Have “YOU” eaten the flesh and drank the blood of Jesus Christ? – if -- NOT— then there is NO eternal “life’ in you.
Have “YOU” eaten the flesh and drank the blood of Jesus Christ? – if — NOT— then there is NO eternal “life’ in you.
Do you fully understand what Jesus states in John 6: 53 ??
Just mouthing the words professing Christ is “your Lord” – accepting Jesus “into your heart” or what ever —does not insure salvation –PERIOD!!
MORE IS REQUIRED then mere words from your mouth.
Words not followed by action are just merely words.
John 6
53 Then Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, —— Except —– ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, —— ye have no life in you”.
Do you symbolically eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ — our PASSOVER — once each year on the night of the 14th of Nisan as our Master Jesus Christ set as the example we must follow?
The Spiritual Passover of unleavened bread and wine and not the flesh and blood of a lamb, instituted by Jesus Christ on that night of the 14th of Nisan, will be observed after sundown this coming Sunday night by those that obey and follow the perfect example set by Jesus Christ.
The following night is a full moon which begins the Feast of Unleavened Bread. A full moon — always — occurs on the night of the 15th of Nisan (The night of April 10th this year).
In John 6: 45 -65 Jesus Christ explains why those drawn to HIM – “BY” — the FATHER must eat the unleavened bread and drink the wine that symbolizes His flesh and His blood.
This Paper will encompass and include all that Jesus Christ taught from verse 45 through verse 68 that the reader may come to understand just mouthing words accepting Christ as Savior are nothing, are worthless.
BUT: drinking the wine and eating the unleavened bread on the night of the Spiritual Passover (the night of the 14th of Nisan) IS ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED .
John 6: 45 – 68
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore — that hath heard (wants to listen) , and hath learned (wants to learn) --“of“ the Father, — cometh unto me. (TO learn)
Is Jesus Christ not stating, every man that wants to listen and wants to learn of the Father — cometh unto HIM ? Jesus Christ came to teach us to ask our Father in heaven for all things. It is the Father’s Perfect Way we must walk.
Jesus Christ taught His disciples they are to follow Him AS HE follows the Father and NOT to follow Christ as He blazes a NEW direction – a New WAY!
One of the many purposes Christ came to earth to accomplish: to reveal the Father to those His Father draws to Him. Christ instructed His disciples to worship the Father and HIM only, to pray only to the Father and to follow our Savior, our Passover, as He follows the Father.
Study all of the statements of Christ that contain “Your Father in Heaven” you will find Christ taught His disciples to look to “Your Father in heaven” for all things ; confirming the statements above.
Our Father is greater than Christ and the Father’s first born Son points us as future Spirit sons to our Spirit Father.
How many of this world’s so called Christian churches teach their members to follow “ALL”, “everything” including the example Jesus set and the doctrines He taught and explain what Christ spoke and taught are from the FATHER; which THE FATHER gave to Christ to teach. The Doctrines Christ taught are not ”HIS” “New doctrines”, they do not abolish they make clear the Father’s WAY.
Why did Christ come to reveal the Father— because the Father was NOT the one that is revealed through out the Old Testament.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, — he hath seen the Father.
If no man has seen the Father but Jesus Christ then who did Moses talk with face to face in the Wilderness for 40 years?
The Lord in Old Testament times is Jesus Christ: THE WORD.
John 1 shows Christ created ALL THINGS; everything on earth and in the heavens above was created by and for Jesus Christ. Only Christ has seen and been with the Father in the 3rd heaven and that statement alone makes it impossible that any man could have preceded the resurrected Christ to the Throne of God the Father in heaven.
Jesus Christ IS THE ONLY “FIRST BORN” of God the Father or HE is not our Savior!
No man has ever been to God’s Throne except in vision. God the Father is coming to earth after it has been cleansed by fire, man is not going to heaven.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
If you are not familiar with Isaiah 28: 9 – 13 then this statement by Jesus Christ will snare you. All scripture must be understood together, precept upon precept: line upon line, here a little there a little: for truth to be revealed each scripture must qualify complete and explain all others.
Look at this statement in this light; IF you do believe Christ then you will do what HE commands you to do. Here Jesus Christ clarifies verse 47, “Why call you ME LORD LORD and DO NOT THE THINGS I SAY?” If you claim Christ is LORD and Master but do not obey Him— is HE truly your Lord and Master??
From verse 48 to verse 65 Christ explains more is required beyond just a simple belief, more than a simple stated acceptance of Christ as Savior to obtain the gift of eternal life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
The bread, the manna that came down from heaven foreshadowed that Living Bread which also came down from heaven; that bread of LIFE, Jesus Christ, which we must eat to gain the gift of eternal life.
50 This is “the bread” which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, -— and not die.
If the symbolic bread and wine are not eaten on the night of the 14th of Nisan year by year – there is then —NO ETERNAL LIFE IN YOU — period.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
In verses 50 and 51 Jesus Christ makes very clear —- if you do not eat of His Flesh you will die: without symbolically eating His flesh you can not live for ever – to gain the GIFT of eternal life one of the conditions: the flesh of Jesus Christ must be eaten.
So much for the false doctrine of the immortality of the Soul! And so much for the lie all one must do is “accept Jesus into your heart”.
Christ just stated the doctrine of an immortal soul is a complete lie. If a person is immortal that person can not die, that’s what immortality means, unending life and Christ states if you eat of HIS flesh –then- you will not die as immortality, eternal life comes through and by the “Bread of LIFE”.
These words above and below spoken by our Savior are Spirit and they are TRUTH!
These Words of our Savior cannot be nor have they ever been understood by the carnal physical mind of man. Are you beginning to see why there are 40,000 flavors of confusion falsely called Christianity? Truth is never confusion; Truth is not divided into 40,000 conflicting opposing Ways.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life – in — you.
Why must we eat the flesh and drink the blood of our Savior – and eat and drink we must if we are to gain eternal life?
From a physical human point of view the words Christ spoke are repulsive, but Christ is speaking of the Spiritual and the Spiritual things of God can only be understood by those ‘begotten’ by God’s Spirit — by the Holy Seed of God the Father impregnating those Called begetting them as spiritual fetuses’ waiting to be born again AS Sprit.
Our Savior Jesus Christ came to earth to die as our Passover thus paying our debt of death for transgressing the Holy Law of God. It states in God’s Word clearly and without equivocation that there can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of Blood. Sin requires the shedding of blood. Lev. 17: 11
God’s Word also states we are saved by the blood of our Spiritual Passover, Jesus Christ of Nazareth and NEVER by the physical blood of a lamb.
Are the sins of a man on his outside? Must we be washed by His blood in the same manner as we wash our bodies? NO!
Where does sin come from? Mark 7: 15 clearly shows where sin comes from — from within a man.
We drink Christ blood, symbolized by red wine, and we put it into our bodies and not on our bodies. We must be cleansed of sin from the inside out; SIN is man’s very nature – and sin is within every human ever born.
Sin required – no demands – the shedding of Blood i.e. death, Jesus Christ came to earth to shed HIS righteous blood for mankind and to die in our stead as payment for our sins against the Father.
All sin comes from within a person. Without the blood of Jesus Christ, symbolized by the wine, removing our sins, paying for our sins — we are none of HIS. By taking that HOLY BLOOD into our bodies once each year we are acknowledging and accepting once more the sacrifice of Christ as our payment for our sins.
By drinking the blood represented by wine we are accepting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ thereby demonstrating we are willing to have our sins washed away by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ.
Unless our sins are paid for by the blood of Christ, eternal life is impossible as our sin would demand the penalty of death.
The Blood, as explained by Jesus at the Spiritual Passover, is His blood that must be shed as part of the New Covenant or New contract. Luke 22: 20.
The Old Covenant/contract did not offer forgiveness and to fulfill the promise of our redemption to God offered by the New Covenant Christ had to die by the shedding of His Blood to make forgiveness and thus redemption possible for man.
Without the shedding of blood there is can be no forgiveness or remission of sin. Hebrew 9: 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
The shedding of Blood remove only sin — NOT the HOLY LAW of GOD.
