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EVIDENCE FROM JEWISH SOURCES THAT JESUS WAS BORN ON DEC. 25th

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EVIDENCE FROM JEWISH SOURCES THAT JESUS WAS BORN ON DEC. 25th

I found this intriguing statement from Alfred Edersheim, the Jewish historian, about a Jewish fast on the 9th of Tevet that is connected with the birth of Christ.

 There is no adequate reason for questioning the historical accuracy of this date (Dec. 25th)…a curious piece of evidence comes to us from a Jewish source. In the addition to the Megillath Taanith (ed. Warsh. p. 20 a), the 9th Tebheth is marked as a fast day, and it is added, that the reason for this is not stated. Now, Jewish chronologists have fixed on that day as that of Christ’s birth, and it is remarkable that, between the years 500 and 816 a.d. the 25th of December fell no less than twelve times on the 9th Tebheth. If the 9th Tebheth, or 25th December, was regarded as the birthday of Christ, we can understand the concealment about it. Comp. Zunz, Ritus d. Synag. Gottesd. p. 126.

THE REASON FOR THE FAST
The Jews believed that Jesus birth was a tragedy for their nation and so a fast was proclaimed for the 9th of Tevet which fell on Dec. 25th of the year of Christ’s birth.

VERIFICATION
I looked around for verification of this and here is what I found.

THIS IS FROM A JEWISH SITE
The other day I was reading an article that a good friend sent to me about the fast of the Ninth of Tevet. Although we don’t hold by it these days, according to Prof. Sid (Shnayer) Z. Leiman, “Scroll of Fasts: The Ninth of Tebeth,” Jewish Quarterly Review (n.s.) 74.2 (October 1983): 174-195, in the middle ages and earlier, Jewish communities would fast on the 9th and not on the 10th. Although this fact alone was pretty interesting, the reasoning and the contested and argued history of why this was decreed was truly amazing.One reason for the fast was to negatively commemorate the the birth of Yeshu (Jesus) and the begging of the Christian religion which had, especially in the Middle Ages, caused Jews so much pain and distress. As so many believe today, and far more people believed in Middle Ages, Yeshu was born on December 25. Today many historians put his birth date in the summer, but the decision to fast was based on the original assumption. It was figured out that December 25 in the year of his birth matched up with the Ninth of Tevet, thus the fast.

Comments
“Now according to Jewish tradition, Jesus was born on the ninth of Teveth: that is, the day before these strange ceremonies were performed.”
“We can find confirmation of this unusual custom in a Christian work of the latter half of the sixth century. In Antonini Placentini Itinerarium, par. 30 (Gildemeister edition p. 21), we read that the Jews assembled, burned incense, lit candles and exchanged gifts on the first day after the birthday of Jesus.
http://jewneric.com/2007/12/the-fast-of-the-ninth-of-tevet/

FROM A BOOK ABOUT JEWISH HISTORY

“Ashkenazim and Sephardim” by Hirsh Jakob Zimmels
“in the early Middle Ages the Jews in the Byzantine Empire fasted on the 9th of Tebet in connection with Christmas. Among the fast-days enumerated in a list dating from Geonic times (589-1038 AD) the 9th of Tebet is also mentioned with the following remark: ‘our teachers did not write the reason for it.’ Most probably this fast was on account of the birth of Jesus which took place on that day.”
https://books.google.com/books?id=Svzf3uUCFToC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=9th+Tebet+fast+how+old&source=bl&ots=bOWl3ii7d8&sig=VrzaE1fPGwwWXdf8jv0hZrnzp94&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7r2XVPTnHYSxsATzxILQAQ&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=9th%20Tebet%20fast%20how%20old&f=false

ANOTHER SOURCE
19th century Jewish Wissenschaft scholars (Zunz, Rapoport, et al) point to Spanish philosopher & astronomer Avraham bar Chiya (d. 1136) whose work – although written in 1122 – was first published in 1851. He states that the founder of Christianity was born on December 25, and calculated that this date in the year in which he was born fell on the 9th of Tevet! The scholars thus state that the fast commemorates the birthday of Yeshu, and the rabbis chose not to reveal the reason for the fast as a matter of prudence.
http://frumheretic.blogspot.com/2009/01/fast-of-9th-of-tevet.html

 

 

 

Mike Clinton, Hiawassee, Ga. Dec 25, 2014



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    Total 91 comments
    • ghostlea

      Hearsay is still hearsay,now that is truth. Not even the people in the bible were around when Jesus was born or died,
      So again nothing but heapleasplease speak of facts not hearsay.!!!??

      • LifeIs

        ghostlea people in the Bible WERE around when Jesus was born and died.

        The gospel of John is an eyewitness account of Jesus’ ministry. And it should be obvious from the text itself, it was written by Mary Magdalene.

        Notice the straightforward, un-embellished account of Jesus’ arrest, his two (and only two) trials,
        crucifixion and resurrection.

        Notice that Paul was acquainted with people who knew Jesus.

        Notice two letters from Peter.

        Notice the other gospels, written after the fact but within living memory. It would be like me writing about the Vietnam War.

    • Mayhem

      Not really evidence, Mike, just opinion.

    • Mike Clinton

      “Brethren, keep diligently feast-days, and truly in the first place the day of Christ’s birth.” -Clement of Rome, 98 A.D.

      • am123

        For me, the important thing is that the event happened, not so much on which the particular day it happened. But nevertheless, the link you provide is interesting Mike as it refutes many of the objections many on BIN raise, like Truthseeker and yes2truth (or yes2bloviating as I like to call him). It should be interesting if they chime in.

        The bottom line is, unto us, in the city of David, a Savior was born…….Merry Christmas Mike!

        • Mike Clinton

          am123, always good to see your comments. I have a lot more about this and maybe I can have it all together next Christmas. I think the evidence is in favor of Dec. 25th. The Christmas bashers are desperate to claim otherwise because if He was actually born on Dec. 25th they have no argument. By the way, did you know that about half the quotes used by the Christmas bashers comes from Herbert W. Armstrong the cult leader and child molester?

        • am123

          No, I didn’t know that Mike. But it is not surprising. Much (not all) of the objections seem legalistic and cultish in nature.

        • am123

          “if He was actually born on Dec. 25th they have no argument.”

          Oh I’m sure TS would come up with an argument or two Mike, something related to feasts I bet! :wink:
          :lol:

        • Mayhem

          If the event was important enough to celebrate annually, am123, wouldn’t we have been told about it? You try to tell folk how little it matters despite Beef Supreme’s argument that following other god’s is expressly forbidden?

        • am123

          The event was important enough for the angels to celebrate it:

          10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

          11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

          12And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

          13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

          14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

          —Luke 2:10-14

          Where does it say we shouldn’t be celebrating this same thing the angels celebrated? Does the Most High look down upon those who celebrate this same thing the angels celebrated? I celebrate the Birth and resurrection of Jesus every day and yeah, including December 25th.

          As to BEEF’s argument about following other gods, for me that is irrelevant because I am not following other gods. The names of these other gods you are alluding to have never even been uttered by my lips. I never even had heard of them before seeing them mentioned in some of these threads on BIN. So are you saying I am following one of these other gods of which I know nothing about?

          In this thread here…

          /spirit/2014/12/how-the-christmas-event-went-down-some-2000-years-ago-2490788.html

          …I told you I didn’t judge you for your beliefs on this, but if you are judging me for this, then that is a bed you will have to lie in. God judges by looking into the heart. He knows whom I serve and who has my heart. If you want to make the judgment that my heart lies elsewhere, in gods I know nothing about, then my conscience is clear and I am content to let it play out on Judgment Day as it is right now. You will have to make your case on Judgment Day and not I. I don’t know what holidays are celebrated in New Zealand, but if you have celebrated any of them and they have some pagan backgrounds, even if you know nothing about them, then you will have to defend yourself about that because of the judgment you are raising against me.

          This legalism leads to silly semantics. Are not the months and days of our calendar based on pagan deities and whatnot? I assume you keep dates and appointments using these pagan-related months and days. So because you say I am guilty of following other gods of which I know nothing about just because I celebrate something on a particular day, then are you not condemning yourself when using months and days for anything? You are opening a can of worms for yourself.

        • Mayhem

          We are discussing celebrating the birthday of Yehoshua and not the birth date, am123. You have provided Scripture showing that the event was very important but none that shows we are to continue the tradition. Beef Supreme made the argument that we are expressly told not to set up our own celebrations, outside of the instructions given. The position was fully supported by chapter and verse but you may put it to the side if you wish.

          My objection, to celebrating Christmas, is less theological than it is philosophical. The capitalistic commercial construct is also the least of my worries. The problem, in a nut shell, is teaching the children that lying is okay so long as everyone is doing it. Suppressing what our hearts and minds tell us and going along with the status quo in order to get along. Everyone who celebrates this sun renewal festival is complicit in perpetuating one of the most pervasive hoaxes known to us.

    • Mike Clinton

      Mayhem, Well, you did not know about it until now.

    • Mayhem

      The simple truth is that we don’t know the date of Messiah’s birth for we are not told. Having said that we do have some evidence for when it may have been but more on that in a moment.

      First: Mike Clinton puts forward the traditional Rabbinic oratory on the matter. Put another way this is the Talmudic opinion and ya’ll know what i think about those miscreants.

      Now then: i’m not at all certain why Clements opinion is considered valuable when one considers that he doesn’t indicate the date of birth. Especially in light of Tertullian, Irenaeus or Origen failing to corroborate Clements assertion.

      But all that aside: if we look only to Scripture we find the best evidence leads us to a September/October birth, probably during the feast of tabernacles (sukkot). The reader is faced with adhering to the opinion of men or accepting the Biblical evidence.

