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Jehovah's Witnesses Are a Masonic, Satanic Cult Proof (Video)

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The Vigilant Christian, whom I do not always agree with, explains the five reasons the JWs are not who they say they are.  The next time they come pestering at your door, ask them these five questions.



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    • abnegative

      You are focusing way too much on a man , Russell , who was removed from the organisation very early on in it’s formative years . If you had done your homework you would know that and perhaps for the very things in the way of mason beliefs ect . you are pointing out .
      As for the evil image in the reverse image , to sate that is something done knowingly or with intent is reaching at best . While the possible use of the image of the greek philosopher , which may well have been used merely as an image of someone with the look of the contemporaries , was not a great idea , again you are really reaching. The hand of Jesus not rendered in a first class art form is hardly evidence a group is illuminati .
      You are really reaching . You have got to do better than this .. I can tell you this , while I am not a JW , I was one for 10yrs , have not been so for 15yrs and never had any reason to suspect the motives other than to “preach the good news of the kingdom” , as all christians are commanded by Jesus himself .
      Do you know anyone ever killed in war by a JW in good standing ? Clearly there are individuals with problems in all walks of life /religion/race/culture , but JW’s don’t go to war and as a rule observe the rule of law in their respective lands .
      If you want t bring something in the way of accusation , you have a lot of work to do because what you have here especially the items about Russell don’t amount to anything beyond you don’t like JWs and are trying to torpedo them .

      • StraightDopes

        abnegative:

        why did you leave the organization, if you don’t mind my asking?

        • abnegative

          I feel the traditional timeline of creation is off and there have been highly advanced beings here on earth long before humans as we know them were here . This is a large departure from most typical christian doctrine and feel it better to “not rock the boat “if you understand my meaning . If you go into any church and talk with members about ancient advanced civilizations helping man or even having a hand in their development many people have issues . Many people can’t think of the bible’s God and the existance of ET life . I have np problem with it and personally feel it to be a very well hidden reality .

      • truthlovingsoul

        i am an equal opportunity exposer. all religions have long since been infiltrated by satanists, jw is no exception.

        • abnegative

          fair enough but your case as presented is weak at best . To even involve Russell in your condemnation today would be like judging a country as corrupt that had a bad president that they impeached and removed from office 100 years ago .

      • Saber

        Agreed. I’m 52 and was raised Catholic by my Father, but my Mom was a JW almost my entire life. I know enough about JW’s to know they’re mostly very, very true to their faith. Much more so than most others that profess to be christians

        • truthlovingsoul

          yes, most people are good people.
          at the top of all these religions is where we need to focus. who are they, how did they get to where they are, where does the money go, etc. i am sure you are a good person. does not mean this is not a possible theory, at least?
          imagine me saying “well, i’m a good person and the people in my church seem like good people, and my family are good people, so i guess my whole religion is made up of all good people!”
          like the masons, all churches are run, at the very bottom, by damn fine people. :)

        • Mayhem

          The reason “they’re mostly very, very true to their faith” is they’re being, actively, discouraged to have nothing to do with the rest of us and especially ex JW’s. The brain washing couldn’t be more obvious.

      • Lord Humungus

        http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/davinci-freemason.php

        Conclusion

        The 1933 book Occult Theocrasy, tracing religious occult beliefs throughout history rightfully discussed the early 1900′s Watchtower Society.

        “In 1879 Russell founded The Watch Tower of which he was the sole editor. The Russellite teaching, drawing its own arbitrary conclusions and proclaiming them as final, professes to prove from Biblical sources that all Christian churches are evil and corrupt, that the time of the Gentiles ended in 1914, and that the Jews must henceforth reign supreme over the world. It also elaborates an occult dogma alleged to be based on biblical precedents.”1

        A look at the history of Jehovah’s witnesses show Russell was greatly influenced by Masonic teachings, partly due to the views of Adventist teachers around him. These were not a minor error on his part, but rather well developed teachings that were promoted for fifty years, well into the leadership of Rutherford. Long after Jesus is said to have inspected and cleansed his organization in 1919 Jehovah’s Witnesses continued to promote these pagan views as truth. It is difficult to reconcile these teachings with Watchtower statements that they are the only channel the Lord uses to feed his members with truth, and that there has been no significant change in the truths they have promoted.

        • Omega Files

          Boom.

      • Mayhem

        After all Charles Taze Russell only had, at least, two failed prophecies behind him not to mention being humiliated in a British court and found a liar. I guess they had to get rid of him or face widespread ridicule. Stick that in your pipe, abnegative.

        • Lord Humungus

          The foundation of this enterprise was set in sand as evidence by the false prophet Russell.

          The more time spend researching this new age religion the less sincere and truthful it appears. That is no jab.

        • abnegative

          again , baseing a condemnation on things that occured MANY years ago , weak … Brain washed , not hardly . Obviously you did not read my post stating I have belief differences and rather than trying to stir up things I chose to have some distance , however I have some very good friends and customers who are JW’s in good standing , the ones I know are good people .

        • StraightDopes

          abnegative:

          you said you’re an Ex-JW and:

          >” however I have some very good friends and customers who are JW’s in good standing , the ones I know are good people .”

          are you “disfellowshipped”? if so, do those JWs you still associate with know you’re disfellowshipped?

          also, again, in matters VERY MUCH is Charles Taze Russell was a liar (and he certainly directly lied at least about knowing Koine Greek, as Mayhem has pointed out), since the JWs claim that they are the “only true religion.” a group that does not make such an extravagant claim would have no problem distancing themselves from their founder, but in the case of the JWs, this is NOT POSSIBLE. they claim to be the “only true” religion. if their founder was a liar, then when did they BECOME the “only true religion”???

          so it matters very, very much if Russell was a liar and knew nothing of the things he claimed to know.

      • yes2truth

        @ Abnegative.

        Re CTR you just shot yourself in the foot. You said:

        “Who was removed from the organisation very early on in it’s formative years.”

        Well if, as you say, he was involved in it’s FORMATION within those formative years then that is the mould that was set which must have included the created non-Jesus.

        JW’s are just another blasphemous monotheist Judaising bunch of anti-Christs – period.

        http://isthefathercallingyoutohisson.wordpress.com/

        http://yes2faith.wordpress.com/

        http://yes2truthblog.wordpress.com/

      • Anonymous

        Socially speaking, and as an outsider, I have nothing to say against JW’s. Impeccable, social conservatives. The old-school, Christian mainstream should be so irreproachable. I say, with no personal disrespect, that there are logical inconsistencies.

        Some of your rituals do appear to have material in common with Masonic beliefs.

        I do not have a bad history with you. I am asking for nothing, am not here to make a name for myself, am not speaking out of condemnation, toward any of you, personally.

    • kal98

      jehovah the god of war

    • Pink Slime

      The Jehovah’s witness are in DIRECT violation of what Christ has ordered for Christians to be saved. They get the very name WRONG and by announcing who they are warned you know who they are – DECEIVERS!

      • truthlovingsoul

        good point.

    • trashman

      I ought too know about JWs, Jehovahs Witnesses are NOT Russelites!!! Russelites split off the main group, they believed Charles Russel was something more than HE claimed. Charles Taze Russel came from wealthy Businessman. When he recieved the inheritance from his Father, he immediately used the money too Spread Bible truths. He started by buying neccessesary equipments too print Bible based equipment, and most importantly BIBLES! Now this article wants too cuss JWs, let me tell u this, JWs Stick too the Bible as the only source for absolute Truth. To this daythey stick too the bible as the source for guidance, truth, hope, and direction. Call me what u want but I dont JUDGE people off what their ancestors did, i judge people off ( What THEY DO ). Jesus stated that the Good News of Gods Kingdom would be preached worldwide, and guess what, JWs do just that. Name one other organization who can preach too every country of the whole world, using the Holy name of Jehovah. If any of you dont believe me Use The name of Jehovah too a satanist, and observe the reaction! The Creators name is Holy, His name is YHWH and in english Jehovah. I can say for a certainty that Jehovahs Witnesses are NOT in any way part of the un-holy nwo. Infact they are the Opposite of the nwo. Please ask a JW what the hope is for us based on the bible. OUR hope is in Gods Kingdom, NOT the devils!!!!! Infact the bible states that soon God will put the dragon ( satan ) into the abyss, wherer he will be bound. The earth will be cleansed for mankind and peace will reign. JWs are in fact ANTI-NWO, to the extreme. WE look too the future with hope. WE know that it will NOT come from mankind and especially the devil! DONT believe everythign you read please. If i wanted too know about a Catholic i will go to a Catholic and ask. gl and GB

      • Lord Humungus

        http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/davinci-freemason.php

        “If you enjoyed The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown and are interested in the development of modern religion you will be intrigued by this section. A number of the symbols and teachings discussed by Brown as having origins with the Knights Templar, Freemasons and Illuminati, and tracing back to the Egyptians, have been used by Mormons, Christian Science and Russell’s Watch Tower Bible Students.”

      • truthlovingsoul

        it sounds like you are a good and sincere person, and that is what makes any organization strong. good ground floor workers. what the gf guys don’t always know is that the guys at the very top are gangsters. it is found in every religion, everywhere. does it mean thaat all jws are satanists? of course not. the top of everything everywhere is corrupt. you guys are no exception, though i am sure you are a good person.
        i was raised strict roman catholic. do you know how hard it was to lose my trust and faith in something that was such a big part of my life? i am not saying you need to quit your church or anything but you must examine the possibility of this being true. you must investigate, no? whatever, have a good night. peace.

      • StraightDopes

        Trashman:

        the JWs claim to be the “only true religion,” and that ALL forms of faith – Christian or otherwise – are false religious systems. the JWs were FOUNDED by Charles Taze Russel.. so whereas any other faith might be able to distance themselves from their founder, in the case of the JWs, this isn’t really a possibility. if you do that, then WHEN exactly did the JWs BECOME the “only true faith”?

        as for this part:

        >”The Creators name is Holy, His name is YHWH and in english Jehovah.”

        it’s been demonstrated over and over again that “Jehovah” is NOT the Name of God. it was actually a Catholic priest that first used that name. Hebrew doesn’t even have a hard “J” sound. again, this wouldn’t normally be a big deal, but since the Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be the only true faith, and that they’re the only group using God’s “real” name, it becomes a big deal. once again, the JWs’ claim of exclusivity actually destroys their own arguments.

        you also say:

        >”To this day they stick too the bible as the source for guidance, truth, hope, and direction.”

        this is just plain flatly untrue. anyone who has “studied” with the JWs (as i have) KNOWS this is not true.

        if you do a “Bible study” with the JWs, you most certainly will NOT be studying the Bible alone. they will bring with them JW literature and read paragraph after paragraph from THAT literature, occasionally going back to THEIR “translation” of the Bible to supposedly substantiate their claims. their “Bible study” is actually a study of Watchtower literature, interspersed with occasional Bible passages (from their “New World Translation.” interesting name).

        tell me, Trashman, do you know of ANYONE who has EVER become a JW just from studying the Bible on their own. of course not.

    • Jack F00BAR

      Every Jehovah’s Witness I’ve ever met was a damaged weak willed puppy with a matching IQ. They aren’t smart enough to be agents. Annoying but harmless. No need to go digging into them. They have enough problems all on their own.

      • StraightDopes

        Jack:

        that’s a pretty unfair statement. i can think of one JW apologist whose intellect i actually have a great deal of respect for: Greg Stafford. while i seriously disagree with his viewpoints, he’s a very bright man and does a decent job in defending the erroneous JW belief system.

        the reason we should not shy away from demonstrating the falsehood of Watchtower theology is that they’re teaching lies – and they’re lies that have bearing on the state of one’s soul and their relationship to their Creator. they also destroy families with their doctrine of “disfellowshipping.” i can’t think of too many things that are more evil than that.

    • FindtheTruth

      Where have you been all this time? I knew they were shady about 30 years ago.

    • Anonymous

      The JW’s are right about one thing as delineated in their booklet ‘the divine name that will endure forever’.
      Read it and weep.
      Christians, as a whole cult, are murdering bastards. I speak literally, and not to be offensive but, read it and weep.
      Santa Claus! Give me a break.

      • StraightDopes

        Moriyah:

        your comment is bigoted and idiotic. let me try your line of argumentation:

        -Muslims, as a whole, are murdering terrorists.

        -Blacks, as a whole, are violent gang members

        -Mexicans, as a whole, are lazy gardeners and landscapers

        -Irish, as a whole, are garrulous drunkards.

        you’re a bigot, plain and simple.

    • Baa Ram Ewe

      Just download this 5 min video about the REAL behavior of the Jehovah witnesses…

      http://goo.gl/gf4LGI

      • StraightDopes

        did you use a link shortener just to mask that the fact that the source of the video is the Watchtower/JW organization itself??

        your post itself actually best demonstrates the “REAL behavior of the Jehovah’s Witnesses” – MISREPRESENTATION!

        it’s sort of like the JWs asking you if you want to do a “Bible study”… and then they whip out the Watchtower’s literature and study THAT.

        • Lord Humungus

          Quote: “your post itself actually best demonstrates the “REAL behavior of the Jehovah’s Witnesses” – MISREPRESENTATION!”

