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THE BIG PICTURE

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THE CLOCK STARTED WITH THE FORMATION OF ISRAEL IN 1948. Most Christians understand that that clock is just minutes from midnight. Many things are happening now as all history converges towards a single point. Everybody is picking up pieces of the puzzle… new pieces are found and reported daily. What you do not want to do is to get fixated on an exciting piece and forget the puzzle:

  • Jonathon Cahn told us about the Harbinger and then educated us on the Shemitah.
  • John Hagee told us about the Blood Moons.
  • Russ Dizdar talks about a Black Awakening.
  • We hear about the Illuminati,
  • The Jesuit Pope’ The Last Pope,
  • The Vatican / Alien connection.
  • The Catholic roots of Islam,
  • ISIS, abroad, at home and across the southern border,
  • Race wars,
  • Jade Helm,
  • Turkey, the Ottoman Empire and Recep Tayyip Erdoğan as Antichrist,
  • Obama as Antichrist,
  • Pope Francis as the False Prophet,
  • FEMA Camps and coffins,
  • War in the Middle East,
  • Blatant Anti-Semitism,
  • Christian persecution, beheadings, crucifixions and burnings,
  • Muslim Brotherhood in the White House,
  • An ungodly rightwing reprisal against the Left,
  • Communism or Fascism to replace Americanism.
  • The New World Order,
  • Masons, Skull and Bones and Rhodes Scholars,
  • An Alien/Demon Savior…

I am not finished but I should stop. You could add more to the list and so could I. Some would want you to believe that all those things are independent of each other and that it is just an accident of nature that they are all happening now, at the same time. If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn…

This is the culmination of a plan laid out in the depths of Hell a very long time ago and the untiring labor of generations of loyal Masons, Skull and Boners, Illuminati, Witches, Warlocks and other Luciferians.

Their plan is an included, lesser part of a plan laid out in the heavens before the foundations of the earth were laid… The bigger plan allows for the lesser but is not damaged or diminished by it; God wins.

“After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language, which no one could number, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were robed in white with palm branches in their hands.”  Revelation 7:9

Before Lucifer was created, God saw this day. The plan has always been the same. God, starting with nothing will end up surrounded by a multitude of those who love him. Not one person or angel will be there because they have to be. If you and I are there, it will be because we want to be there more than anything. By the time we get there, we will have had every opportunity and every reason to betray him. We will have decided that He is worth more than our very lives. In the end, it will be worth it all.

All those who loved other things… those who loved their lives more than they loved God, will be in Hell with their god. Every one of them will be there because, having had the opportunity, they rejected their Creator.

All the evil listed above, every single point, represents an opportunity to reject God and walk away.

“Those who remain firm to the end will be saved.” Matthew 24:13

THAT IS THE BIG PICTURE…



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    • Pix

      “THE CLOCK STARTED WITH THE FORMATION OF ISRAEL IN 1948″

      Jews are the Pharisees, not the Israelites. It’s on a par with a bunch of delinquent Harry Potter fans taking over your home at gunpoint, and renaming it Hogwarts. Judaism is the post 70 CE invention of the 1st century BC political party of wealthy influential money lenders and traders called the Pharisees. They had branches in Rome, Greece, Turkey, Arabia, Syria, Judea, Egypt and elsewhere. They are doing the same today as they did back then, interfering in politics to line their own pockets, waging wars to loot other countries and keeping the power away from the poor, the sick and minorities… Deja Vu?

      • Pix

        You are worshipping the group of people (Pharisee/Jews) who rabble roused Rome into annihilating the Israelites. That is how warped and twisted their/your claim is.

        :wink: :lol:

        • Gus Fung

          You seem to be responding to your own posts Pix.

          Miss me?

        • Pix

          Gus Fung, it’s called an addendum. :wink: :lol:

        • Gus Fung

          I’ll show you an addendum you saucy little minx :wink:

        • Piggy Christian

          Pompous christo-CREEP ALERT!
          Pompous christo-CREEP ALERT!
          Pompous christo-CREEP ALERT!
          Pompous christo-CREEP ALERT!

          Calm down, now poor misguided (and pathetically brain-washed) Caucasian christo-CREEPS!!!!!

          For YOU need to just face the FACT that the imaginary white-skinned mangod NEVER even walked the face of this earth.

          After all, Christians do follow a Plagiarized religion!!!!!!!

          As one of the premier interpreters of Christian Scripture here on BIN, I want to thank my readers for your faith and belief in me to provide accurate answers to your questions about Christianity!

          So, without delay, let’s begin!

          CHRISTIANITY

          This is just a sample. There is awesome revealing and shocking information in the book: http://tinyurl.com/7cz2cwv

          MATTHEW:
          * Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30
          * Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14
          * Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32
          * Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. 11:20-24

          LUKE:
          * Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants “thrust down to hell” for not “receiving” his disciples. 10:10-15

          Christianity was based on previous myths:

          WHO WAS THIS?

          His birth in a grotto was attended by magi who followed a star from the East. They brought “gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh” and the newborn baby was adored by shepherds. ____, one of a trinity, stood on a rock, the emblem of the foundation of his religion, and was anointed with honey. After a last supper with Helios and 11 other companions, ____ was crucified on a cross, bound in linen, placed in a rock tomb and rose on the third day or around 25 March (the full moon at the spring equinox, a time now called Easter after the Babylonian goddess Ishtar). The fiery destruction of the universe was a major doctrine of ______ism-a time in which _____ promised to return in person to Earth and save deserving souls. Devotees of ____ partook in a sacred communion banquet of bread and wine.
          Archeologists have found as many as 718 monuments or statues of ____ at Ostia (near Rome-Author) and close to 300 in Rome. A ____ shrine was uncovered under St. Paul’s cathedral.____ was a god, a son of a god, born of a virgin on December 25.

          WHO WAS THIS?

          His name was Mithra, the messiah of the first kings of the Persian Empire around 400 B.C. (600 B.C. according to another source.)
          Statue of MITHRAS, ancient Persian god of light who was adopted into the Roman pantheon. Shown wearing the Phrygian cap. Louvre, Paris

          HOW CHRISTIANITY WAS INVENTED

          Emperor Constantine

          Christianity is a copycat religion created by Emperor Constantine (for political purposes) based upon a myth (The Persian savior god Mithra, crucified 600 B.C. ? 400 B.C.?), which was based on other similar myths, all the way back to Chrishna of India (a mythical god that some claim was “crucified” or violently died around 1200 B.C.). There were 16 mythical crucifixions before Christ. The belief in the crucifixion of Gods was prevalent in various oriental or heathen countries long prior to the reported crucifixion of Christ. Of the 16 crucifixions, most were born of a virgin and about half of them on December 25th.
          There were too many religions in Rome in 325 A.D. A Council was called in an endeavor to amalgamate the many religions of the Roman Empire into one. Christianity plagiarized older myths and legends historicized to suit the Roman Catholic Church while combining the numerous religions existing at the time (Krishna, Horus, Mithraism, Osirian, Isis, and many other mystery religions). For unity and to stop all the conflicts between the numerous religions,

          Christianity was INVENTED.

          Eusebius (Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine “Father of Church History“) attended the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. and was a friend of Emperor Constantine, who also attended, and who made the keynote speech.

          Bishop Eusebius

          Constantine instructed Eusebius to organize the compilation of a uniform collection of new writings developed from primary aspects of the religious texts submitted at the council. Eusebius has been described as follows: Jacob Burckhardt (19th century cultural historian) dismissed Eusebius as “the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity”. He has been also described as ” a political theologian”. He favored doctoring his history in his own words to “be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity”. Edward Gibbon (18th century historian –“The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”) dismissed his testimony on the number of martyrs and impugned his honesty. (To be clear on this matter, I say don’t trust Eusebius’s reports of the Apostles or how the Apostles died, and be suspicious of all of his writings – Author Samuel Butler)

          Eusebius then arranged for scribes to produce fifty sumptuous copies to be written onparchment in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable form, byprofessional scribes thoroughly accomplished in their art (ibid.).
          These orders, said Eusebius, were followed by the immediate execution of the work itself we sent him [Constantine] magnificently and elaborately bound volumes of three-fold and four-fold forms (Life of Constantine, vol. iv, p.36). They were the New Testimonies, and this is the first mention (c. 331) of the New Testament in the historical record. With his instructions fulfilled, Constantine then decreed that the New Testimonies would thereafter be called the word of the Roman Saviour God (Life of Constantine, vol. iii, p. 29) and official to all presbyters sermonising in the Roman Empire.
          He then ordered earlier presbyterial manuscripts and the records of the council burnt and declared that any man found concealing writings should be stricken off from his shoulders (beheaded).

          NONE OF THESE 50 NEW TESTAMENTS EXIST TODAY OR ARE ADMITTED TO EXISTING!

          THIS NEW TESTAMENT WAS THE OFFICIAL BOOK OF THE NEW UNIFIED RELIGION OF CONSTANTINE NOT THE BIBLE!