      • messengermark

        Mayhem
        I’ll take Gods word over man’s , we have the course of Abia 6 months into the womb of Elizabeth John leaps in his mother’s womb when Mary see’s Elizabeth, Mary conceived around Christmas. Now for every believer we know God created the heavens and the earth. Just take a watch on YouTube The Star of Bethlehem

        • Mike Clinton

          Sorry Mahem and messengermark, the text does not say when Elizabeth’s conception occurred, it was sometime after Zechariah’s course was over. If her conception was three months later then, by your own calculations, He would have been born in December. It is all speculation.

          Save your breath, I have seen it a hundred times with almost as many conclusions. I could show you many who use the very same method to prove the Dec. 25th date.

        • max jones

          …Mike….i’ve had it written down…the pregnancy of Elisabeth. I will find it…I’m busy right :cool: :cool:

        • LifeIs

          Mike Clinton the whole point of mentioning the course is to date the event.

          “23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house.

          24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived….”

          You don’t give the time of year (the course of Abijah) and then skip ahead 3 months. That’s ridiculous.

          And we are told the sheep are in the fields. That would be after the harvest.

          ANYWAY, the Catholic Church had already picked December 25, by the time these Jewish sources did.

          And by the 16th century they had begun to call Christmas Eve “Nittel Nacht ”

          And it’s not because Christians did anything to them. They were murdering and torturing Christians
          from the start.

        • LifeIs

          And Happy St. Stephens Day.

        • yes2truth

          @ Mike Clinton

          You said:

          “Save your breath, I have seen it a hundred times with almost as many conclusions. I could show you many who use the very same method to prove the Dec. 25th date.”

          You’re full of nonsense and you’re a liar because you haven’t seen MANY at all proving the 25th of December, all you have seen is a few liars like you writing lying Jew or lying Papist crap.

          You said:

          “Sorry Mahem and messengermark, the text does not say when Elizabeth’s conception occurred, it was sometime after Zechariah’s course was over. If her conception was three months later then, by your own calculations, He would have been born in December. It is all speculation.”

          Yes it does say when Elizabeth’s conception occurred:

          Luke 1:23-24 (KJV) And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house. 24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,

          As soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished and after those same days Elizabeth conceived. Elizabeth conceived as soon as his days of ministration were over – period.

          Furthermore, the sounding of trumpets occured in heaven at His birth and the annual Feast of Trumpets is in September, not December. The trumpets will sound again when He returns to this earth to rule.

          The shepherds were NEVER in the fields by night in December in Judea – too cold and wet.

        • Mike Clinton

          Yes2truth, your ignorance is showing. The word “soon” is not even in the Greek text. Compare the way it is translated in other versions or try looking it up. You should do this before you post, it would not be so embarrassing to you, but you are probably used to being humiliated.

          :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

        • am123

          yes2bloviating said:

          “Elizabeth conceived as soon as his days of ministration were over – period.”

          Not quite. What happened “as soon as his days of ministration were over” was Zacharias departed to his house:

          23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house.

          24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived
          —Luke 1:23-24

          Then AFTER those days, Elisabeth conceived. One can only speculate on the time period meant by “after those days”.

          “The shepherds were NEVER in the fields by night in December in Judea – too cold and wet.”

          So I guess the sheep were left to tend by themselves huh? :wink: :lol:

        • yes2truth

          @ The Judaiser Pharisee Mike and the know-nothing numb skull idiot AM 123.

          Proper little Pharisee illegitimate aren’t you Mike with your sons of the Devil, Canaanite Jew (Tare) sources?

          And par excellance at gnat straining. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

          I bet you can swallow a camel and it doesn’t even touch the sides. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

          The only days in question are his days of service and when they were accomplished he returned home. In the next verse it firms up that Truth by saying: ‘after those days’ (of service)

          Now if you two morons are READING EXTRA DAYS INTO IT then you’re the liars, dissemblers and deceivers and old Mike being a buddy of those Canaanite Jew boys that comes as no surprise to me. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

        • max jones

          ….yes2truth….i commend you sir, I don’t interact with common sense much, here on bin…especially the ‘Spirituality’ discussions…there’s just not much common sense at work with scripture study, any more. There are a ton of scripture lawyers out there though. The kind of fellows you just wouldn’t want doing your translations for you.
          ….!500 word posts, with cut and paste from the KjV…I don’t read most of em.
          ….Its like this…trying to explain mother Eve’s ‘fraternal’ twins. Using Adam’s geneology, and the Kenite ties to Satan…synagogue of Satan…and Cain the first murderer, and the fact they came of age at the same time….without using the Hebrew to show, that Eve was “completely seduced”, by the serpent, in the garden, and her first born was Satan’s son…in the flesh…..I’ve been thrown out of bible study, for documenting that Cain was the son of Satan…Common sense. To have common sense, you would need to be, firstly, common…and also have sense….smart…and creative. Its the ‘creative’ part of that is anathema to ‘scripture lawyers’. :cool:

      • Mayhem

        I accepted that an argument based solely on what is written in Scripture does not give a definitive answer but that anyone should, therefore, accept the opinions of men is preposterous.

        All I know is that Mary’s pregnancy over lapped with the pregnancy of Elizabeth, that the Shepherds tended flocks and that the Inn was full, probably down to Sukkot being on at the same time.

        • max jones

          …hey , guys….Its my choice to celebrate Jesus conception on Christmas. I like it, better that day, gives my pro-life sentiments that bit of a boost, doncha know…..i don’t think it will be held against anybody, either way…..heard today, John the baptist, was infused with the Holy Spirit, straight from Jesus’s spirit in Mary’s womb, at this meeting. It ended up with thousands of acolytes, and it cost John his head. :cool:

        • Bill Lyle

          Hold on a second. If Mary conceived around December 25, and Christ was born on December 25, either Mary had the longest or shortest gestation period in human history. Which one is it? Or was Jesus’ (or whatever you want to call him) growth accellerated, allowing him to be conceived as a full grown new-born in under a month?
          I know I’m using the Catholic calendar, but bear with me.
          If we are to assume that the Feast of the Immaculate Conception (6 December) is, in fact the date on which Mary was empregnated, that would indicate that Christ went from zygote to new-born child in 19 days. It’s either that, or Mary was pregnant for 12 months and 19 days. No wonder Joseph worked so much. No man can handle hormonal Jewish mother for a full year.
          If there’s imperical, hard evidence to support the actual birth date of Christ, that DOESN’T involve belief in yet another religious text, I’m all ears…..

        • Mayhem

          Challenge accepted. Evidence for Jesus other than the ancient manuscripts of Scripture, although i don’t know why they wouldn’t count…

          Tacitus: a 1st century Historian considered to be one of the most accurate.
          Josephus: arguably the most famous Jewish Historian.
          Julius Africanus: quoting the historian Thallus.
          Pliny the Younger:
          Lucian:
          Mara Bar-Serapion:

          … in fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources.

        • Mayhem

          And to be fair: the Romans made a bit of a mess of the spot where Jesus stood 1944 years ago. Otherwise we might still have Joseph’s initials scratched on the manger lintel.

        • max jones

          ….onetruth….Yeah conception December 25….9 months makes his day of birth September 25 , or there abouts….there’s a lot of real proof, again… you gotta get into the original languages. And of course…common sense is probably necessary. I’m not interested in proving anything to you. Whatever you want to believe is your business….you’re actually more religious, in your lack of faith, than I than i am “about” my faith. :cool:

    • BEEF SUPREME

      QUESTION: Is it a fact that several pagan myths record December 25th (* or the pre-Gregorian calendar equivalent) as the very important date of birth/re-birth for their central god?

      ANSWER: Yes, it is a demonstrable fact that December 25th (*) serves in this purpose in more than one instance.

      Deuteronomy 12:30

      Take heed to thyself that thou be not SNARED by following them (the heathen nations and their particular practices for worship)…

      …and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, how did these nations serve their gods? Even so WILL I DO LIKEWISE.

      THOU SHALT NOT do so unto the LORD thy God: For every abomination to the LORD, which He HATETH, have they done unto their gods…

      MOREOVER: Whether or not the Most High is describing a ‘Christmas Tree’ in Jeremiah 10:3-4, we all must judge for ourselves. Clearly-worded verses like this will leave very little room for excuse In That Day. Accordingly:

      Deuteronomy 7:26

      Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt UTTERLY DETEST IT, and thou shalt UTTERLY ABHOR IT; for it is a cursed thing.

      HEAR THE WORD which the LORD speaketh unto you…

      Learn not the way of the heathen.

      FACT: None of the commanded feasts, festivals, or appointed times from Scripture EVER coincided with any part of the schedules of any pagan festival days. Can this be attributable to coincidence?

      Would there be a newly ordained festival, an appointed time according to the Word, which coincides with a very important pagan festival day, but does not coincide with anything on the recorded Calendar of the LORD as it is written in Scripture?

      • max jones

        …I’ve heard God called a “great fir tree.” :cool:

        • Mike Clinton

          Max Jones: “Trees have symbolic meaning in many cultures, including Judaism.

          At the birth of a girl, a cypress (or other evergreen) tree is planted, and at the birth of a boy a cedar tree is planted.” Babylonian Talmud, Gittin 57a

        • max jones

          ….Talmud is Satanic. One important source of black magic. :cool:

        • Omega Files

          …shaking my head…

          Clinton, you just shot down your argument by quoting the Talmud. The Talmud is antithetical to Scripture. How do you go about explaining this interchangeability?

      • Mike Clinton

        Beef Supreme, there were over 130 pagan feasts in Rome, pick a day, there was probably a pagan feast on it. Easter fell on Passover.