          Mr JW himself Mike Savage demonstrated that same behavior by using multiple accounts instead of honesty. He has never addressed his use of the EMERY account.. because he is of course without sin and ready to freely cast a stone from either hand.

          King of Shambala / Hitler Parody (VIDEO)
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cTk_Yu9TBs

        • GUNNY

          The only thing preventing that video from achieving full genius status was ‘unmitigated GAUL.’

          An otherwise brilliant production.

          Someone buy “Mr. Hammer” a Samichlaus and put it on my tab.

        • BEEFUS SUPREME

          Mike Savage, harbinger of DEMONIC Creatures, you are a dog!

          You, Mike Savage, are a TRAITOR to the USA over your religious Insane DELUSIONS, which you spread like a herpes virus among susceptible BIN readers.

          NOW HEAR THIS Mike Savage the TRAITOR TO GOD!

          Every time you post anything on this website, I personally am going to blow up the comment section by posting the video of your THUS SAYETH YAHWEH… “EFFF YOU.”

          YOU DISGUSTING LIAR.

          YOU HAVE NO FEAR OF YHWH.

          YOU ARE AN ENEMY OF THE TRUTH.

          YOU ARE AN ENEMY OF THE GOSPEL.

          YOU WILL REPENT AT ONCE OF THESE CRIMES:

          1. You have falsely and fraudulently usurped for yourself the office of a prophet of the Most High

          2. You have falsely and fraudulently put words of filth and vileness in the MOUTH of the Most High, when HE HAS NOT SPOKEN.
          You will repent of these crimes publicly, to the men and women of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. You will repent to the people of Messiah Yehoshua.

          Wherever you go on the internet, I will find you. I will resist you at every turn. You are in GROSS VIOLATION of the LAWS and the COMMANDMENTS of YHWH ELOHIM MOST HIGH.

          YOU TAKE HIS NAME IN VAIN. YOU ARE A FALSE PROPHET. YOU ARE A LIAR. YOU ARE A CRIMINAL.

          Thus sayeth your elder, I, THE Real BEEF SUPREME

          For your penance, SAY 10 times, Mike Savage,

          “I have repented for Not believing THE Word of THE Real BEEF SUPREME!

          YOU WILL REPENT for saying THUS SAYETH YAHWEH when YHWH has NOT SPOKEN.

          YOU WILL REPENT FOR LYING to your brothers and sisters.

          You will repent for taking His Name in VAIN.

          So help me Mike Savage the TRAITOR TO GOD, I will make following you my full-time job.

    • Andor

      I agree with you! They do not accept the Son of Man, our Christ so what are they then? Definitely not Christians

      • trashman

        What? They do not accept the son of man? OMG ! The son of man is no other than Jesus the son of God. Christ is at the heart of anyone who professes Christianity. Without Jesus all would be truly lost. Who has been spreading that lie? Jehovahs witnesses Absolutely believe in Jesus, and totally accept h im as Gods only begotten Son. Furthermore without him we would have no hope! Seriously, please, if i want too know about someone elses religion ( I ask that Religion ). One of their members. We believe that Jehovah is Jesuses Father. Jesus being of his own direct creation, Observed his Father in the heavens, and assisted him in creating the spiritual and Physcical Universe. Pardon the typos please. What happens a lot is some religions Assume that because We dont believe in the Trinity, then we dont believe in Jesus. Nothing could be further from the truth! Proverbs 8:22 states it where Jesus was Created. I was brought up around many different religions, Catholic, Baptist, even Buddism. Idont judge people in those religions cause i know that Individuals are just that ( Individuals ). Each one of us will have too make a accounting before our Creator in the final judgment, But i can at least say that i tried too make a difference, I tried too help my neighbor, I tried too encourage Bible reading, and Family bonding, with love. If any of you out their read my posts i get mad sometimes over the evil in the world. I get mad at the Governments doing horrible things too innocent people, but i wish everyone Peace. Its about too get very Horrific when things go down financially, spiritually, and of course Morally. I wish all too please stop bickering, and pointing fingers, rather please Pray, live the best life u can. Help your fellow man, encourage peace , and love while we wait on our Heavenly Father ( With his Son JESUS), at the Helm so to speak, taking charge of this polluted world , and making it a place worth living in. I wish all Peace, and God Bless

        • larry4765

          Jesus Christ is co-equal to the Father. God did not create Jesus. He has always been in the God-Head. That is why JW are a cult. In the Old Testament all the activities of God is from Christ Jesus. The Father does all through Jesus Christ.

      • StraightDopes

        trashman:

        i know you guys believe in Jesus, in the sense that He is God’s Son, existed, died (though you guys claim it was a “torture stake,” and not a Roman cross), and rose again. you deny, however, that He is fully God. well, that matter – BIGTIME – and here’s why:

        if Jesus was NOT God Himself and a co-equal member of the Trinity (which, of course, transcends human reason), then when Jesus died for our sins Jehovah basically TORTURED AND KILLED AN INNOCENT MAN for OUR sins. this is not heroic. this is not “good news.” this is a completely disgusting, inappreciable act of MURDER

        • StraightDopes

          whoops – hit “submit” prematurely…

          it would be an UNJUST ACT OF MURDER. there would be nothing Godly about it, at all. i cannot understand how someone could believe that Jesus is just a created being, and simultaneously believe that God was anything less than a MURDERER by ordaining that this INNOCENT MAN be unjustly tortured and killed because someone other than Him sinned. it’s so bizarre that i can only imagine that those who believe such lunacy haven’t even thought about this implication of their beliefs, since even brief consideration of this aspect of the story provides sufficient reason to completely discard the belief as utterly inconsistent with a Holy and Just God.

          so, FORGET the myriad verses and passages in Scripture that show that Jesus is NOT merely a man – or a created being for that matter – verses that the “New World Translation” went out of its way (with its anonymous translators) to deliberately mistranslate. the fact that you end up believing that God MURDERED an innocent man Who was completely uninvolved with our own sins and shared no guilt in them should have clued you in that you’ve made an awful mistake.

        • Anonymous

          Unfortunately, your comment means you know very little understanding of the Bible when it comes to the subject of the “ransom.” Adam & Eve were perfect and lost their lives for disobedience to Jehovah God for something as simple as not eating the forbidden fruit. Of course Satan the Devil told Eve she would be like God (a goddess) if she did. He deceived Eve. Their off springs (all humanity) inherited sin and death for Adam & Eve’s disobedience. Not only that, but Satan had challenged Jehovah God’s Sovereignty and Rulership. So God had already arranged for mankind’s redemption in the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve had children, for future generations. Genesis 3:15 talks of the seed, which was Christ Jesus, HIS son and first creation, to deliver mankind from sin and imperfection for not only the living but also the dead, righteous and unrighteous through the resurrection during the thousand year reign of Christ Jesus. How could this be done? Only through the “Ransom Sacrifice” of a perfect, sinless human.. Only then could mankind be redeemed from sin and death. Jehovah God’s son would be the only one who could do this. Jesus did this willingly, just as Abraham willingly obeyed and submitted to God’s command to sacrifice his Isaac. Jesus knew his FATHER had the power to bring him back to life. So you comment means you evidently do not comprehend the situation or you object to both Jehovah God and Jesus being willing to provide a “Ransom” for humanity so they can have the same opportunity Adam and Eve had to live forever in Paradise on Earth as the Bible holds out. The only “hope for humanity.” Without such hope, living would be worthless.

        • StraightDopes

          Anonymous:

          by and large, i agree with what you wrote. except for:

          >Genesis 3:15 talks of the seed, which was Christ Jesus, HIS son and first creation

          the “first creation” part.

          can you show me in Scripture where God describes “creating” Jesus?

          thanx in advance.

    • abnegative

      Sstatig they do not accept Christ as the messiah shows one clearly does not know about their doctrine , it is central to salvation and pleasing God . Get your water from the source , not some dirty transfer truck .

      • Crazy times

        Je-HOVAH (Witnesses) in HEBREW..No J in Hebrew….

        This Speaks volumes especially their DENIAL… of… JESUS IS GOD

        Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon Search Results

        Result of search for “1942″:……..Hovah

        1942 havvah hav-vaw’ from 1933 (in the sense of eagerly coveting and rushing upon; by implication, of falling); desire; also RUIN:–calamity, INIQUITY, mischief, MISCHIEVOUS (thing), naughtiness, naughty, NOISOM, PERVERSE THING, substance, VERY WICKEDNESS.

        1943 hovah ho-vaw’ another form for 1942;… RUIN:–mischief.

        there you have it…..NO wonder Orthodox Jews will not say this Name… JE-HOVAH.

        Philippians 2:11

        and that EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, to the glory of God the Father.

        Let’s break that Down further …. JESUS CHRIST IS (LORD) JEHOVAH.. in your NWT … :grin:

        JW’s are a Satanic Cult from the Pit of HELL …

        furthermore from above definition of: “Noisome” from “annoy” :arrow: (annoysome) has in Bible English the meaning of “evil,” Offensive to the point of arousing disgust.

        Any real Christian who Interacts with them will find this out soon…. enuff

        .

    • NWO for Dummies.

      Most of them are well meaning people otherwise they wouldn’t give up their time to knock on doors.
      Just be polite and they’ll go away happy enough. Thats all they ask really, from my experience.

      • elijah

        When I see the ‘duos’ out knocking on doors, I arrange comfy chairs around my Bible and concordance…right there in the living room….and wait for the knock to come. I’ve had many very good debates in this arena, usually ending in a mad dash to get away from the old crazy guy, and his scripture. Great fun.

        • NWO for Dummies.

          :lol:

    • la artiste

      hello, I have been lurking here at B4N for a few years now and i love this website. To abnegative and trashman you two are obviously JW’s. That means that you know better (or should) not to “throw your pearls before the swine”. The arguments by themselves show the bios/ slandering/ and attack the character types that are some sincere and some purposely dirrogetory . To straightdope and others: I am on of JW’s and i used to be one of you. i used to believe (brainwashed/programmed) in the trinity and other teachings, i was a southern Baptist. My wife was a strong catholic. We both read the Bible and left our faiths and later found the JW’s to be open minded, forthright in answering our Bible related questions, with the Bible. I became baptised after my Honorable didcharge from the Marine Corps after Desert Storm. I find it interesting that on a website that is about alternative news and other topics that people that come here are usually open minded, kind of like liberal democrats who says they are all about free speech and protecting your family etc…. but cannot see anyone else’s opinion or belief without taking it as a personal attack on themselves. I could spend hours debatinjg you with countless greivances of the catholic church, or the other so called Christian faiths. With scripture with historic facts of bloodshed, control through patriotism,God and country, fear,and division. I have only been here for a little over 50 years and i cannot believe that people are so easily controlled by our gov’ts, churches,schools,work, dogmas’ politics,strife wars and racism. Don’t you all see that you are all being controlled like puppets by Satan? He rules the entire world. with everything going on in the world I Can’t believe you can’t see it. Especially people like all of you and me that are trying to open our minds and free ourselves from this paradigm we live in and come to this site to escape all ot the close=minded sheeple! you all need to visit Zen Gardners website .. and get a grip on reality!!! Good luck and love to you all!

      • truthlovingsoul

        all organized religions are controlled at the top by those who USE GOOD PEOPLE to further their aims. of course most people are good people, but it is those who are good who join corrupted, satanic organizations who are casting pearls before swine.
        it MATTERS who you feed.

        • elijah

          The Pentocostal tongue, was understood by all who heard. Heard it In their own native language, down to the dialect of the area they came from. A miracle.
          Needed no interpretation or translation.
          I think that the modern practice of ‘speaking in tongues’, is rife with the influences of “familiar spirits”. Deut 18:11 calls it an abomination.

      • StraightDopes

        la artiste:

        i’ll reply, since i was directly addressed in your comment. first of all, let me start by saying thank you for your service. even though i strongly disagree with the mission, i recognize that the vast majority of those who served in the military did so with admirable intentions. i could also imagine that direct involvement in a war would make a faith with tenants such as pacifism and a lack of emphasis on mindless, “patriotic” allegiance very appealing, though i do not pretend to know your motives. as for what you’ve said:

        >” i used to believe (brainwashed/programmed) in the trinity and other teachings, i was a southern Baptist.”

        it’s very interesting that you’ve said this. i’d like to know more about how you claim to have been “brainwashed” in this regard. i can only imagine that this must be some sort of hyperbole. very many people have come to the Christian faith – and of no particular denomination – simply by reading the BIBLE and the BIBLE ALONE, without any other commentary or person directing their study. they count the triune nature of God as one of the central tenants of their faith. i know, because i am one of those people. it also would not have mattered which translation of the Bible i had been reading, since i had access to several, all roughly saying the same things.