The Law reveals to man what sin “IS” and by shedding of blood — sin is paid for.
When we drink of that cup on Passover we are reaffirming the Covenant, we are renewing our commitment and acceptances of that covenant/contract perfected by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ.
The BODY of Christ, God the Father’s Ecclesia , once a year on the night of the 14th of Nisan renews that Spiritual Covenant.
When we eat the unleavened bread which represents the body i.e. the flesh of Jesus Christ we are willingly accepting our Savior and His father into our very being. Christ promised if we obey, He and His Father will make their abode in us, they do so through The ONE Spirit.
John 14:
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Jesus Christ states very firmly if you LOVE HIM you will “DO”, you will KEEP His Words: mouthing the words ‘ I love Jesus and accept Him’ requires no keeping or doing and if you are honest you can find Christ requires much from those that LOVE Him.
24 He that loveth me “not’ keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
Verse 24 confirms everything Christ taught is from the Father, not some bogus “NEW WAY” as many accept as truth.
The word translated “abode” is #3438 and also means residence (the act or the place) abode or ‘mansion’. This word is used only twice in God’s word. Do you find it interesting it can be translated as ‘mansion’? It is use in John 14; 2 and 23.
Many are of the erroneous belief Christ will give His Saints houses in heaven, mansion? Christ is preparing positions of authority which He will bring from heaven to earth, the Saints will have positions as kings and priest here on earth.
To come to earth as a mortal human Christ stepped out of immortality and into human flesh and blood and when He died for us He cease to exist for 3 days and 3 nights. Christ was dead — He was not an immortal soul: if Christ were immortal then He could not have died for our sins.
Our Father resurrected Christ from death to immortal Spirit life as His first Born Son and thus within Christ is that same immortal Spirit life promised to the Saints i.e. the Body of Christ. When the Father and the Son make their abode in us they are placing in us the Divine SEED/Spirit which begins to impart the Holy Righteous Holy Nature of God.
By placing within us the very SEED of God, that ONE Spirit of the Father, our Father is begetting us as a Spirit fetus waiting to be born again at the first resurrection in the Very Divine Spirit Image of the Father as was HIS SON: Jesus Christ.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Those that observe the spiritual Passover have the down payment on eternal life and AT the LAST DAY – not the 2nd to last or before the tribulation but the Last day when Christ returns at the Last Trump which is the 7th Trumpet of the Day of the LORD they will rise to meet Christ in the air as incorruptible spirit.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live “by’ (#1223 through, on account of) the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by (on account of) me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
On the night of the 14th of Nisan, as the sun began to set ending the 13th of Nisan and as night came, Jesus Christ sat down with His 12 Apostles.
In Luke 22: 15 Christ told His Apostles “With desire I have desired to eat “THIS” Passover (this Passover i.e. My body and My blood) with you before I suffer”. In all the Gospels there is no mention of the eating of a lamb at that so called “last supper”, Jesus Christ was instituting the spiritual Passover with the bread and the wine:
“THIS” Passover which if you eat you will live forever.
Christ would be dead and in the heart of the earth before all Jerusalem sat down to eat the physical Passover lamb when the night of the 15th of Nisan began; the physical Passover never offered eternal life.
“THIS” Passover ! And who is our Passover? I Corthinians 5: 7 “Christ our Passover”. Go back to John 6: 50 in which Christ refers to Himself as “THIS” bread, Jesus Christ in Luke 22: 15 is referring to Himself, Christ desired to eat the symbols of the bread and the wine, His body and blood, with HIS Apostles before He suffered thus offering to them for the first time: eternal life- this was not the eating of the lamb — this is the Spiritual Passover under the New Covenant Christ instituted on the night of the 14th of Nisan.
Passover is not the night of the 15th when the lamb is to be eaten — Passover is the night of the 14th of Nisan, Passover is the shedding of blood.
To the wise of the world all of this is foolishness, to the mighty and the noble it makes no sense, to the Called out ones of God it is Truth and it is LIFE ETERNAL..
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Whistler Blowers, Insiders
god does not read the bible–never has–never will–god did not write the bible either–some primitive dudes in a cave wrote it–the word of men –not god–humans have zero ability to understand god–they are too petty,judgement,hateful to know god–like this notruthseeker–a true piss ant–the bible is for immature infant adults who are insane–it brings comfort to the mentally challenged–very few christians would be able to tell if god or satan was right in front of them–but thank god salvation is for all or hell would already be full,with bible thumpers,christians because of their evil judgemental ways..bible in one hand,colt .45 in the other,ready to kill anybody who disagrees with their massive bullshit..
b4
brilliant observation by a “for sure’ “brilliant” fellow.
I do not like 45′s, 9′s and 223 are my choice. 45′s will not hold enough rounds, I like a mag with 16 rounds or more, my 223 has a drum that hold 100 and I only shoot those that try to shoot me first.
have a nice brilliant day.
Perverted and trained to be cannibals just like the Spirit Cookers.
John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
No and I do not need the imaginary, astrotheology Jesus of the Bible. Spiritualism is of the free. And more of course… much more.
The scriptures were a way of keeping the knowledge of the Stars planets our own Moon.
so canderson you follow demons i.e. spiritualism??
I have a close relative that is into spiritualism big time — it has not at all worked out for her and will not for you either.
1 Cor. 11:20-34, “When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.”
How often were the first century Christians meeting to break the bread and drink the cup? They were doing so every week. They didn’t wait for just the passover.
You come in contact with the blood of Christ through baptism, that is immersion in water for the forgiveness of sins. Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16; Gal. 3:26-28, Eph. 2;13; 1 John 1:7.
Once you are baptized, you have put on Christ, the Messiah, and you are covered by the blood of Christ as long as you walk in His light, and in His footsteps; conforming to Christ. Rom. 8:29; Eph. 5:8.
Now, that you are covered by the blood of Christ, then the Old Testament Type of the Passover, where the angel of death passed over the houses that had the blood of the lamb over the lintels of the doors, so the judgment of death and sin passes over you who are covered by the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Now the passover happens at the time that each one of us passes from this life to the next, as long as we are in Christ. That is the new passover, and it is no longer an annual feast requirement. But, no harm, if you feel you have to, go ahead.
Gina
Please show the scripture that states the Passover was changed to a weekly event either from the old or from the new.
1 Cor. 11 does not show a weekly event. How often are we to do it? once a year on the night of the 14th of Nisan.
Baptism is joining Christ symbolically in His death, burial and resurrection. The old sinful man dies, is buried and then comes up out of the water a new man.
Immersion in water DOES NOT FORGIVE SIN — it is only by the shedding of Blood that sin is for given and ONLY the Blood of Christ can pay the debt for sin.
Gina I agree we are to walk the SAME WALK as Christ and Christ KEPT THE TORAH and all the Holy Feasts of God and of course the 7th Day Sabbath.
Gina Passover is not a Feast day it is not a Holy Feast of God, Passover is the preparation day for the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It is the day the lamb is bled to death and on that day at the 9th hour our Passover was slain for us.
42 It is “a night to be much observed unto the LORD”" for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel
You might also want to reconsider when He came! Because He came for His second appearance as promised to that generation which was judged by Him, the first century A.D.
So, then:
i Cor. 11:26, ” For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.”
Those Corinthians who read this text in the 1st century A.D. saw Him come back in A.D. 70 to take vengeance on those who pierced Him and those who persecuted His church, the saints. Does that mean that we no longer need the communion?
Read more of the first century coming of Christ at my post, or at https://shreddingtheveil.org.
gina
If Christ came back in 70 ad then the lambs would be dwelling with the lions and there would be total peace on earth — there are hundreds of scriptures proving Christ has not returned as King of kings yet.
?? “Communion” is catholic and that body is the church of Satan. Like every thing they touch they perverted Passover into a “communion” and changed it to easter on the day of the sun — I hate all thing catholic.
Gina did you read verse 53 if one does not eat the flesh and drink the blood THERE IS NO LIVE IN THEM — PERIOD. observing the spiritual Passover is not optional and must be done on the day it was established.