        Now, which Dec. 25th feast corresponds to Christmas?

        • BEEF SUPREME

          “Easter fell on Passover.”

          What does that mean, Mike? Do you have something to show that any Easter observance coincided with the VALID Passover? Please do recall that the scripturally valid Calendar has nothing in common with the Roman Gregorian calendar. There is no valid connection between Passover and Easter. Easter is named for a pagan fertility goddess and it is a moveable feast which does not correspond to ANY particular date on either of the calendars in question. How is that you claim Easter ever fell on Passover? [Do not mistake the calendar of the rabbis for the scripturally valid Calendar of the Most High. Like most things the rabbis do, their calendar is an inversion of the Instructions found in the written Word.]

          “Now, which Dec. 25th feast corresponds to Christmas?”

          Did you see Pix’s comment below? For the record, the only thing in that particular comment from Pix to which I object is the second to last sentence: specifically – I agree with Scripture that the Pharisees existed well prior to 70 AD. Everything else Pix said, IN THIS CASE, is, I believe, right on the money. All of the death and rebirth narratives for the pagan deities named in my above comment (in addition to many others) were celebrated in connection with the Sun’s apparent ‘death’ – ‘burial’ – and ‘rebirth’ on December 25th of each year, as viewed from the northern hemisphere. This is the phenomen(on) to which Pix refers below – and about which Pix regularly posts commentary. The rebirth of the DYING GOD is celebrated in connection with the apparent rebirth of the Sun. This happens on December 25th. And this date has been an important date in many pagan mythological narratives for much longer than 2000 years. I am certain you have seen the attacks on Scripture, the Gospels in particular, which claim that the Gospels are based on plagiarized material from older pagan sources. The coincidence of Christmas with earlier pagan festival dates is very often listed first among the examples given by advocates of the false charge that the Gospel accounts were plagiarized. The date belongs to the pagans. Provably so. Fortunately for believers in the Word, the date has nothing to do with Scripture, so the ‘plagiarism’ antagonists are out of gas with respect to that point.

        • LifeIs

          BEEF SUPREME remember why Jesus was in Jerusalem? To celebrate Passover. After the Seder, he was arrested.

          Remember the Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar.

          And to get Easter near Passover, we have to go by the Moon. Which we do.

          “In 325CE the Council of Nicaea established that Easter would be held on the first Sunday after the first full moon occurring on or after the vernal equinox. From that point forward, the Easter date depended on the ecclesiastical approximation of March 21 for the vernal equinox.

          Easter is delayed by 1 week if the full moon is on Sunday…”

          http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/determining-easter-date.html

          Easter is NOT a date on the Gregorian calendar.

        • Mike Clinton

          Beef, you said ” FACT: None of the commanded feasts, festivals, or appointed times from Scripture EVER coincided with any part of the schedules of any pagan festival days”

          I said: “Easter fell on Passover.”

          About Dec. 25th: in your usual style, you go into a not too coherent rant about the winter solstice which began on Dec. 17 and was later extended to Dec. 23. but did not fall on Dec. 25th in Rome.

          This will be my last reply for you but feel free to rant on.

        • Mike Clinton

          There is no record of the celebration of Sol Invictus on Dec. 25th before AD 354 and even then it was just called “Invictus”. As you can see from the timeline above Dec. 25th was already being celebrated as Christ’s birth well before this. Dec. 25th did explicitly become the “Birthday of the Unconquered Son” under the Christ hating Emperor Julian the Apostate. (361-363) An apostate, who hated Christ, made Dec. 25th. a pagan holiday. Wonder why???

        • BEEF SUPREME

          “I said: “Easter fell on Passover.””

          Excellent, Mike. I asked you to show your meaning. In Mike Clinton land, I guess that can be understood to mean repeating yourself. Easter never fell on the legitimate Passover, the Passover according to the ONLY valid scriptural calendar, which is the one ‘Calendar’ of the Most High. Easter does not correspond with a set date on the Gregorian calendar. It corresponds with Sunday and the Moon. The actual Passover is ONLY on the 14th day of the first month of the scriptural Calendar. Ever. And the scripturally valid Calendar had nothing to do with Sunday, or any other pagan-themed day from the Gregorian system. If Easter ever coincided with the true Passover, it was only by accident and could only happen once in a great many years, if it ever happened at all, which is doubtful. These are demonstrable facts. In response to these facts you have now, twice, provided a statement by you backed by nothing – not even an elaboration. Your statement is rejected on the grounds that it is backed by nothing but your assertion and the fact that it is wrong.

          “About Dec. 25th: in your usual style, you go into a not too coherent rant about the winter solstice which began on Dec. 17 and was later extended to Dec. 23. but did not fall on Dec. 25th in Rome.”

          By writing the above mis-statement, you again well-demonstrate the dishonest, or at least incompetent, character of your research capabilities. And again, rather than stand tall and meet dissenting views head-on, you have already indicated your desire to quit. Here are a few more inconvenient facts for you; do with them as you will:

          The Ancient Mysteries ALL celebrate a central figure, a god, reducible in all instances to a solar deity. In all cases, the features and characteristics of the Sun, in conjunction with various zodiacal signs, were first spun into mythological tales and then woven into rituals to worship and honor the sun-god in accordance with his (the Sun’s) annual journey. This almost always included observances on or around the time of the Sun’s apparent rebirth, and the practice is much older than 2000 years. By way of reference material to confirm this fact, you might try reading ‘Anacalypsis’ (Godfrey Higgins); you might try reading the ‘Encyclopedia of Freemasonry’ (Albert Mackey an Charles McClenachan); you might try reading ‘Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite’ (Albert Pike); or you might try reading something less challenging like ‘Gnosis and Literature’ (Arthur Versluis). Did you even study the history of pagan lore, or of the Mystery Schools? More than that, arguing whether a ‘December 25th’ observance of the rebirth of the Sun (or some variant of a sun god) pre-dates the Gospels is not something I care to do with you. You are obstinate and you are deliberately obtuse when it suits your purposes. You’ve also become intolerably nasty. And in perfect keeping with the personality type you’ve willingly become, you’re almost always wrong.

          “This will be my last reply for you but feel free to rant on.”

          A promise you kept for about eight seconds, I noticed. Speaks to your honesty.

          “An apostate, who hated Christ, made Dec. 25th. a pagan holiday. Wonder why???”

          That’s putting the cart before the horse, or, as I like to say, being deliberately obtuse.

          If that’s not coherent enough for you Mr. Clinton, too bad.

          Lifels wrote:

          “[R]emember why Jesus was in Jerusalem? To celebrate Passover. After the Seder, he was arrested.”

          Firstly, a Seder is a Jewish tradition which, I believe finds its origin only after the destruction of the Second Temple and the final of dispersion of Judea into the nations. I object to the suggestion that a Seder (per se) was observed by any of the Jehudim during the week of Messiah’s sacrifice. If you have evidence that a Seder was observed (be it traditional or habitual) the evening prior to the Passover sacrifice and meal, I would be happy to review it.

          Secondly, you seem to agree that the meal partaken of by Messiah and the disciples was not the Passover meal itself, but occurred one day earlier. That accords with the timeline, as I understand it.

          “Remember the Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar.”

          Lifels, the RABINNICAL calendar is a lunar calendar. The modern Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar. The one viable and authentic ‘Calendar’ from Scripture is NOT a lunar calendar. The Calendar observed by Messiah and the disciples was NOT a lunar calendar. This is by no means said to suggest that a lunar calendar was not observed by Babylonian-influenced Pharisaical authorities or their ancestors. No doubt you will find MANY references to some variant of Babylonian lunar calendar in Scripture. But neither this lunar calendar, nor again ANY form of lunar calendar, is the authentic system for marking time as ordained by the Most High in the written Word.

          “And to get Easter near Passover, we have to go by the Moon. Which we do.”

          [Please see the above comment by me. I would be happy to elaborate on this. It is a time-consuming study, but the results yield ‘insurmountable proof’ (and I do not use that term loosely) that no version of any lunar calendar is the true Calendar of Scripture. It is not possible for any lunar calendar to be the scripturally correct ‘calendar.’]

          “Easter is NOT a date on the Gregorian calendar.”

          Is this incompatible with what I stated earlier? I wrote:

          “Easter is named for a pagan fertility goddess and it is a moveable feast which does not correspond to ANY particular date on either of the calendars in question.”

      • am123

        “Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt UTTERLY DETEST IT, and thou shalt UTTERLY ABHOR IT; for it is a cursed thing.”

        BEEF, I read this in context to be talking about a false idol, something bowed down to and worshipped, not a Christmas tree. For here is that verse in context with the previous verse:

        25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therin: for it is an abomination to the Lord thy God.
        26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.— Deuteronomy 7:25

        —- Deuteronomy 7:25-26

        The abomination spoken of in verse 26 is the false idol spoken of in verse 25. I know I don’t worship a tree. Yes, one can make a false idol out of a Christmas tree, but no more or no less than one can make a false idol out of automobiles, houses, money, sex, or whatever is first in a person’s heart. So for me it is all about context. As I explained in a comment to Mayhem above, I know nothing of these other gods talked about by others regarding December 25th. You say these gods and celebrations precede the Gospels and Mike and others he linked to say they don’t. I say it is irrelevant which precedes which because the only relevant thing is what is in a person’s heart. If one’s heart belongs to one of these other gods, gods which someone like yes2bloviating can tell you all about I’m sure, then yep, that is a one way to ticket to the lake of fire. But if someone’s heart is in the right place, if the Most High occupies first place, then there is no idolatry.