        >”Don’t you all see that you are all being controlled like puppets by Satan? He rules the entire world. ”

        EXCEPT for the Watchtower Bible and Tract Association. is this correct? you see, i agree with the gist of your statement here, but you seem to exclude the WBTS. this is rather stunning, considering their track record of repeatedly prophesying the end of the world and the return of Jesus Christ. it would seem to me, from clear Bible teaching, that a group that makes false prophecies would itself be a “puppet of Satan.” it certainly wouldn’t be the will of God to make false prophecies, now would it?

        http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1800s.php

        that article shows all the failed predictions, and gives quotes directly from Watchtower literature. the WT would like to pretend this never happened – they certainly don’t advertise their failed prophecies – but the facts are, they DID predict the end of the world, REPEATEDLY. each time, needless to say, it failed to materialize. how ANYONE could possibly believe that this is the “only true religion” simply defies belief. they act far more like servants of Satan in this regard than servants of God. again, if they weren’t a group that makes such exclusive claims of being the “only true religion,” this wouldn’t be such a big deal – people make mistakes, and they could just chalk it up as the mistake of an organization that was overly zealous to see the return of Jesus Christ. unfortunately, that is not an option for the Watchtower, because of their claim of exclusivity.

        which brings me to:

        >”I Can’t believe you can’t see it.”

        …join the club :wink:

        • GUNNY

          I’ll go a few rounds with you on that Trinity thing, if you want to, Dopes.

          It’s a late addition to the Word — the two verses which directly reference Father/Son/Holy Spirit, have been added by the likes of Erasmus and codified by the likes of Roman ecumenical councils. Even though ALL extant manuscripts include the altered verses, we can nonetheless prove with abundant evidence, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the changes were made and by whom.

          And while rejecting all notions of a Trinity (as applied to The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit), we can easily do so without impugning Messiah’s Deity.

        • GUNNY

          Also:

          The notion that Messiah is the Archangel Michael is flatly defeated by Scripture:

          Col 1:16

          For by him (Messiah) were ALL THINGS created, that are IN HEAVEN, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him…

          Psalm 148:2 and 5

          Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts….
          …Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

          Messiah created the angels.

          There is ONE who is from Everlasting (H5769 עלם ‛ôlâm):

          Psalms 41:13

          Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, from Everlasting…

          Psalms 90:2

          …Thou hadst formed the Earth and the world, even from Everlasting…

          Psalms 93:2

          …Thou art from Everlasting

          Isaiah 63:16

          …Thy Name is from Everlasting.

          Habakkuk 1:12

          Art Thou not from Everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One…

          Who is from Everlasting? Not the angels. Not men. YHWH ONLY is from Everlasting. The Father…

          …and the Word:

          Micah 5:2

          But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

          And the Word is Messiah Yehoshua (Jesus Christ).

          Not Archangel Michael.

          John 10:30

          I and My Father are One.

        • StraightDopes

          hey there, Brother BEEF:

          >I’ll go a few rounds with you on that Trinity thing, if you want to, Dopes.

          ahh yes – i think i remember you commenting in another place a while back that you’re a “binitarian.”

          and i’m guessing you’re referring to the “Johannine comma,” but that’s hardly the only Scripture that matters. even granting that this is an addition by Erasmus, there are plenty of other Scriptures that point to the Personhood of the Holy Spirit – for instance, He is “lied to” in Acts 5. but is His “person-hood” in debate here, or just His divinity? i’m not sure.

        • GUNNY

          “i think i remember you commenting in another place a while back that you’re a “binitarian.””

          Never heard such words uttered from me, brother. Could be that OTHER Beef Supreme darkening these halls with his lies. You noted elsewhere on this very page the ambiguity inherent in this topic. And with that, I couldn’t agree more. There is what we might even call DELIBERATE ambiguity, with respect to this topic, contained in the written Word. So no, I’m not a ‘binitarian’ any more than a Trinitarian. I believe The Father and The Son both occupy Eternity – which is itself set apart from the Heavens and the Earth. I believe They are the only One there. But I believe if anyone else ever comes to occupy Eternity (Ha Olam), that they TOO will be, with The Father and The Son, the only One there. Does that make sense?

          “and i’m guessing you’re referring to the “Johannine comma,” but that’s hardly the only Scripture that matters.”

          You’re right. Matthew 28:19 matters just as much. And evidence shows clear tampering with that verse as well. Eusebius wrote extensively on Matthew 28:19 before it was corrupted in the early 300’s. Eusebius’s writings reflect the original wording, which does not include anything that could be construed as Trinitarian. Moreover, the corrupters of the verses have admitted the deed, and have defended their actions by claiming they only wanted to help readers of the Scriptures to see the ‘truth’ of the Trinity more clearly. So to their thinking, Truth needed a little help from their editorial pens.

          “even granting that this is an addition by Erasmus, there are plenty of other Scriptures that point to the Personhood of the Holy Spirit”

          I’m not arguing the wording of personification, brother. In Scripture, the SWORD is likewise personified. Yet we do not move to deify the Sword or ascribe person-hood to it.

          “for instance, He is “lied to” in Acts 5. but is His “person-hood” in debate here, or just His divinity? i’m not sure.”

          Literary devices like metaphor and personification found in Scripture are no reason to deify or ascribe person-hood to anything. Do you have a spirit? Of course you do. Is your spirit different from you, connected with you, or wholly separate from you? Is it only a constituent part of you? Or is it co-equal with you? Can you even be defined apart from it? My suggestion is that, no, you cannot be defined apart from your spirit any more than you could rightly be defined apart from your head. It is likewise with The Father and The Son – who share a Spirit. But this is not the same as suggesting that Spirit is one OF Them. Moreover, the origins of Trinitarian doctrine are not at all difficult to discover. I believe the Truth of the matter is much better than the limiting and logically-deficient notions inherent in Trinitarian Doctrine. I think the Truth is better than doctrine – and I think that is always the case.

        • StraightDopes

          the “binitarian” comment was my own attempt at placing a label on your position, BEEF.

          literary devices are one thing – but when such a “device” is so repeatedly used, as it is with regards to imbuing the Holy Spirit with all the elements of personhood, eventually we should no longer be considering a literary device, and we should take such verses at face value. for instance, the fact that He can be blasphemed, lied to, grieved, etc. also, oftentimes terms are interchangeable, such as “Truth.” is Jesus the “Truth,” or is the Holy Spirit “Truth?” (1 John 5:6) if we say “it’s just a thing – a concept,” then we are essentially saying the same of Jesus, aren’t we? i can see if Scripture merely referred to the Holy Spirit as the “Spirit OF Truth” (which it does), but it also actually calls the Spirit the Truth ITSELF.

          if the Spirit is merely a descriptor of God Himself, then what are we to make, for instance, of Acts 19:2:

          “He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.”

          (i really hate the use of “ghost,” but whatever – that’s the KJV)

          if the men were already theists of some stripe, how would they even make such a statement? it doesn’t really make any sense. i’d imagine they already knew what Scripture said about “God is Spirit.”

          i like that you brought up the word “spirit” in the context of man – that is, one’s “spirit.” i always considered this an excellent proof of God’s triune nature – that we are “made in the image of God.” part and parcel of our bearing the “imago dei” is that we, too, are triune beings – body, soul, and spirit. so, no, i cannot imagine myself – or anyone else – apart from their spirit. it’s part of our being-ness.

        • GUNNY

          “…eventually we should no longer be considering a literary device, and we should take such verses at face value.”

          Your point is well made.

          “…is Jesus the “Truth,” or is the Holy Spirit “Truth?””

          Is the Angel of the LORD the LORD? The Angel identified as the LORD when He spoke with Moses from the burning bush. I consider these matters linked. The spirit of truth is something in common between anyone who shares in the Spirit of YHWH and Messiah.

          “…but it also actually calls the Spirit the Truth ITSELF.”

          The wording in question is confusing and somewhat illogical. That it is also one verse prior to the infamous Comma Johanneum should not escape our notice. See here how the Latin Vulgate shows:

          …et Spiritus est qui testificatur quoniam Christus est veritas

          That is, the Spirit testifies that Christ is Truth. And Dopes, if we are going to call the Spirit Truth, then we have to find a second witness to confirm it. Do you have a second witness? I think this verse suffers from the same contamination that the Comma does. If we go one step further to verse 6, we see that the disparity between the manuscripts grows even greater. The Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus and the Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus agree with each other, but they contain completely different wording from the Byzantine Majority, the Alexandrian and the Hort and Westcott MSS. That’s the main reason why confirming witness is so important in this case. Without it, my sense is that the verse should be read as it appears in the Vulgate – and you know I’m no Catholic apologist.

          “…if the Spirit is merely a descriptor of God Himself…”

          What means you by this word ‘descriptor’? I don’t think we have to look very far to understand what the Spirit is, in the sense of spirit-infused Adam-kind – and I see no reason to make of it an Elohim. It is a constituent; albeit an essential, indispensable one.

          “if the men ( in Acts 19:2) were already theists of some stripe, how would they even make such a statement? it doesn’t really make any sense. i’d imagine they already knew what Scripture said about “God is Spirit.”

          Where does it say “God is a Spirit” but in the Gospel of John? Had that even been written at the time the conversation you reference took place?

          “…we, too, are triune beings – body, soul, and spirit.”

          Does this comply with Genesis 2:7?

          And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

          I don’t think that it does. And are we triune beings in the sense of all three parts being separate but equal, as Trinitarian doctrine stipulates? I don’t think that we are.

        • am123

          “if we are going to call the Spirit Truth, then we have to find a second witness to confirm it. Do you have a second witness?”

          Here’s a second, third, and fourth witness BEEF:

          “Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”
          — John 14:17

          “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me”
          — John 15:26

          “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
          — John 16:13

        • Mayhem

          You’re confusing prepositions with verbs, am123. The question is not spirit “of” truth but spirit “is” truth.

          Laying my cards on the table i think i’m monotheistic, as taught in Scripture, any thoughts on that Beef Supreme, StraightDopes?

        • GUNNY

          am123,

          (BEEF opens his mouth to speak, and someone else’s words emerge:)

          “You’re confusing prepositions with verbs, am123. The question is not spirit “of” truth but spirit “is” truth.”

          Yeah. What he said. Operative word being ‘OF.’ We don’t see THE Spirit referred to as THE Truth in any but one (tangentially) contaminated verse. It would make perfect sense, however, that the Spirit of Messiah (THE Truth) would be rightly called the Spirit OF Truth.

          Mayhem wrote:

          Laying my cards on the table i think i’m monotheistic, as taught in Scripture, any thoughts on that Beef Supreme, StraightDopes?”

          If you believe The Father is HE WHO IS, and you believe The Word is HE WHO IS…

          …how many is that?

          Answer – ONE

          (…this despite the distinction between The Father and The Word. They are not the same. But They are One.)

          Therefore, to believe that Messiah is YHWH does not conflict with the tenets of monotheism.

        • GUNNY

          EDIT TO ADD:

          This was poorly worded by me – I wrote:

          “…however, that the Spirit of Messiah (THE Truth) would be rightly called the Spirit OF Truth”

          To clarify: Messiah = THE Truth / His Spirit = the Spirit OF Truth.

        • StraightDopes

          sorry about the delayed reply, BEEF. i worded some thing poorly myself. when i referred to the passage in Acts, where the men say that they didn’t even know there was such a thing as the Holy Spirit, and indirectly referenced the verse about “God is spirit,” i meant to say that it was an obvious thing, not that they would be familiar with the verse. in other words, the men would have OBVIOUSLY known that God is spirit, which gives the whole exchange a different meaning. they knew God, they knew His Son. what they DIDN’T know of was the Holy Spirit. He must, therefore, be a separate “person” of the Trinity. are you saying that they didn’t know God was spirit? because that doesn’t really make too much sense.

        • BEEFUS SUPREME

          Every other beef post on this thread is the Phony, thieving dog that has stole MY avatar!
          BIN readers beware the liar and thief who has made itself a counterfeit of my name and avatar.
          The creature responsible for this contemptible deception has done so with the blessings of Before It’s News, who have done and will do nothing to prevent this violation of their own rules.
          ________________
          Only one of us will ever admit:
          Messiah Yehoshua is come in the flesh.

          And, I want my BEEF SUPREME BIN ID back from this vile usurper, a theif named falseotherjedbeefyboy!!!!!!

        • am123

          Interesting discussion fellas. I don’t want to sidetrack it except for a quick question.

          I have a theory about this topic under discussion, so I was wondering if you guys (BEEF(the real one), SD, Mayhem) could give a quick yes or no to a simple question, something which I believe greatly influences where one comes down on this matter of the personhood and Godhood of the Holy Spirit. My question revolves around these Scriptures:

          “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”
          —Luke 11:13

          “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
          — Acts 2:4

          “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”
          — Romans 8:26

          So my simple yes or no question is do you pray/speak in tongues?

          My theory is everyone who does pray in tongues definitely comes down on the side of yes, the Holy Spirit is a person, because he who speaks in tongues is animated, influenced by, and edified by the Holy Spirit and they know the Holy Spirit orchestrates things in their lives. And while it can be a topic in and of itself, I’m just interested in a quick yes or no to test my theory, which is everyone who does pray in tongues definitely believes (and I would even say “knows”) the Holy Spirit is a person.

          So I’m guessing BEEF is a no, Mayhem is a no, and SD is a maybe. For the record, I do pray in tongues and believe a discussion on this topic of the personhood of the Holy Spirit cannot be complete without at least touching upon this precious gift of the Holy Spirit.

