of your words.
All of the following and more are still happening daily, and is a normal way of life for many Christians:
Healing, Miracles ( powers ), Holy Spirit languages, prophecy, …………
Sorry you are missing out.
Those things may be happening, but not in the way you think. God said that these things stopped with the last of the apostles death. When they happen now, it’s demons pretending to cause these things. They want you to believe religions, and NOT God the Almighty. What you are doing is one of the most dangerous things, with regards your life, that one can ever do. It means destruction. I am missing out on NOTHING. I think you mean well, but you are so thoroughly deceived that it’s hard to quantify. The scriptures say it all ended, and you say you still do these things. Doesn’t that tell you anything? Especially in light of the fact that “satan is misleading the ENTIRE INHABITED EARTH”.
Wow Mike, when did Godd say those things stopped ?
The apostles death ? Which apostles, for the apostles were commanded to teach other disciples to end up like them, apostles_ones simply sent out to teach ALL that He, Yehoshua had commanded them; which includes Matthew 10 where He Commanded them to raise the dead, cast out demons, heal the sick, cleanse the lepers,……
That command in Matthew 10 Stands !
Appreciate the warnings, but satan doesn’t cast out satan, and a house divided against itself will fall.
The Holy Spirit is still casting out spirits, healing the sick,
raising the dead……It is part of the Good News of His Kingdom which He is pleased to give to His own.
Besides, exalting apostles or those other positions per
this context, as though being an ‘apostle’ negated Mark 16
“these signs shall follow those who believe”, it doesn’t.
The command was given to HOLY SPIRIT annointed apostles of Jesus, not to the general public. They all died and no one has so been annointed since. Claiming it happens to people now does not make it so. The scriptures said that knowledge ended. Knowledge refers to holy spirit inspired knowledge, as in when someone is filled with such spirit from God, or from God through Jesus. No one is filled with God’s spirit when they’re baptized any more. Just does not happen. You’re being lied to by religion. Not surprising, as all religions of man are nothing more than scam artists and liars. They are fulfilling prophecy in doing so.
Yes, the command in Mt 10 was to the anointed apostles, but then in at Mt 28 those same men are commanded to make other disciples, and to teach those new disciples to observe all that Yehoshua had commanded them, so Mt 10.
“The scriptures said that knowledge ended.” Yeah you are speaking of 1 Cor. 13:8 ” shall vanish away”, but 1 Cor. 13 (the entire chapter ) was taken from the “Gospel of Peace of the Essenes” by the author ( ? )___Paul.
And so the reality you speak of about”knowledge vanishing away”, would have to have happened BEFORE Yehoshua even showed up ! For the Essenes were before His advent, of course He being a Nazarene.
Yes pierced, but no further annointing with holy spirit, as the apostles were. No tongues, interpreting, laying of hands (which isn’t scriptural anyway), no resurrecting, no healing, none of it. You are experiencing demons causing those things to happen, so you will reject scriptural teachings, and think that holy spirit is the cause of the things you experience. You’re being deceived, and fight tooth and nail claiming you’re not. Sorry, but you ARE deceived and probably won’t know it until it’s too late.
How sad for you to have rejected the blessed hope.
neo
what is the “blessed” hope? That is for certain a catholic term.
Do you even understand what is the promise is that our Father (not mary as she is dead and in the grave) has give us?
Ps it is not heaven.
Neo;
I have rejected no blessed hope. I know that I will be protected in the final battle and will live forever in a paradise Earth, as governed from heaven, by the Kingdom, whose sitting king is Jesus Christ, God’s only begotten SON.
The purpose of the rapture is the one that God will bring judgment on the evil and thereby saving his Church of the same judgment.
Clear evidence of the righteous judgment of Elohim, in order for you to be counted worthy of the reign of Elohim, you aussi pour qui Suffer, 6 since Elohim `shall repay with affliction Rightly Those Who afflict you, 7 and to give you Who are afflicted rest with us When the Master יהושע is Revealed from heaven with His mighty messengers, 8 in flaming fire Taking revenge on Those Who do not know Elohim, and Those Who we do not obey the Good News of our Master יהושע Messiah, Who `shall be 9 punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Master and from the esteem of His strength, 10 When He comes to be esteemed in His set-apart ones and to be Admired Among All Those Who believe fait que Day, Because our witness to You Was Believed (2Thess 1: 5-10)
2Thess 1: 7-10 reveal when the angels will show, it’s on the day of the Lord, this is the same event that Matthew 24:31
“And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and They Shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
If we continued to read the text of Matthew 24, verse 40, the text confirms the messengers, gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the day of the Lord.