        If you are of the belief Deuteronomy 7:26 is referring to a Christmas tree, then are you of the belief that those who have a Christmas tree should be utterly destroyed as it says in Deuteronomy 7:2 concerning those who practice idolatry? Now don’t get me wrong, when the Most High opens up the place where His weapons are stored, we have been commanded to utterly destroy Babylon, and I’m all in on that, but will that apply to those who celebrated, as the angels did, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men”?

        “HEAR THE WORD which the LORD speaketh unto you…”

        Is this not out of character for you BEEF? Or at least rare? To make such a proclamation is to elevate the comment “Learn not the way of the heathen” from something we can discuss/dispute in trying to rightly divide the Word to something much higher that cannot be disputed as it is portrayed as coming from the mouth of the Most High. Your beliefs on Christmas trees/celebrations are between you and God. And if you were to celebrate Christmas, it of course would be sin for you. But if you want to extend this belief beyond the scope of your heart into the scope of the hearts of others who believe in Jesus and want to celebrate His birth, are you not infringing on what is between them and God?

        Let everyone have their minds fully persuaded on this subject lest it become sin for them. I am fully persuaded that it is not Scripture but legalism that condemns someone for celebrating Christmas.

        • BEEF SUPREME

          “…the only relevant thing is what is in a person’s heart.”

          That is absolutely contradictory to a recurring theme in Scripture. The point is that it matters NOT what is in a person’s heart, because:

          “The heart is DECEITFUL above all things, and DESPERATELY WICKED: who can know it?” — Jeremiah 17:9

          Please pay careful attention, am123… this is where you seem to veer sharply from the written Word. You say it’s important what’s in the heart and Scripture says:

          “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool…” Proverbs 28:26

          “…lean not unto thine own understanding.” Proverbs 3:5

          “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth NO GOOD THING: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.” Romans 7:18

          This should make it VERY CLEAR that we are not to be looking to our own hearts for guidance in these matters, but we should be looking to the guidance of the written Word. When we DEVIATE from what is written because it seems right to us to do so (Christmas worship being a PRIMARY example of this), then we’ll quickly find ourselves in flagrant violation of the written Commandments to not stray from His Instruction.

          “But if someone’s heart is in the right place, if the Most High occupies first place, then there is no idolatry.”

          am123… do you think Jeroboam, who made Israel to sin, thought he was doing well when he set up the golden images and commanded that they were to be worshipped IN HONOR OF THE LORD? Jeroboam was almost certainly misled by his own heart.

          Again, you said: “…if the Most High occupies first place, then there is no idolatry”, but how are we to FACT CHECK the reality of our situation? Should we not always compare what we are doing with what is written? And here we have the Most High Commanding that we are NEVER to worship as the heathen nations do, and he even DESCRIBES AN IDOL which bears a startling resemblance to the Christmas tree, and He says NEVER to go after the gods of the nations and not to MINGLE pagan worship with what is commanded, AND YET YOU INSIST that because your heart tells you it’s okay to do these things, that it’s all perfectly fine and dandy because you have best intentions foremost in mind?

          Insanity, brother. (See Jeroboam.)

          “…but will that apply to those who celebrated, as the angels did, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men”?”

          Don’t try these tactics on me, please. Do I mean to suggest that the ANGELS accidently observed Christmas? Secure that nonsense, if you will. The angels KNEW what they were doing. ANYONE who observes the typical Christmas worship and thinks he is honoring the Most High DOES NOT know what he is doing, for the reason that he thinks he knows better than the Most High. The Almighty Himself has specifically and repeatedly said not to do what you are suggesting we should do. Yet you insist He wasn’t really talking about this Christmas thing.

          “Is this not out of character for you BEEF? Or at least rare? To make such a proclamation is to elevate the comment “Learn not the way of the heathen” from something we can discuss/dispute in trying to rightly divide the Word to something much higher that cannot be disputed as it is portrayed as coming from the mouth of the Most High.”

          What do you mean “portrayed as coming from the mouth of the Most High”? Are you serious? Was I not quoting Scripture? My mistake was assuming I didn’t have to show chapter and verse each and every time I quoted the Book. Lesson learned:

          Jeremiah 10:1

          “HEAR THE WORD which the LORD speaketh unto you…”

          Should I repeat what He said, or do we all have access to a Bible? Never mind. Here it is:

          Jeremiah 10:2

          “THUS SAYETH THE LORD, LEARN NOT the way of the heathen…”

          “Your beliefs on Christmas trees/celebrations are between you and God.”

          But not between me and my brethren? I quote Scripture, am123. My beliefs don’t even get a seat at the table. What is written? Why are you so adamant in the face of specific instructions? I LIKED Christmas too, am123. I LIKED the Christmas tree. Why? Because in my flesh is NO GOOD THING, and my heart is DECEITFUL and DESPERATELY WICKED. I had to learn, contrary to my own nature, to reject these things because they are abominable to the Most High. I know they are abominable to Him because He went to significant lengths explaining it to me in the written Word.

          “But if you want to extend this belief beyond the scope of your heart into the scope of the hearts of others who believe in Jesus and want to celebrate His birth, are you not infringing on what is between them and God?”

          am123, am I the AUTHOR of this article? or a respondent to its claims. Am I the one who posts my opinions and my beliefs amongst the headlines at this website? or do I only and always answer the headlines when I see deviance from the written Word. Am I the teacher? Do you see me telling anyone what or how to think? Or do you see me quoting Scripture.

          “I am fully persuaded that it is not Scripture but legalism that condemns someone for celebrating Christmas.”

          Excellent. Was that meant for the Most High? Good luck explaining yourself to Him. Was it intended for me? Please show me when and where I ever condemned anyone for celebrating Christmas. These tactics coming from you are what I have come to expect from the many and varied thoughtless advocates against the Word. When a man makes an argument that something NON VALID is perfectly acceptable in the face of scriptural teaching, am I remiss when I argue the opposite in response to what he has posted from an assumed position of authority? No. I am not remiss. Neither do I condemn. But I do judge. I judge both you and Clinton to be in error concerning this matter. And I ask no forgiveness for saying so. You, as a brother in Messiah, are strong and mature enough to meet my objections face-to-face, and I expect this exchange will have little bearing on our mutual standing as brothers. Clinton has aptly, and now repeatedly, demonstrated he lacks that ability. So be it. Should you persist in your charge of legalism against me, I will be happy to add it to the collection of similar charges I have sustained, and I will assign to it concern about equal to my level of concern for those myriad other empty indictments.

        • am123

          “The point is that it matters NOT what is in a person’s heart”

          To the contrary, for the heart is how the Lord judges us. He knows our hearts and that is what He looks at:

          “But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.”

          —1 Samuel 16:7

          “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also”

          — Matthew 6:21

          “A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.”

          — Matthew 12:35

          “we are not to be looking to our own hearts for guidance in these matters, but we should be looking to the guidance of the written Word”

          Yes we are to look to the Word for guidance, but not exclusively as you claim. You forgot the Holy Spirit and the peace that guides our hearts:

          “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth”

          —John 16:13

          “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

          —Philippians 4:7

          “do you think Jeroboam, who made Israel to sin, thought he was doing well when he set up the golden images and commanded that they were to be worshipped IN HONOR OF THE LORD?”

          I said “if someone’s heart is in the right place, if the Most High occupies first place, then there is no idolatry”, and in response to that bring up Jeroboam? You’re better than that BEEF. The Most High was not number one in Jeroboam’s heart, for concerning Jeroboam, the Word says:

          “thou hast not been as my servant David, who kept my commandments, and who followed me with all his heart, to do that only which was right in mine eyes”

          —1 Kings 14:8

          “Was I not quoting Scripture? My mistake was assuming I didn’t have to show chapter and verse each and every time I quoted the Book. Lesson learned:”

          You’ve been around here long enough to see many others on this site say very similar things as “HEAR THE WORD which the LORD speaketh unto you” and they were not quoting Scripture but were pretending to speak verbatim for the Lord.

          “Excellent. Was that meant for the Most High? Good luck explaining yourself to Him. Was it intended for me?”

          That was meant for any brothers/sisters in Christ reading this. They should have their minds fully persuaded one way or the other.

          “Please show me when and where I ever condemned anyone for celebrating Christmas.”

          Here you go:

          “And here we have the Most High Commanding that we are NEVER to worship as the heathen nations do, and he even DESCRIBES AN IDOL which bears a startling resemblance to the Christmas tree, and He says NEVER to go after the gods of the nations and not to MINGLE pagan worship with what is commanded, AND YET YOU INSIST that because your heart tells you it’s okay to do these things, that it’s all perfectly fine and dandy because you have best intentions foremost in mind?”

          Which “gods of the nations” do you think I go after, is it Saturnella or whoever the pagans gods are?

          “I judge both you and Clinton to be in error concerning this matter.”

          So then we can agree to disagree.

        • BEEF SUPREME

          A few points before we ‘finish’ our ‘disagreement’…

          Never make the mistake of convicting a man for condemning when what he has done is quote Scripture. Your evidence against me will end up serving against you. Now I want to be very clear about this over-all picture – and I wanted to wait until you had answered my objections, which you have done in the main by deflecting. For example: When I bring up Jeroboam, you say to me that Jeroboam was a poor example because he didn’t follow the Highest with all his heart the way David did. I find this will help me to highlight a very important distinction between us, which is this: I take it, based upon the verse you provided about Jeroboam, that YOU DO believe yourself to be following the Highest with all your heart JUST LIKE David. Whereas I would never (in this life) be forward enough to make such a proclamation, because I maintain that we have NO IDEA what it means to follow the Most High as David did. We can only speculate. Moreover, I believe it is grossly inappropriate to compare ourselves with David – which you have done, albeit tangentially. If you deny that you have done, then your point about Jeroboam becomes moot.