You are misreading that prophesy of the lions laying down with the lambs. What do you think 1 Pet 1:20 means when it says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,”
Christ was manifested on earth during the “last times” of the 1st century A.D. So you have to ask yourself what were those the last times of? Hebrews tells us that they were the last days of the Old Covenant. I have detailed much of the scriptures that are time elements of the latter days of the tribes of israel, but you don’t want to read and consider.
You are being too literal. Eating the bread was representative of Christ’s body, and drinking the cup of wine was representative of His blood. The metaphor words of “like” and “as” are the clues and they are all throughout that prophesy of Isa. Chap. 11. It is not a literal text, but a figurative prophetic text of life under the New Covenant of the gospel of Christ.
Suggest you read my post “The Valley of Dry Bones, …” and “The Prophesy of Micah.. No More War?” The Bible never speaks of the end of the world.
In God’s prophesy language, the word “earth” is a metaphor for the nation and land that was under judgment. The word “heaven” was a metaphor for the ruling authority of the nation that God allowed to be in power at a particular time. The “stars of heaven” were the Israelites of old, and the remnant of Israel, the Judeans during the first century A.D.
You must use the definitions of the metaphors found in the Old Testament so that you can recognize them as you see them in the NT.
See posts for “Heaven and Earth Have Passed Away” and Parts II and III of the Signs of Revelation for these coded words.
https://shreddingtheveil.org.
Luke 22:19, “And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.”
1. Cor. 11:25, “After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.”
WE are to remember His sacrifice for us whenever we eat the bread and drink the wine as a memorial to Him.
The metaphors of the lion and the lamb: predator beast living along side domestic animal… those who come to Christ, formerly were of the predator nations, and they learn through Christ to become domesticated… thus lying down with the lambs / sheep.
You must use context of the scriptures to determine
gina
we agree on almost nothing –
Not bad, TS.
But I saw you say the other day you have never changed the mind of anyone here in the BIN.
Not true.
You always give good advice on small-arm firepower!!!
And you get a lot of Bible stuff right TOO!!!
[Happy Passover, ya old timer.]
Also, Gina…
You have that small Damascus thingy to contend with.
Damascus has NEVER been destroyed. It has never been REMOVED from being a city. It has never been utterly laid waste.
Now, you can spin and juke and jive all you like with that.
But you can never change the historical fact that Isaiah 17:1 has not happened yet.
It has not happened yet.
But when it does…
(And are you reading today’s headlines?)
I know it. It seems the entire world is stuck on this Catholic futurist doctrine, and cannot open their eyes. The broad way….
Maybe the futurists aren’t stuck, Gina.
Seems to me there’s an awful lot you have no answer for. Damascus being the least of it.
If we’re nearing the end of the Sixth Day, on a day-for-1000-year timeline per King David and the Apostle Peter, that is shaping up to be one hell of a coincidence. I mean, a 2750 year-old prophecy calls for the obliteration of Damascus as the inauguration to the Time of Great Trouble…
…and that time is approximately NOW. (plus or minus a decade or maybe two) Just as Damascus is caught between two thermonuclear superpowers. For the first time EVER.
That’s not the kind of thing you’ll be dismissing with the waive of your hand, Gina. At least, not if you’re concerned for wisdom.
@ Clintus…
You might want to read some more history about the destruction of Damascus in the 8th century BC, approx. 732 BC under Tilgath-pileser III who took Samaria, the capital city of northern Israel into captivity at the same time. Isa. 17:1 has already been fulfilled.
No it has not, Gina.
When the prophecy says Damascus will be TAKEN AWAY FROM BEING A CITY, you get nowhere with that argument. Your argument is error. Damascus was NEVER taken away from being a city, as evidenced plainly by the fact that it yet exists.
When the Bible says TOTAL DESTRUCTION…
…you can do as you like madam, but you might just want to consider taking the Bible at its word.
I understand this is inconvenient to your beliefs, but all erroneous beliefs insist that the Bible must bend to conform. And that is precisely what I see you doing here, yet again.
God has spoken on the matter and He has spoken with authority.
You might want to at least consider the possibility that you’re wrong. That way you’ll still be able to use prophecy as a roadmap for the days ahead and will not have inflicted total blindness, unnecessarily, upon yourself.
Truthseeker, the concept that I keep trying to point out is that the futurist view of Revelation and the New Testament is a psyop of both the Vatican and the Zionists in their “state” of Israel which they both contrived and manipulated into creation in 1948. They both are working under their desire to make Israel the ruling power of the Middle East, and they cause all of these problems over there. All of the wars, and hatred and murder is the result of the Vatican and the Zionists. They want to make the people believe the Bible says that a 3rd temple has to be rebuilt in Jerusalem so that Christ can come again! The Zionists / rabbis and those imposters that call themselves Jews have rejected Christ as the Messiah because He didn’t do what was expected. He didn’t become King of Israel on earth, and make Israel a world power again like it was under Solomon.
Even the disciples expected it. Acts 1:6, “…Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” They didn’t understand that the Kingdom of Christ is heavenly and spiritual.
So, the Vatican and the Zionists are causing these current events in the Middle East and then point at the Bible and say, “See, the Bible said this would happen.” Only that’s not what the Bible says. They have twisted everything in scripture to support their wish list. And, most people are buying into this psyop.
Israel has co-opted the US gov’t. All of the representatives and the President have sworn to support and uphold the state of Israel, no matter what. So, the US Military is the strong arm of Israel, and what ever Israel wants, Israel gets. And, the American have been brainwashed to believe that God foretold it because the Zionists said so.
Well, the Bible does not say that there will be a 3rd temple built in Jerusalem. The Bible did not say that the nation of Israel would be a world power, and would be saved everlasting.
The Israel that has everlasting salvation are all those who are counted for the seed of Abraham through Christ, the Messiah. That is Israel today, and has been Israel ever since the first century A.D. See God’s Definitions Part I and Part II for the real House of Israel, and House of God. https://shreddingtheveil.org.
‘”…the futurist view of Revelation and the New Testament is a psyop of both the Vatican and the Zionists…”
That is a bogus charge. There are multitudes of people who have come to the realization that MOST of prophecy, including MOST Old Testament Prophecy, treats of the days yet to come.
You rob Scripture of its power when you look at it as a relic of the past, Gina.
Isa. 17:1, “The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.”
It said it would be a ruinous heap. And, it was after the destruction under Tilgath-pilser III. Historians have recorded this. The Bible did not say it would never be rebuilt.
Many false prophets have come and gone who have tried to use Revelation as a future road map with multiple dates for the “end of the world.” They all lied. And, they only succeeded in making many people doubt the word of God. They reason that if Christ said He would return “soon” and He has not yet done so, then He lied.
The futurist view makes Christ appear to be a liar. It is wrong.
The latter days were always the last days of the tribes of Israel. Gen. 49:1-10. Jacob / Israel used the term “latter days” in speaking of what would occur with each of his sons in “their latter days”. That is how the Old Testament always used “latter days” and “last days”. It always referred to the end of that nation of Israel, and the end of the tribes of Israel under the old Mosaic covenant. It never discussed the end of the world.
Christ promised those people of the first century A.D. that He would return to them soon. He promised them that He would appear to them a 2nd time. He told them that all things would be fulfilled in that generation. He told them that all the blood of Able to Zacharias would fall upon that generation. To take His words out of the first century A.D. and move them 2,000 years into the future is denying Him.
You might try actually reading what I have pointed out from the scriptures.
“…taken away from being a city AND it shall be a ruinous heap.”
You either believe that, or you don’t.
“…after the destruction under Tilgath-pilser III.”
Tiglath-pileser III captured Damascus and killed its king. He did not lay waste to Damascus. He did not render it a ruinous heap. If you feel you can demonstrate otherwise, I will be happy to examine your sources.
“Many false prophets have come and gone who have tried to use Revelation as a future road map with multiple dates for the “end of the world.” They all lied.”