          ALL OTHER BOOKS TO BE BURNED ,THAT WOULD INCLUDE THE TORAH/OLD TESTAMENT

          IT INCLUDED BURNING THE GREAT LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA IN EGYPT 391 AD

          In 391 AD, Christian Emperor Theodosius I ordered the destruction of all pagan (“heathen” they were also called) temples. The Christian Patriarch Theophilus of
          Alexandria (Egypt) complied with this request. Seizing this opportunity, Theophilus exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt, the Serapeum also he showed full of extravagant superstitions, the commander-in-chief of the troops in Egypt, assisted Theophilus in demolishing the heathen temples then he destroyed the Serapeum. -Historia Ecclesiastica

          The Serapeum housed the Great Library of Alexandria.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_alexandria

          Why there are no records of Jesus Christ.

          It is not possible to find in any legitimate religious or historical writings compiled between the beginning of the first century and well into the fourth century any reference to Jesus Christ and the spectacular events that the Church says accompanied his life. This confirmation comes from Frederic Farrar (1831-1903) of Trinity
          College, Cambridge:

          “It is amazing that history has not embalmed for us even one certain or definite saying or circumstance in the life of the Saviour of mankind … there is no statement in all history that says anyone saw Jesus or talked with him. Nothing in history is more astonishing than the silence of contemporary writers about events relayed in the four Gospels.” (The Life of Christ, Frederic W. Farrar, Cassell, London, 1874)

          This situation arises from a conflict between history and New Testament narratives. Dr Tischendorf made this comment: “We must frankly admit that we have no source of information with respect to the life of Jesus Christ other than ecclesiastic writings assembled during the fourth century.” (Codex Sinaiticus, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, British Library, London)

          There is an explanation for those hundreds of years of silence: the construct of Christianity did not begin until after the first quarter of the fourth century, and that is why Pope Leo X (d. 1521) called Christ a “fable” (Cardinal Bembo: His Letters…, op. cit.), and later Pope Paul III expressed similar sentiments, saying that there was no valid document to demonstrate the existence of Christ. He confessed that Jesus never existed, adding that he was no other than the sun, adored in its Mithraic sect ..”

          My final conclusion, judeo-christo-CREEPS, is the character known as “Jesus” NEVER existed.

          “Jews are born with raging fanaticism in their hearts… I would not be in the least bit surprised if these people would not some day become deadly to the human race.” — (Lettres de Memmius a Ciceron, 1771) – VOLTAIRE (Francois Marie Arouet) 18th century French philosopher.

          I am fairly sure that “christian” is a kind way of saying retard :!: :!:
          :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
          Also, :idea: :idea: christo-CREEPS, Please give up all beliefs and switch to critical thinking. :wink: :wink:

          Consider, christo-CREEPS, that Jesus answers all unknowns…
          And if you don’t accept our lord and saviour jesus… I kill you! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Nothing personal!
          AND, jesus does love you, unconditionally! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

          christo-CREEPS, seriously, I’d sooner mainline speedballs into a vein in my cock than read ANY plagiarized judeo-christo-CRIMINAL all male wrote BOOK OF INSANE Babble!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
          :razz: :razz: :razz:

        • Gus Fung

          Pix and I don’t need you interfering Christopher you pigglet.

          Are you just putting in time now before your retirement is official?

          It’s like you have nothing left in the tank.

          P.S. Isn’t your BBQ religion recently INVENTED and DERIVATIVE and totally NONSENSICAL?

          Just saying.

      • Damien

        Then Arab Palestinians are the Pharisees too

        • Pix

          Nope, they are just Palestinian, and mostly Muslim. They are victims, they have no military at all, the average age is just 17, meaning most of the population are very young children.

        • Damien

          If they can be Philistine I think they can be Pharisees.

    • Dr. Rice

      “Who has ever seen or heard of anything as strange as this? Has a nation ever been born in a single day? Has a country ever come forth in a mere moment? But by the time Jerusalem’s birth pains begin, the baby will be born; the nation will come forth.” Isaiah 66:8

      Some of you are very much against the State of Israel. To be against the State of Israel is to stand against the God of Israel. There seem to be a number of people making a name for themselves by proclaiming that God is speaking of the “Real Jews” all over the world when He speaks of Israel in the end times and that the State of Israel is somehow evil, full of fake Jews, and certainly not the Israel of God…this gives them the “right to spout evil and hateful things about Israel and Jews. If you are being drawn into that, consider here just a few of the verses in which God speaks about the end times State of Israel, how He will bring it to life, how He will bless it, how He will cause the desert to blossom beneath their feet and how He will trample underfoot every Nation that stands against the State of Israel. Read these verses and note that God speaks clearly of a people and the specific plot of land that He gave to Abraham and How He will keep His covenant. After you have read these verses, consider again that the God who created the Heavens and the Earth, the God who lends you the very next breath… that God has promised to Bless those who Bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel. Also note that nothing ties God’s support of Israel to what you personally think. Your thoughts are quite irrelevant. God promised… God made a covenant, God said that He would bring back the Nation of Israel and that He would cause Jews from every corner of the earth to return to the Land that He gave them. God does not care what you think. God will do what God has said He will do. These verses are just a small sampling…

      “Who has ever seen or heard of anything as strange as this? Has a nation ever been born in a single day? Has a country ever come forth in a mere moment? But by the time Jerusalem’s birth pains begin, the baby will be born; the nation will come forth.” Isaiah 66:8
      “He will raise a flag among the nations for Israel to rally around. He will gather the scattered people of Judah from the ends of the earth.” Isaiah 11:12

      “‘Do not be afraid, for I am with you. I will gather you and your children from east and west and from north and south. I will bring my sons and daughters back to Israel from the distant corners of the earth. All who claim me as their God will come, for I have made them for my glory. It was I who created them.” Isaiah 43:5-7

      “‘But the time is coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when people who are taking an oath will no longer say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who rescued the people of Israel from the land of Egypt.’ Instead, they will say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the people of Israel back to their own land from the land of the north and from all the countries to which he had exiled them.’ For I will bring them back to this land that I gave their ancestors.” Jeremiah 16:14-15

      “For the time is coming when I will restore the fortunes of my people of Israel and Judah. I will bring them home to this land that I gave to their ancestors, and they will possess it and live here again. I, the Lord, have spoken!” Jeremiah 30:3

      “I will surely bring my people back again from all the countries where I will scatter them in my fury. I will bring them back to this very city and let them live in peace and safety.” Jeremiah 32:37

      “Therefore, give the exiles this message from the Sovereign Lord: Although I have scattered you in the countries of the world, I will be a sanctuary to you during your time in exile. I, the Sovereign Lord, will gather you back from the nations where you were scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel once again.” Ezekiel 11:16-17

      “When I bring you home from exile, you will be as pleasing to me as an offering of perfumed incense. And I will display my holiness in you as all the nations watch. Then when I have brought you home to the land I promised your ancestors, you will know that I am the Lord.” Ezekiel 20:41-42

      “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: The people of Israel will again live in their own land, the land I gave my servant Jacob. For I will gather them from the distant lands where I have scattered them. I will reveal to the nations of the world my holiness among my people. They will live safely in Israel and build their homes and plant their vineyards. And when I punish the neighboring nations that treated them with contempt, they will know that I am the Lord their God.” Ezekiel 28:25-26

      “I will be like a shepherd looking for his scattered flock. I will find my sheep and rescue them from all the places to which they were scattered on that dark and cloudy day. I will bring them back home to their own land of Israel from among the peoples and nations. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel and by the rivers in all the places where people live. Yes, I will give them good pastureland on the high hills of Israel. There they will lie down in pleasant places and feed in lush mountain pastures.” Ezekiel 34:12-14

      “And give them this message from the Sovereign Lord: I will gather the people of Israel from among the nations. I will bring them home to their own land from the places where they have been scattered. I will unify them into one nation in the land. One king will rule them all; no longer will they be divided into two nations.” Ezekiel 37:21-22

      “So now the Sovereign Lord says: I will end the captivity of my people; I will have mercy on Israel, for I am jealous for my holy reputation! They will accept responsibility for their past shame and treachery against me after they come home to live in peace and safety in their own land. And then no one will bother them or make them afraid. When I bring them home from the lands of their enemies, my holiness will be displayed to the nations. Then my people will know that I am the Lord their God – responsible for sending them away to exile and responsible for bringing them home. I will leave none of my people behind. And I will never again turn my back on them, for I will pour out my Spirit upon them, says the Sovereign Lord.” Ezekiel 39:25-29

      “In that day I will restore the fallen kingdom of David. It is now like a house in ruins, but I will rebuild its walls and restore its former glory. And Israel will possess what is left of Edom and all the nations I have called to be mine. I, the Lord, have spoken, and I will do these things… The time will come,’ says the Lord, ‘when the grain and grapes will grow faster than they can be harvested. Then the terraced vineyards on the hills of Israel will drip with sweet wine! I will bring my exiled people of Israel back from distant lands, and they will rebuild their ruined cities and live in them again. They will plant vineyards and gardens; they will eat their crops and drink their wine. I will firmly plant them there in the land I have given them,’ says the Lord your God. ‘Then they will never be uprooted again.’” Amos 9:11-15

      “This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: Once again old men and women will walk Jerusalem’s streets with their canes and will sit together in the city squares. And the streets of the city will be filled with boys and girls at play. This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: All this may seem impossible to you now, a small remnant of God’s people. But is it impossible for me? says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies says: You can be sure that I will rescue my people from the east and from the west. I will bring them home again to live safely in Jerusalem. They will be my people, and I will be faithful and just toward them as their God.” Zechariah 8:4-8

      IF YOU HAVE READ THIS FAR… YOU MIGHT WANT TO FALL ON YOUR KNEES AND APOLOGIZE TO THE GOD OF ISRAEL!

      • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

        You add to the Word. Show us please ‘STATE’ of Israel in Scripture.

        What do we find rather?

        (Perhaps you missed this chapter from Ezekiel, Doctor. ALL of chapter 36 deals with this question most specifically.)

        “Thus sayeth the Lord GOD; because the Enemy hath said against you (Israel), Aha, EVEN THE ANCIENT HIGH PLACES ARE IN OUR POSSESSION:

        “Therefore prophecy and say, Thus sayeth the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be A POSSESSION unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are AN INFAMY OF THE PEOPLE…

        “…which became a prey and a derision to the residue of the heathen round about…

        “Therefore, thus sayeth the Lord GOD; surely in the fire of My jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against ALL IDUMEA (EDOM) which have APPOINTED MY LAND INTO THEIR POSSESSION with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds TO CAST IT OUT FOR A PREY.”

        So we see here identified for us that before the end of the age, not only is Israel an occupied territory, but we have the occupant named. Who are they? They are EDOM. They are Esau. They are NOT Jacob.

        Following verses in this chapter make it ABUNDANTLY clear that when God’s people Israel return to their land, by God’s Hand (not by the UN or the UK or the house of Red Shield); that NO ONE will ever grieve those people EVER AGAIN.

        This entire chapter leaves no room for your interpretation, Doctor.

        Moreover, we see from the above that — “with despiteful minds to cast it out for a prey” – this State of Israel will almost certainly be destroyed. If and when that happens, there will be no shortage of believers whose weak faith and poor grasp of the written Word will be irreparably shaken. They will in that day believe the Bible to have been proven invalid, plainly-worded chapters like Ezekiel 36 notwithstanding.

        Be careful what you sow, Doctor.

        • Dr. Rice

          Your understanding of Scripture is twisted and demonic. That you do not know Jesus Christ nor the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is patently obvious. You quote Scripture exactly as did Lucifer when he tempted the Greatest Jew, Jesus the Messiah in the wilderness… You seek to deceive by twisting Scripture to bring others under the same curse that hangs over your head.

          “Sheol below is eager to greet your coming. He stirs up the spirits of the departed for you– all the rulers of the earth. He makes all the kings of the nations rise from their thrones.” (Isaiah 14:9)

        • Scanner Darko

          Rice, you should be embarrassed to call yourself a doctor. The Scripture Walter provided is perfectly clear and there is nothing demonic about it. The Word speaks for itself.

          Are you trying to bend the Word to fit your belief? Bad move, Rice.

          There is ZERO Biblical support for Israel (the STATE) to be occupying the Promised Land. The covenant was broken.

          Do you actually have any Biblical support to counter Walter’s argument or are you just going to be lazy and continue to use personal rationality and misquote Scripture to boost your feeling of self-importance.

          Honesty, Rice. Be honest.

          Before you go around accusing others of being demonic while you add to the word with statements like “You quote Scripture exactly as did Lucifer”, use Scripture to support your position on the modern state of Israel.

          It’s that simple.

          No need to complicate the matter by accusing one party of an abomination when you’re the only one who has been caught adding on to or taking away from the Word. You’ve got a habit of running away whenever you get accused of false teaching.

          Let’s see if you can show some spine and stand up for the Word you claim to believe in.

        • Mayhem

          I agree, Walter, that the modern State of Israel being glassed over would cause many a lukewarm theist to fall away from the faith. The rebellion, even, that Paul spoke of in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3.

        • Dr. Rice

          Scanner Darko… your name says it all. Mayhem is a catchword for Satan. That Mayhem calls Scanner Darko Walter is evidence a jury would convict on. The two of you are in cahoots with each other and the Devil. Those who hate Israel, hate the God of Israel. Lucifer and both of you, hate Israel. I would say that that puts all three of you together in a manner that would cause a prosecutor to invoke the Rico Act. Look at the picture Scanner put by his name and look at the Satanic names you have both chosen to use and tell me why any Born Again Child of the Living God would believe for a minute that you either know or believe the Bible as the Word of God. Jesus said, “By their fruits you shall know them… your fruit, guys, is rotten, putrid and it stinks of fire, sulfur and brimstone…

        • Scanner Darko

          You’re a joke.

          Shut up with your imaginary accusations or find the Scripture.

          Right back at you:

          “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.”

          Someone is lying here. Who’s it going to be Rice?

        • Dr. Rice

          Look at your picture and your name… When you place a demonic picture next to your post and choose a demonic dark name to use with your posts, that pretty well says it all…

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          Rice,

          You’ve just marked yourself for a craven by responding to my post the way you have. Thus, I will not be expecting much in the way of additional dialogue from you relative to any questions I have about your statement. Perhaps you lack even the ability to offer any meaningful answer – to the board and those reading your posts, or even to yourself in the quiet confines of your own mind. Be that as it may, the questions are these:

          How do you explain Ezekiel chapter 36?

          When in history did Edom ever possess the land of Israel?

          The Word makes it perfectly clear in this chapter that once the people of God are brought back into the land:

          “…I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings…”

          But your problems have just begun, Rice:

          “For I will take you from among the heathen and gather you from ALL COUNTRIES”

          When did that ever happen?

          “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit…”

          Do you imagine that applies to the unclean and profane people, the MESSIAH DENIERS, living in the land at the present?

          “And ye shall keep my Judgments and do them.”

          Again, are we expected to believe that this, as you suggest that it does, applies to the people living in the land at the present?

          “And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.”

          The State of Israel is going to be destroyed. This happens after:

          “And they shall say, This land that was desolate has become like the Garden of Eden…”

          Who has said that about the land as we know it today? None have said.

          “…and the waste and desolate and ruined cites are become fenced and inhabited.”

          Philistia is not Edom. And these promises do not apply and have not come to light to and for the people living in the land.

          Your explanation of Ezekiel 36, Doctor, or the tokens of a faint heart, will now grace this page.

        • Gus Fung

          Dr Rice,

          Quote: “Jesus said, “By their fruits you shall know them…”

          And what would Jesus think of “the fruit” reaped by the State that calls itself Israel?

          Perhaps you haven’t had the honor yet of knowing the Lord to answer that honestly.

          Quote: “You quote Scripture exactly as did Lucifer when he tempted the Greatest Jew, Jesus the Messiah in the wilderness…”

          You do realize that it was Satan and not Lucifer that tempted the Messiah?

          Quote: “Those who hate Israel, hate the God of Israel. Lucifer and both of you, hate Israel.”

          You seem to be mixing up the antagonists in the story again but I would like to offer this parting thought for you Dr…. “The adversary” loves the state of Israel… and he loves men like you who’s mind is narrower than the righteous path.

        • Mayhem

          No, Dr Rice, i was addressing WALTER but yes i’m acquainted with Scanner Darko and what you think you see is just the way the comments nest. It’s got nothing to do with me and i try to let folk know whom i’m talking about by using their name. All good?

        • Simply Rivkah

          Wow, nice article but you seem to have quite the rabid followers commenting here. Antisemitic to the bone while denying it in one of the more mundane ways. Especially evident by the fact that they only chose to respond to that SMALL portion of your article. Walter, since you seem to be the ‘leader’ amongst those here let me ask you first if you realize that Ezekiel 36 is speaking of Israel being restored from their Babylonian exile that took place in the 6th century BCE? As for your question that you seem to be holding up as ‘proof’ of your hypothesis that the people there now aren’t truly the Jewish people, because you ask/say “when has Edom ever occupied Israel?” Try again, because if you go back to Ezekiel 35, where Edom was being addressed, specifically 35:5, you might be interested to know that that took place in 586 BC. At the time of the Babylonian conquest. Please refer to Obadiah 11-14 as well. Ezekiel 36 is definitely in the double prophecy group of prophecies though, and yes it took place again in 1948 enmass. Although there was ALWAYS a Jewish presence in ‘Palestine’ throughout the ages, only Jerusalem was completely destroyed in 70 AD, and they actually began migrating back in the 1800′s. And yes they came, and continue to come, from all four corners of the world.

          Where you made the statement, asked the question whether or not we think that the Adversary couldn’t plant those ‘fake Jews’ there, or control the UN into making them a nation again, I say NO he can’t. And that is not only Biblical but speaks to the power of the G-D of the universe. He is Sovereign over all the earth. “G-D reigns over the nations” Psalms 47:8, “He deposes kings and raises up others..” Daniel 2:21, “He exalts and brings low..” Psalms 75:6-7.

          As to your judgement on those who still have veiled eyes, please refer to Romans 11. And read on in Ezekiel 37, you will see that their awakening is being done in stages. Not all at once, although it’s true that the majority of the remnant may remain blinded until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. You may be interested to know that currently there are approximately 20,000 Messianic Jews in Israel and upwards of 350,000 worldwide. It’s happening, as was foretold. Which side do you want to be on, those who are blessed, or cursed? You need to (read Romans 11 again) be thankful that they were blinded so that we could be grafted in. If you boast otherwise how quickly will G-D cut you out?

        • am123

          Fellas,

          In the words of the philosopher Rodney King, “can’t we all just get along”?