        • am123

          BEEF,

          Regarding your “evil twin”, there is an interesting response from him where he actually takes off the mad man mask and gives us a little peek behind the curtain at him in this thread:

          /christian-news/2015/02/100-proof-everything-youve-been-told-about-the-location-of-the-third-temple-is-wrong-youll-be-floored-when-you-find-out-where-2509078.html

        • Mayhem

          Though much of my dribbling is incoherent no I don’t speak in tongues. Just one more thing you and I don’t agree on, am123.

        • am123

          Thanks for the honest response Mayhem.

        • GUNNY

          SD wrote:

          “He (the Holy Spirit) must, therefore, be a separate “person” of the Trinity.”

          Dopes, that’s the kind of unsound logic I always pounce on the atheists for trying to wield in debate. That’s a textbook example of a non-sequitur. It does not follow that because there is a Holy Spirit, that it must be a member of some Trinity.

          “…are you saying that they didn’t know God was spirit? because that doesn’t really make too much sense.”

          Nope. I was reacting to your implication. God is a Spirit. Here’s the thing: What does that mean? I strongly advocate for the view that none of us has even the foggiest idea of what it means to BE ‘spirit.’ That might be a separate argument, or it might not be. We’ll see.

          Because we’re friends, I’ll telegraph my next move for you: I’m going to try to turn your flank. My question for you is this:

          What did Messiah say shortly before He died on the cross.

          What is…

          Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

          ???

          am123 asked:

          “So my simple yes or no question is do you pray/speak in tongues?”

          I have never spoken in tongues. But here’s a hiccup in your theory…

          …I don’t necessarily deny the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

          But I deny the doctrine of the Trinity all day long.

          ‘Personhood’ of the Holy Spirit does nothing at all to prove Trinitarian doctrine.

        • GUNNY

          And am123… re your comment about the mask slipping,

          The liar was quoting something I wrote to you and Mayhem a while back. He made some minor changes, but the ‘tone’ was my own – not his.

          Just more thievery and deception coming an angry flea on some hell-hound’s hairy hind quarters.

          And you give it entirely too much credit.

        • am123

          “But here’s a hiccup in your theory…”

          My theory is those who speak/pray in tongues come down on the side of the personhood of the H.S. Those who don’t speak/pray in tongues can come down on either side for various reasons. In other words, you won’t find someone who speaks in tongues denying the personhood of the H.S., at least that is my theory.

        • GUNNY

          At this time we can neither confirm not deny the theory of personosity vis-à-vis tongues speakitude.

          Now for a word from our sponsors…

        • elijah

          Beef Supreme, I don’t mean butt in, but “Eli, Eli lama sabachthani, was Jesus, quoting Ps:22:1. Translates as ‘My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me’. He was actually teaching from the cross. Christ never referred to his father as “God”, always as ‘Father’. It was a reference to the psalm.

        • am123

          “Beef Supreme, I don’t mean butt in, but “Eli, Eli lama sabachthani, was Jesus, quoting Ps:22:1.”

          I bet BEEF didn’t know that :wink: :lol:

          …..OK…..that was uncalled for….I admit it :lol:

        • GUNNY

          Elijah wrote:

          “Beef Supreme, I don’t mean butt in, but “Eli, Eli lama sabachthani, was Jesus, quoting Ps:22:1. Translates as ‘My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me’.

          Butting in is never a problem, but you do see by my wording that I’ve asked StraightDopes a leading question, no? So be it. Let the conversation turn as it will.

          Again, you wrote:

          “He was actually teaching from the cross.”

          So Messiah was referencing the psalm? What was the psalm referencing? You seem to be stating that Messiah was actually preaching the Book from the cross. What gives you this idea? Why is it not rather that Messiah was speaking precisely what He felt at the moment, and that the psalm was in reference to and in prophecy of that particular event?

          “Christ never referred to his father as “God”, always as ‘Father’.”

          This is not so. Messiah referred to Himself as the Son of God no fewer than six times.

          am123:

          “I bet BEEF didn’t know that…”

          We need some Three Stooges sound-bites to go along with those emoticons. How about the Curly Chuckle…

        • am123

          “We need some Three Stooges sound-bites to go along with those emoticons. How about the Curly Chuckle”

          Ask and ye shall receive:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5j8Jioan1w

          :lol: :lol: :lol:

        • am123

          Speaking of speaking (no I didn’t stutter) in tongues, lo and behold, an article about it came out today. For anyone interested in more about speaking in tongues, including in the comments where I explain how I learned to come to speak in tongues, here you go:

          /christian-news/2015/02/speaking-in-tongues-medical-study-proves-holy-spirit-praying-2509242.html

          ….now, back to our regularly scheduled program:

        • elijah

          Beef Supreme, I think you said earlier, God the Father and God the Son are the same person. I don’t doubt God, in extremis, and I can’t believe Christ ever did either. You may ask how I know this, about myself. I’ve been in the situation twice.
          It was Christ’s own will, that he became THE blood sacrifice, that ended blood sacrifice. He and the Father are one.
          All was foreseen, and happened as the Lord planned.

          Psalm 22 tells it like it is for the “crucified man”, starting verse 14, “I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
          My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust.
          For dogs have compassed me; the assembly of the wicked; they pierced my hands and my feet..
          I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
          They part my garments, and cast lots for my vesture……..”

          And that was his lesson from the cross. Prophecy from a thousand years earlier. A reasonably, exact foretelling of His crucifixion. Down to the Roman guards casting lots for his vesture.

        • Mayhem

          Don’t mind me butting in, Elijah, but Psalm 22 is about King David’s troubles. Sure there is it’s parallel in Messiah’s sacrifice but i don’t get that it was written as prophecy. I rather think Messiah Yehoshua was referencing the forgiving of King David, if anything.

          Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? The question is, what does it mean? Not, how does your english translation have it? Can’t anybody understand plain engrish anymore?

          I’ll go out on a limb, again, and say that i crudely paraphrase this to read…

          Matthew 27:46 – “My God, my God, for what purpose do I remain?” Jesus.

          Psalm 22:1 – “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” David.

          … what say ya’ll?

        • GUNNY

          “I think you said earlier, God the Father and God the Son are the same person.”

          Elijah,

          This is where it becomes very important to use quotations. If I ever said that the Father and the Son are the same person, I would love it if someone could produce the quotation wherein I said it, as well as a link to the quoted source. I try to be as specific as I can be whenever discussing this ambiguous topic. So again, for the record: I believe that The Father is YHWH (He Who Is) and The Son is YHWH (He Who Is). But I believe They are unique and distinct Beings. I believe They are ONE, but They are NOT the same.

          “All was foreseen, and happened as the Lord planned.”

          This is bringing us nearer to my point. We know for a fact that Messiah is not equal with The Father – as no son is ever equal with his father. We know for a fact that there are some things about which Messiah is not privy. I am suggesting one other such thing here (with potential caveats) by my original question – in reference to Messiah’s own question to His Father from the cross.

          “And that was his lesson from the cross. Prophecy from a thousand years earlier.”

          Let’s be consistent here, Elijah. Shall we? If what you have quoted is prophecy, then what David wrote: “My God.., why hast thou forsaken me?” — is also a prophecy.

          “A reasonably, exact foretelling of His crucifixion. Down to the Roman guards casting lots for his vesture.”

          Mayhem might not agree with this assessment, but tend to agree. I would also add, King David was Messiah foreshadowed, probably more so than any other man in Scripture. But I think Mayhem’s quip about dancing around direct questions is right on target.

          So here’s one of those questions for Mayhem:

          How have you arrived at your paraphrase?

          “Matthew 27:46 – “My God, my God, for what purpose do I remain?” Jesus.”

          And we still need an answer from Mr. DOPES!!!

        • GUNNY

          BEEF wrote:

          “Mayhem might not agree with this assessment, but tend to agree…”

          should read: but BEEF tend to agree

          !!!

        • BEEFUS SUPREME

          This song is dedicated to one of the most vile and violent christo-CREEP leaders ON BIN, the counterfeit beef supreme!!!!
          :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz:
          Please sing the lyrics to the tune of
          Puff, The Magic Dragon, by Peter, Paul, and Mary.

          False BEEF, the magic dragon
          Puffed fire a lot
          But no more than produced
          By a regular human fart

          He thought that he was special
          Directly communicating with a mangod
          He believed every bit of the FALSE Tale
          And it affected his life a lot

          He condemned everybody
          Who did not follow his words
          And that is why False BEEF
          Is just a spiritual cowardly turd

          Oh, how meticulous (and bundled tight with your personal “obsessions”) you are beefjeddouchebag!
          As if anyone reads your bather between you and your other BIN character, May Fem, the fem blend of the “Other counterfeit” beefjedfoolsupremeidiot!!

        • GUNNY

          FYI Elijah and anyone else who doesn’t already know:

          The above antics were not posted by me. This simple child follows seekers after the Way and tries to annoy us all with endless Romper Room stupidity. It is actually easy to ignore, but you have to read around its postings because nothing it ever says is worth reading. Ever.

          It won’t go away if we ignore it, but there are many times when it misses important conversations – or finds them late, like this one.

        • Anonymous

          Matthew 12:30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. N.I.V………..and Jeremiah 9:4-10 :razz: :cry: :lol:

        • BEEFUS SUPREME

          Other counterfeit beef, the harbinger of DEMONIC Creatures, you are a dog!

          You, beefyjeddouchebagbozo, are a TRAITOR to the USA over your religious Insane DELUSIONS, which you spread like a herpes virus among susceptible BIN readers.

          NOW HEAR THIS beefyjeddouchebagbozo the TRAITOR TO GOD!

          Every time you post anything on this website, I personally am going to blow up the comment section by posting the video of your THUS SAYETH YAHWEH… “EFFF YOU.”

          YOU DISGUSTING LIAR.

          YOU HAVE NO FEAR OF YHWH.

          YOU ARE AN ENEMY OF THE TRUTH.

          YOU ARE AN ENEMY OF THE GOSPEL.

          YOU WILL REPENT AT ONCE OF THESE CRIMES:

          1. You have falsely and fraudulently usurped for yourself the office of a prophet of the Most High

          2. You have falsely and fraudulently put words of filth and vileness in the MOUTH of the Most High, when HE HAS NOT SPOKEN.

          You will repent of these crimes publicly, to the men and women of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. You will repent to the people of Messiah Yehoshua.

          Wherever you go on the internet, I will find you. I will resist you at every turn. You are in GROSS VIOLATION of the LAWS and the COMMANDMENTS of YHWH ELOHIM MOST HIGH.

          YOU TAKE HIS NAME IN VAIN. YOU ARE A FALSE PROPHET. YOU ARE A LIAR. YOU ARE A CRIMINAL.

          Thus sayeth your elder, I, THE Real BEEF SUPREME

          For your penance, SAY 10 times, beefyjeddouchebagbozo,

          “I have repented for Not believing THE Word of THE Real BEEF SUPREME!

          YOU WILL REPENT for saying THUS SAYETH YAHWEH when YHWH has NOT SPOKEN.

          YOU WILL REPENT FOR LYING to your brothers and sisters.

          You will repent for taking His Name in VAIN.

          So help me beefyjeddouchebagbozo the TRAITOR TO GOD, I will make following you my full-time job.

        • StraightDopes

          sorry about my delayed response; i had a lot going on yesterday.

          am123: no, i don’t speak in tongues – i view this phenomena in the modern church as sort of an “ecstatic utterance,” and i pretty much NEVER see the Scriptural admonition re: an interpreter obeyed (for what it’s worth). which, of course, isn’t to say that i don’t respect the faith of those who do, or view them as not genuine believers – far from it. my mother in law is such an example. i don’t think i know anyone with a faith as firm and sure as hers.

          our esteemed resident rehabilitation officer said:

          >Dopes, that’s the kind of unsound logic I always pounce on the atheists for trying to wield in debate.

          indeed! well, it would be, were i not assuming LOTS of other Scriptures without stating them outright. for instance, the verses about “..baptizing them in the NAME (singular) of the Father, Son, AND HOLY SPIRIT.” i would imagine that verse would read something like “in the SPIRIT of the Father and Son,” if your position were the correct one.

          as for the “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?,” it’s plain what Scripture SAYS it means. are you offering an alternative translation? i am interested because i only recently heard a man on shortwave radio claiming that this was an errant translation of Aramaic. i think he was arguing something to the effect that Jesus WASN’T forsaken by the Father while on the cross. but i am anxious to hear what you have to say, and how you feel it applies to our discussion on the personhood of the Holy Spirit.

        • StraightDopes

          imitation BEEF SUPREME said:

          >Other counterfeit beef,

          lol there you go, projecting your own actions onto others. you do this so often that it’s simply amazing. you don’t even see that you parade your own psychopathy each time you post.

        • BEEFUS SUPREME

          Thanks for your faith and belief in me straightdopes, to provide accurate answers to your questions about christianity!