That is correct. And utterly irrelevant to our conversation. I don’t care what ignorant men have to say about the Scriptures, no matter how many of them there may be. I care only what Scripture has to say about itself. There were SIX DAYS until God’s rest in the opening sequence of Genesis. King David and the Apostle Peter make it plain that we should mark time according to 1000 years = a day, when considering these things. Whatever do you do with that? All you can do with it is ignore it or deny the painfully obvious meaning implied in the construct – which Peter even highlights the importance of and adjures us not to be ignorant.
Then we consider the fact that the Bible makes it possible for us to calculate accurately the time from Adam until now. That leaves us nearing the end of the Sixth Day – leading into the Seventh Day, which will be the period of God’s Rest. You can deny that fact all you like, but you will get nowhere with people who actually know a thing or two about the Word of God and how to understand it. I have no need to explain away plainly-written verses the way you must. I have no need to explain away details such as the fact it is written Messiah must return early and cut those days short – for if not there should be NO FLESH left alive. I have no need to explain away what Revelation clearly describes as a series of GLOBAL phenomena which devastate the planet and its inhabitants. These things haven’t happened yet, Gina. And any suggestion to the contrary is an exercise in futility.
“They reason that if Christ said He would return “soon” and He has not yet done so, then He lied.”
Again – who cares how men reason? Not I. God tells us how He marks time, if we but pay attention to His words.
“The futurist view makes Christ appear to be a liar. It is wrong.”
You take your place among the confused, when there is no need for you to do so.
“The latter days were always the last days of the tribes of Israel.”
You know from our previous conversations that prophecy has an imperfect past and a future perfect fulfillment. The LORD speaks once, yea twice, yet men perceive it not.
“Christ promised those people of the first century A.D. that He would return to them soon.”
You continue to insist upon His meaning without seeking recourse to HIS definitions? Why?
“He told them that all things would be fulfilled in that generation.”
That is NOT what He said. He says things in a very specific way for very specific reasons. If we then come along after Him and alter His words, we will not meet with a happy ending. Where is John? Where is the apostle Christ said would tarry until He returned? Why had the other apostles concluded that Christ meant John would not die? THIS GENERATION shall not pass away…
…as indeed it has not.
Take Scripture at its word, Gina.
“To take His words out of the first century A.D. and move them 2,000 years into the future is denying Him.”
And to say as much is to bear witness to a profound misunderstanding of Scripture, rooted in a failure to take Scripture at its word.
“You might try actually reading what I have pointed out from the scriptures.”
I have read you work, Gina. You have constructed your façade atop an insufficient foundation. Your work will not abide because it is not wrought upon the foundation of Truth.
Gina I concur with Cintus except your foundation is built on deep sand and not rock..
Gina
You are confusing the House of Israel with the House of Judah. Yes all the nations of the world have been blessed by the most powerful nations the world has ever seen.
Who in the last 6000 years has been greater and done more for the people of the world then the British Common Wealth of nations and America??
America is Manasseh and Britain is Ephraim God’s first born and at the return of Christ He will reunite the divide houses into ONE and they will be given the Promised Land in perpetuity as promised to Abraham.
Genesis 48: 19
19 ”And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he (Manasseh) also shall become “A” people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother (Ephraim) shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.”
5 “Look towards heaven and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them and He said unto him, — so shall thy seed be “,
Genesis 28: 14
14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Gina when have these unconditional promises ever been fulfilled by the tiny number of Jews But they have been by the 10 tribes of the House of Israel.
If the promises God gave to Abraham which ARE UNCONDITIONAL are not fulfilled then how are we to trust any promise of God.
And Gina which Nation has had a king sitting on the Throne of David since the time of the last King of Judah?? Only England has a monarch and a throne that has continually existed for over 2500 years.
And the Throne of David must exist to day with a seed of David sitting on it for Christ to return and rule from THAT Throne of His father David for EVER!
Gina I know you will never see nor agree but I have known this for over 49 years.
communion for salvation is a doctrine that is as flawed as baptism for salvation….both ordinances teach spiritual lessons since they are the outward and visible signs of inward works (plural emphasized) of grace….the inward works of grace are essential to salvation. Getting wet in a baptistry tank while a preacher mutters a ritual formula doesn’t make you a christian any more than taking a car through a car wash and getting it wet makes it a christian.
If you go under the Jewish Law to perform their passover meal rituals, you have fallen from grace and are severed from Christ…You are now accountable to perform the whole Law. Nobody can come up to that standard. You need to find a church given to sound doctrine that teaches a really good Galatians bible study…Go to that study and learn about grace and salvation by grace through faith alone. Have you heard of it before?
CANNIBAL CHRISTIANS. yes i have a problem with pizza gate, this christian practice is ritualist cannibalism……did you hear me……..ritualistic cannibalism. same pagan demonic mindset as the elites, like a wolf in sheep clothing.
Well, I identify myself as a believer in Christ, yet I haven’t eaten anyone yet. Please keep me posted in case of certain developments. I don’t want to “turn” in the night and end up eating my loved ones.
Please keep me posted. The future of my family is at stake. If you know a cure for this “Christianity” please let me know before it’s too late.
Sarcasm aside, you’re confusing Christianity with some other crazy sh*t.
Gina is the only commentor on here with a clue. The rest of you live in a fairytale world, and make things up as you go along.
LOL
destined
I will encourage you once more, take even a small section of this paper and using logic, common sense and scripture proof it wrong.
BY now folks know you will never attempt to prove any thing as nothing you teach can be verified by the actual Word of GOD.
All you teach and espouse are twisted scriptures, twisted to conform to the satanic doctrines Satan has deceived you into believing.
The Body and Blood of Christ can only be received from the Catholic Mass.
I guess we all better convert to Catholicism then.
Trent said so.
trent
Jesus is never a catholic and not a catholic priest and HE gave to HIS Disciples the symbols of His Body and His Blood and it was not a “catholic mass” is was the Spiritual Passover that is to be observed once a year on the night of the 14th of Nisan. The 14th of Nisan is the preparation day and the PASSOVER — So much for catholic mess.
Trent reread Hebrews again THE ONLY PART OF THE OLD COVENANT THAT WAS CHANGED IS THE PROMISES THUS the LAW remains an essential part and the reason the contract had to be changed was humans can not obey the HOLY LAW of God –Israel could never obey and needed the Spirit of God, HIS HOLY SEED, dwelling in them changing, converting their carnal human nature over to the Holy Righteous Divine nature of the Father and that nature is righteous i.e. lawful.
Trent the TORAH is the mind of God the Father it is HIS Divine Nature as revealed to man and your demonic church demands that HOLY NATURE be abolished and replace with the same perverted nature of your priests you know the ones that pray on little boys.
Colossians 2:16-17 “Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.”
Trent the Holy Feasts of GOD and the sabbath ARE shadows of major events that are to come NOT XMAS NOT EASTER NOT LINT ETC I.E. all catholic days they invented.
And Paul states do not let anyone BUT the body of Christ judge how they are to be observed.
Trent I would let my body be burn on the stake by your satanic church before I would ever bend a knee to any thing catholic — burning on the stake is a catholic thing is it not?
Trent Jesus Chriat is the head of the church appoint by the Father.
18 And he is the head of the body, — the church –who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Trent there is not one mention of the position of a pope in the old or new testament and not one mention of a reward —a reward as Christ gave to the 12 apostles.
Trent one day very soon your church and your pope will become the religion of the entire world and the world will worship as directed by your pope — and then Christ returns and cast your pope into the lake of fire.
trent
I fully understand you can not answer these questions regarding the catholic church.
trent
Can you explain why the Father would move “His” Church from the HOLY eternal city of Jerusalem to the pagan cesspool called Rome??
Move the Body of Christ From the City Jesus Christ is to return to = to the center of paganism ?
I have been to Rome and to the pagan Roman church filled with idols and teeth and bones etc.
If that is of God — I PASS, I will not have one thing to do with that church.
The Old Covenant, that includes the passover, is over.