          Dr. Rice, thank you for standing for Israel. I believe you are correct on this issue and it is not a popular stand here on BIN and so I applaud you for your stand. However, having said that, there is no need for the knee-jerk reaction calling WALTER and company (SD+Mayhem) demonic. That won’t lead to a fruitful discussion now will it? Wouldn’t it be better if we all just hashed it out using the Word as our guide? There are certain IDs here on BIN Dr. Rice that are deserving of the demonic label, but these fellas don’t fall into that category. Can’t we just slow down here a minute and speak about the Word instead of speaking about each other?

          Here I find myself in the highly unusual—though not precedent setting—position of arguing against BEEFY WALTER. Me and Scanner went a couple rounds on this topic, but I’ll be glad to get some of Wally’s answers to my questions.

          But before I get into it with Wally, I want to address those who Dr. Rice alluded to, those who believe the Jews in Israel are fake Jews and use that as an excuse to paint with a broad brush indiscriminately and call all Jews everywhere evil and who use the Zionist meme to attribute seemingly every evil act or problem in the world to the Jews—name whatever problem you want, and they’ll lay it at the feet of the Jews. To them I say, when you include the twelves tribes of Israel, the olive tree of the Lord, in your diatribes against the Jews, you are speaking against those which the Lord has chosen for Himself:

          “For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.”
          — Deuteronomy 7:6

          So when you come against Biblical Israel, you are coming against the Most High and when you come against the Most High, then when the Most High opens up the place where his weapons are stored, you will be utterly destroyed, for there is work to be done in Babylon:

          “The Lord hath opened his armoury, and hath brought forth the weapons of his indignation: for this is the work of the Lord God of hosts in the land of the Chaldeans.”
          —JER 50:25

          An army is coming, along with the Most High, to destroy Babylon:

          “They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.”
          — Isaiah 13:5

          Let it not be said I did not warn you of the consequences of railing against the Most High and the Israel of the Bible, who are loved because of the Patriarchs, for when you come against them, make no mistake about it, you are coming against the God of the Bible and will end up in that eternally raging inferno known as the second death, the lake of fire (see REV 21:8).

          So now, to get into the Word with Wally, who said:

          “Show us please ‘STATE’ of Israel in Scripture”

          Is that not a matter of semantics Wally, like Walter vs. Wally for example? For is not the “state” of Israel the same as the “country” of Israel?

          “country of the inheritance of Israel”
          —Judges 20:6

          “And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers”
          — Ezekiel 20:42

          State, country, whatever you want to call it, isn’t the bottom line the land promised to tribes of Israel and the olive tree of Israel—isn’t that what we’re talking about here? Is that not what Dr. Rice is talking about when he says “To be against the State of Israel is to stand against the God of Israel.”? Mustn’t New Testament believers tread carefully when it comes to Jews and Israel, for Paul said:

          15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

          16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

          17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

          18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

          19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

          20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

          21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

          —ROM 11:15-21

          One thing I want to ask you Walter is where or how do you fill in the very large hole in your eschatology that MUST be filled if you go by the Word? I’m talking about the numerous prophecies about the Jews and Israel that must be fulfilled on THIS SIDE of the Second Coming. For example:

          13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

          14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

          15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

          —Romans 11:13-15

          25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

          26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

          27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

          28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.

          29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

          30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

          31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

          —Romans 11:25-31

          Matthew 24:30 tells us all tribes of the earth will weep for the Son of Man, and that includes the Jews:

          “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

          — Zechariah 12:10

          And then there is what Jesus said here:

          20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

          21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

          22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
          —Luke 21:20-22

          Is not Jesus talking about or talking to Jewish believers in the land of Israel in the above verses? Given that we are in the end times, and given that Jesus spoke the above in relation to the end times, and given that there is currently a state of Israel and Jews inhabit Jerusalem and Israel, how do you reconcile your belief that the current state of Israel is not a fulfillment of God’s promise given these things? That is, in your view, in order for these words of Jesus to be fulfilled, does the current state of Israel have to be dissolved and brought about again in another way? In other words, if right now is point A, and point Z is the above verses from Luke, then what points need to happen in between to get from point A to point Z?

          I would like to keep the real Jews/fake Jews thing as a separate discussion, but even if you don’t believe the Jews in Israel today are real Jews and the real Jews are scattered around the globe, can they not end up being gathered to Israel by a modern day Cyrus for example, fulfilling Scripture? I see the Book of Revelation as a 10,000 foot overview or outline of the end times. And some of the details are augmented or filled in by the Old Testament prophets, who spoke of the same events and time period Revelation speaks of. For example, chapter 11 of Revelation speaks of the two witnesses, or two olive trees before the Lord, and we can get further information about them from Zechariah. Likewise, Revelation speaks of the New Jerusalem, as does Isaiah and other prophets. So we of course have to examine the Bible as a whole when talking about for example, the rider on the white horse in Revelation—this conqueror with a bow, who is he? Follow along with me here if you will:

          “And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.”
          —REV 6:2

          The prophet Isaiah speaks of a righteous man with a sword and a bow, who looks a whole lot like a conqueror:

          2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow.

          3 He pursued them, and passed safely; even by the way that he had not gone with his feet.

          4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.

          —Isaiah 41:2-4

          The Lord has wrought this and is with this one called “the last”. And this one who is the last is indeed a conqueror, for further in this same chapter, Isaiah says:

          25 I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay.

          26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.

          —Isaiah 41:25-26

          And then in chapter 45 of Isaiah, I talks about Cyrus. What if Cyrus is a forerunner or type of this one who is “the last”, this conqueror? In chapter 46 of Isaiah, the Lord says this:

          9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

          10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

          11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

          —Isaiah 46:9-11

          Notice in verse 10 above, the Lord says He is declaring the END from the beginning (showing only He is God). So in Isaiah, we have this description of a righteous man, with a bow, who goes forth and treads upon the nations, and he is the last (who shall be first), in the end times, foretold by the Lord, and the Lord is with him. So where is this one spoken of by Isaiah spoken of in the end times script known as the Book of Revelation? For anyone interested in more on that, see:
          /prophecy/2014/02/the-mystery-of-god-in-the-book-of-revelation-the-two-witnesses-the-manchild-and-the-destroyer-as-you-have-never-heard-them-spoken-of-before-2458894.html

          What if the one spoken of by Isaiah is the rider on the white horse in Revelation and he gathers the Jews from around the world to the land of Israel and the temple is rebuilt? Does not such a scenario fit the Scriptures?

          What I’m trying to get at BEEF, is given the end time prophecies about Israel, and given that we are in the end times, I have a hard time understanding how your scenario fits in with the eschatology of so many Scriptures dealing with the restoration of the land of Israel on THIS SIDE of the Second Coming. You bring up chapter 36 of Ezekiel, which includes this:

          24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

          25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

          26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

          27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

          28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

          —EZEK 36:24-28

          As you know, that is talking about the new Covenant. And in verse 11 of this chapter, you’ve got the LORD saying He will settle them in the land and these verses above tell us they will find their Messiah. This falls perfectly in line with the mystery Paul tells us about in chapter 11 of Romans, that the blindness of the Jews is not permanent and they have not fallen to their ruin but will come to know Jesus as Messiah. So where do you fit in chapter 11 of Romans into your eschatology?

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          Rivkah wrote:

          “…let me ask you first if you realize that Ezekiel 36 is speaking of Israel being restored from their Babylonian exile that took place in the 6th century BCE?”

          If that is so then who are the Edomites that had to be punished by the Most High for being in the land? And if your assertion is true, then Scripture is false, wherein it is recorded that NONE will come against the people Israel once they are restored to their inheritance, according to the original allotments and in an even BETTER state then their original state of being, when led across Jordan by Joshua. How say you?

          But you say again:

          “Ezekiel 36 is definitely in the double prophecy group of prophecies though, and yes it took place again in 1948 enmass.”

          Are those people in the land today free from harassment? Are they without prosecution from without? Are they completely free from outside threats and in all ways protected from without? Not even close. Yet Scripture is perfectly clear on the point. A point which those who advocate for your argument consistently ignore.

          “…only Jerusalem was completely destroyed in 70 AD….”

          Jerusalem has never been destroyed as Messiah said it would be. NO stone shall be left standing upon another. Most evidently and undoubtedly, this has not occurred. Will you make Messiah a liar?

          “I say NO he (the Adversary) can’t (counterfeit Israel). And that is not only Biblical but speaks to the power of the G-D of the universe.”

          In what way is your assertion biblical? In what way is the god of this world prevented from doing what he does? The Adversary answers to the Most High, to be sure, but the Most High has said promised that He would send onto the Earth delusion of the first magnitude. There is nothing in Scripture which suggests the Adversary cannot do what he has done, which is to institute an illegitimate State of Israel. His very mark adorns their flag. It is the banner of the Enemy himself which flies over that land.

          “…their awakening (those with veiled eyes) is being done in stages.”

          Of course it is. I have no hatred for the people in that land. Even though I know many of the things their leaders do and some of the evil that is in their hearts. It is little different from Catholicism. Of course I do not harbor hatred for the Catholic ‘faithful.’ Deception is something we all bear responsibility for, because to a greater or lesser degree, we are all deceived.

          “You may be interested to know that currently there are approximately 20,000 Messianic Jews in Israel and upwards of 350,000 worldwide.”