The truth is, the dispensation of grace, the Church age is near the end, to let place for times of the Gentiles.
You know, Hecosch was a type of the rapture of the Church (Genesis 5: 23-24)
23 So all the days of hanok Were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Hanok Walked with Elohim. Then He Was no more, for Elohim Took _him_.
All Christians should heed this warning Apocalypse 22: 18-19
For I witness to everyone hearing the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to ‘em, Elohim _him_ `shall add to the plagues That are written in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy Elohim shall take away His hand from the Book of Life, and out of the set-apart city, qui are written in this Book.
Following this verse of Isaiah you can no longer ignore these verses, you must face them and accept what the Scriptures say:
I have COMMANDED My set-apart ones; I have called Expired aussi My mighty men for My displeasure, My proudly exulting ones. “4 The noise of an uproar in the mountains, like that of Many people! A noise of uproar of the reigns of gentile Gathered together! יהוה of hosts is gathering an army for battle. 5 They are coming from a distant land, from the end of the heavens, Even יהוה and His weapons of displeasure, to destroy all the earth. 6 Howl, for the day of יהוה is near! It comes as a destruction from the Almighty (Isaiah 13: 3-6).
Notice where this army is from, verse 5, They are coming from a distant land, from the end of the heavens.(Those are not angels)
At That Time And your people shall be Delivered, every one who is found written in the book, and 2 Many of Those Who sleep in the dust of the earth wake up, some to everlasting life, and Some to reproaches, everlasting abhorrence. ( Daniel 12: 1-2)
If you notice 1Cor 15: 51-52 Refer to this passege
See, I speak to you a secret: We shall not all sleep, we aim `shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead `shall be raised incorruptible, and we` shall be changed.
And I saw the heaven ouvert, And There Was a white horse. And He Who sat on _him_ Was called Expired Trustworthy and True, and in righteousness He judges and fights. 12 And His Eyes Were as a flame of fire, and on His head Were Many Crowns, HAVING HAD Name that has-been written, qui no one except Himself HAD Perceived 13 HAVING beens and dressed in a robe dipped in blood – and His Name is called Expired: The Word of יהוה 14 And the armies in the heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ., Followed Him on white horses (Apocalypse 19: 11-14)
As you can see, this passage Apocalypse 19: 11-14 refers to the passage Isaiah 13: 3-6)
I think if you are honest with the God scripture and with yourself, you find that the scriptures confirm that there will be a rapture of the church.
shofar,
There is a comment above yours I made regarding Matthew 24 and the prophecies of Christ.
In this very important account of what occurs at the time of the end — THERE IS NO RAPTURE.
Christ take us through the 5th Seal then the 6th Seal and then at the very end of the 7th Seal which is the DAY OF THE LORD then and only then does Christ send the angels to gather the Saints.
Christ returns, gathers the Saints, —-AFTER — all the enemies of Christ are dead and all the Seals including the tribulation are complete.
Do you reject the WORDs of Jesus Christ?
Truthseeker,
It’s nothing against you, but you are wrong, and i do not reject the Word of Jesus Christ, what i reject is your interpretation of the Word of Christ.
Truthseeker, when Matthew 24 as been revealed to is disciple, Jesus he was a human, with limited knowledge, but when John received the Apocalypse, Christ was in all its magnificence, in all its fullness.
The rapture of the Church will take place at the sixth seal, we see the Church has been rapt in revelation chapter 7: 9, the text is very clear on this subject, the text speaks of a great multitude, which no man Could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in Their Hands.
The text confirms this is a multitude of men, they come from nations and tribes with many langage, so this is the church.
“he (Jesus) was a human, with limited knowledge, but when John received the Apocalypse, Christ was in all its magnificence, in all its fullness.”
Where on earth did you get that opinion?
Chapter and verse(s)?
Scanner Darker the reference is Hebrew 2
But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the messengers, יהושע, because of the suffering of death crowned with esteem and respect, that by the favour of Elohim He should taste death for everyone.
In the here we see that Christ is lower thanthe angels, and Matthew 24:36:
But concerning that day and the hour no one knows, not even the messengers of the heavens, but My Father only.