Hebrews 8:6-13 “But now he hath obtained a better ministry, by how much also he is a mediator of a better testament, which is established on better promises. FOR IF THAT FORMER HAD BEEN FAULTLESS, THERE SHOULD NOT INDEED A PLACE HAVE BEEN SOUGHT FOR A SECOND. For finding fault with them, he saith: Behold, the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect unto the house of Israel, and unto the house of Juda, a new testament: NOT ACCORDING TO THE TESTAMENT WHICH I MADE TO THEIR FATHERS, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt: because they continued not in my testament: and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind, and in their heart will I write them: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least to the greatest of them: Because I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more. Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old, is near its end.”
Mark 15:38 “And the veil of the temple was rent in two, from the top to the bottom.”
Colossians 2:16-17 “Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.”
Israel of the New Covenant/Testament is the only Church Christ established, the Catholic Church. And His Church is the only place one can receive His Body and Blood.
“…the Catholic Church. And His Church is the only place…”
You can say it 150 million times more, Trent.
And it still won’t be true.
You can deny it 150 million more times. It doesn’t make it false.
Catholic Sacraments are in the Bible, Bishops are mentioned in the Bible, the Mass is in the Bible, Apostolic Tradition is in the Bible, Catholic teaching is in the Bible, and St. Peter being made head of the Church is in the Bible. And He has a clear line of successors.
*visible head of the Church
the head must be visible at all times
So is liturgy within the deposit of the faith?
Protestant theology comes from Sola Scriptura
Catholic theology comes from liturgy
I tried to upvote that comment Damien, but the system won’t let me for some reason.
Catholic theology comes from Scripture and Apostolic Tradition. Liturgy supports Catholic belief.
Trent wrote:
“Catholic Sacraments are in the Bible…”
Show me confirmation and reconciliation in the Bible. And then show me where it says, anywhere in the Bible, anything about these sacraments (so-called) being the all-central and indispensable aspects of faith Rome says they are.
“…the Mass is in the Bible…”
Preposterous. The Lord’s Supper was a meal shared between Christ and His disciples on the eve prior to the Passover. There is nothing of any mass in that depiction – and remember, for real answers we look back at the mass in its original form in the third century. Don’t even try it, Trent. Your mass evolved over time to resemble what it is today.
“Apostolic Tradition is in the Bible…”
Bollox. Just because Paul mentioned traditions handed down does NOT reflect anything like the Catholic teaching of apostolic tradition. You have to read an entire library into the Scriptures to even support such a contention.
“Catholic teaching is in the Bible…”
You mean like papal infallibility? Like the ascension of Mary? Like the immaculate conception? Like the repetitious prayers? Like plenary indulgences? Like purgatory? Like the obsession with trinkets, medallions, statues and monstrances (read idols)? Like the obsession with bones and dead body parts and other “holy relics”? Like putting a church building smack-dab in the middle of a grave yard? Do you mean like the entire concept of monarchical hierarchy taught by Rome? These things are in the Bible? Really? [Actually, some of them are in the Bible, but those which are God always says DO NOT DO this thing. But that’s okay, right? A man in crimson and purple said otherwise and he surely knows better than God.]
“St. Peter being made head of the Church is in the Bible.”
Not unless you mangle the plainly-worded text, he isn’t. Notice at the meeting in Jerusalem how James really acted like Peter was in charge? Neither did I. Despite the fact that acts 15 took place after Messiah had ascended.
“And He has a clear line of successors.”
Trent, I DARE you to try proving that to yourself. I dare you. And if you ever do muster the motivation and the chutzpah to actually look into that very topic, you will do well to examine ALL sources related to the matter, not just Catholic sources. Purely historical sources destroy the Catholic lie of succession.
“Show me confirmation and reconciliation in the Bible.”
confession – John 20:22-23 “When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”
Confirmation – Acts 19:6 “And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.”
“then show me where it says, anywhere in the Bible, anything about these sacraments (so-called) being the all-central and indispensable aspects of faith Rome says they are.”
Confirmation is not necessary for salvation. However, Confession is. Confession removes the sin from the soul. Sin sends a soul to hell. I trust that I don’t have to post quotes for this. You do understand that fact, right?
“Preposterous.”
Acts 2:42“And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of the bread, and in prayers.”
Communication of the Bread and prayers is exactly the Mass. Prayers have changed in the Mass, but the belief remains the same.
“Bollox. Just because Paul mentioned traditions handed down does NOT reflect anything like the Catholic teaching of apostolic tradition. You have to read an entire library into the Scriptures to even support such a contention.”
St. Paul says to keep their Traditions. Traditions that protestants reject and wage war against. You all reject the truth of Scripture, simple fact.
“You mean like papal infallibility?…”
Papal infallibility is Apostolic Tradition, the Assumption (not Ascension. She did not raise Herself to Heaven.) of Mary is Apostolic Tradition, Immaculate Conception is Apostolic Tradition, Repetitious prayer is in the Bible (In Matthew 26:41 Christ says to pray that you don’t enter into temptation. Temptation is a constant concern and requires frequent prayer. James 5:16 St. James talks about continual prayer. 1 Thessalonians 5:17 St. Paul says to pray without ceasing.) indulgences are penances. Penance is in the Bible. Purgatory is Apostolic Tradition, but Christ does make a small reference to it: Luke 12: 59 “I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the very last mite.“ Idols are false gods. God does want us to have reminders of Him. Such things are not forbidden. He commanded the Isrealites to make a brazen serpent and there where Angel figures on the Arc of the Covenant.
Baltimore Catechism: 215. Why do we honor the saints in heaven?
We honor the saints in heaven because they practiced great virtue when they were on earth, and because in honoring those who are the chosen friends of God we honor God Himself.
There is a Hierarchy. Bishops and Priests are in the Bible.
“Not unless you mangle the plainly-worded text..”
John: 15-17 “When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: feed my lambs. He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: feed my lambs. He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: feed my sheep.”
No mangling. Christ gave the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to St. Peter and told St. Peter to feed His lambs and sheep. He did not give the keys to the other Apostles, nor did He tell the others to feed His flock. St. Peter, and His successors, feed (or are suppose to) Christ’s flock with the truth of Scripture and Apostolic Tradition.
What about St. James? He quotes a prophet, so what?
List of Popes: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
A lot of the Popes are Sainted. There is a long process to Canonize someone and it is not taken lightly. To say they didn’t exist is foolishness.
“…confession – John 20:22-23…”
I must be missing the portion in my Bible where Jesus told the apostles to ordain priests and that anything He had to say in this passage in any way translates to those priests. Perhaps you can guide me to the correct verse.
“…Confirmation – Acts 19:6…”
And then Paul smacked the newly confirmed in the face, after the confirmed was led through a litany of prayers and recitations, which do not appear in this passage nor elsewhere in the Bible. And Trent… when was the last time any Catholic spoke in tongues or prophesied?
“Confirmation is not necessary for salvation. However, Confession is. Confession removes the sin from the soul. Sin sends a soul to hell. I trust that I don’t have to post quotes for this. You do understand that fact, right?”
Yes, Trent. I do want you to post verses from Scripture stating that confession is a sacrament without which there can be no salvation. That is precisely what I would like for you to do.
First you said: “…Apostolic Tradition…”
Now you quote a verse from Scripture which says: “…the doctrine of the apostles…”
Am I missing something here? Or are you playing fast-and-loose with language in an effort to support contentions which cannot be supported with Scripture.
“Prayers have changed in the Mass, but the belief remains the same.”
Do you mean to tell me the Catholic DOGMA (De fide, thus making it an essential part of Catholic faith) of transubstantiation has remained the same since the beginning? That doctrine wasn’t confirmed as dogma until 1551 at your namesake council. Did you know that? Now, if something as essential as this wasn’t even agreed upon until the sixteenth century, then it should compel you as a Catholic to uncover the reasons for why that is. The question you need to answer is THIS:
Did the early church believe that the bread and wine were actually and literally transformed into the physical body and blood of Christ?
On that very subject
Tertullian wrote:
“Having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, Jesus made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is My body,’ that is, the symbol of My body. There could not have been a symbol, however, unless there was first a true body. An empty thing or phantom is incapable of a symbol. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new covenant to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body that is not a body of flesh” (Against Marcion, 4.40).