          The vast majority of Messianic Jews are rabbinic Jews who say they believe in ‘A’ messiah. This is far from the mark. Talmudism and Kabbalism are poisons which make it impossible to follow the Messiah of Israel wherever He leads. Very few Messianic Jews are standing in the Way. Paul said there would be more than one ‘Jesus.’ Guess which one wears a kippah, a tallit and tefillin.

          “If you boast otherwise how quickly will G-D cut you out?”

          As I expect you are – a Messianic Jew? Hebrew Roots? If you see me boast, then it is your duty to rebuke me. And please do. I notice you mangle the word ‘God’ by obscuring it when you write it. This is a wholly rabbinical practice which stems either from misplaced reverence or from outright opposition to the Most High. Nowhere in Scripture are we instructed to modify His Name or Appellation. It is a tradition of the rabbis to do so. More time spent studying the Word of the Most High, and concerning yourself with HIS INSTRUCTIONS, and less time spent hearing the words of Jewish authorities, might leave you in a better state to make these judgments accordingly. That would be my suggestion to you. And I say again what I said to the Doctor – Ezekiel 36 leaves NO room for your interpretation. Though not exclusively, owing to the often dual nature of prophecy, Ezekiel 36 speaks of end-of-the-age prophecy. Once the land has been destroyed utterly, Israel returns – ALL Israel – never to be harassed or annoyed or assaulted by mankind again.

          The Word is true Rivkah.

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          am123 wrote:

          “[W]hen you come against Biblical Israel, you are coming against the Most High and when you come against the Most High…”

          That’s what what I say, and now say again, cannot be understated, nor should it be ignored. The decision to accuse this people of being illegitimate is not a decision lightly reached. The brethren who stand together on this point are well aware of the many adjurations in Scripture not to oppose the people of the Most High.

          “Let it not be said I did not warn you of the consequences of railing against the Most High and the Israel of the Bible…”

          Your warnings are as nothing in the face of what is written. Those of us who believe the ‘State’ are not His people, do not believe we are railing against the Most High or against His people when we accuse that ‘State’ of being illegitimate. Please let that point find its way through to you. We believe in Scripture and we believe in His Word. His Word is true. Therefore, if the ‘State’ are not His people, then someone else IS. It is these OTHER people against whom we dare not speak. Israel remains disbursed. ALL Israel.

          “Is that not a matter of semantics Wally, like Walter vs. Wally for example? For is not the “state” of Israel the same as the “country” of Israel?”

          It is not semantics. I objected to specific wording in the Doctor’s post. Neither is it semantics when we object to using the word ‘Jew’ interchangeably with the word ‘Israel.’ He who conflates those words does so in error.

          “Mustn’t New Testament believers tread carefully when it comes to Jews and Israel…”

          Most carefully indeed.

          “One thing I want to ask you Walter is where or how do you fill in the very large hole in your eschatology that MUST be filled if you go by the Word? I’m talking about the numerous prophecies about the Jews and Israel that must be fulfilled on THIS SIDE of the Second Coming.”

          Very simply. The prophecies have YET to occur. I do not believe that His return is imminent. I believe we are no closer to that Event then perhaps a few decades. I believe technology will play an indispensable role in the rising Beat Kingdom, and I believe the state of technology can help us to glean an accurate image of the true prophetic trajectory. The prophecies will all be fulfilled. The Enemy knows prophecy and, as such, should be counted on to counterfeit as much of it as he is able. Even so, the State of Israel should be examined on its own merits, to see whether or not it is authentic. That entity fails to withstand any form of biblical test. The entity is therefore inauthentic.

          “Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.”

          I believe there are certain authentic Jews living in the land, but I do not believe the Ashkenazim are authentic. I would hope for mercy even for the Ashkenazim, the vast majority of whom I expect are among the most severely deluded.

          “Matthew 24:30 tells us all tribes of the earth will weep for the Son of Man, and that includes the Jews…”

          And it is my assertion that Judah is as obscured from view as most all other tribes. Even Judah does not know who Judah is.

          am123 wrote:

          “And then there is what Jesus said here:

          “20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

          “21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

          “22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
          —Luke 21:20-22

          “Is not Jesus talking about or talking to Jewish believers in the land of Israel in the above verses?”

          Why would he be talking solely about Jews? Did He say so? No. He said, very specifically: “THOSE who ARE IN Judea…” Does this eliminate, in your mind, the possibility for my argument’s validity? THOSE who ARE IN Judea could be anyone. And it most certainly could include authentic Jehudim.

          “Given that we are in the end times…”

          I do not consent that this is a ‘given.’ It is nothing more than a possibility. A possibility which I have suggested above is not entirely accurate.

          “…how do you reconcile your belief that the current state of Israel is not a fulfillment of God’s promise given these things?”

          I believe that question is now answered most clearly by me. If not, please say so.

          “…does the current state of Israel have to be dissolved and brought about again in another way?”

          Have I really been so unclear on this point? It is my contention that the present ‘State’ of Israel will be completely and totally destroyed (I’m thinking in terms of mega-tonnage and the utter destruction of ALL the ancient structures). At some point AFTER that event, the land will be cleansed and restored by the actual re-united kingdom – the House of Israel and the House of David restored to BETTER than their former glory.

          “…can they (the real ‘Jews’) not end up being gathered to Israel by a modern day Cyrus for example, fulfilling Scripture?”

          Only after the total destruction of the land – not to mention those living in it who do not flee, as Instructed.
          If there are areas of your inquiry left unaddressed by me, please let me know what they are.

        • am123

          “Those of us who believe the ‘State’ are not His people, do not believe we are railing against the Most High or against His people when we accuse that ‘State’ of being illegitimate. Please let that point find its way through to you.”

          What I had in mind when speaking against those rail against the Most High and His people are those on this site who DO rail against the Israelites of the Bible, i.e. Real Deal, truth what’s his name, etc., who rail against any and all Jews and make no distinction.

          “Why would he be talking solely about Jews? Did He say so? No.”

          I think it’s pretty clear he was talking about believers:

          15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
          16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains

          —MATTHEW 24:15-16

          “At some point AFTER that event, the land will be cleansed and restored by the actual re-united kingdom – the House of Israel and the House of David restored to BETTER than their former glory.”

          If we don’t know now who is who (i.e. “Even Judah does not know who Judah is”), then how in your mind would we know the state of Israel would be legitimate at that point, what would be different then vs. now?

          “If there are areas of your inquiry left unaddressed by me, please let me know what they are.”

          Yes, I would like to know how or where you fit chapter 11 of Romans into your eschatology.

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          “I think it’s pretty clear he was talking about believers…”

          Believers in what, exactly?

          “If we don’t know now who is who (i.e. “Even Judah does not know who Judah is”), then how in your mind would we know the state of Israel would be legitimate at that point, what would be different then vs. now?”

          Firstly, we lack an utter destruction of Jerusalem:

          “Seest thou these great buildings? (and the Temple in particular, per Matthew 24:2) There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

          That hasn’t happened yet.

          Secondly, on both occasions when Israel (first) and Judah (second) were brought into the land, they were led by an appointed leader. Their arrival and return was accompanied by the unmistakable tokens of God’s presence and His Right Arm.

          Thirdly, we lack the Second Exodus – which, once it has occurred, the first exodus from Egypt will pale into insignificance:

          “Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The LORD liveth, that brought up THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither He had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.”

          Has this happened yet? And are these verses specific to the Tribe of Judah? No and no. These verses undoubtedly refer to all Israel, and not only to one twelfth of it. When this event occurs, there will be no mistaking it. THAT is how we will know that the people being brought into the land, by HIS hand, are indeed the authentic members of the kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah combined.

          “I would like to know how or where you fit chapter 11 of Romans into your eschatology.”

          Romans 11 is problematic only for those who believe the Ashkenazim are Judah. As we see:

          “Hath God cast away His people?”

          It is written that God has not cast away His people, but that a remnant shall return. Because a segment of the world’s population self-identifying as Jews managed to insert themselves into that land, should it be a foregone conclusion that they are who they say they are? Should we not also compare ALL SCRIPTURE with what we are told about these people by the people themselves? Does the Jewish arrival into the land match what Scripture teaches about the return of Israel? Not even close. Paul continues:

          “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace…”

          As clearly there is a remnant of ISRAEL – not of Judah only – living in this world. We know this for a fact because it is written that the remnant shall return to inhabit the land. Their return will be accompanied by enormous and visible events and signs. Events and signs we lack utterly when considering the Jewish State of Israel. More from Paul:

          “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded…”

          Blinded. Now the people living in the land certainly fall – for the most part – into that category. But what does that prove? It proves nothing. The simple fact is that the blind members of all twelve tribes are dispersed to the four corners of the land. But of itself, blindness in no way proves an authentic member of the tribe of Judah. Thus Paul:

          “Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy…”

          Is Paul speaking of past or future events? I suggest Paul is speaking of past events. Judah no longer knows who he is. That jealousy certainly occurred when Peter and the Apostles were alive, as we read plainly in Scripture.

          But what have we here?

          “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness IN PART is happened TO ISRAEL, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”

          Blindness. To Judah? Why not stick strictly with what is written. This is Israel Paul speaks of – not one tribe only.

          “And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob…”

          From Judah? No. From Jacob.