“Scanner Darker the reference is Hebrew 2″
Copy and paste it Shofar. I’m not asking for much.
“But concerning that day and the hour no one knows, not even the messengers of the heavens, but My Father only.”
Did I ask you for this?
Shofar
So I am to understand from you – that the SON of GOD the FATHER, Jesus Christ came to earth and preached falsehoods and gave us what HE thought was true but it really was not?????
I have read how the catholic’s and their daughters make Christ of no effect but I am speechless ??????? You can’t be serious !!!
Have you not read the words of Christ — HE DID THE FATHER’S WILL AND SPOKE AND DID EVERYTHING THE FATHER SHOWED HIM.
YOU ARE A LIAR AND THERE IS NO TRUTH IN YOU!
Jesus is NOT THE FATHER AND IS NOT GOD. Jesus is God’s only begotten SON. Subordinate to the Father. Doing the will of the Father. THERE IS NO TRINITY in heaven. That is a pagan belief, as they all believe in trinities of gods.
Mike Savage: There are no JW’s in heaven, None!!, there are no 144,000 righteous found in the ENTIRE JW organisation, Jehovah is a hybrid name.
Your Jehovah
is Y’shua and He is 
the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY
“Jesus has already “returned”, as he took his throne 101 years ago”
NOWHERE within the inspired word of God can you find such nonsense. It is only found in false religion of the CONgregation of The False Witnesses.
Mr Savage YOU are totally deluded with all your claimed life’s work done on Translations, You’ve WASTED your life by ending up at Bible trashers @ JW.org Who are Antichrist mouthpieces for the Devil himself.
You personally have assisted in putting a millstone around many a child’s neck, Woe !!! to you Mike Savage all you ever found was a CONgregation of the Old Testament Jehovah’s who are wretched in the sight of God as you do NOT worship Y’shua as LORD.
You are NOT a TRUE witness for the NEW TESTAMENT as we have the New name “CHRISTIAN” as we follow… as it is written
The True witnesses are mentioned in Acts THOUSANDS of years ago before your RECENT CONgregation, who have butchered God’s written Word with updates.
Acts 1:8 …
HERE are GODS TRUE WITNESSES, those indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and
YOU SHALL BE MY WITNESSES both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, 
and even to the remotest part of the earth….(Ends of the Earth)
So Fake witness Mike you are a Wretched heretic a foolish expectant, sifting and updating Gods Word, according to your OWN opinions…
Don’t wait any longer, REPENT MIKE and believe Y’shua is the LORD God Almighty or you will Die in your Sins .
CrazyTimes;
You most certainly don’t have any idea what you’re talking about, and all of what you ‘ve posted is a bunch of made up baloney. Can you not ever post anything truthful at all? What’s the problem here? Is the truth that abhorrent to you?
shofar
So Jesus Christ is not the TRUTH and the LIGHT?
Stop and consider what you are asking, I should believe you and not Jesus Christ
YOU are more then a little confused.
There IS NO RAPTURE, and using a title such as Elohim, is STILL not using God’s name, as He commanded us to do. His name is NOT His title. His name is Jehovah.
mike,
then is Christ wrong for teaching us to pray to OUR FATHER?
And please explain how you know how to correctly pronounce that name.
Mike I will follow my elder Brother in all that He taught and as He lived , I will follow neither you nor any man.
After 75 years of living in Satan’s world I know what is in the nature of man, it is desperately wicked — why follow evil?
TruthSeeker who doesn’t really seek the truth;
In the times when the scriptures were written, it was very common to include God’s personal name, in the name of children. Jehoiakim, Jeroboam, Jeremiah, Jesus, and so on. All incorporate part of Jehovah’s name. For the past many hundred years, His name has been pronounced Jehovah as well, by many people all over the world. That’s how.
NOPE. That is wrong. No church or religion of man was EVER created by God or by His son, Jesus. EVER. The word false translations changed to church, is ecclesia. It’s koine Greek for congregation. Jesus created a CONGREGATION, not a church, not a religion invented by man.
There’s not going to be any “rapture,” and the Second Coming of Christ is not imminent. There are too many prophecies in the Bible (such as those pertaining to the coming of the “holy age”) that haven’t yet come true. Every Biblical prophecy must first come true before Christ returns to judge the living and the dead and to bring time to an end. Those events is at least 1,000 years away.