Justin Martyr spoke of:
“the bread which our Christ gave us to offer in remembrance of the Body which He assumed for the sake of those who believe in Him, for whom He also suffered, and also to the cup which He taught us to offer in the Eucharist, in commemoration of His blood “(Dialogue with Trypho, 70).
Clement of Alexandria explained that:
“The Scripture, accordingly, has named wine the symbol of the sacred blood” (The Instructor, 2.2).
[I can post similar quotations from Origen, Cyprian, Eusebius of Caesarea, Athanasius and Augustine which all make it painfully clear that the body and blood were to be understood symbolically; that is, NONE of these early church fathers had any knowledge of the dogma of transubstantiation ratified at the Council of Trent. The dogma of transubstantiation is a LATE innovation of Rome. As such, it bears no true connection with the Word of God and it never did.]
“St. Paul says to keep their Traditions. Traditions that protestants reject and wage war against.”
The burden of proof is yours. No one is interested in Catholic assertions – which are all so easily shot through with a bit of diligent digging into the historical archives and examination of the writings of the early fathers. You claim to know what Paul meant by tradition, but you cannot prove your claims so you charge Christians with denying the Word. But your charge is as hollow as your claim.
“You all reject the truth of Scripture, simple fact.”
Simple facts are simple to prove. So? Where is your proof? Hyperbole and rhetoric do not carry conversations such as this one, Trent.
“Papal infallibility is Apostolic Tradition…”
Yes. And it is Catholic teaching. You said Catholic teaching was in the Bible. Show me papal infallibility in Scripture.
“…the Assumption (not Ascension. She did not raise Herself to Heaven.) of Mary is Apostolic Tradition…”
Ah. A cover term for ‘not in the Bible’. I get it.
“Repetitious prayer is in the Bible (In Matthew 26:41 Christ says to pray that you don’t enter into temptation. Temptation is a constant concern and requires frequent prayer.”
Please. Occasionally saying the same or a similar prayer is NOT what is in question here. Repetitious chanting (as in with the rosary) is expressly and specifically castigated in the Bible, as well you know.
“James 5:16 St. James talks about continual prayer.”
Please stop pretending you don’t understand what we’re talking about here. You’re pretending to be daft Trent, and it is unbecoming of someone as intelligent as you are.
“…indulgences are penances. Penance is in the Bible.”
Again – your reach exceeds your grasp. You know as well as I do the heinous notion of PAYING your way out of sins with money is a grotesque distortion of anything found in the Word of God. Don’t even waste your time trying to defend that disaster.
“…Christ does make a small reference to it (purgatory): Luke 12:59 “I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the very last mite.”…”
Please, Trent. Christ was very clearly talking to the people about PRISON in that verse. Let’s try to be honest about this, shall we?
Luke 12:57-58
And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in PRISON.
PRISON = φυλακήν
This is nothing to do with the non-biblical doctrine of purgatory.
“He commanded the Isrealites to make a brazen serpent…”
That was a shadow of what, exactly? And you will use this to defend medallions and scapulars and relics and… oh, nevermind.
“Christ gave the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to St. Peter and told St. Peter to feed His lambs and sheep.”
And thus, He declared Peter pope of the Roman Catholic Church. [Well now. Does that make any sense in light of historiographic information showing almost everything Rome has to say about anything is patently untrue?]
“He did not give the keys to the other Apostles, nor did He tell the others to feed His flock.”
He didn’t give them to Peter either, Trent. Here’s your problem: You keep saying He GAVE the keys to Peter. What does Scripture say?
Matthew 16:19
I WILL GIVE you the keys of the kingdom of heaven…
That is, δώσω (I WILL give) – Verb. FUTURE Active Indicative
What more can we say? You and Rome need it to be past tense to defend your doctrine. But again, the burden is yours, since what you and Rome say is not what Scripture says.
“…List of Popes…”
Please, Trent. See whether you can confirm any of that nonsense with non-Catholic sources. If it’s true, then it’s supportable with the historical record. I know what Rome has to say. That’s ONE witness. And Scripture commands us to CONFIRM EVERYTHING in the mouth of two or three witnesses. So? I’ll see your second or third witness. Any time, friend. [And since we’re only talking about the first three centuries Anno Domini, that really isn’t a difficult task. Gather some historical information about the popes from centuries one, two and three. That’s all. And I wish you luck. And even if you don’t do it for the purposes of this conversation, you should do it FOR YOURSELF all the same.]
I don’t envy your position, CTrent33, in the face of such thorough refutation.
Prison is kinda like “purgatory” and “will give” is close enough to “did give”! Seriously, Trent, can you not see how weak your arguments are?
Swallow your pride, man, and look to the Father ofus who [is] in the heavens. Not the guy in Rome who thinks Matthew 23:9 doesn’t apply to him.
trent
Why did Christ say He will give His 12 apostles, not just one, the keys to the kingdom?
Because Christ commissioned them to make disciples and those disciples are to be taught about the kingdom of heaven, the Good News of the coming Kingdom of Heaven and the Apostles must then open that door for all the Father calls and by the way there is only ONE door not 40,000 and it ain’t the “universal” one.
That WAY of Christ is not universal it is narrow and very straight and few find it.
trent do you know what the keys are??
Repent, be baptized and by the laying on of hands receive the Spirit of the Father.
With out these three you can not even get to the door.
and the 12 Apostles were the ones in the beginning that laid hands giving that Holy Spirit so if they refused as they did with Simon entry was denied by the Apostles — all of them has that right. The Apostles had the Keys to the door of the Kingdom, not just Peter.
Cintus Supremus,
‘I must be missing the portion in my Bible where Jesus told the apostles to ordain priests and that anything He had to say in this passage in any way translates to those priests. Perhaps you can guide me to the correct verse.”
You must have…
1 Timothy 4:14 ” Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.”
1 Timothy 3:1-5 “A faithful saying: if a man desire the OFFICE OF A BISHOP, he desireth a good work. It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity. But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?”
1Timothy 5:17 ” Let the priests that rule well, be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine:”
“And then Paul smacked the newly confirmed in the face..”
Cannot refute the quote so why not makes jokes about it, huh? I can assure you God is not laughing. The fact remains that St. Paul had to lay hands on the people for the Holy Ghost to come upon them. Like it or not, that is exactly Confirmation. Show me where this happens in protestantism.
“when was the last time any Catholic spoke in tongues or prophesied?”
Everybody is given different gifts. One is the strength to refute and correct error. Such as I am doing now.
“..confession is a sacrament without which there can be no salvation.”
Christ gave the power to the Apostles to forgive or RETAIN a persons sins. This is a totally useless act according to protestants, because you believe you can “go directly to Jesus” to say you’re “sorry.” Saying Jesus did useless things is a blasphemy.
Romans 6:23 “FOR THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH. But the grace of God, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
John 8:34 “Jesus answered them, Amen amen I say unto you: that whosoever commiteth sin is a servant of sin.”
“Now you quote a verse from Scripture which says: “…the doctrine of the apostles…””
Doctrine of the Apostles is Apostolic Tradition.
“Do you mean to tell me the Catholic DOGMA (De fide, thus making it an essential part of Catholic faith) of transubstantiation has remained the same since the beginning?…”
Yes,
St. Ignatius of Antioch:
“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”
-”Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.
“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”
“Letter to the Smyrnaeans”, paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.
Justin Martyr:
“This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.”
“First Apology”, Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.
St. Irenaeus of Lyons
[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies.”
Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:
I can post more similar quotes as well. Your problem is that, as with the Bible, you either got false quotes or just do not comprehend them.
“The burden of proof is yours.”
1 Thessalonians 2:14 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and HOLD THE TRADITIONS which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.”
Point proven. Tell me, as a protestant, what Apostolic Tradition, PASSED DOWN BY WORD(meaning outside of Scripture), do you hold?
“Where is your proof?”