          You maintain that a heart must be in the right place. OVERALL, I agree that it must. But here is the distinction you fail to make: The heart must not be TRUSTED to be ‘in the right place.’ The Word makes this absolutely clear. So how do we CHECK to SEE whether the heart is in the right place? We do this by comparing what we find within it, to what we find within the Word. If we check our heart against our emotions or our feelings (which is checking our heart against our heart), then we have signed an open invitation to disaster. Are we Spirit-infused? Perhaps. But how can we be certain? We can compare our heart with the Word.

          This is the point you have consistently failed to address:

          What we find within the Word is certain – and it says NOT to observe Christmas if you think you are honoring the Father or the Son by doing so. The Word says NOT to improvise and NOT to implement the traditions of man and NOT to mingle pagan practices with the Statutes and Ordinances from on High.

          Yet you make an argument which contradicts the direct Instructions of the Most High.

          This next point I want to make perfectly clear:

          We live in this world, and sometimes it is difficult to completely insulate ourselves from the WAY of this world. We might feel the need to at least make a token gesture of recognizing what is arguably the world’s number one holiday. SO IF we choose to observe Christmas, via some token gesture like participating in Christmas dinner with family or even consenting to the exchange of gifts, I believe we cross the line into the inappropriate and dangerous THE MOMENT we become convinced that the festivities and rituals of that day IN ANY WAY honor the Father or the Son. They do not.

          The Almighty has spoken. In His Word He has included very specific instructions for HOW He is to be honored and worshipped. Included in His Instructions are the very specific and often repeated rules NEVER to augment or to improvise or to change in any way what He has prescribed. According to the written Word of the Most High, Christmas observance does not, and cannot, honor Him. It never has and it never will. If a brother or sister feels compelled to observe Christmas, perhaps for the sake of their family or friends, they do well if they remember that the traditions of the day ARE NOT OBSERVED to honor the most high. It’s a party. That’s what it is. No better than a back yard Bar-B-Q with family and friends. With pretty lights. I do not condemn a person for their observance of Christmas. But the second that person convinces themselves that there is a HIGHER meaning to the day – that the day IN ANY WAY honors the Father or the Son – that person does so amiss, and their heart, no matter their deeply-held personal convictions, is NOT in the right place at all.

          We study the Word to show ourselves approved. There is no room for Christmas in the Word.

        • am123

          Before you said:

          “The point is that it matters NOT what is in a person’s heart”

          And now you say:

          “You maintain that a heart must be in the right place. OVERALL, I agree that it must.”

          How can you agree that someone’s heart must be in the right place if it matters not what is in person’s heart? That makes no sense. You can’t have it both ways. I showed from the Word that the Lord looks at our hearts and our hearts are where our treasures are. Either your statement that “it matters NOT what is in a person’s heart” is correct or it is not. Which is it?

          As to the Jeroboam example, the point was the Most High was not number one in Jeroboam’s heart, which was a CONDITION I set forth when I said “if someone’s heart is in the right place, if the Most High occupies first place, then there is no idolatry”. So using Jeroboam as an example is not applicable to my original statement. I merely used the Scripture about David’s heart to show that the Most High was not number one in Jeroboam’s heart. Are we not able to make the simple declaration that the Most High is number one in our hearts? If God is not number one in your heart, then you make a false idol out of whatever is.

          “The heart must not be TRUSTED to be ‘in the right place.’ The Word makes this absolutely clear.”

          For a born again person, that is not true. The peace of God will be disturbed when your heart
          is not in the right place and it will maintain peace when your heart is in the right place. So the peace of God is used as a guide wire for your heart:

          “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”
          —Philippians 4:7

          So to be clear, the Word AND our hearts are our guides and not the Word alone as you claim. For example, you are offered a new job, and you must move cross country for it though and there are advantages and disadvantages you must weigh. Are you going to find direction from the Word for that decision? No, you should look to the peace of God in your heart.

          As to the idea of celebrating Christmas and these things you say about the Word, I do not equate celebrating Christmas with making a false idol out of silver or gold, bowing down to it and calling it god and worshipping that god and praying to it. These pagan gods you associate with Christmas don’t even enter my mind. I have a different take on a person’s heart than you do. In order to be guilty of idolatry, something or someone other than God must be number one in your heart. If God is number one in your heart, everything else will fall into the proper perspective.

        • BEEF SUPREME

          “So to be clear, the Word AND our hearts are our guides and not the Word alone as you claim.”

          Very well. Which then, according to you, takes precedence?

          The Word… or the heart.

          ???

        • am123

          Your question presumes there is a conflict. If what is in a person’s heart is at odds with the Word, the peace of God would be disturbed in their heart IF that person is walking in the Lord and in tune with the Holy Spirit.

        • am123

          However, I’ll grant you this, if a person believes in their heart of hearts they are right AND what they believe contradicts the Word, they have been deceived. But in such a situation, they are not being led by the Holy Spirit.

          I’ll give you a real example right from the pages of BIN and I would be curious as to your take on it. Many times on these pages, I have argued with TS and yes2what’shisname about the timing of the passion, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus. They believe in their hearts it was a literal 72 hour period. But the “third day” is defined for us right in the Word and indicates the “third day” means the day after tomorrow and not a 72 hour period. So in this case, their heart says one thing, but it should be overridden by what the Word says. I maintain they have been deceived by their hearts and know not the Holy Spirit.

        • BEEF SUPREME

          “Your question presumes there is a conflict.”

          When isn’t there one?

          “If what is in a person’s heart is at odds with the Word, the peace of God would be disturbed in their heart IF that person is walking in the Lord and in tune with the Holy Spirit.”

          I believe this places too much stock in the intangible. What we have here is an argument over specific statutes and ordinances, and whether or not an observance which is outside the purview of those statutes is permissible. A person would first have to become intimately familiar with the code for conduct, as it is written, before he could presume any ability to fly by the seat of his pants and be led by his inner peace. I believe there are MANY examples of folks who are at peace, but who do not live according to the Word. This may be attributable to the fact that they don’t know any better, but the phenomenon certainly seems real enough to me, whatever the reasons behind it. Perhaps their peace is an illusion. Because this is not something I can quantify, I cannot but speculate.

          My stance on the matter is stated plainly enough – I don’t see room for compromise and I don’t see room for a perfectly tuned heart which sings happy birthday to Messiah on December 25th.

          “However, I’ll grant you this, if a person believes in their heart of hearts they are right AND what they believe contradicts the Word, they have been deceived. But in such a situation, they are not being led by the Holy Spirit.”

          Those are precisely the components to which this matter reduces. And there it is. I reserve the right to be wrong, but I think you are deceived in this particular instance. I am persuaded that Christmas is a wholly-owned invention of the Adversary. I am well-acquainted with the mileage he gets out of the deception, having studied the patterns of his handiwork. His modus operandi, IN ALL CASES, is to produce a counterfeit. Christmas is precisely that – it is a counterfeit. Our Father has taken pains to speak to us in very simple language. He has said in effect: “Thou shalt not.” The chorus I keep hearing answers: “What harm can there be in this?” But that question is not ours to ask, once our Father has spoken and said: “Do not do this thing.” Of your own admission, you have not studied the Mysteries or the ancient pagan rituals and rites. I have. And I can tell you with 100 percent clarity that Christmas is a meticulously-devised deception, hand-crafted by none other than The Enemy himself. This is my witness to you as your brother in Messiah.

          RE the timing of Messiah’s death and resurrection:

          This too is a topic to which I have devoted a great deal of study. Here are my findings, in brief:

          I believe Matthew 12:40 is a gloss. I believe Weymouth got it right from his ‘Resultant Greek New Testament.’ He has it thus:

          “For just as Jonah was three days in the sea-monster’s belly, so will the Son of Man be three days in the heart of the earth.”

          You will have noticed that Matthew 12:40 is the ONLY place in the New Testament which states: three days and three nights. In ALL other references to the event, it is worded: “the third day.” I will also concur with your analysis of the Hebrew idiom: ‘…today, tomorrow, and the third day.’ It means exactly what it says.

          Furthermore, after studying the biblically-correct ‘Calendar’ for about four years, I can tell you that the Passover, the Sabbath, and the Wave Sheaf Offering absolutely agree with the Hebrew idiom, and with your assessment of the timing. Messiah died and was buried. He spent the next day in the grave. The day after that, the THIRD day…

          …He is RISEN.

        • am123

          Before we get too far along BEEF, can we agree on the following or not:

          I maintain that the point you originally made that it “matters NOT what is in a person’s heart” is INCORRECT and lines up not with the WORD. For I have showed from the Word that there is indeed a part played by the heart.

          Do you agree or disagree BEEF?

        • BEEF SUPREME

          What I will agree to is this, even if my above postings make it much less clear than I would have liked:

          The heart is a part of the package, as designed by the Creator. Therefore, it will play an absolute part in the analysis of life as it happens. It serves a purpose. Yes. I did not mean to suggest that it’s a useless component.

          But like ALL THINGS in the Biblical Narrative, we find that a thing has its rightful place in a hierarchy. And it is my contention that the heart finds its rightful place as SUBORDINATE, in all instances, to the written Word. Whether or not it actually BEHAVES as subordinate to the Word, can best be verified by seeking recourse to the Word itself.

          No, the heart is not a useless appendage, and I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise.

        • BEEF SUPREME

          I really don’t think it can be said better than this:

          Proverbs 28:26

          “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.”