          What you look for hasn’t happened yet brother. The Devil has done what he does best. He planted a fake people in that land and even flies his flag over their heads. The Jewish religion is a wholly demonic perversion of anything related to Scripture. Case-in-point:

          http://parablesblog.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2015-04-02T17:12:00-04:00&max-results=1&start=4&by-date=false

          That alone would not disqualify them from being the authentic people of Judah. We read how rebellious the entire House of Israel was. But this is something different. This is a counterfeit. And consider the mileage our Enemy will gain if and when that people is wiped off the map in a real holocaust of nuclear fire. Confusion will have reached critical mass and the apostasy from our faith will be at its worst ever.

        • am123

          “Believers in what, exactly?”

          Jesus.

          We are not as far apart as one might believe at first glance, for you said:

          “What you look for hasn’t happened yet brother.”

          …and:

          “Their return will be accompanied by enormous and visible events and signs. Events and signs we lack utterly when considering the Jewish State of Israel.”

          Yes, but what if enormous and visible events and signs took place with believers in Messiah doing the things Jesus did and even greater things, just like it says in the Bible, something like this when the sons of God spoken of in CHP 8 of ROM are revealed:

          /alternative/2013/02/the-sons-of-god-are-going-to-astound-the-world-2565258.html

          And at the same time, the second Exodus you spoke of takes place as the one I have been speaking of, a modern day Cyrus, the rider on the white horse, tramples the nations and brings forth the 12 tribes of Israel from around the world unto Jerusalem and Israel, and Mr. 666 is in there some place, and everything plays out as written in the Word, and it all takes place against the backdrop of modern day Jerusalem and Israel, would we be in agreement then?

          Kind of a trick question isn’t it? :wink: :lol:

          “This is Israel Paul speaks of – not one tribe only.”

          I agree.

          “The Jewish religion is a wholly demonic perversion of anything related to Scripture.”

          What if the Jewish religion consists of the law of Moses? Speaking of which Walter, I’d like to get your take on the law of Moses. Though I could have missed it of course, but I do not recall you ever putting forth your view here on BIN regarding the law of Moses in relation to the end times and Millennial Reign and beyond. My take is the law of Moses will be practiced in a temple in Jerusalem during the Millennial Reign but will also be brought forth in modern day Israel by the modern day Cyrus I spoke of above. The law of Moses is tied in with this present heavens and earth and will not and cannot be done away with until this present heavens and earth are done away with after the Millennium when we get a new heavens and new earth. It is then and only then that the law of Moses will be done away with permanently and the rules and regulations of the ceremonial temple of the LORD as spoken of by Ezekiel will be in place from that time onward for all time to come. So what is your take on the law of Moses WALTER on that whole time period I cited or if you’d rather just limit your answer to the time period between now and the Second Coming, I would be curious as to how you believe the law of Moses comes into play or not.

          “Romans 11 is problematic only for those who believe the Ashkenazim are Judah.”

          I am not so much interested in the problematic side of ROM 11 but rather the positive side, the mystery that Israel will finally find Jesus as Messiah, that is what I am interested in as far how do you fit that—the veil being lifted for the 12 tribes—into your eschatology?

          “Blinded. Now the people living in the land certainly fall – for the most part – into that category. But what does that prove? It proves nothing.”

          Their blindness doesn’t prove anything but it is a qualification for the veil to be lifted from their eyes, and that is what I’m talking about when I say I want to know how you fit that into your eschatology, as I still am not getting that. I merely want to know where in your scenario do you put the piece de resistance—Israel finally coming to know Jesus as Messiah?

          “But this is something different. This is a counterfeit. And consider the mileage our Enemy will gain if and when that people is wiped off the map in a real holocaust of nuclear fire.”

          You see modern day Israel as a counterfeit. I see it as a stage that is set for the end times to play out. Here’s to hoping we can come into agreement at some point between now and the Second Coming.

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          am123 wrote:

          “…and it all takes place against the backdrop of modern day Jerusalem and Israel, would we be in agreement then?”

          I would agree that nothing I find in Scripture eliminates your suggestion as a possibility. One possible objection would be your looking to a Gentile leader like Cyrus, and not to an Israelite leader like Joshua or Zerubbabel. The prophecy of Daniel suggests strongly that the Man of Sin (whom I take to be the king of the North) winds up facing some stiff opposition from parts ‘South.’ Could this be the white rider? I cannot say.

          “What if the Jewish religion consists of the law of Moses?”

          The Jewish religion consists of a bastardized or an inverted version of the Law of Moses. Inversions would include for example; whereas Scripture teaches the day begins in the beginning of the day, the rabbis teach it begins at the end of the day. Scripture instructs that the year begins in the spring – the rabbi’s Rosh Hashanah is in the fall. Bastardizations would include; sha’atnez (not mixing fabric for the ‘garment’ with which one covers himself) – the rabbis employ a microscope in their search for errant woolen fibers in a linen cloth. But the Apostle Paul shows us the true nature of statutes like sha’atnez when he says things like:

          “For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?”

          am123 continues:

          “Speaking of which Walter, I’d like to get your take on the law of Moses. Though I could have missed it of course, but I do not recall you ever putting forth your view here on BIN regarding the law of Moses in relation to the end times and Millennial Reign and beyond.”

          We’ve discussed this at length, you and I. No? The Law stands today as it has always done. We are not under the Law, as Paul explained, but he also explained what he meant by that. The Law, the Instructions, are a code of conduct for right living. That is what they are. We are instructed how to live by the Law, according to the will of God. Does that seem like something that should or even could be done away with as long as we are in this world as haphazard and chaotic, beast-nature-driven, men and women? Never. The Law stands. Messiah is the High Priest of the Melchizedeckian order, and not of the Levitical order, and we are under the authority of Messiah, not of Aaron. But the Instructions enumerated and explained in the Books of Moses absolutely remain in force to this day, and will so remain at least until the creation of new Heavens and a new Earth. And the way I understand it, that takes us right though the thousand year reign of Messiah on Earth.

          “It is then and only then that the law of Moses will be done away with permanently and the rules and regulations of the ceremonial temple of the LORD as spoken of by Ezekiel will be in place from that time onward for all time to come.”

          Scripture doesn’t say the Law of Moses will be terminated. Only that it abides, wholly-intact, AT LEAST until Heaven and Earth pass away. Perhaps it abides throughout the ages.

          “…what I am interested in as far how do you fit that—the veil being lifted for the 12 tribes—into your eschatology?”

          It will happen exactly as written. It seems to me that process will occur over time, as the doubters are given the opportunity to ‘see’ with their own eyes. “Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”

          “Their blindness doesn’t prove anything but it is a qualification for the veil to be lifted from their eyes…”

          Blindness isn’t a qualification. It is a prerequisite. Many who are blind will never see until they are shown, just as Thomas was shown.

          “…where in your scenario do you put the piece de resistance—Israel finally coming to know Jesus as Messiah?”

          The remnant in Messiah’s Kingdom, but then all Israel (the vast remainder) will come to know Messiah AFTER His reign on Earth and perhaps during the second and third harvest (resurrection). Those who believe now need not be shown. Some will be shown at their resurrection to Judgment and others will be shown at their resurrection to wrath.

          “You see modern day Israel as a counterfeit. I see it as a stage that is set for the end times to play out.”

          I see it as both.

          “Here’s to hoping we can come into agreement at some point between now and the Second Coming.”

          Brother – the only things we have to agree on are the things we already DO agree on. The salvational issues are not in dispute between us. Should we hope for more than that before the end of this age? As for the rest – when we begin to see these things play our, our speculation will be replaced by our witness.

        • am123

          “One possible objection would be your looking to a Gentile leader like Cyrus, and not to an Israelite leader like Joshua or Zerubbabel.”

          10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

          11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from A FAR COUNTRY: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

          —ISAIAH 46:10-11

          “We’ve discussed this at length, you and I. No?”

          Yes, but I’m looking for some more clarification. It sounds like perhaps you are more in agreement with Truthseeker’s view on this (I haven’t seen that old codger around these parts lately), that the law of Moses won’t be done away with ever, as you said, “Perhaps it abides throughout the ages”. Doesn’t HEB 8:13 indicate it will be done away with? I’m talking about the rules and regulations with regards to animal sacrifices, is that what you’re talking about? Do you believe that is what we’re dealing with in the Millennium? And I submit that the law of Moses will not abide in the new earth, for the rules and regulations of the temple will be in accordance to Ezekiel’s temple, which are wholly different than the law of Moses. But that’s a whole other subject itself, maybe we can discuss it in detail some other time.

          “when we begin to see these things play our, our speculation will be replaced by our witness”

          Indeed.

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          “…the man that executeth my counsel from A FAR COUNTRY…”

          A far country, yes, but who is disbursed into all lands – even into every far country? I see nothing here that requires a Gentile. Rather, I see our first and second examples as an indicative of a member of the House of Israel being that man from a far country – unless that far country is in fact not even a country of this world. King David? Messiah Himself? Recall that there is no body of Christianity separate from the House of Israel. If you are a follower of Messiah, and do the things He asked us to do, then you are Israel. You are the seed of Abraham. Paul was unambiguous on this point. Many of those who identify as Christians are indeed Israel. Most of them are not. This deals with Paul’s analogy of the native and the wild branches of the same Vine.