          CHRISTIANITY
          This is just a sample. There is awesome revealing and shocking information in the book: http://tinyurl.com/7cz2cwv

          MATTHEW:
          * Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

          * Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

          * Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

          * Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. 11:20-24

          LUKE:
          * Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants “thrust down to hell” for not “receiving” his disciples. 10:10-15

          Christianity was based on previous myths:
          WHO WAS THIS?
          His birth in a grotto was attended by magi who followed a star from the East. They brought “gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh” and the newborn baby was adored by shepherds. ____, one of a trinity, stood on a rock, the emblem of the foundation of his religion, and was anointed with honey. After a last supper with Helios and 11 other companions, ____ was crucified on a cross, bound in linen, placed in a rock tomb and rose on the third day or around 25 March (the full moon at the spring equinox, a time now called Easter after the Babylonian goddess Ishtar). The fiery destruction of the universe was a major doctrine of ______ism-a time in which _____ promised to return in person to Earth and save deserving souls. Devotees of ____ partook in a sacred communion banquet of bread and wine.
          Archeologists have found as many as 718 monuments or statues of ____ at Ostia (near Rome-Author) and close to 300 in Rome. A ____ shrine was uncovered under St. Paul’s cathedral.____ was a god, a son of a god, born of a virgin on December 25.

          WHO WAS THIS?
          His name was Mithra, the messiah of the first kings of the Persian Empire around 400 B.C. (600 B.C. according to another source.)

          Statue of MITHRAS, ancient Persian god of light who was adopted into the Roman pantheon. Shown wearing the Phrygian cap. Louvre, Paris

          HOW CHRISTIANITY WAS INVENTED

          Emperor Constantine
          Christianity is a copycat religion created by Emperor Constantine (for political purposes) based upon a myth (The Persian savior god Mithra, crucified 600 B.C. ? 400 B.C.?), which was based on other similar myths, all the way back to Chrishna of India (a mythical god that some claim was “crucified” or violently died around 1200 B.C.). There were 16 mythical crucifixions before Christ. The belief in the crucifixion of Gods was prevalent in various oriental or heathen countries long prior to the reported crucifixion of Christ. Of the 16 crucifixions, most were born of a virgin and about half of them on December 25th.

          There were too many religions in Rome in 325 A.D. A Council was called in an endeavor to amalgamate the many religions of the Roman Empire into one. Christianity plagiarized older myths and legends historicized to suit the Roman Catholic Church while combining the numerous religions existing at the time (Krishna, Horus, Mithraism, Osirian, Isis, and many other mystery religions). For unity and to stop all the conflicts between the numerous religions,
          Christianity was INVENTED.

          Eusebius (Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine “Father of Church History“) attended the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. and was a friend of Emperor Constantine, who also attended, and who made the keynote speech.

          Bishop Eusebius

          Constantine instructed Eusebius to organize the compilation of a uniform collection of new writings developed from primary aspects of the religious texts submitted at the council. Eusebius has been described as follows: Jacob Burckhardt (19th century cultural historian) dismissed Eusebius as “the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity”. He has been also described as ” a political theologian”. He favored doctoring his history in his own words to “be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity”. Edward Gibbon (18th century historian –“The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”) dismissed his testimony on the number of martyrs and impugned his honesty. (To be clear on this matter, I say don’t trust Eusebius’s reports of the Apostles or how the Apostles died, and be suspicious of all of his writings – Author Samuel Butler)

          Eusebius then arranged for scribes to produce fifty sumptuous copies to be written onparchment in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable form, byprofessional scribes thoroughly accomplished in their art (ibid.).

          These orders, said Eusebius, were followed by the immediate execution of the work itself we sent him [Constantine] magnificently and elaborately bound volumes of three-fold and four-fold forms (Life of Constantine, vol. iv, p.36). They were the New Testimonies, and this is the first mention (c. 331) of the New Testament in the historical record. With his instructions fulfilled, Constantine then decreed that the New Testimonies would thereafter be called the word of the Roman Saviour God (Life of Constantine, vol. iii, p. 29) and official to all presbyters sermonising in the Roman Empire.

          He then ordered earlier presbyterial manuscripts and the records of the council burnt and declared that any man found concealing writings should be stricken off from his shoulders (beheaded).

          NONE OF THESE 50 NEW TESTAMENTS EXIST TODAY OR ARE ADMITTED TO EXISTING!

          THIS NEW TESTAMENT WAS THE OFFICIAL BOOK OF THE NEW UNIFIED RELIGION OF CONSTANTINE NOT THE BIBLE!

          ALL OTHER BOOKS TO BE BURNED ,THAT WOULD INCLUDE THE TORAH/OLD TESTAMENT
          IT INCLUDED BURNING THE GREAT LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA IN EGYPT 391 AD

          In 391 AD, Christian Emperor Theodosius I ordered the destruction of all pagan (“heathen” they were also called) temples. The Christian Patriarch Theophilus of
          Alexandria (Egypt) complied with this request. Seizing this opportunity, Theophilus exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt, the Serapeum also he showed full of extravagant superstitions, the commander-in-chief of the troops in Egypt, assisted Theophilus in demolishing the heathen temples then he destroyed the Serapeum. -Historia Ecclesiastica

          The Serapeum housed the Great Library of Alexandria.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_alexandria

          Why there are no records of Jesus Christ.

          It is not possible to find in any legitimate religious or historical writings compiled between the beginning of the first century and well into the fourth century any reference to Jesus Christ and the spectacular events that the Church says accompanied his life. This confirmation comes from Frederic Farrar (1831-1903) of Trinity

          College, Cambridge:
          “It is amazing that history has not embalmed for us even one certain or definite saying or circumstance in the life of the Saviour of mankind … there is no statement in all history that says anyone saw Jesus or talked with him. Nothing in history is more astonishing than the silence of contemporary writers about events relayed in the four Gospels.” (The Life of Christ, Frederic W. Farrar, Cassell, London, 1874)

          This situation arises from a conflict between history and New Testament narratives. Dr Tischendorf made this comment: “We must frankly admit that we have no source of information with respect to the life of Jesus Christ other than ecclesiastic writings assembled during the fourth century.” (Codex Sinaiticus, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, British Library, London)

          There is an explanation for those hundreds of years of silence: the construct of Christianity did not begin until after the first quarter of the fourth century, and that is why Pope Leo X (d. 1521) called Christ a “fable” (Cardinal Bembo: His Letters…, op. cit.), and later Pope Paul III expressed similar sentiments, saying that there was no valid document to demonstrate the existence of Christ. He confessed that Jesus never existed, adding that he was no other than the sun, adored in its Mithraic sect ..”

          My final conclusion, straightdpoes, Jesus NEVER existed, and I have been conned my whole life.

        • GUNNY

          SD wrote,

          “indeed! well, it would be, were i not assuming LOTS of other Scriptures without stating them outright. “…for instance, the verses about “..baptizing them in the NAME (singular) of the Father, Son, AND HOLY SPIRIT.””

          This strikes directly to the heart of the matter. Matthew 28:19, which you have just directly referenced – considering the fact that it is the only verse in Scripture which matches your description – would fail utterly if it were examined in a court of law. That’s because we can prove, to the exclusion of all reasonable doubt, that glossators changed the verse to reflect the Trinity. Here is how the original verse read, before it was corrupted:

          “Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations IN MY NAME”

          A fraction of the evidence for this conclusion can be found here:

          https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=original+Matthew+28:19+

          And I would add, once again, that we stand in need of confirming witness for ANY claim to baptize in ANY other name but Messiah’s Name alone. The corrupted version of Matthew 28:19 is the ONLY place in Scripture where we are instructed to baptize in some other name. Every other location in the Book makes it plain that we are to be baptized in Messiah’s Name only.

          “…i would imagine that verse would read something like “in the SPIRIT of the Father and Son,” if your position were the correct one.”

          There is no need for us to imagine how the verse should be read.

          “as for the “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?,” it’s plain what Scripture SAYS it means.”

          That is true, brother.

          “…are you offering an alternative translation?”

          Not at all.

          “i am interested because i only recently heard a man on shortwave radio claiming that this was an errant translation of Aramaic.”

          Generally, it is adherents of Trinitarian doctrine who advance the argument you describe. The reasons for this should become apparent – as I have emphatically indicated the direction I would like to take this line of thinking.

          “i think he was arguing something to the effect that Jesus WASN’T forsaken by the Father while on the cross.”

          Even without having heard the broadcast, I am confident that’s precisely what he was arguing. And because of it, I am confident the man was a Trinitarian.

          “but i am anxious to hear what you have to say, and how you feel it applies to our discussion on the personhood of the Holy Spirit.”

          Dopes, our discussion on the personhood of the Spirit is but a segment of the overall topic, which is the legitimacy of Trinitarian doctrine. In that light, here is my question to you:

          Was Messiah mistaken when He believed He had been forsaken by His God? Was Messiah only teaching from the cross, the way commenter Elijah would have it? Or could it not rather be that Messiah was neither mistaken nor merely teaching, but that it happened exactly as He said it did, which is exactly the way it is written? And if Messiah was in fact forsaken, no matter the duration of the forsaking, how can Trinitarian doctrine possibly hold water?

        • BEEFUS SUPREME

          What is the matter, FALSE other little beef?
          You do not care to debate me about your false FABLE?????????

          Figures, a “Spiritually cowardly TURD is what you are, other beefjedthepervertwholovesagodwithadick!

        • StraightDopes

          genuine, 100% U.S.D.A BEEF SUPREME said:

          >Generally, it is adherents of Trinitarian doctrine who advance the argument you describe. The reasons for this should become apparent

          hmmmm. maybe i’m a bit dense (in fact, i KNOW i’m a bit dense), but i don’t understand. i am a Trinitarian myself, and i see no need whatsoever to take it to mean anything other than what Scripture says it means – “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

          why is this some supposed problem for Trinitarians?

          as for my own belief on the subject, i see it as no contradiction to believe both in the Trinity, AND that Jesus was indeed forsaken on the cross. i am still not seeing why these should be irreconcilable propositions, try as i may.

          and why would it not be subject to the same criticism/objection (again, whatever that might be), assuming the “binitarian” position?

          forgive me if i seem intellectually lazy as of late – because that’s exactly how i feel, for whatever reason.

        • GUNNY

          “maybe i’m a bit dense (in fact, i KNOW i’m a bit dense)”

          It’s not our fault. We’re made out of dirt. (Nyuk nyuk nyuk)

          “but i don’t understand. i am a Trinitarian myself, and i see no need whatsoever to take it to mean anything other than what Scripture says it means – “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” why is this some supposed problem for Trinitarians?”

          Here’s why it is an (to use your term) irreconcilable problem for Trinitarians. Granted, I’ve encountered differences in various ‘versions’ of the doctrine, but the crux of Trinitarian teaching seems to agree on co-equality of the tripartite constituents. However, if one constituent (or ‘person’) can forsake the other two (or even one of the other two), then we have a clear violation of this concept of co-equality. The violation is further compounded when we consider Messiah’s own words, that He can do nothing apart from The Father. That would seem to indicate Messiah could NEVER forsake The Father. But The Father can forsake The Son – and The Father HAS forsaken The Son. This is inimical to Trinitarian teaching. Some Trinitarians (though certainly not all) have realized this, and have taken steps to argue that ‘forsake’ is an erroneous translation of the Aramaic, or that the Aramaic word contained in the Manuscripts is not the correct word. I’ve seen advocates of this idea go so far as to say that the Aramaic word for ‘forsaken’ can in no way be the correct word, purely owing to the fact that it conflicts so entirely with Trinitarian doctrine.

          “as for my own belief on the subject, i see it as no contradiction to believe both in the Trinity, AND that Jesus was indeed forsaken on the cross.”

          You may perhaps have to explain your personal interpretation of Trinitarian doctrine to me. If what you believe involves co-equality of the constituents, then you indeed have a problem on your hands.

          “and why would it not be subject to the same criticism/objection (again, whatever that might be), assuming the “binitarian” position?”

          ‘Forsaken’ blows apart any ‘binitarian’ position just as surely as it does the Trinitarian stance. There can be no co-equality between The Father and The Son. Scripture literally negates any such possibility.

          “forgive me if i seem intellectually lazy as of late – because that’s exactly how i feel, for whatever reason.”

          I would prescribe a few ounces of dried Trinidad Scorpion Peppers. Chew on one or two of those and you’ll be feeling something… it just won’t be laziness.

        • elijah

          The commentary about the trinity, sounds to me to be a type of “humanification”, if I can make up a word to fit. The mind and being of God is so far beyond what humans can understand, that these types of arguments are complete conjecture.
          Are we trying to make God in our own image? Looks like.

        • StraightDopes

          ahhhh – i see. then, we’ve come full circle. remember, i mentioned the tripartite nature of man (body, soul, and spirit) as a sort of indirect proof of God’s Tri-unity. that is to say, when Scripture speaks of us being “made in the image of God,” i think that is in no small part a means of saying that the ‘imago dei’ is a threefold unity. so, when you die to sin, or “deny thyself,” are you committing actual suicide? to take it even further, when you physically die, and depart your body, do you cease to exist?

          of course not.

          when a person dies, still in their sins, they are, in a very real sense, a “broken” person. instead of God allowing His Beloved to suffer that same fate, He “breaks” Himself, if only temporarily.

          by the way, if this is supposed to be some insurmountable challenge to either the Trinitarian or Binitarian position, then what do we make of the far more obvious objection of “if Jesus is God incarnate, then how could God die?” that would seem to be a much more obvious question along the same line of inquiry.

          again, none of these are unanswerable objections to my theological viewpoint, and i can say that sincerely and after (what i consider) careful consideration of them.