What are you talking about? One of the many points of Scripture protestants reject is the command to hold to Tradition.
“You said Catholic teaching was in the Bible.”
Cathokic teaching is in the Bible but it is not solely there. Once again, there is Apostolic Tradition. And F.Y.I. a Pope is not infallible in everything he say or does.
‘Repetitious chanting (as in with the rosary) is expressly and specifically castigated in the Bible..”
No it’s not. Vain prayer is. The Rosary is not prayer said in vain.
“Again – your reach exceeds your grasp.”
Actually, i mess up on that one. one does penance to gain indulgence. Indugences are merit and one must merit Heavenly Treasure.
Matthew 6:20 “But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven: where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through, nor steal.
Indulgences do not remove sin. If you die in mortal sin, you go to hell. PERIOD. Indulgences ONLY lessen time in purgatory. And they can be gained by prayer or good deeds. Money is not a necessity.
‘Please, Trent. Christ was very clearly talking to the people about PRISON in that verse..”
Every parable Christ said has a spiritually meaning. The Judge is God, the officer an Angel and prison is purgatory. And the prison cant be hell, because hell is for eternity.
“That was a shadow of what, exactly?”
“”A brazen serpent”: This was a figure of Christ crucified, and of the efficacy of a lively faith in him, against the bites of the hellish serpent. John 3. 14.” – Douay Rheims Bible.
‘And thus, He declared Peter pope of the Roman Catholic Church.”
Yep.
‘I WILL GIVE you the keys of the kingdom of heaven…
That is, δώσω (I WILL give) – Verb. FUTURE Active Indicative”
Future when he said it. About 2000 years in the past now. It is totally absurd to believe that everything in the Bible, where someone says “I will”,(or the like) has not happened yet.
“See whether you can confirm any of that nonsense with non-Catholic sources. If it’s true, then it’s supportable with the historical record.”
First of all, I know it’s true. You wanted to know, you look it up. And secondly, why should I trust any source from the satanic world? Satan is the father of lies. Since day one he has been attacking the Church. Fill my head with centuries of garbage? No thanks. Garbage filled heads (and hearts) are the reason the world is corrupt & collapsing.
Trent,
First let me say that I admire your tenacity. I also do not doubt your sincerity in your faith and I believe you are a steadfast seeker after the Way. It is clear that you devote diligence and effort to the search and that you know the Scriptures better than most.
Now back to work. You quoted me:
“I must be missing the portion in my Bible where Jesus told the apostles to ordain priests and that anything He had to say in this passage in any way translates to those priests. Perhaps you can guide me to the correct verse.”
And then you quoted 1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.
Nothing doing, friend. For the important points like this, you always have to check in on the original languages to see whether what you’ve been taught by men even exists in the Word. So the Greek has it:
[…laying on of the hands of the elderhood…]
…ἐπιθέσεως τῶν χειρῶν τοῦ πρεσβυτερίου…
elderhood = πρεσβυτερίου – Genitive Neuter Singular of πρεσβυτέριον (presbuterion), or an assembly of elders, the Sanhedrin, officers of the church assembly, presbytery.
NOTE: The New Testament Greek word for priest is ἱερεύς (yereus) – see Matthew 8:4, 26:3, 26:56, 26:62… etc. etc.
Next you quoted 1 Timothy 3:1 ff
A faithful saying: if a man desire the OFFICE OF A BISHOP…
BISHOP = ἐπισκοπῆς (episkopase) – Genitive Feminine Singular of ἐπισκοπή (episcopae), or OVERSEER. There is nothing in the term which denotes the Roman understanding of ‘bishop’ as Rome claims to preserve that office. ‘Bishop’ can be a legitimate translation of the term, but again, to insist upon the Roman understanding is to insist on an inaccurate understanding. Priests and bishops, as Rome understands the offices, are nowhere to be found in the New Testament.
“Cannot refute the quote (on confirmation) so why not makes jokes about it, huh?”
I’m not mocking you, Trent. I take you seriously. If I inject levity into my dialogue, it isn’t intended to antagonize you or insult you. But the fact remains, Scripture most definitely refutes the claim that Rome’s understanding of priests and bishops is to be found anywhere within the New Testament.
“The fact remains that St. Paul had to lay hands on the people for the Holy Ghost to come upon them. Like it or not, that is exactly Confirmation.”
You have very little to support that claim. Laying of hands is biblical, but Rome’s notion of confirmation isn’t.
“Show me where this happens in protestantism.”
Most evangelical denominations lay hands at baptism. THAT is when we see the laying of hands in Scripture. Always. Baptism is not confirmation, as any Roman Catholic would (should) agree.
On tongues and prophecy, you wrote:
“Everybody is given different gifts. One is the strength to refute and correct error. Such as I am doing now.”
Trent, you have to be able to support your contentions with Scripture in order to legitimately refute or correct error. In the main, all you are able to do when you and I converse is to offer your Catholic apologetic, which I then demonstrate through Scripture is not valid. Merely arguing with a person is not the same thing as correcting error. You have consistently been shown to be in error. Not the other way around.
On confession being a sacrament without which there can be no salvation, you wrote:
“Christ gave the power to the Apostles to forgive or RETAIN a persons sins. This is a totally useless act according to protestants, because you believe you can “go directly to Jesus” to say you’re “sorry.” Saying Jesus did useless things is a blasphemy.”
Hey Trent? Show me from Scripture where the thief on the cross confessed and I will concede the point. You will find nothing in Scripture to support your position on this point. Salvation comes from God’s grace through our FAITH. (Ephesians 2:8) Nowhere is it ever written that without confession there is no salvation.
On this topic you quoted Romans 6:23, which contains not a word about confession. Please take note that when I quote a verse, my argument at least agrees with the plainly-written words of that verse. If I ever make a point about confession, I will then cite a verse or verses that actually speak plainly of confession. Think about this, please.
“Doctrine of the Apostles is Apostolic Tradition.”
Very well. But any time you wish to argue that apostolic tradition is at variance with what is written in the Word of God, you tread precariously thin ice because you find yourself having to rely on the testimony of men. A believer who subscribes to Sola Scriptura does not have to rely on the testimony of men.
On transubstantiation and the early Church, you quoted Ignatius of Antioch:
“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”
There’s nothing here that requires any belief in transubstantiation, Trent. Especially when we see that the early church UNANIMOUSLY conceived of the bread/body and the wine/blood as being symbolic. Is Christ a literal door? Is He a literal vine? Is Israel a literal house? Anyone who even tries to be consistent when dealing with the Word of God realizes that there is nothing in Scripture to support Rome’s (unlawful) assertion that the body and blood are literal. And it is easily proven that the early church universally agreed with that reality as I have done clearly above – with additional verifiable citations available for the asking.
“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”
And in the IMMEDIATE sentence prior, Ignatius wrote this:
For the whole matter is faith and love, to which there is nothing preferable.
TRENT – it is not a matter of the words being said. I admit they were said. Christ Himself uttered the words THIS IS MY BODY. Again, this is not a question of language and whether the words were spoken… it is a matter of meaning. And EVERY TIME the early church wrote about the subject, speaking of it plainly, they always maintained that the body and blood were to be understood symbolically. All of them, Trent. All who plainly opined on the matter opined alike.
“I can post more similar quotes as well. Your problem is that, as with the Bible, you either got false quotes or just do not comprehend them.”
Were my quotes in the previous post false? That is a bold charge, friend. That is witness. You just bore witness against me. Now I will expect you to provide support for that witness, otherwise your witness is false. There is a reason I gave you citations for each quote, just as you have done with your quotes. You had better go and look up those quotes for yourself before you take one more step down that road. And the Bible? You level the same careless charge. Bring your evidence right here and show me where I offered bad information or misquoted the Bible at ANY TIME. Your decision to behave in this way is reckless, disappointing, and it puts you into a precarious situation relative to truth. I will see your evidence. Now you owe me that much.
You wrote:
“St. Paul says to keep their Traditions. Traditions that protestants reject and wage war against.”
To which I responded:
“The burden of proof is yours.”