Anyone who listens to holy-roller propagandist Rolls and his likewise daffy-duck contributors will be led astray.
louis,
you are talking about the catholic bible which I totally reject.
For you to be stating Christ coming could be 1000 years away proves you care not for the mass suffering of humanity that is taking place right NOW around this earth.
Jesus Christ told HIS disciples to never stop praying for the return of the government of God, that Government with its KING will come to this earth and END the rule of Satan and his church.
With transh-umanism beginning to happen, if He waits very much
longer who will be left to rapture, or raptor ?
Rapture_if a bro or sis wants rapture, just find a group
of believers who meet together in His name, and they
actually allow the One Shepherd to Lead the time together,
and that is enough…….simple.
Even bro David, Psalms: “In His presence is FULLNESS of JOY, at His right hand are pleasures forevermore.”
THERE IS NO RAPTURE. It is found NOWHERE within the inspired word of God. It is only found in false religion.
Mike even if there was a rapture…..??
He is here now for those who believe.
“For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in the midst of them.”
they.pierced.My.hands.and.My.feet;
YOU POSTED:
Mike even if there was a rapture…..??
He is here now for those who believe.
“For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in the midst of them.”
WHEN IT SAYS WHAT YOU QUOTED ABOVE, IT REFERS TO HOLY SPIRIT ANNOINTED CHRISTIANS ONLY, NOT TO PRETEND CHRISTIANS OF ANY OF CHRISTENDOM WHO PRETEND THAT THEY’RE HOLY SPIRIT ANNOINTED. NO ONE HAS BEEN SO ANNOINTED SINCE THE LAST APOSTLE DIED ON PATMOS. KNOWLEDGE ENDED, AND THAT MEANS THAT HOLY SPIRIT ANNOINTING ENDED. JESUS IS THE HEAD OF THE CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION, NOT THE CHRISTENDOM CONGREGATION. CHRISTENDOM IS FALSE RELIGION. CHRISTIANITY IS NOT A RELIGION OR SECT OF CHRISTENDOM, IT IS THE ONE TRUE FAITH THAT JESUS TAUGHT, AND TAUGHT HIS APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES TO TEACH. YOU ARE MISTAKEN. YOU FORGET THAT THE CHRISTIAN GREEK SCRIPTURES ARE WRITTEN BY HOLY SPIRIT ANNOINTED CHRISTIANS, AND ARE ADDRESSED TO OTHER HOLY SPIRIT ANNOINTED CHRISTIANS. NOT TO SECTS, OR CHRISTENDOM, OR ANY OTHER RELIGION AND IT’S PARTICIPANTS.
Mike, I’m not to familiar with the doctrine you are speaking.
For me, if I wasn’t continually aware of being born of God’s Holy Spirit, and being baptized into His Holy Spirit, i probably wouldn’t spend 1 second with the things of God, unless I just did it out of fear, or making self look good for the world relations.
Jesus has already “returned”, as he took his throne 101 years ago, and will soon fight Armageddon and then begin ruling Earth for the thousand year judgement day.
Is it the rapture or the second coming? Neither it’s your imagination. Gotta love those trick questions.
Mike,
I have been studying Matthew 5: 17
Matthew 5: 17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil”.
Here is what most want it to say according to the Hebrew:
think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets, I am not come to destroy the law -”"UNTIL”"- I have fulfilled it
and then after you have killed the husband and stolen his money THEN you can fornicate with his wife BECAUSE the law will be gone and what you want to do — will now not be a sin.
Do you believe that word “until” is in that statement of Christ??? YOU MUST — if you believe the Law is ended.
Is this what you believe Mike??? Is this the result of ending God’s Eternal Law that you desire — because that IS what comes if there is no LAW. With out LAW It is impossible for there to be sin.
The LAW of God simply gives us the list of what IS SIN. With out the “List” — tell me what sin IS?
I believe God and His inspired word, which says the law covenant ended with the beginning of the New covenant with the holy spirit annointed 144,000.
Mike Savage
I spent my working days using contracts, not an expert but have drawn up thousands of them.
I did a study of both the Old and the New, here’s how they compare:
The parties to both the Old and the New are God, GRANTOR, and the children of Israel, GRANTEE in the New it is the House of Israel and the House of Judah because God had divided the children of Israel into to nations.
First point; the two parties are the same.