        • am123

          Thank you brother BEEF for your take on and clarifying Christ rising on the third day. How good it is when brothers in Messiah can joust and disagree and agree on things while attacking and defending—I mean debating—and iron gets sharpened in these encounters and as a by-product, some tasty and nutritious nuggets are produced for the entire readership to consume and be better for it as in this particular case concerning the timing of the passion, crucifixion, and resurrection of our High Priest the Lamb of God. It happened according the Hebrew idiom BEEF referenced in other words, the day after tomorrow.

          It is very interesting BEEF that you and TS are not on the same page with this, very interesting indeed:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krD4hdGvGHM

          :grin:

        • am123

          “No, the heart is not a useless appendage, and I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise.”

          Excellent.

          :arrow: Thanks for the clarification BEEF!

          Carry on! :lol:

        • am123

          “I reserve the right to be wrong, but I think you are deceived in this particular instance. I am persuaded that Christmas is a wholly-owned invention of the Adversary.”

          I believe Halloween is a wholly-owned holiday of the Adversary no debate there, I just don’t believe Christmas rises to that level. But I can appreciate what you say and applaud your honesty and sincerity and have enjoyed the exchange.

          Let us see where we stand on the issue next year same time of year same place shall we?

        • am123

          “When isn’t there one?”

          When the heart agrees with the Word for example:

          I believe Jesus was the Word made flesh—no conflict of interest there! :wink:

        • Mayhem

          We’ve Passover to get through before we do Christmas again. Like how we observe the traditional fertility rituals instead of the Crucifixion.

          It’s all about the lying to the Chilluns, as far as i’m concerned, and we do it repeatedly. Just like with the Tooth Fairy, innit?

        • am123

          Hmmm……..BEEF’s RISEN comment got 1 up vote and a BEEF post a couple posts above that got 2 thumbs up. I’m guessing the 1 up vote was Mayhem and the 2 up votes were Mayhem plus…..hmmmm……let me see……who would agree to one of those posts but not the other…why…could it be TS??? :lol:

          Anyone wanna wager on that? :wink: :lol:

          For the record Mayhem, do you concur with the “third day” assessment that it is the day after tomorrow or do you side with the stiff necks like TS and yes2bloviating on that issue and believe in a ridiculous exact 72 hour period?

        • am123

          On a completely unrelated topic, has someone we are all familiar with tired of signing in with his multiple IDs and wore out his finger with so many mouse clicks or are we seeing a change in policy by BIN:

          /alternative/2014/12/1-trillion-dollar-lawsuit-filed-against-msm-for-staging-sandy-hook-massacre-it-was-a-fema-exercise-video-3083378.html

          ….or has he just not gotten around to that article yet?

        • Mayhem

          I give very little thought to how the voting goes but yes one of Beef Supreme’s +1′s will be from me. I want everybody to vote but it seems that an extra left click is beyond the capabilities of most, such is life.

          While you’re quick to label folk as legalistic, am123, i can’t help but notice how much you squirm when tasked. This isn’t the first time either and your pride shows. Now then…

          “I am persuaded that Christmas is a wholly-owned invention of the Adversary”

          … to wit i agree completely.

          For the record: i have the same understanding of the third day assessment that the two of you have herein expressed.

        • am123

          Well then, I guess we’ve gotten a head start on Passover! :lol:

        • Truthseeker

          am123

          I keep telling myself to stop commenting, it is a waste of time, that being said I will attempt one more time to show am123 that the ONLY SIGN that Jesus Christ gave us that HE is the Son of God was “”Three (3) days and three (3) nights in the “heart” of the earth.

          First a DAY according the Christ is 12 hours, a DAY in the Word of God is the duration of LIGHT.
          Genesis 1: 5 And God called the ‘light’ DAY and the darkness He called NIGHT.

          As there were no clocks in those days they used the the positions of the sun: sunrise began the first hour, noon ends the 6th hour and sunset ends the 12th hour. Christ was stabbed by a Roman spear at the 9th hour, our 3PM, and died. He was hung on the stake around noon the 6th hour.

          Christ said 3 days -3 periods of light and 3 nights –3 periods of darkness would be the ONLY sign. And the ONLY sign would “begin” WHEN HE is in the Heart of the earth -the tomb!

          Christ died at the 9th hour and was placed in the tomb just before sundown, maybe moments before.

          It took 3 hours, from the 9th hour until the 12 hour for Pilate to send men to break the legs of Christ only to find Him dead and then Joseph had to approach Pilate for permission to take Christ off the stake ahead of the coming HIGH SABBATH i.e. the first day of unleavened bread.

          Then Joseph did take Christ down, cleaned up His body and wrapped it in cloth and then carried the body to the tomb and placed it in the tomb and rolled the boulder in place— There is not account of the time it took but they walked and nothing was close and it was up hills and down hills.

          Please forgive me this one time — but logic tells me all of this took some time, most likely the 3 hours.

          We now have Christ in the tomb some where between 15 minutes to 15 seconds before sundown. If you want – call it 30 minutes before, but 30 minutes does not count as A DAY,

          For argument sake lets say it was just before sundown on Wednesday, the 4th day of the week, that Christ was laid in the tomb.

          Thursday night — first night
          Thursday day — first day

          Friday night — second night
          Friday day — second night

          Sabbath night — third night
          Sabbath day –THE THIRD DAY

          Jesus Christ was resurrected ON THE THIRD DAY and it was the SABBATH DAY –THE DAY CHRIST IS LORD OF.

          I realize to accept this causes the house of cards of most believers to fall

          Starting on a Thursday day, the day after tomorrow (tomorrow being Friday) is the Sabbath

        • Truthseeker

          Typo, sorry it should read: Friday Day — the second day

        • am123

          “I realize to accept this causes the house of cards of most believers to fall”

          No, to accept this is to reject the meaning of the “third day” as defined in Scripture.

          “We now have Christ in the tomb some where between 15 minutes to 15 seconds before sundown.”

          So if they didn’t have the body in the tomb until say, until 14 seconds before sundown, does your house of cards collapse? Amazing the detail you are going through in painting your false picture. :lol:

          “Starting on a Thursday day, the day after tomorrow (tomorrow being Friday) is the Sabbath”

          Ah, trying to sneak the Biblical meaning of the “third day” in so as to try and bamboozle any novices with your Biblically-unsound scenario, eh TS?

          The following is for the benefit of anyone seeking the Scriptural truth of the matter concerning the duration of the passion, crucifixion, and resurrection of Messiah:

          Jesus told the disciples that He would be killed and raised on the “third day”:

          “From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.”
          —Matthew 16:21

          “For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.”
          —Mark 9:31

          “Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.”
          —Luke 9:22

          So then, Jesus was to be killed and raised on the “third day”. Keep in mind in Truthseeker’s faulty scenario he says Jesus was killed on Wednesday. What then is the Biblical meaning of the “third day”? The Biblical pattern of the “third day” means in modern terminology the day after tomorrow:

          10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
          11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

          —Exodus 19:10-11

          In the sequence described above, the LORD tells Moses to sanctify the people today and tomorrow and then on the third day, He would appear to them. This is not a 72 hour period. The LORD counted today as day 1, tomorrow as day 2, and the following day as day 3. In other words, the third day is the day after tomorrow. Here is another example from Scripture:

          5 And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord, ye shall offer it at your own will.
          6 It shall be eaten the same day ye offer it, and on the morrow: and if ought remain until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire.

          —Leviticus 19:5-6

          And here is the cherry on top, the piece de resistance, a third witness from the Word, Jesus using the same terminology where the third day means the day after tomorrow:

          “And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.”
          —Luke 13:32

          So given that the “third day” means, in modern terminology, the day after tomorrow, if Jesus was killed on Wednesday as you claim TS, He would have had to rise on Friday to fit in with the Biblical meaning of the “third day”.

          As it is, you even compound your errors by claiming the resurrection took place on Saturday when the Gospel of John says the resurrection took place on the first day of the week (Sunday). But perhaps we can discuss that another time.

        • Truthseeker

          am123

          why is it that in your mind the words of Jesus Christ are with out meaning?

          Why do you always ignore the 3 nights,

          Christ’s statement was He would be in the heart of the Earth i.e. the tomb for 3 days –
          AND 3 NIGHTS –Christ did not say 3 parts of days and 3 parts of nights.

          am 123 keep in mind I have no say in your salvation, it is not me you have to please but God.
          If you reject the 3 nights that is between you and Jesus Christ.

        • am123

          “why is it that in your mind the words of Jesus Christ are with out meaning?”

          The words of Jesus always have meaning. That’s why I included them in my previous post!

          “Why do you always ignore the 3 nights,”

          What is BEEF, chopped liver? He already addressed that. But perhaps you “glossed” over it. :lol:

          Besides, read how Esther fasted for 3 days and 3 nights, yet appeared before the king on the third day—same thing with Matthew 12:40.

          “am 123 keep in mind I have no say in your salvation”

          Really? :eek:

          Phew! I guess I dodged a bullet there! :lol:

        • am123

          “the Gospel of John says the resurrection took place on the first day of the week (Sunday)”

          CORRECTION:

          It is in the Gospel of Luke where the women from Galilee show the resurrection took place on the first day of the week.

        • BEEF SUPREME

          “..the first day of the week.”

          That’s where Sunday worshippers are out of gas.

          The Resurrection took place on THE EIGHTH day.

          ‘First’ day of the week is really beside the point. This, again, is modeled after the feast schedule, wherein the EIGHTH DAY (the Great Day of the feast), is showing the age after Messiah’s 1000 year reign on this Earth, which equates to the Sabbath rest. The Eighth Day it all begins new. Just like it did for Messiah. He died (which He came to do, i.e., it was His WORK.) Then He rested on the Sabbath. Then He rose on the Eighth Day.