          Doesn’t (Hebrews) 8:13 indicate it (the Law) will be done away with?

          Does it?

          Hebrews 8:10

          “For this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel after those days, saith The Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, and WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a people.”

          So if the first covenant will pass away (to be replaced by a new), does the Law pass away with it? Hardly. This verse makes it clear to me that obeying the Law will not be an issue at all because then, we will have become ‘hard-wired’ to obey it, as a matter of course. This is related, I believe, to Messiah saying to the Jews persecuting Him:

          “I can of Mine own Self do nothing…”

          Messiah couldn’t NOT obey the Law. This point is incompatible with the doctrine of free will – which is a false teaching. Freedom of choice is not free will. One has free will, and He is not us. Messiah doesn’t have free will. Satan doesn’t have free will. Scripture makes it plain that the Assyrian (the Man of Sin) doesn’t have free will. We’re kidding ourselves if we think WE have free will. We have no such thing.

          “I’m talking about the rules and regulations with regards to animal sacrifices, is that what you’re talking about?”

          Before when I highlighted the difference between the orders Melchizedek vs. Levi, I touched on this point. Paul was made chargeable for himself and at least two others whose vows had expired. That money would most certainly have been paid to the Temple for animals to sacrifice. Does animal sacrifice abide? I am uncertain. Perhaps animal sacrifice for SIN has been fulfilled and completed. Perhaps animal sacrifice has been fulfilled and completed entirely. I am of the belief that after the Restoration of All Things, which I take to be in the New Heavens and the New Earth, there will no longer be killing and eating of animals, just as there was no killing and eating of animals by Adam and Eve in the Garden. So whether at this time animal sacrifice has been abolished in whole or in part, I believe that practice will no longer be performed after Messiah’s reign on this Earth. I also speculate that animal sacrifice was unique to the order of Levi and finds no place in the order of Melchizedek.

          “I submit that the law of Moses will not abide in the new earth, for the rules and regulations of the temple will be in accordance to Ezekiel’s temple, which are wholly different than the law of Moses.”

          Possible. Messiah’s words in Matthew 5:18 leave ample room for such an understanding.

        • am123

          OK, thanks for doing the iron thing Walter. I think we have run the course on the subject at hand. Unless of course, you want to talk about free will, which you brought up.

          “Messiah doesn’t have free will.”

          But Jesus said:

          “Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”
          — Luke 22:42

          You can choose to answer this or not, it is your choice. :wink:

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          “The Son can do nothing of himself…”

          That’s nothing to do with free will.

          “For that which I do, I allow not; for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.”

          That’s nothing to do with free will.

          We do not have free will. We have, exactly as Adam and Eve had, freedom of choice. And the choices are, in all cases, reducible to two: We may choose the Tree of Life; or we may choose the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

          “He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.”

        • am123

          “We may choose the Tree of Life; or we may choose the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.”

          That is free will.

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          Being limited to two choices is being limited.

          There is no room for freedom of will in that model.

          Freedom of choice. Did you not see what Paul wrote? He sums it up perfectly. If we WILLED to be like Messiah, we would be like Him. am123… why don’t you WILL to be like Messiah? You aren’t perfect like Him, so you must not have will to be perfect as He was. Why not? But it is your will to be as He is, isn’t it.

          See the picture?

          Freedom of choice only.

          Our will does not equate with our actions. And none of us can add a cubit to our height — whether we will it or not.

        • am123

          Walter said:
          ““The Son can do nothing of himself…”

          That’s nothing to do with free will.”

          ————-

          I agree, that’s nothing to do with free will :wink:

          I take it to mean that the only works Jesus could do was the works He saw the Father doing and so it has nothing to do with free will. I believe it speaks to being in the will of God.

        • am123

          “Being limited to two choices is being limited.”

          Many choices are either an A or B choice. But that does not mean people don’t have a free will to do either A or B.

        • am123

          In the Scripture you alluded to Walter, do we not see the free will of the Son a couple verses later in verse 21 below?

          19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

          20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

          21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the SON QUICKENETH WHOM HE WILL.

          —JOHN 5:19-21

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          The Son quickens whom He sees the Father quicken.

          That much is clearly explained, in that the Son can do nothing, and does nothing, save for that which He sees the Father doing.

          And you have yet to address Paul’s summation of our condition, which is the polar opposite of free will.

          Polar opposite, AM.

        • am123

          “And you have yet to address Paul’s summation of our condition”

          And you have yet to address Luke 22:42, which clearly indicates Jesus has free will.

          John 5:21 is another example explicitly declaring the Son has free will.

          Regarding Paul’s summation, Paul is talking about the struggle between the flesh and spirit. We struggle sometimes with our flesh, which if we choose to submit to, we end up doing not do what in our spirit we want to do.

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          AM,

          How on Earth is “not my will, but yours” any indication of free will?

          Messiah asked for a pass from what was coming. His will was not to continue. The Father’s will was different from Messiah’s will. Messiah said what He said as the utmost refutation of free will.

          NOT My will.

          I’m baffled how someone in the pro-free will seat would point to this verse as supposedly furthering his cause.

        • am123

          Jesus had a will that was different than the Father’s will, as you admit. And He willingly deferred to the Father’s will. He chose not to do what He wanted. If Jesus didn’t have free will, His will would not have been different than the Father’s will.

          And we can see this is true with mankind as well. We all have free wills, otherwise, everything that happens would be the will of God, and that is not the case.

      • am123

        Regarding the whole real Jews vs. fake Jews, this idea is debatable enough that a Hebrew University historian calls this whole Khazar thing false:

        “The claim that today’s Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Khazars who converted in the Middle Ages is a myth, according to new research by a Hebrew University historian.”

        http://forward.com/articles/200825/why-ashkenazi-jews-are-not-descended-from-khazars/

        • Mayhem

          The Jews, who are not, run the entire planets higher education system, am 123, and that quote is just about exactly what i would expect them to say.

          A couple of thoughts regarding your conversation with WALTER:

          It seems to me that you translate “Torah” into “The Law” and possibly see it as a burdensome thing. I understand it as the “instructions” or “teachings” of God and not a burden given that Jesus fulfilled them.

          Regarding freewill: for your argument to hold sway there would need to be a third option, for example…

          A – Do this, or
          B – Do that, or
          C – Do any other thing that you want.

          … the difference being the first two are “given” options and the third comes from “self”.

          My thanks, gentlemen, for your considerable efforts.

        • am123

          “It seems to me that you translate “Torah” into “The Law” and possibly see it as a burdensome thing.”

          No, I am not talking about the Torah, I’m talking about the “Law of Moses” as used in this context:

          “Then Jehoiada placed the oversight of the temple of the Lord in the hands of the Levitical priests, to whom David had made assignments in the temple, to present the burnt offerings of the Lord as written in the Law of Moses, with rejoicing and singing, as David had ordered.”
          —2 Chronicles 23:18

          “and observe what the Lord your God requires: Walk in obedience to him, and keep his decrees and commands, his laws and regulations, as written in the Law of Moses. Do this so that you may prosper in all you do and wherever you go”
          —1 Kings 2:3

          And I don’t see it as a burden. The law shows us what sin is.

          Regarding what you said about free will, having a third option is not a requirement for free will to be exercised. Free will is exercised when there are only 2 choices. For example, you can choose to respond to this comment or not. Either you do or you don’t, your choice.

        • Scanner Darko

          “Free will is exercised when there are only 2 choices. For example, you can choose to respond to this comment or not. Either you do or you don’t, your choice”

          Back to Walter’s point, how free will is the choice that has been laid before you…

          You can choose to comment or not, but does free will grant you the ability to usurp control over this website from the BIN staff at the snap of your fingers?

          Can we manipulate our favorite foods to materialize before our eyes?

          No.

          Every moment of every day, we have had two choices. Nothing more, nothing less. What you describe, am123, is not free will. Free will only applies to the Most High.

        • am123

          “Every moment of every day, we have had two choices.”

          You go to a restaurant and you have many items to choose from and you exercise your free will to order what you want.

          But again, why isn’t a choice of 2 things free will? Neither you, Mayhem, or Walter have been able to explain that.

        • Damien

          This is all gone into in the philosophy of Epictetus – a contemporary of the Apostles and which might gives you an idea of will that the people of that time had

          I think that it is not ‘free will’ but freedom of the will once it has emptied itself of the world of the flesh and others and other things and their own free will and actions.

          “There is only one way to happiness and that is to cease worrying about things which are beyond the power of our will.”

          Epictetus

          “Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.”

          Luke 22:42

          “No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.”

          John 10:18

          http://thinkexist.com/quotation/if-you-want-to-improve-be-content-to-be-thought/354645.html

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          “But again, why isn’t a choice of 2 things free will? Neither you, Mayhem, or Walter have been able to explain that.”

          We are born to a situation in which we are without choice, in that we are placed into the world and expected to choose between two alternatives. What if it is not my will to be asked to choose? (Which is not the case, because I defer to the Father’s wisdom – but for the sake of this question, what if?) That is why a choice between two alternatives does not equate with free will.

          “And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart…”

          Is that free will AM?

          “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him…”

          Is that free will?

        • am123

          “And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart…”

          I never said God couldn’t override a person’s free will. For we are all pottery and some pottery is for special purposes and other pottery is for everyday use. God does control the totality of all things. And in Pharaoh’s case, God had a purpose to play out using the “Pharaoh pottery”, if you will.