Second point; terms of the contract,
If the children of Israel would keep the physical law God would physically bless them and it they did not God would physical punish them. See Leviticus 26: 13 – 39 for punishment and 1 – 12 for blessings.
There was no eternal life nor forgiveness of sin promised by the Old contract.
The only thing that changed were the promises; Hebrews 8; 6 -10
IN the New Covenant the parties are the same but the promises (terms) changed. Now forgiveness of sin through Christ is offered and if one endures until the end Eternal life.
Think of the two contracts as the first is physical and the second is spiritual, Thus;
The first contract was a physical contract for a physical people with a physical law and physical promises.
The New contract is now a spiritual contact for a spiritual people with a spiritual law and spiritual promises.
The Old contract is still in effect as Christ did not complete His 7 years of establishing it but was cut off in the middle i.e. 3 1/2 years.
Under the terms of the Old covenant physical Israel will be punished for their sin – this punishment is the time of the end and comes as The time of Jacob’s Trouble for all Israel and the DAY of the LORD for the gentiles. The day of the Lord is the Wrath of God and is the 7 Trumpet plagues.
Christ did not end the LAW HE add or filled it UP by making the physical Law spiritual as well.
Now if you just lusted after a women in your mind you a have broken the 7th Commandment.
Mike please do not just quickly read this, get on your knees before God the Father and ask Him if this is the Truth.
Now if you just lusted after a women in your mind you a have broken the 7th Commandment
——-
No worries there. As one of the 144,000 Mike, like all of the JWs governors, will be a virgin.
😇 😇😇😇😇😇😇😇😇😇😇
damnel
yes but did those JW’s look at a women and say in their mind WOW would I like to say “hello” to her?
It is not just the physical that is a sin, Christ “filled up” the Law, He completed the Law it is now full.
NOW what one does in ones mind is sin.
The 144,000 do not exist until AFTER the Tribulation,, they come “out of Tribulation”. They are captives held by gentile nations around the world and they are all Israelite’s Not one is a gentile.
If you are a Russian, or Italian, or German etc you can not be one of the 144,000.
DamnEl;
If you’re saying you’re one of the annointed, you’re lying, and if you’re saying I am one, you’re also lying, and the faithful and discreet slave is not a literal virgin, it’s figurative.
TruthSeeker;
NO, wrong again. The first of the 144,000 were the 11 apostles, and all the holy spirit annointed disciples of the Christ. How can you say they haven’t existed yet? That’s just beyond insane to say that.
No, the new covenant is between Jehovah and “spiritual Israel”, which includes all peoples and nations. NOT all people, but people from all nations. It is made between God and holy spirit annointed christians and no one else. No one has been so annointed for close to two thousand years.
It appears no one is up to dis proving the rejection of a rapture in Matthew 24: 29 -31 by Jesus Christ?
In these scriptures Christ clearly outlines every thing – BUT – a rapture because there is not one.
I discounted the fellow that just claimed Christ did not know what He was talking about. The Father left Christ out of the loop so to speak — really???? I think this proves the end is near.
Truthseeker,
Lets liar help you in the search of the truth, as I said a little earlier in Apocalypse 7: 9
the text is very clear on this subject, the text speaks of a great multitude, qui No Man Could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes , with palm branches in Their Hands.
Compare the text Apocalypse 7: 9 and Apocalypse 19:14, we see that these two passages speak of the same group of people, the church.
Truthseeker, do you know what denine the fine linen?
The fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
What we see in chapter 19 of the Apocalypse is Christ and the saints of the new and old testament to take owneship the earth for the millennium takes place on earth.
By the way Truthseeker, can you tell us in revelation 7:9 what the palm branches refer too?
shofar
I see the problem we are in different books, you are using a catholic book of confusion as all confusion originates from Rome.
There is no further reason to continue –I want absolutely nothing to do with any thing catholic.
The problem is simply that you dont understand the end time, the eschatology and the scciptures in generale, you act like a pharisee, but dont worry, when you will spread your false doctrine I will be on your way.
Wow! Truthseeker actually posted something correct: that there is no rapture. I am impressed.
Mike savage
I am not impressed with your dogma that Christ has already returned.
Looking at this world that is maybe a few months away from an economic crash that will cause the death of billions of people, does this mean the one you worship is doing poorly in his kingship?