        • StraightDopes

          elijah:

          how interesting! i’d agree with you entirely. i was typing my response to BEEF without seeing what you must’ve been typing around the same time.

          keep in mind, one precedes the other – and one is a contingent image, a likeness, of a far more important, precedent, non-contingent reality. we are “like” God, but not *exactly like* God, nor could we be.

          i think elijah is right – we are putting the cart before the horse if we start with men, and then examine God in light of man. we’d do better to start with God, and recognize ourselves as contingent beings who are only *like* Him in our tri-unity.

        • GUNNY

          Elijah wrote:

          “The mind and being of God is so far beyond what humans can understand, that these types of arguments are complete conjecture.”

          I could not agree with you less. Many times in Scripture, we are adjured to SEEK after God and to KNOW Him. The entirety of both the written Word, not to mention the visible Creation itself, is geared toward teaching the sincere student and instructing the diligent seeker. Moreover, we are held accountable for our ignorance in the face of His Instruction to know Him. (The importance of that last sentence cannot be over-stated.)

          “Are we trying to make God in our own image? Looks like.”

          That is, I suggest, what Trinitarian doctrine presumes to do. Case-in-point:

          SD wrote:

          “remember, i mentioned the tripartite nature of man (body, soul, and spirit) as a sort of indirect proof of God’s Tri-unity. that is to say, when Scripture speaks of us being “made in the image of God,” i think that is in no small part a means of saying that the ‘imago dei’ is a threefold unity.”

          Is this not a clear example of attempting to make God in man’s image?

          “so, when you die to sin, or “deny thyself,” are you committing actual suicide?”

          I realize your question may have been a rhetorical one, but let’s define things plainly in the interest of clarity: Denying ourselves is in accordance with the Instruction of the Word. Self-murder is a violation of the Commandment. The two are nothing of a kind.

          “to take it even further, when you physically die, and depart your body, do you cease to exist? of course not.”

          Agreed.

          “when a person dies, still in their sins, they are, in a very real sense, a “broken” person. instead of God allowing His Beloved to suffer that same fate, He “breaks” Himself, if only temporarily.”

          I would ask for some further elaboration on this point. Are you saying this ‘breaking’ of His Self is the same thing as The Father forsaking The Son? Please expound.

          “by the way, if this is supposed to be some insurmountable challenge to either the Trinitarian or Binitarian position, then what do we make of the far more obvious objection of “if Jesus is God incarnate, then how could God die?” that would seem to be a much more obvious question along the same line of inquiry.”

          Are you asking me to defend the Trinitarian position? Hopefully not, as I stand against it. Messiah, The Word, is come (ἔρχομαι ‘elEluthota’) in the flesh. He took upon Himself the body of Adam-kind. Just as surely as that body had a beginning in that it was born, it also had an end in that it died. Messiah therefore ‘suffered’ death, but as you already mentioned above, you admit that the destruction of the visible body has no bearing on the continuance of the entity which animates that body. Messiah, The Word, therefore proceeded about His business as the Word of God after His bodily death just as surely as He went about that business prior to the event of earthly death.

          “again, none of these are unanswerable objections to my theological viewpoint, and i can say that sincerely and after (what i consider) careful consideration of them.”

          We’re just getting started with ‘forsaken’ brother. Please see to my questions above and provide the additional details if you will.

          “i think elijah is right – we are putting the cart before the horse if we start with men, and then examine God in light of man.”

          I am suggesting we examine a doctrine of men. I have nowhere suggested that we compare God to man.

          “we’d do better to start with God, and recognize ourselves as contingent beings who are only *like* Him in our tri-unity.”

          I would rather leave alone for the time being any ‘us’ or any tripartite quality we may or may not possess. I consider it to be a distraction from the topic at hand.

        • elijah

          REAL beef….I get it…..You seem to be saying that Jesus had no say, there, at the end. That things had gone farther than He could control, and near the end he asked his Father, why? Like he did not know why. He knew.
          I agree, that His ‘human’ earthly body was in pure agony, and his human Identification was definitely being “forsaken”. It always was his choice.
          I believe that Christ, at the point when he commended his spirit unto his Father, became a new “Man”. YHVH with first hand, subjective, working knowledge of Satan and the anti-christ spirit., The Messiah. Ever since, the devil has not been able to operate in total darkness. Today, we are able to see more of his deception…and it”s revelation is accelerating at an unbelievable rate.
          You and I may think that everyone can detect evil, for what it is. That apparently, is not the reality of this world.
          The destroyer will keep on seducing people into his death cult….he will use magic/religion to convince the whole world that ‘he’ is Christ.
          More info will be available tomorrow, I am sure.

        • GUNNY

          Elijah wrote:

          “I get it…..You seem to be saying that Jesus had no say, there, at the end.”

          Out of His own mouth: “I can of mine own self do nothing.”

          …and again:

          “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

          Elijah, you seem to be saying that Messiah had ‘a say’ at ANY time. Messiah Himself teaches us differently.

          Continuing, you wrote:

          “That things had gone farther than He could control…”

          This statement begs the question in light of the above.

          “…and near the end he asked his Father, why? Like he did not know why. He knew.”

          What did He know? Do we agree that there are things Messiah did not know when He Himself plainly teaches the opposite in Scripture?

          “I agree, that His ‘human’ earthly body was in pure agony, and his human Identification was definitely being “forsaken”. It always was his choice.”

          Choice is perhaps another topic. Perhaps. But what we have here is a DISTINCTION which must be made between the earthly physical suffering with which we are all, to some extent, familiar; versus the entirely ALIEN (to us) concept of being forsaken by The Father. I would suggest to you that the reason Messiah sweat blood in the garden is not because He was afraid of the beating He was about to receive at the hands of men – even though that beating was a thing of legends. I submit to you that He sweat blood because of what He KNEW must be enacted in order for the penalty He was absorbing for us to be completely absorbed. He HAD to be forsaken by The Father. I do not suggest that He was ignorant of the fact. I suggest that He had never before experienced the fact, and as He began to experience it, He cried out the way He did.

          “I believe that Christ, at the point when he commended his spirit unto his Father, became a new “Man”.”

          I would need more time to contemplate this statement, but my initial reaction is to disagree with it. Is there something in Scripture you can point to which supports this idea?

          “YHVH with first hand, subjective, working knowledge of Satan and the anti-christ spirit., The Messiah.”

          I am unsure of the meaning you intend to convey by this sentence.

          “Ever since, the devil has not been able to operate in total darkness. Today, we are able to see more of his deception…and it”s revelation is accelerating at an unbelievable rate.”

          Are you finding confirmation for this in Scripture? Or from some other source?

          “You and I may think that everyone can detect evil, for what it is. That apparently, is not the reality of this world.”

          I am well-acquainted with an almost universal failure of any human ability to discern true evil.

          “The destroyer will keep on seducing people into his death cult….he will use magic/religion to convince the whole world that ‘he’ is Christ.”

          On that point, you’ll get no argument from me.

        • GUNNY

          Yet another dud by BEEF:

          “Do we agree that there are things Messiah did not know when He Himself plainly teaches the opposite in Scripture?”

          Try this:

          Messiah tells us in Scripture there are things He does not know.

          (Keep it simple, stooooopid)

        • Mayhem

          “So here’s one of those questions for Mayhem: How have you arrived at your paraphrase?”

          Great question, Beef, and i relish this opportunity to explain myself. I arrive at my position as a result of applying, my given, intellect to subjects that interest me. I attempt robust due diligence and mostly would rather keep my mouth shut and only look the fool, however, i’m not a-feared about sometimes being wrong or admitting i don’t know stuff. Pointed questions not always necessary.

          But that’s not quite what you’re looking for, Beef, so here goes with the meat: I find support for my exegesis in the Lexicon.

          http://biblehub.com/lexicon/psalms/22-1.htm
          http://biblehub.com/lexicon/matthew/27-46.htm

          Thing is David never said, or wrote, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani” for he didn’t speak Greek. Matthew and Mark wrote those words by way of quoting Jesus who may have been speaking Hebrew for all we know. It is likely that neither of them were within hearing distance if, in fact, they were even present. Therefore they were, likely, quoting someone else who was quoting Jesus.

          Was this someone else the beloved apostle and/or John? I don’t know the answer to that but the point is, no one knows for a certainty. And if it was John it seems odd that he never quoted Jesus saying any such thing.

          I lean toward this understanding because i can’t imagine Jesus whingeing about the goings on. After all it was hardly a surprise given He told the lads about it, at dinner, the night before.

        • GUNNY

          “Thing is David never said, or wrote, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani” for he didn’t speak Greek.”

          That is true, but recall the New Testament authors quote the Old Testament in numerous instances.

          “Matthew and Mark wrote those words by way of quoting Jesus who may have been speaking Hebrew for all we know. It is likely that neither of them were within hearing distance if, in fact, they were even present. Therefore they were, likely, quoting someone else who was quoting Jesus.”

          Who were Matthew and Mark quoting? I would think the Apostle Paul has an answer to that question:

          2Timothy 3:16

          All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness…

          After studying the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, I feel confident in my conclusion that those Books are Scripture. This would mean that Mark and Matthew were ‘quoting’ the Spirit, as they were led, as they both wrote, whether or not they themselves were witnesses to events they described in writing.

          “Was this someone else the beloved apostle and/or John? I don’t know the answer to that but the point is, no one knows for a certainty. And if it was John it seems odd that he never quoted Jesus saying any such thing.”

          But you will recall that the Gospel of John is the ‘fourth-of-a-kind-but-different’ – a major example of a pattern that repeats throughout the Scriptures and throughout the visible created world. Many times in John, he gives an alternate view or describes events not addressed in Matthew, Mark and Luke. I’m sure you are aware that John is the ‘other’ Gospel with respect to the three so-called synoptic Gospels.

          “I lean toward this understanding because i can’t imagine Jesus whingeing about the goings on.”

          I think this testifies to the enormity of the affair. As I said above, I don’t believe Messiah made a sound about the world-class beating He knew was in store for Him. But I believe He began to experience His Father’s forsaking and was utterly shaken, having never experienced nor imagined anything like it before – despite being perfectly aware it was coming. It’s a bit like knowing a train-wreck is about to happen, but when it ACTUALLY happens… Two different things, and a very weak comparative analogy for something none of us can possibly imagine and hopefully never have to experience – being utterly cut off from all light, all life and all love.

          “After all it was hardly a surprise given He told the lads about it, at dinner, the night before.”

          Not a surprise. But knowing about a thing and actually experiencing the thing are rarely the same.

        • Mayhem

          It seems as though you are defending Scripture from attack, Beef Supreme, so I’ve obviously not been as clear as I should. It is the translation, into English, that I question and was merely showing that Jesus wasn’t directly quoted. Not in order to call the ‘synoptic’ gospels into question, no way and far from it. So then: Are we contesting “abandonment” versus “being left behind”? I don’t see the difference given “forsaken” can mean either.

          The question wasn’t about what Jesus said, shortly before He gave up the Spirit, but what He meant and how that applied to what David wrote. For the record Messiah was quoted accurately both here and in the book, no argument from me. I would add a measure of context by referencing the very next thing Jesus said, according to John, “It is finished”. What was finished? The purpose for which He remained, His ministry, His sacrifice, the perfect example and certain, limited, parts of the Law. Just because the NT writers often quoted the OT does it automatically follow that this is the case here?

          I don’t even begin to try to understand His sacrifice but I have seen it said that He did it for the clicks (er… renown) and that’s got to be about the most unreasonable thing I’ve ever heard. Also; your analogy is understood and point taken. Although it might not be fair to compare the Crucifixion to being beheaded for the Faith there’s every chance, that many more, believers will get the opportunity to find that out for themselves before it’s all done. Gulp!

          One last thing from an earlier post: The parallel between the lives of Jesus and David is obvious, again, no argument from me. I took that, unquestionably, as divine intent but hadn’t considered a foreshadowing. Much to think about and thank you for your input, Brother, I like how you make me think.

        • Mayhem

          @StraightDopes who said…

          “maybe i’m a bit dense (in fact, i KNOW i’m a bit dense)”

          … to which it was retorted…

          “It’s not our fault. We’re made out of dirt. (Nyuk nyuk nyuk)”

          … and to wit i lay claim to be equal measures of genius and idiot.

        • BEEF SUPREME

          Not that he has to – but he probably would anyway, just to wrap things up – respond to the end of this thread which has more-or-less concluded itself, but it seems our erstwhile non-vegetarian has been PREVENTED from further reply, yet again, due to further banishment at the hands of inner party members here at the Ministry of BIN.

          However, Le Boeuf En Exil has asked given me the following message to convey to our brethren above and abroad:

          As usual, a pleasure conversing with the fine men of The Body.