    • Pix

      Talk about grasping at straws, there is in your face evidence, ie everyone with eyes can witness the phenomena every year, that the sun reaches the lowest point on the horizon on the 21st, the winter solstice, the shortest day. The sun stays in the same low point on the horizon for 3 days in the cave/grave/tomb, followed by a rebirth/renewal of the solar cycle on the 25th when the sun is clearly higher in the sky again… hallelujah, the sun is born anew.

      You are being way less than honest in your apologetics seeing as it’s very common knowledge that the Jews who exist today with their brutal military occupation of Palestine, are not the ancient Israelites but Jewish because a middle ages king decided everyone in his country was going to be Jewish. Judaism is the invention of the political party called the Pharisees and didn’t exist until after 70 CE. It has nothing in common with anything the Israelites believed.

      • max jones

        ……pox…400 years before Christ was born, the 10 northern tribes of Israel (Ephraim), were taken captive by the Assyrians….They never went back….about the same time, Judah’s Levitical priesthood became lazy and
        and ‘hired’ a group Canaanite helpers,,,these helpers were Kenites….synagogue of Satan. By the time Judah herself was invaded and taken over by Rome, the clergy of the Judeans was completely corrupted….and THEY never went back to worshiping God……These are the people who still run Israel…the state…to this day.
        i
        The politics of Israel is a bellweather. The condition of her politcal status…..Is but a symptom of the spiritual condition of the entire world, till death do us part.
        ….Pox…you’re in so much trouble…OMG!!
        ….Its very ignorant of you, pox, to not know where the name “JEW” comes from…..It is Judah….and in the old days, only the citizens of tribe and location of Judah were ever called Jews….you are making stuff up. again. :cool:

    • Amminadab

      DID EARLY CHRISTIANS CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS?

      “Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church…the first evidence of the feast is from Egypt.” “Pagan customs centering around the January calendars gravitated to Christmas.” “…In the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his [Jesus] birthday. It is only sinners who make great rejoicings over the day in which they were born into this world” -Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911 Edition, published by the Roman Catholic Church

      And to settle “some” minds out there that place no stock in any boast of Catholicism, the Roman Church is not the only one that understands this simple historic fact…

      “A broad element of English Christianity still considered Christmas celebration a pagan blasphemy. The Puritans, Baptists, Quakers, Presbyterians, Calvinists and other denominations brought this opposition to early New England and strong opposition to the holiday lasted in America until the middle of the 18th century.” -The Origins of Christmas,” Rick Meisel, Dec. 19, 1993, p. 4.

      “…Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the church….” -Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946 edition

      “Christmas… It was, according to many authorities, not celebrated in the first centuries of the Christian church, as the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons [eg Communion - death of Christ] rather than their birth…” “…A feast was established in memory of this event [the birth of Jesus] in the fourth century. In the fifth century the Western Church ordered it to be celebrated forever ON THE DAY OF THE OLD ROMAN FEAST OF THE BIRTH OF SOL [SUN], as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ’s birth existed.” Emphasis added. -Encyclopedia Americana, 1944 Edition

      Since there is no evidence for the observance of Christmas in the Bible, the questions arise, What is its origin? and when did its celebration begin? Lector P. Walsdenstrom says: “The custom to celebrate the birth of Christ in the last part of December began first in the fourth century. Before that the sixth of January was celebrated.”– Notes to Luke 2:8.

      “How much the date of the festival depended upon the pagan Brumalia (December 25th) following the Saturnalia (December 17th-24th), and celebrating the shortest day of the year and the ‘new sun’…cannot be accurately determined. The pagan Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence…The pagan festival with it’s riot and merrymaking was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit and in manner. Christian preachers of the West and the Near East protested against the unseemly frivolity with which Christ’s birthday was celebrated, while Christians of Mesopotamia ACCUSED THEIR WESTERN BRETHREN OF IDOLATRY AND SUN WORSHIP FOR ADOPTING AS CHRISTIAN THIS PAGAN FESTIVAL” Emphasis added. -The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge

      “…within the Christian Church no such festival as Christmas was ever heard of till the third century, and…not till the fourth century was far advanced did it gain much observance. How, then, did the Romish Church fix on December 25th as Christmas-day? Why, thus: Long before the fourth century, and long before the Christian era itself, a festival was celebrated among the heathen, at that precise time of the year, in honour of the birth of the son of the Babylonian queen of heaven; and it may fairly be presumed that, in order to conciliate the heathen, and to swell the number of nominal adherents of Christianity, the same festival was adopted by the Roman Church, giving it the name of Christ.” -The Two Babylons, p 93.

    • Amminadab

      become customary and popular. But yet there is no certainty that we are keeping the veritable day of our Saviour’s birth. History gives us no certain assurance of this. The Bible does not give us the precise time. Had the Lord deemed this knowledge essential to our salvation, he would have spoken through his prophets and apostles, that we might know all about the matter. But the silence of the Scriptures upon this point evidences to us that it is hidden from us for the wisest purposes. In his wisdom, the Lord concealed the place where he buried Moses. God buried him, and God resurrected him, and took him to heaven. This secrecy was to prevent idolatry.” -R&H 12-9-1884

      “For the very same purpose he has concealed the precise day of Christ’s birth; that the day should not receive the honour that should be given to Christ as the Redeemer of the world, – one to be received, to be trusted, to be relied on as he who could save to the uttermost all who come unto him. The soul’s adoration should be given to Jesus as the Son of the infinite God.

      “There is no divine sanctity resting upon the twenty-fifth of December; and it is not pleasing to God that anything that concerns the salvation of man through the infinite sacrifice made for them, should be so sadly perverted from its professed design. Christ should be the supreme object; but as Christmas has been observed, the glory is turned from him to mortal man, whose sinful, defective character made it necessary for him to come to our world.” -R&H 12-9-1884

      “Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.” -ACTS 17:29-31

      “Even Christmas, the day observed professedly in honour of the birthday of Christ, has been made a most effective means of turning the mind away from Christ, away from his glory. ” -R&H 12-9-1890

      “Christmas: The supposed anniversary of the birth of Jesus Christ, occurring on Dec. 25. No sufficient data … exist, for the determination of the month or the day of the event… There is no historical evidence that our Lord’s birthday was celebrated during the apostolic or early postapostolic times. The uncertainty that existed at the beginning of the third century in the minds of Hippolytus and others—Hippolytus earlier favored Jan. 2, Clement of Alexanderia (Strom., i. 21) “the 25th day of Pachon” (= May 20), while others, according to Clement, fixed upon Apr. 18 or 19 and Mar. 28—proves that no Christmas festival had been established much before the middle of the century. Jan. 6 was earlier fixed upon as the date of the baptism or spiritual birth of Christ, and the feast of Epiphany … was celebrated by the Basilidian Gnostics in the second century … and by catholic Christians by about the beginning of the fourth century. The earliest record of the recognition of Dec. 25 as a church festival is in the Philocalian Calendar (copied 354 but representing Roman practise in 336).” -A. H. Newman, “Christmas,” The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. 3, p. 47. Copyright 1909 by Funk & Wagnalls Company, New York

      “A star cult, sun-worship, became (in the third century A.D.) the dominant official creed, paving the road for the ultimate triumph of Judaeo-Christian monotheism. So strong was the belief in the Invincible Sun (Sol Invictus) that for example Constantine I (d. 337), himself at first a devotee of the sun cult, found it, indeed perfectly compatible with his pro-Christian sympathies to authorize his own portrayal as Helios. And in 354 the ascendant Christian church in the reign of his pious but unsavory son, Constantius II, found it prudent to change the celebration of the birth of Jesus from the traditional date (January 6) to December 25, in order to combat the pagan Sun god’s popularity—his “birthday” being December 25.” -Frederick H. Cramer, Astrology in Roman Law and Politics, p. 4. Copyright 1954 by the American Philosophical Society, Philadelphia.

      “The reasons for celebrating our major feasts when we do are many and varied. In general, however, it is true that many of them have at least an indirect connection with the pre-Christian feasts celebrated about the same time of year — feasts centering around the harvest, the rebirth of the sun at the winter solstice (now Dec. 21, but Dec. 25 in the old Julian calendar), the renewal of nature in spring, and so on.” -The New Question Box – Catholic Life for the Nineties, copyright 1988 by John J. Dietzen, M.A., S.T.L., ISBN 0-940518-01-5 (paperback), published by Guildhall Publishers, Peoria Illinois, 61651., page 554.

    • Truthseeker

      Mike clinton

      The word christmas comes from the roman catholic’s (gentiles) i.e. christ mass and was brought over from paganism, I know you know christmas is totally a pagan day, 100%

      Every thing “catholic” is what you seem to espouse.

      But Mike be of good cheer soon this catholic religion you love will become the religion to the entire world — for a very brief time.

      • Pix

        Truthseeker

        “I know you know christmas is totally a pagan day, 100%. …soon this catholic religion you love will become the religion to the entire world — for a very brief time.”

        Stupid person. Paganism has existed for as long as modern humans have existed, at least 100’000 years, Catholicism began life in the 6th century CE.

        The cart goes behind the horse, not in front. :wink:

        • Truthseeker

          PIX

          LOL LOL you are so funny, you and your man made books. LOL

          pix you will obey the catholics before much longer — just remember you were told.

        • Pix

          Yes very funny, especially when you are the pot calling the kettle black with your man made dark ages book about a giant invisible fairy story character and it’s side kick the talking snake.

          You can also keep your really silly anti social threats of what some other group that you are scared of might do to me when it’s as likely as the moon being made of cheese. You are transferring your disempowerment and fear onto the powerful and fearless, I’m subject to none. I don’t and won’t obey anyone especially mentally damaged adults with imaginary friends,.. but good luck to anyone trying, let the games begin.