The scriptures say that Jesus will take his throne 2520 years after the temple’s destruction in 607 b.c.e. Do the math, it’s 1914. When Jesus told the apostles what the signs of his presence will be, he listed them. All have come to pass. All of them. Jesus took his throne and war broke out in heaven, and Satan and his third of the angels lost and were cast down to the “vicinity of the Earth”, and WWI immediately broke out. Then WWII, and so on. Earthquakes, wars, rumors of wars, pestilence, apostacy, love of the greater number growing cold, and on and on. No intelligent sensible person who has STUDIED the scriptures can deny it, if they’re honest. It’s ALL SPELLED OUT. However, YOU seem to have missed it, because you believe the teachings and traditions of men, not of God. You believe religions, not the scriptures. You interpret scripture, when God said that interpretation belongs ONLY to Him.
“The scriptures say that Jesus will take his throne 2520 years after the temple’s destruction in 607 b.c.e.”
And halt. Do not pass go. Do not proceed to lie number two.
You can’t even provide verses from your own translation which support that outrageous claim, Savage. So what math is there to do?
Of course, you could always prove me wrong…
The rapture takes place at Revelation 4.
No, the rapture takes place NOWHERE. There is nothing in Revelation 4 that speaks that speaks of the annointed going to heaven either. The annointed 144,000 being transformed and taken to heaven just before the final battle is what you all mistake for a “rapture”. Those are the teachings of men, not of God, and are of religions not of the scriptures. They are lies. ONLY THE ANNOINTED 144,000 go to heaven. They are to be co-kings and princes and judges with Jesus, to rule over Earth, from heaven, during the period of judgement day. It’s the first thousand years after Armageddon. You probably won’t be there, because you reject the scriptures and God. You believe and teach lies about God and about His word.
OK so you all want to know about the Rapture right… lol
I know when this event will take place… why do you want to know ? do you think you have it in you…
do you think you’ll make the list ? I think not… lol the “Rapture” is for the pure of heart ! “the innocents”
and what I see from this rabble… well, lol I just don’t see it in your future…
The “Rapture” as many like to call it is an event that will take place in the very near future !
and though not actually mentioned in the bible as “The Rapture” it’s description surely is…
it is an “Event” that takes place just before “The Great and terrible day of our Lord” “The Chastisement”
it is a promise from God to rescue the innocent the pure of heart from this place so they need not witness the
Wrath of the one true God ! upon the Evil, vile, wicked lost souls that are running this planet…
lol they think they can ride out the storm hiding in the bunkers they’ve built with the stolen riches of the people of Earth
they have no idea what is coming for them… lol
so… do you really want to know ?
I will tell you… time is short now… you have very little time left to repent… to get right with our God !
there will be two events that will happen before the “Rapture” one is “The Warning” which you have all seen me post about !
The Warning will happen soon ! it will be a celestial event… like two stars colliding !
most of you have the skills enough to seek out the truth of what I am telling you ! lol Google is your friend !
I have given you enough clues in this post alone to figure it out ! let alone all the other clues I have posted along the way !
after “The Warning” (within 12 months) will come “The Miracle” this “Miracle” will be the greatest act of kindness and
mercy our lord Jesus will have preformed to date ! there will be no denying these events have come from God !
and yet there will be those that follow the darkness that will try to deny these facts ! and continue to deny Gods existence
and lead humanity to hell… many will follow them right into the pit ! these are the ones “left behind” !!!
most of you ! lol
ok ok back on track… after “The Warning” and “The Miracle” will be a very short time… (weeks)
this is when the “Rapture” occurs.. most likely a day or even a few hours before “The Chastisement”
this is when the Rapture happens ! so that the pure of heart and the innocent in Gods eyes are taken away so they
wont have to go through the great chastisement of God !
the great and terrible day of our lord ! also known as the Three Days of Darkness !
this has been foretold on numerous occasions !
I’ll post some links for you once again… you don’t have to believe me ! research it out yourselves !
The Warning will happen very soon ! this will be the marker ! after you experience “The Warning” you have about a year…
maybe less… those of use left behind must put our lives our trust our faith in Jesus ! he will save you !
God Bless you all ! put you faith in him ! time is short…
Torch ^i^
http://3daysofdarkness.com/
http://www.heaven-speaks.com/padre_pio.html
http://heaven-speaks.com/WHAT_IS.html
http://heaven-speaks.com/
you’ve been warned…