          And more than that, he did not say – probably on account of being pursued by invasive spirits, or even by his vituperative doppelganger.

    • Anonymous

      the art guy is just an empty repeater vessel

    • VomitO

      ephrata cloister

    • StraightDopes

      here are some quotes directly from The Watchtower Bible And Tract Society, informally known as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, prophesying the end of the world:

      1880 “We need not here repeat the evidences that the “seventh trump” began its sounding A.D., 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of “The times of the Gentiles,” A.D., 1914, and that it is the trouble of this “Great day,” which is here symbolically called the voice of the Archangel when he begins the deliverance of fleshly Israel. “At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince (Archangel) which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation.” Dan. xii. 1. Nor will we here, again present the conclusive Bible proof that our Lord came for his Bride in 1874, and has an unseen work as Reaper of the first-fruits of this Gospel Age. (Zion’s Watchtower November, 1880 p. 1)

      —————————————————————————-

      “It seems conclusive that the hour of Nominal Zion’s travail is fixed for the Passover of 1918. (See Rev. 3:14.) That will be 7 years prior to 1925. At that time there is every reason to believe the fallen angels will invade the minds of many of the Nominal Church people, driving them to exceedingly unwise conduct and leading to their destruction at the hands of the enraged masses, who will later be dragged to the same fate.” p.128, Studies in the Scriptures – The Finished Mystery.

      —————————————————————————

      1889 “Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the ‘battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God’s word.” (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, The Time Is At Hand, 1889 Ed., p. 101.

      ———————————————————————————

      1894 “Seventeen years ago people said, concerning the time features presented in Millennial Dawn, They seem reasonable in many respects, but surely no such radical changes could occur between now and the close of 1914: if you had proved that they would come about in a century or two, it would seem much more probable. What changes have since occurred, and what velocity is gained daily? ‘The old is quickly passing and the new is coming in.’ Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures-nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.” (Zion’s Watchtower, Can It Be Delayed until 1914? C. T. Russell July 15, 1894)

      —————————————————————————–

      these are just a few. to include them all is PROHIBITIVELY long. these are actual Watchtower quotes.

      again, if the JWs did NOT claim to be the “only true religion,” this actually wouldn’t be such an enormous problem for them. they could just say that they were overly anxious to see the Lord’s return, and their imaginations got the better of them. but they claim to be the “faithful and discreet slave” of God and God’s ONLY organization (and those of you JWs who ask us where the Bible mentions the word “Trinity,” keep in mind that we, too, could ask the same about “ORGANIZATION”) and God’s mouthpiece on Earth – so they condemn themselves as actual FALSE PROPHETS which are obviously NOT inspired by God.

      this is a very, VERY big deal!!!! it is FATAL to the entire belief system. they are deceiving millions of people.

    • truth seeker

      abnegative please don’t be offended by this; but when a group claims to be the prophet of God yet mistranslates the Bible, takes verses out of context, makes false prophecies, and misquotes authorities all to make its position valid, its credibility is lost. It cannot be from God.

      But you will never know that unless you “examine ALL things.” Unfortunately, as a Jehovah’s Witness, you are only encouraged to study what the Watchtower and Awake magazines tell you to study. That means you can’t really check up on its false prophecies on your own. Instead, you must trust what it tells you about its own false prophecies. In addition, you are instructed to not take any literature from “apostate Christendom.” This way, you will have far less opportunity to be challenged, something the Watchtower organization doesn’t want to happen.

      The Watchtower Magazine teaches by asking the questions and giving the answers. Sometimes it even uses a Bible reference (often out of context) to back up what it says. It all looks good and sounds good from your perspective, but it is a false method of study. The Watchtower organization tells you what to think and what to do; if you say that isn’t true and that the Watchtower Organization is God’s organization on earth, then you are simply repeating what the Watchtower tells you.

    • Omega Files

      You JW’s sure like to talk in circles.

      The magnificence! The glory!

    • la artiste

      StraightDopes, hello and thank you for your kind response. I will apologize first for my grammar and language skills as they are my weakest point. One reason I hate to write is that I am not good at it. Another is that typing is very difficult for me and slow also. Most people are brave behind the keyboard but not so brave in person. As a former Marine and someone of a larger and athletic stature I have personally witnessed this numerous times. As for my comment in parenthesis brainwashed and programmed, I was referring to the fact that all of us have had this happen to us from “cradle to grave”. Basically my personal opinion is that whatever financial status your family has achieved, whatever country you are from, whatever education level you have attained (or were handed), whatever hardships in life…etc will to a large degree will help to shape your personality traits to help you achieve whom you have become today. I was not as you may have thought from the way I wrote previously that I was insinuating that you or others that do believe in the Trinity teaching were brainwashed r programmed as an insult, which I didn’t mean it that way. The trinity teaching is obviously a teaching of many so called heathen and or false religions from long before the Birth of Jesus. Father, mother,and son worship abounded even before Christ. As far as the King James Bible I must say that 1) the witnesses used the KJV for decades before they published The New World Translation. 2) Erasmus was the So called latin/greek translator whom was a Catholic Monk or Minister of which his work was used to make the KJV. If you do research on this you will find that not only was there many mistakes(in the thousands) but many were spurious scripture meaning that theologians today will say that these spurious scriptures were changed to promote a bios teaching that was not in the original vernacular. If you look up the Athanasian Creed of the trinity it states that God the father and God the son and Gody the Holy Ghost are all equal in wisdom, age , knowledge and power. but Jesus says in John 14:28 that the Father is greater than him. and in John 1:18 he (Jesus) says that no one has seen God almighty at any time. So in this one small scriptural example from the plethora of others that I could cite show from Jesus Own words that he is not equal to his father,and since Jesus never lied I choose to believe him (since he is the only Man that has seen God and lived in in John1:18. in 1 Corinthians 15: 20-28 Jesus states that (in verse 24) he hands the kingdom to his (Jesus’) God and Father. Soooo if Jesus says that Yahweh or Jehovah is His God and Father, and Jesus prayed to HIM, then as a christian JW I choose to follow Jesus And pray To the same God and Father that Jesus did. The Textus Receptus was the text that the Followers of Erasmus and his writings which made the KJV used and many of the reasons they used that text instead of the Alexandrian text were eronious to say the least. I will state that one for the reasons (in my own opinion) is that the Alexandrian text was in Coptic. (so they didn’t like black egyptians) is my opinion. As far as these Watch Tower articles you bring up are all very old. Could you possibly recite som of the false teachings from some more recent articles like maybe in the last 40-50 years? The last five or ten? I doubt it. But If I wished to Spend a lot of time reciting false prophecies from Christendom I could..But if anyone in the world would like questions answered for themselves I encourage you to look up JW.org and use you copy of the Bible and have them answered there. It will be free. They don’t want your money or accolades. Good luck on your adventures in expanding your Knowledge!

      • StraightDopes

        hey there la artiste:

        first of all, i think you do very well with language – so there’s no need for you to feel self conscious about that at all. and i share your point of view on “internet tough guys.” i didn’t take your comments on Trinitarians as an insult, either – i just thought it was interesting that you chose that word to describe belief in the Trinity.

        yes, i’m aware that the WTBTS used the KJV before they came up with the NWT. i’m also aware that the KJV has some issues of its own in terms of mistranslations. i am not one of those KJV-Only folks, myself, and i know that ANY translation of Scripture is going to be open to criticism. that’s just the nature of translating a large work of literature from one language to another.

        as for false WT teachings from the last 40-50 years, i’m sure i can point you to quite a few – but that evades the point: if the WT is the “only true religion,” the “faithful and discreet slave,” and essentially God’s only “organization” on Earth, then when did it BECOME so, since you seem to concede that they have indeed taught false things in the past? whether that be any one of the repeated false dates of Armageddon, the fact that they built the “Beth Sarim” house for the patriarchs (who were supposed to return in 1925, and it was used as Rutherford’s luxurious vacation home), or the fact that they flip-flopped on things like organ transplants, they’ve certainly taught things that even the WT itself would now like to distance itself from. these are contrary stands. it is therefore impossible to believe that the organization is the “only true religion” and God’s mouthpiece on Earth. is the truth now subject to change? but you asked if there were any in more recent years. the answer is yes – yes, there HAVE been. baptism, for example: prior to 1955, one could be baptized by any other Christian group, and then convert to JW. after 1955, you needed to be baptized by the Watchtower. after 1985, they did away with that whole “in the NAME (singular, not plural) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” thing and started baptizing people in the Name of the Watchtower (!!!!)

        if you were asking me, though, if i could specifically name more false dates of the end of the world from the last few years, then no, i can’t. i think they finally learned their lesson sometime after 1975. but really, what does THIS prove??? merely that even the hard-headed repeat serial false prophets at the Governing Body have the good sense to cut their losses after the umptieth false prophecy comes to pass and is proven to be false. this is hardly some sort of accomplishment.

        as for the whole Divinity of Jesus issue, i’d STRONGLY suggest you check this out:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkjBSxm6_UE

        it’s a debate between James White and Greg Stafford. i mentioned Stafford in a comment above. he does a very good job of defending the JW belief system (although i obviously believe he’s very wrong). what i’d like you to take notice of is that, at the VERY least, i’m sure you’ll concede that the Trinitarian position is Scripturally VERY defensible, and maybe you could say ambiguous. THEN, i’d like you to consider what i said in another comment above – that, if Jesus is NOT God – is merely some “created being,” separate from God – then basically God murdered an innocent man/being/god (with a “little g”) for the sins of humanity – sins for which He was in no way guilty, and had no part in. this makes God a capricious MURDERER. there is simply no other way to see it. however, if i (and basically every other Christian church) am correct, then what God did is an indescribable demonstration of LOVE. it is GOD taking the penalty due to His Creation. this way, God remains both perfectly JUST (all sin is punished), AND perfectly MERCIFUL (the punishment is not carried out on those who deserve it). He pays for it HIMSELF – He does not foist it off on some created being that is NOT Him.

        also, does God change? i’m sure you’d say “no.” is God Love? i’m sure you’d say “yes.” ok, then before ANYTHING was created, Whom did God Love??????????

        that’s enough for now. i hope you’ll check out that debate.

    • MikeSavage

      If Jehovah’s Witnessesn were masonic, or satanic, then you would find proof of it in the Bible, since they ONLY believe in the Bible and nothing more or nothing less. God didn’t start masons, and God didn’t start Satanism, and therefore they’re not listed in the Bible. God’s people are not told, in the scriptures, to be masonic, or satanic, therefore, this article is totally false.

      • Lord Humungus

        You are speaking in concentric circles Mike Emery. Could be the fish…

        The bible speaks very clearly about the children of the Whore of Babylon. Your organization was birthed in the shadow of the pyramid. Your organizations false prophets used the Great Pyramid ITSELF instead of scripture to make their failed prophesies. I still have the little red book on my shelf. Want it? Your organization has tried to distance itself from it’s cult leaders and occult history… the very thing you charge all other churches with while looking like a brainwashed moron.

        Come out of her Savage you antichrist.

        • MikeSavage

          K.C.;
          And you know this from personal experience? Or, are you taking the word of other idiots such as yourself. You know NOTHING about God’s people at all. You refuse to do what God instructs, and therefore feel you must attack those who do. Pretty childish.

      • Crazy times

        MS …LOST in Translation.

        WHO did…. “John the Baptist”… prepare the way for?

        JE-HOVAH or JESUS ?

        In the NWT and Young’s Literal Translation….(YOUR acceptable so called Bible- Translations)

        NWT translation
        Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of Je-hovah, make straight in the desert a highway for OUR GOD.

        Young’s Literal Translation
        A voice is crying — in a wilderness — Prepare ye the way of Jehovah, Make straight in a desert a highway to OUR God.

        Young’s Literal Translation Below also
        John 1:23

        He said, ‘I am a voice of one crying in the wilderness: Make straight the way of the Lord, as said Isaiah the prophet.’

        Young’s Literal Translation
        John doth testify concerning him, and hath cried, saying, ‘This was he of whom I said, He who after me is coming, hath come before me, for he was before me;’

        This confirms Jon the Baptist is the one who crieth in the wilderness from you texts

        Context
        The Mission of John the Baptist
        …22Then they said to him, “Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” 23He said, “I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, ‘MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.

        So WHO CAME MS…… JE-HOVAH …..or JESUS ….=….OUR GOD

        every mouth WILL confess JESUS CHRIST is LORD…from your own messages to me,

        JE-HOVAH has been replaced with.. LORD….. in our “as it’s written” BIBLES

        As I said Mikey your Goose is cooked by your own acceptable translation …. BOOM BABY..!!!Say’s he’s a Christian…. but he’s CLEARLY… a Tare amongst the Wheat…

        Savage is an antichrist… MOUTHPIECE….. from the god of this world….REPENT and Believe that

        …. Jesus Christ IS LORD ..YHWH …Hallalu..YAH… not JEh

        • StraightDopes

          Crazy times:

          that’s actually an EXCELLENT question. i’ve never considered it before vis-a-vis the Watchtower/JWs.

          is there a JW in the house that wold like to take a crack at it?