          :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

      • am123

        “Jews are born liars.”

        So you believe the Jews who wrote the New Testament were liars? :lol:

        • yes2truth

          What Jews that wrote the NT? :eek: :eek: :eek: :lol: :lol: :lol:

          The only thing The Jews ever wrote was the Babylonian Talmud.

          Time you took up tiddly winks. :lol: :lol: :lol:

        • Pix

          yes2truth

          The Jews didn’t write anything, Rabbinic = word of mouth. :wink: :lol:

        • BEEF SUPREME

          “Rabbinic = word of mouth.”

          Only in PIXVILLE, population: one ‘professor’ plus all of her imaginary pupils.

          RAB (or RAV, transliterated from Akkadian, Sumerian, OR Aramaic) means GREAT or GREAT one. The RAB or RAV prefix to a name was an indication of status and/or rank. Jewish teachers later adopted this trait from the ancient texts where RAB Shakeh, RAB Sardis, and RAB Mag, were ‘luminaries’ from the northern Assyrian Empire.

          Rabbi came to mean teacher. RAB or RAB prefixed to the rabbi’s name still means what it meant in ancient times: ‘great.’

    • kprofscrts

      If it is not written in the Bible it is not relevant! Jesus Birthday poses 3 problems!
      1: Mary and Joseph would not be able to travel to Bethlehem on camels during the winter season. Desert are cold as it is at night, yet to travel in December..no way. Not in those conditions

      2. There were farmers attending to their flock, they do this up until the autumn not winter!
      3. He is God! He says so himself: I am and the Father are one. He in all sense of realism, has no beginning! And no end! There is no birthdate! Mary was a vessel for this gift to the world. In spite of everything,…none of it happened when it was cold. None of the events or scriptures leading up to that part points towards winter. All points towards Spring Summer possibly Fall at best.

      None of it matters, if it was of importance, Jesus would have instructed his followers to write it in the Great Book of Truth! Which is Gods will. Let us not focus on birthdates, and since you are not able to prove the 25th of december, you are following a pagan tradition to the winter solstice by Mithra! you are following another idol! whether you know it or not!

      All of us Luke Warm Christians will be spewed from his mouth! Today is the day you need to change! Tomorrow may be too late! :idea:

    • 0773H

      The facts are that Rome tried to kill off Christianity for four hundred years. They could not so Emperor Constantine decided to control and convert it instead as many videos found will explain. He picked four books and ordered all other writings destroyed and that’s why we find them hidden away in caves. ………………………The current Roman religion at that time was the Sun God religion of–Mithra; 1200 BC, born of a virgin on Dec 25, had twelve disciples, performed miracles, dead for three days then resurrected. Jews have never excepted Jesus, even when it now reviled that he is named as their next messiah. They traveled to Bethlehem to pay taxes and that would never be in the middle of winter. ………………………………History of Sun God religion… ……………………….. …………………………….. . The sun stops moving north on Dec 21 and holds its orbit for three days and on Dec 25 it starts moving south and is considered born again. You have to wonder why we celebrate Jesus birthday on this date. Jesus was here for his father’s business, which is God (Yahweh) and his Sabbath day is Saturday, so why do we go to church on SUN- day. It is very possible that the Romans or the Catholic Church, through the New Testament altered the truth of Jesus to mimic this sun god religion as these others beings apparently have. Attis; 1200 BC; born of a virgin on Dec 25, then crucified and died for three days and then resurrected. Krishna; 900 BC born of a virgin, star in the east, performed miracles and was resurrected. Dionysus; 500 BC, born Dec 25, of a virgin, performed miracles, called king of kings, the alpha and omega and resurrected after death.

    • 0773H

      The facts are that Rome tried to kill off Christianity for four hundred years. They could not so Emperor Constantine decided to control and convert it instead as many videos found will explain. He picked four books and ordered all other writings destroyed and that’s why we find them hidden away in caves. ………… ….The current Roman religion at that time was the Sun God religion of–Mithra; 1200 BC, born of a virgin on Dec 25, had twelve disciples, performed miracles, dead for three days then resurrected. Jews have never accepted Jesus, even when it now reviled that he is named as their next messiah. Joseph( Ben Hurr); was Jewish royalty and traveled to Bethlehem to pay taxes and that would never be in the middle of winter. ………………………………History of Sun God religion… ……………………….. …………………………….. . The sun stops moving north on Dec 21 and holds its orbit for three days and on Dec 25 it starts moving south and is considered born again. You have to wonder why we celebrate Jesus birthday on this date. Jesus was here for his father’s business, which is God (Yahweh) and his Sabbath day is Saturday, so why do we go to church on SUN- day. It is very possible that the Romans or the Catholic Church, through the New Testament altered the truth of Jesus to mimic this sun god religion as these others beings apparently have. Attis; 1200 BC; born of a virgin on Dec 25, then crucified and died for three days and then resurrected. Krishna; 900 BC born of a virgin, star in the east, performed miracles and was resurrected. Dionysus; 500 BC, born Dec 25, of a virgin, performed miracles, called king of kings, the alpha and omega and resurrected after death.

    • 0773H

      The facts are that Rome tried to kill off Christianity for four hundred years, they could not, so Emperor Constantine decided to control and convert it instead as many videos found will explain. He picked four books and ordered all other writings of Christianity destroyed and that’s why we find them hidden away in caves for safe keeping. The current Roman religion at that time was the Sun God religion of–Mithra; 1200 BC, born of a virgin on Dec 25, had records. ……………………Some, but not all…..History of Sun God religion………………………….. ………………… The sun stops moving north on Dec 21 and holds its orbit for three days and on Dec 25 it starts moving south and is considered born again. You have to wonder why we celebrate Jesus birthday on this date. Jesus was here for his father’s business, which is God (Yahweh) and his Sabbath day is Saturday, so why do we go to church on SUN- day. It is very possible that the Romans or the Catholic Church, through the New Testament altered the truth of twelve disciples, performed miracles, dead for three days then resurrected. Jews have never accepted Jesus and would have no reference to him at all, even when it has now been reviled that he is named as their next messiah. Joseph (Ben Hurr) was an architect and royalty, he traveled to Bethlehem to pay taxes and that would never have been in the middle of winter, but in the spring according to Roman Jesus to mimic this sun god religion as these others beings apparently have. Attis; 1200 BC; born of a virgin on Dec 25, then crucified and died for three days and then resurrected. Krishna; 900 BC born of a virgin, star in the east, performed miracles and was resurrected. Dionysus; 500 BC, born Dec 25, of a virgin, performed miracles, called king of kings, the alpha and omega and resurrected after death.

    • 0773H

      The facts are that Rome tried to kill off Christianity for four hundred years, they could not, so Emperor Constantine decided to control and convert it instead as many videos found will explain. He picked four books and ordered all other writings of Christianity destroyed and that’s why we find them hidden away in caves for safe keeping. ……… The current Roman religion at that time was the Sun God religion of–Mithra; 1200 BC, born of a virgin on Dec 25, twelve disciples, performed miracles, dead for three days then resurrected. …………….. Some, but not all…..History of Sun God religion………………………….. ……………… . …… The sun stops moving south on Dec 21 and holds its orbit for three days and on Dec 25 it starts moving north and is considered born again. You have to wonder why we celebrate Jesus birthday on this date. Jesus was here for his father’s business, which is God (Yahweh) and his Sabbath day is Saturday, so why do we go to church on SUN- day. Other Sun God beings listed, were, Attis; 1200 BC; born of a virgin on Dec 25, then crucified and died for three days and then resurrected. Krishna; 900 BC born of a virgin, star in the east, performed miracles and was resurrected. Dionysus; 500 BC, born Dec 25, of a virgin, performed miracles, called king of kings, the alpha and omega and resurrected after death. Jews have never accepted Jesus and would have no reference to him at all, during the winter solstice, even when it has now been reviled by a holy Rabi; which has named him as their next messiah. Joseph (Ben Hurr) was an architect and royalty, he traveled to Bethlehem to pay taxes and that would never have been in the middle of winter, but at the start of the New Year which would be April or May, according to Adam’s calendar and according to Roman history.

    • 0773H

      The facts are that Rome tried to kill off Christianity for four hundred years, they could not, so Emperor Constantine decided to control and convert it instead as many videos found will explain. He picked four books and ordered all other writings of Christianity destroyed and that’s why we find them hidden away in caves for safe keeping. ……… The current Roman religion at that time was the Sun God religion of–Mithra; 1200 BC, born of a virgin on Dec 25, twelve disciples, performed miracles, dead for three days then resurrected. …………….. Some, but not all…..History of Sun God religion………………………….. ……………… . …… The sun stops moving south on Dec 21 and holds its orbit for three days and on Dec 25 it starts moving north and is considered born again. You have to wonder why we celebrate Jesus birthday on this date. Jesus was here for his father’s business, which is God (Yahweh) and his Sabbath day is Saturday, so why do we go to church on SUN- day. Other Sun God beings listed, were, Attis; 1200 BC; born of a virgin on Dec 25, then crucified and died for three days and then resurrected. Krishna; 900 BC born of a virgin, star in the east, performed miracles and was resurrected. Dionysus; 500 BC, born Dec 25, of a virgin, performed miracles, called king of kings, the alpha and omega and resurrected after death. Jews have never accepted Jesus and would have no reference to him at all, during the winter solstice, even when it has now been reviled by a holy Rabi; which has named him as their next messiah. Joseph (Ben Hurr) was an architect and royalty, he traveled to Bethlehem to pay taxes and that would never have been in the middle of winter, but at the start of the New Year which would be April or May, according to Adam’s calendar and according to Roman history.

    • holytext.org

      Jesus was born in November according to the Bible.

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