In your reply you quote 1 Thessalonians 2:14
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and HOLD THE TRADITIONS which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.”
And then you wrote:
“Point proven.”
You are actually behaving imprudently and somewhat childishly. WHERE HAVE YOU proven that the traditions Paul here makes mention of are anything Protestants “reject and wage war against”??? Are assertions the same thing as truth in your world? Do YOU accept it when someone levels a claim which you deny and they support that claim only with their own opinions and assertions? Will you accept such an argument merely because they insist that it is true, without providing ANY support from any source whatsoever? Don’t you rather DEMAND to see evidence from a valid source which plainly agrees with what that other person has said? Why then do you imagine I will take your word for any of this? The burden is yours Trent. And you are kidding yourself if you think you’ve taken even a single step in the direction of proving anything you’ve had to say since this conversation began. No. Not kidding yourself. You are straight-up lying to yourself.
“Tell me, as a protestant, what Apostolic Tradition, PASSED DOWN BY WORD (meaning outside of Scripture), do you hold?”
None. And the reason is that I believe all has been committed to the written Word of God. I don’t believe there is ANYTHING outside of Scripture to which we must seek for a complete understanding of the Gospel of Christ. This, however, was clearly not always the case. But when Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians 2:15 (you had the wrong verse, by the way), there may well have been tradition that was not yet committed to the written record. Either way we believe, it is an agreed upon fact that the New Testament Scriptures were in the process of being committed to the written record around the time Paul’s Letters to the Thessalonians were written. That reality alone provides all the support my contention in this case will ever need. I believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA, friend. And I believe in TOTA SCRIPTURA. I deny that today we must look to any other authority than the written Word of God. Furthermore, I use Scripture to support this contention, for Scripture says plainly that it alone is adequate for making us wise unto salvation – a point which all Catholics MUST deny in order to maintain their accord with Catholic teaching. It isn’t Protestants I consistently denying the Bible to protect their beliefs. But Catholics do it because they have no other choice.
“What are you talking about? One of the many points of Scripture protestants reject is the command to hold to Tradition.”
Trent, in the verse YOU quoted, Paul plainly says: WHETHER BY WORD OR EPISTLE. That is what he said. Once again, you make the claim, you owe the proof. You owe me proof of ANYONE saying in Scripture that there are traditions OUTSIDE of Scripture to which we MUST also seek if we are to have a complete and a meaningful understanding of the Gospel. What you are insisting upon does not exist anywhere from Genesis to the maps. And I will thank you to stop pretending otherwise.
“No it’s not. Vain prayer is. The Rosary is not prayer said in vain.”
There are no textual variants with this verse. All of the sources agree:
Matthew 6:7
Προσευχόμενοι δὲ μὴ βατταλογήσητε ὥσπερ οἱ ἐθνικοί…
Praying, moreover, do not use vain repetitions like the pagans…
βατταλογήσητε — Verb. Aorist Active Subjunctive, from βαττολογέω Definition: I chatter, am long-winded, utter empty words, stammer, repeat.
“Indulgences ONLY lessen time in purgatory.”
This is a conversation about what is in the Bible, Trent.
On the conflation of prison with purgatory, you wrote:
“Every parable Christ said has a spiritually meaning. The Judge is God, the officer an Angel and prison is purgatory. And the prison cant be hell, because hell is for eternity.”
Hell is not for eternity. That is yet another Catholic innovation for which we find zero support in the Scriptures, when the Scriptures are dutifully examined by their own light.
“A brazen serpent”: This was a figure of Christ crucified, and of the efficacy of a lively faith in him, against the bites of the hellish serpent. John 3. 14.” – Douay Rheims Bible.”
Indeed it was a figure of Christ crucified. But why did God instruct Moses to use a serpent? That’s not something you’ll find answered in any Catholic teaching. You will, however, find the answer in Scripture, if you seek prudently and diligently.
On δώσω (I WILL give), you wrote:
“Future when he said it. About 2000 years in the past now.”
Do I really have to say it? Prove it. By now you should not even bother making these wild assertions as if they’ll carry any weight at all in conversation with me or with any other. Are you an advocate for truth or an advocate for opinion? If you think it’s true, then search the Scriptures, find some confirming witness, and come to the conversation with something in your hand other than unfounded supposition. And Trent, if it’s true then you will be able to find support for it in Scripture. Good luck.
On the ‘list of popes’, you wrote:
“First of all, I know it’s true.”
Well. That’s convincing.
“You wanted to know, you look it up.”
As if you believe I have not.
“And secondly, why should I trust any source from the satanic world?”
You need a confirming witness, Trent. Go find secular sources. Go find historical sources written by men who don’t give a fat rat’s rear about Catholic teaching, one way or the other. Sometimes the best historical information comes from guys who don’t have a dog in the hunt. But mostly you should do it because God told you to TEST EVERYTHING. Everything. That includes all claims emanating from Catholic sources. E V E R Y T H I N G. And if you don’t, then you’re not in compliance with God’s instructions.
“Satan is the father of lies.”
And? Does that mean you don’t owe confirming witness or that you don’t have to listen to God?
“Fill my head with centuries of garbage? No thanks.”
That right there is what the kids call your standard garden-variety cop-out.
You walk carelessly, you seek imprudently, and you are too quick to make excuses for Rome and their errant teachings. You can do better. And if you actually tried to obey God’s instructions and commandments, you would do better.
Trent if Passover is over why then do your priest give to those they “control” — little round wafers and wine?
Christ did not state with “desire I have desired to eat the “communion” with you — He used “This Passover” meaning HIS BODY and HIS BLOOD.
The bread and the wine are the symbols of PASSOVER
Was the “flesh” Christ gave to His disciples round? or was it the broken pieces of unleavened bread with not one piece the same?
Nothing of God is exactly the same; God does not create “cookie cutter” sameness.
God’s altar can not be made of bricks it must be of rough stones as they are – not formed by human into the same shape.
Nothing the catholic church does is in accord with the mind of God the Father OR His Son Jesus Christ.
Any particle of the Body or drop of the Blood mistreated is a sacrilege. The Blood is not given out, because the Church has determined that the Blood is in the Body. The Bread is rounded to help prevent the possibility of particles falling off. Christ was preparing the New Covenant whilst still following the old. The old Covenant officially ended with Christ’s death on the cross. The veil in the temple tearing was a symbol of that. The old law is dead.
trent
your pope just has to be more careful and righteous then the apostles or Christ?
Show us where it states the old covenant officially ended — As per Paul it has not yet gone
3 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
it is ready to vanish thus it is not yet gone.
“Show us where it states the old covenant officially ended — As per Paul it has not yet gone”
trent, the Old Covenant/contact was agreed to at the beginning of the 40 years in the wilderness not 2000 years ago, more like 3000 years ago
Christ came to confirm the New Covenant — which provides better promise — over a 7 year time but was cut short by half, He only worked for 3 1/2 years. — Christ has 3 1/2 years remaining to finish the conformation.
Trent as a catholic we realize it is hard to accept facts.
When the coming KING of kings returns He will cast your pope into the Lake of Fire and then the world will be at peace.
trent so God changed His mind and now things can be cookie cutter copies one of another?
Trent again the ONLY change from one covenant to the next was to the promises of God thus the LAW was never removed.
If the Law were removed then there is no “consideration” and with out a consideration the contract is invalid.
Show me in the Bible where it talks about “cookie cutter copies.”
I gave a quote that clearly states that the New Covenant is “not according to the testament which I made to their fathers.” Meaning it is a different one. The old one is over, done, finito.
trent you refuse to acknowledge actual scriptures which is why you will remain trapped in Catholicism .
No there is no reference to cookie cutter in the Word, the point is God creates each of us individual and one of a kind none like another and when He has completed HIS work in each of us we will each a be a one of a kind masterpiece unique in every way not one like another –which is why little round wafers is an abomination to God the Father and Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the master potter and we are the clay and God only make master pieces.
trent you are aware that there is not one finger print of the 7 billion alive today that is like another??
that is the way God Creates,— we are to understand the spiritual by the physical.