          Mike Savage:

          OF COURSE God didn’t start the Freemasons. but the Watchtower was started by a man who seemed very tight with the Freemasons, and certainly wasn’t opposed to allowing Freemasonic influence into the WT. also, i didn’t know until i read the comments on this article that the JWs were trying to distance themselves from their founder. but that begs the question: WHEN did the WT BECOME “the only true religion”????????

        • MikeSavage

          Crazy Times;
          You’ve only proven one thing: That you can take things out of context and lie about their meaning. Oh, one more thing. That you haven’t a clue as to what any scripture means. So that’s two things.

        • GUNNY

          Savage, if you were a defense attorney, your clients would all be condemned and executed.

          (Even the ones charged only with motor vehicle violations.)

        • MikeSavage

          Well, you bunch of antichrist Christendom workers of evil and lawlessness, you disagree with God’s word, and therefore feel you must attack His people. So be it. It does only make you look completely stupid and ignorant. In this case, looks are not deceiving.

        • StraightDopes

          MikeSavage:

          in a word or two, could you answer the question about John the Baptist, though? Whom did he prepare the way for?

        • GUNNY

          Dopes,

          It is not within the Savage skill-set, willingness or ability, to answer such pointed and direct questions.

          It’s been a recurring theme here at this website for many years.

          By their fruits ye shall know them.

        • Lord Humungus

          Savage is dishonest and cannot account for his own behavior let alone the belief system he’s inherited.

          Ask him about his Emery account. Guy will ignore you.. or call you unstable.. or simply lie.

          Guess this is the best we can expect from a long suffering learned man of his religion.

          What a joker.

        • MikeSavage

          K.C.;
          You are drinking way too much coffee, or is it alcohol? You’ve reverted to the behavior of a 15 year old. Do you do this to everyone with whom you don’t agree? If so, you should not leave your house, and you should stay off the internet. You’re a menace.

        • Lord Humungus

          I wasn’t talking to you Emery/Savage therefore I don’t require your 2-step song and waffle retort.

          You’ve been caught in a lie after claiming to be a reliable witness to your own honesty.

          Until you can come clean about “Emery” then I will continue to label you as you are.

          “A stinky fish face and lying antichrist”

          Here is a link where you lied and called me unstable instead of addressing the direct charge as to your honesty.

          /christian-news/2015/02/jesus-was-an-essene-the-ancient-essenes-full-documentary-2508894.html

        • MikeSavage

          K.C.;
          And your comment, claiming I was caught in a lie, when I NEVER lie. Ever. And it’s coming from you, a pathological liar and antichrist. Funny.

        • Lord Humungus

          Maybe you can clear up something for me. Did you suffer carbon monoxide poisoning as a child or are you demon possessed? ( last I heard Belial had the specific odor of pickled fish )

          Actually I don’t care enough to keep this up you clown.

          You can’t defend yourself without deflecting and snowballing your lies and for all to see. Appreciate you doing it on the “JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES Are a Masonic, Satanic Cult” article.

          I bid you good evening.

          P.S. Get thee behind me Emery Savage

        • CrowPie

          “Ask him about his Emery account-Emery/Savage”

          I feel so bad…..I mixed him up with max a week or so ago. My memory is shot all to pieces.

        • StraightDopes

          WHOA THERE, Mike Savage:

          taking a brief break from contemplating my response to BEEF’s arguments against the Holy Spirit’s personhood to interject here:

          you’re actually claiming to NEVER lie??? i would hope you’d be honest enough to confess that you have, on occasion, lied – no matter how infrequently. i fully confess that i’ve lied before, though i now do my best to avoid telling lies, but i certainly wouldn’t bet on never telling another lie. at least i’m honest enough to confess that i’ve lied, and am, therefore, a liar. that’s the whole purpose of God’s Grace (a word, i understand, not frequently heard in the “witness halls” of the JWs). i take your denial of having lied to itself be a lie. it’s flat-out ridiculous. maybe JWs are expected to believe flatly absurd things, but the rest of us aren’t so gullible.

        • StraightDopes

          *witness hall, kingdom hall, hall of justice, the justice league… whatever it’s called

      • Crazy times

        “If Jehovah’s Witnessesn were masonic, or satanic, then you would find proof of it in the Bible”

        Pure deduction.. Dear Watson…(Sherlock homes)

        PROOF you ask :cool: … IF your Witnesses did NOT start Here.. your JW’s are SATANIC….Acts 1:8 …. when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and YOU WILL BE MY WITNESSES both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the REMOTEST part of the Earth.

        your… NWT & Young’s Literal Translation

        But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you,+ and you will be witnesses+ of me in Jerusalem,+ in all Ju·de′a and Sa·mar′i·a,+ and to the most distant part* of the earth.

        when the Holy Spirit has come upon you…OR UPON YOU……….THESE ARE THE TRUE WITNESSES…When did that HAPPEN ?……AT PENTECOST …at the INCEPTION OF THE CHURCH …NOT the CONgregation which YOU believe in your message to me as follows:

        “Christian congregation, that Jesus initiated the night before his death, is bizarre. I DON”T THINK ITS Bizzarre AT All, and neither did his disciples or apostles, his Father, or any of the true Christians throughout the millennia”.

        So we can deduce from ALL this the TRUE WITNESSES of GODS WORD are indwelt by the Holy Spirit aka Pentecost event, occurring up to today aka “born again”… According to you JW ‘s do NOT believe their CONgregation started here at Acts 1:8….

        don’t say Lost in Translation these are from your Text.

        Your CONgregation IS RECENT 1880-1900……… NOT FROM PENTECOST

        AWAKE from your deep Satanic Sleep…Mike Savage

    • Anonymous

      I’ve tried to watch this, repeatedly, but keep experiencing unusual disruptions and disconnects. Some of these movies are slick, or at least better than I could do. But, annotated highlights would be helpful.

    • Pix

      No religious person is who they claim to be, not a single one practices a single thing they preach. For example, the commandment, “thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour”. Broken by the author of this article, accusing other people of being Satanic and thus evil for not believing the exact same version of pagan plagirised mystery cult as themselves. Such people are violent rabble rousers constantly looking for a fight. Only people who ‘live and let live’ are true human beings, all else being false.

      • truthlovingsoul

        i do not consider myself to be “religious”, though was raised a strict roman catholic. i see that ALL religions are control mechanisms.
        i am trying to expose the hypocrisy found in all of them.
        if you consider exposing the truth to be rabble rousing, then yes, i am a rabble rouser.
        we can’t “live and let live” while criminals rule. it’s not the christian way or the way of anyone who has a heart and a mind.
        we can live and let live once we clean up the trash.
        jw, christian zionists and many other “religions” preach to not resist evil, turn the other cheek, love your enemies…….. these were input by our rulers to CONTROL US.
        WAKE TF UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • Pix

          “…we can’t “live and let live” while criminals rule. ”

          You are attacking JW’s for no good reason seeing as there are no JW’s ruling anyone. While I agree the JWs are irritating knocking on your door, they haven’t given you cause for you to attack them in such a way. So you are lying. You wake TF up. Wake up and smell the trail of violent rabble rousing hate crap you are spewing.

      • StraightDopes

        Pix said:

        >No religious person is who they claim to be, not a single one practices a single thing they preach.

        yes, Pix, that’s absolutely true. that’s exactly what all real Christians believe. you’ve hit the nail on the head.

        this is exactly the issue common to A-L-L mankind, whether “religious” or not. it’s called sin, though in atheist circles it might be called hypocrisy, inconsistency, or whatever. it is very much a fact that each of us fails to do what is right.

        that’s exactly the central thesis of Christianity. that’s why Jesus died.

        strangely enough, you seem to pretend that this is somehow not a trait that you possess yourself.

        that’s called “denying reality,” and is somewhat of a separate issue.

        • Pix

          Sin is 100% subjective to the modality of the age and place. Eg thou shalt not commit murder,… unless it’s state sanctioned murder.

          The Jesus story is plagiarised from the pagan mystery cults, Dionysus being the closest match.
          http://lost-history.com/mysteries.php

          I rarely comment on peoples faith, I usually just speak about the counter evidence with links to prove you are lying.

        • Pix

          “strangely enough, you seem to pretend that this is somehow not a trait that you possess yourself.”

          That is correct, I have no need to tell lies or pretend I’m better than all else. The truth leaves evidence, fairy stories do not. The only evidence that exists proves your faith is based on plagiarised mystery cults. That is a fact, not denying reality but accepting the evidence.

      • truthlovingsoul

        pix,
        the ones at the top of the jw are the same ones at the top of every other religion.
        i never said jws were evil, i said the institution itself was satanic, like all religions at the top.
        how can you claim the jws are exempt from corruption?

    • Anonymous

      Religion is man made, spirituality, God given.

      • MikeSavage

        True. And all such man made religions are false and are works of the flesh. They are called Babylon the Great.

        • Pix

          “True. And all such man made religions are false and are works of the flesh. They are called Babylon the Great.”

          Babylon the Great originates from your claimed lie. You are trying to have it both ways here. You can’t claim something is a lie and then use the lie to substantiate your claim. That’s moronic.

          :wink: :lol:

    • Crazy times

      StraightDopes…the reason we should not shy away from demonstrating the falsehood of Watchtower theology is that they’re teaching lies – and they’re lies that have bearing on the state of one’s soul and their relationship to their Creator. they also destroy families with their doctrine of “disfellowshipping.” i can’t think of too many things that are more evil than that.

      Were singing from the same page on this one, we must confront these LIES with the Word …absolutely correct.

      As for Mike Savage don’t expect any reasonable exegesis reply or ANYTHING close to it, surprising since he claims he’s been studying for 40 years, so he must be an Elder by now ?. He’s a hit and run sort of guy eg JESUS IS NOT GOD, God has NO (OWN) SON, NO God but JE-HOVAH…No Godhead, NO Rapture etc etc

      I called him out and found out he ” KNOWS NOTHING” due to his addiction to Satanic Mags; furthermore he’s wasted 40 years as he’s learned nothing… unbelievable …… I found in his Own NWT in 30 mins …PROOF of… OUR GOD… is JESUS CHRIST coming in the wilderness out of the desert….HallaluYAH

      NWT translation
      A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* the way of Jehovah!+ Make a straight highway+ through the desert for our God.+……….WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING FOR 40 YEARS !!!??? :oops:

      Mike stop savaging the WORD OF GOD which is doing SATAN’s work….your following the Father of ALL Lies.

      Accept that : JESUS CHRIST IS JE_HOVAH (LORD) …OUT of YOUR OWN.. NWT..11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord+ to the glory of God the Father.

      And put down that WITCH-TOWER Mags and STUDY GODS WORD “Just once” and You’ll AWAKEN from the DECEPTION that YOU allowed to happen…… to YOURSELF…!!?? bizarre

      JESUS would like to address your ATTITUDE… MS and DON”T HARDEN your HEART… your RECENT CONgregation….is mention here.
      Rev 3:18 and YOU DO NOT KNOW that you are wretched and miserable and poor and BLIND and NAKED…..

      Thou art wretched—Greek, “art the wretched one.”

      enuff said

      • Crazy times

        Dear JWS DO NOT Harden your Heart when you read in your OWN … NWT..text that.. “OUR GOD” is JESUS CHRIST coming to be baptized by Jon the Baptist ….Don’t waste 40 years going around this mountain like others ..REPENT and declare Jesus Christ is Lord (Jehovah)

        Remember God came to his Own and they DID NOT RECOGNISE HIM….FIRST to the JEWS

        NWT @ JW.ORG your TEXT………He is coming AGAIN …

        Rev 22 v12 “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to repay each one according to his work.+ 13 I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,*+ the first and the last, the beginning and the end

        Revelation 1 v8 “I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,”*+ says Jehovah* God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”+

        WHO is COMING AGAIN ??…..The ALMIGHTY….JESUS OR JEHOVAH ??

        JW’s LOOK at the previous verse closely….and those who pierced him

        Rev 1 v7 Look! He is coming with the clouds,+ and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.

        Those who PIERCED HIM…This can ONLY be JESUS “OUR GOD”… the coming ALMIGHTY.

        (First. appearing to the Jews…2000 years plus ago… then to the Jew/ Gentiles in Christ SOON,) then Jacobs Trouble (Great tribulation)

        Gentiles Don’t make the same mistake as the JEWS Recognize OUR GOD is the ALMIGHTY the One Whom they PIERCED……from YOUR JW NWT ONLINE Bible translation….Take a look for yourself.

        Don’t harden your Heart if you hear HIS VOICE.

    • Pix

      The only thing I have against the JW’s is their method of teaching. They knock on your door asking if you have an open mind, and then proceed to close it with prescribed answers to prescribed questions based on their version of plagiarised mystery cults. They are as dishonest as all other ‘religious’ folks, no more, no less, but they are no where near as violent. EG, They were the only religious group in WW2 Germany to end up in concentration camps for refusing to murder other people. Credit where it’s due.

    • truthlovingsoul

      i just posted a couple videos on speaking in tongues for you guys.

    • truthlovingsoul

      christianity, a roman creation.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g40Eck6gW7U

      you all could be arguing/discussing over nothing.

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