          I do not extrapolate that to mean that just because God overrode Pharoah’s will then God overrides all men’s wills. But if you do, then my question to you is this: does it follow then that you maintain that all things that all men do, the good, the bad, and the ugly, is all God’s will?

        • am123

          “What if it is not my will to be asked to choose?”

          Here then is your third choice, you could choose to make no choices whatsever, just do nothing, do not eat, do not drink, do nothing and then just die.

          I’m still not getting why an A or B choice is not free will.

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          There is no third choice, AM.

          “He that is not with Me, is against Me…”

          Two choices. Only. Ever.

          In all cases, the situations we find ourselves in are ultimately reducible to two.

          Choice between two only. Not free will.

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          “I never said God couldn’t override a person’s free will.”

          You’re not being very strict with the rules of language, AM. Free will is either free or it isn’t. Sometimes free will doesn’t really qualify for the job description, does it?

          I suggest that all of our wills are ‘over-ridden’ on a more-or-less constant basis.

          Free will is an illusion.

          And this shouldn’t be a problem for any of us, because free will was never promised to anyone in Scripture. The entire idea is merely another doctrine of the traditions of men.

        • am123

          “Two choices. Only. Ever.”

          We have free will to choose which choice. If there was only ONE choice, then there would be no free will.

          A day will come when there will be no free will—for every knee shall bow unto Jesus and every tongue will confess He is LORD. But in the meantime, the greatest treasure belongs to those who freely CHOOSE Him now. Mankind has a choice right now, we are not compelled to choose Him. God’s not looking for robots, He’s looking for those who freely choose Him. If there is no choice, there’s no point in proclaiming the Gospel.

          And free will is supported by Scripture. Those that gather together with bad intentions against the blessed of the LORD in verse 15 below do not do so by the will of God:

          14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

          15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

          —Isaiah 54:14-15

          I rest my case.

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          “If there is no choice, there’s no point in proclaiming the Gospel.”

          That’s not my argument. You see me arguing choice, and drawing a clear distinction between free will and freedom to choose.

          “Those that gather together with bad intentions against the blessed of the LORD in verse 15 below do not do so by the will of God…”

          I submit that nothing happens in this world, or in any other, which is contrary to the will of God.

        • Crazy times

          Your answer is

          He (God) foresaw from all eternity who would, in the exercise of their own free-will, respond to his purpose, and, in virtue of such foreknowledge, preordained them to glory.

          Its call doctrine of predestination …also known as Calvinism

          The Calvinistic view is that God from all eternity,out of the mere good pleasure of his will, selected certain persons out of mankind to be the heirs of glory.

          Which is YOU if you are called to faith in Y’shua and born of His Spirit from the Lord of HOSTS

          Romans 8:29
          28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.…

          When one reads this you are clearly left with the view it’s ALL GODS will …be done, not yours …this then reverts back to the top again as mentioned

          He (God) foresaw from all eternity who would, in the exercise of their own free-will, respond to his purpose, and, in virtue of such foreknowledge, preordained them to glory.

          Take for instance God foreknew that man would fall and would have to send His Son to redeem us, So on the Forth day God created the Stars and put in place THE Star of Bethlehem thousands of years before Y’suha was born in Bethlehem ..get it !!….It’s His for knowledge then can be said to be predestined indicating His will… thy WILL be done.

          This is actually your ASSURANCE of Salvation as HE is the one who will hold you in his hand till you are glorified…. all His WORK …remember he takes a lump of clay and with His right hand takes a portion and throws the rest away and with this portion fashions a beautiful thing in His hands…

          Just be grateful which ever side you choose :wink: haha

          Furthermore the ALL knowing God as ALSO predestined Israel in the BIG PICTURE as mentioned you just have to RECOGNIZE it.

        • Damien

          Crazy Times

          He (God) foresaw from all eternity who would, in the exercise of their own free-will, respond to his purpose, and, in virtue of such foreknowledge, preordained them to glory.

          ——————–

          That’s NOT Calvinism. The Calvinist view is that it’s all Gods will. People exercise of their own free will plays no part whatsoever in their salvation. God chooses the saved and God chooses the damned. Has already chosen them. There is nothing you with your own free will can do to affect or change that.

        • am123

          “You see me arguing choice, and drawing a clear distinction between free will and freedom to choose.”

          My argument is a choice between A or B is free will. If the choice is only A, then there is no free will. You have not been able to explain why a choice between 2 things is not free will.

          “I submit that nothing happens in this world, or in any other, which is contrary to the will of God”

          I object!

          Fornication happens in this world, and that is contrary to the will of God:

          “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication”
          —1 Thessalonians 4:3

          Objection sustained.

          The defense rests….for now.

        • Crazy times

          Meidan that is correct I know thank you…(“The Calvinist view is that it’s all Gods will”). i was trying to show whichever side it’s viewed from (as per the discussion), it leads to the same conclusion, that’s why I used the :wink:

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          “My argument is a choice between A or B is free will.”

          I get that, AM. Your argument is not lost on me. What you’re saying is that this:

          THOU CONDEMNED!!! Choose the method of your execution. You may choose…

          A. THE FIRING SQUAD

          …or you may choose…

          B. THE YARD ARM

          ….that this is somehow equivalent to free will.

          The condemned may then say: I choose LIFE!!!

          At which time the executioner would either choose the method for the condemned, or he would simply unholster his sidearm and shoot the condemned in the face.

          [If it seems like I’m complaining about our choices, I’m not. The example above is just an example, and not my actual comparison between Life and Death. The fact is that HE knows and we do not. Therefore, HE has limited our choice and HE has limited the scope of our existence to two paths, which are the Two Trees from the Garden.]

          The question is whether choice is synonymous with will. I maintain that, though they may both be limited, they are not synonymous. Both our choices and our wills are limited. Appropriately so. Because we are extremely limited beings.

    • Dr. Rice

      God loves Israel… I posted the Scripture. I stand on that Word. You hate Israel, ISIS hates Israel, Muslims hate Israel, Lucifer hates Israel, Obama hates Israel… That’s some party. Your theology stinks… I do not want or need to grace it with a response. I could not convince Lucifer to love Israel, I could not convince Mohamad to love Israel, I could not convince Obama to love Israel and I cannot convince you to love Israel. Until you are willing to forsake the god of this world and follow the God of Israel, you will remain in the dark. Any readers besides you two warlocks can read the Scripture I posted, they can look at your argument, they can look at your picture and your chosen name, they can consider the group of Israel haters to which you so proudly belong and they can make up their own mind. I will comment no further. Let the people read and decide. Those who decide to side with you, ISIS, Lucifer and Mohammad are welcome to do so…

      • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

        “You hate Israel…”

        Thank you for presuming to tell me what I think. Try some humility next time and consent to actually asking me what I believe. In the six years I’ve been contributing content to this website, I have yet to be asked a question on these boards that I have failed to or refused to answer. I most certainly do not hate Israel. I do not even hate those living in the land presently, calling themselves Jews. I believe they are not Jews as all, but do lie. I am commanded by my Master not to hate, not even my enemy.

        “Your theology stinks…”

        I seem to recall quoting Scripture, and doing little else besides.

        “I do not want or need to grace it with a response.”

        The Apostle Peter has instructed you to respond to the questions put to you regarding this matter. If you refuse it is because you have no answer – and not just because you feel insulted or otherwise put upon. You’ve been asked publicly to account for your belief re Ezekiel chapter 36.

        “I cannot convince you to love Israel.”

        It is not your job to convince me to love Israel. My Master has already convinced me.

        “I will comment no further.”

        Then you are a poltroon and shirker of the duty incumbent upon you as found plainly-written in the Word.

        “Let the people read and decide.”

        So they shall.

        • Simply Rivkah

          Walter wrote:

          “And if your assertion is true, then Scripture is false, wherein it is recorded that NONE will come against the people Israel once they are restored to their inheritance, according to the original allotments and in an even BETTER state then their original state of being, when led across Jordan by Joshua. How say you?”

          Scripture is never false, only mistranslated. “According to original allotments”…this still hasn’t happened, although many anti-Zionists falsely accuse them of having that as their endgame. But it’s not, and won’t be a reality until Messiah returns.

          I already explained Ezekiel 36 to you, as well as Edom’s punishment having already taken place then. But it will again be the case when Messiah returns.

          I had said in reference to Israel being reinstated as a nation being G-D’s Sovereign Will being done, vs your presupposition that it was done by the hand of the Adversary:

          “I say NO he (the Adversary) can’t (counterfeit Israel). And that is not only Biblical but speaks to the power of the G-D of the universe.”

          Walter replied:

          “In what way is your assertion biblical?”

          I GAVE YOU SCRIPTURE TO BACK UP MY STAND. JUST LIKE I DID CONCERNING EDOM.

          He is Sovereign over all the earth. “G-D reigns over the nations” Psalms 47:8, “He deposes kings and raises up others..” Daniel 2:21, “He exalts and brings low..” Psalms 75:6-7.

          Good for you to pretend good will towards the Messianic Jews, pretend you surely did because you were so very quick to go for the kill by stating that it wasn’t a real belief in Yeshua himself. You obviously know nothing of the sort.

          Walter said:

          “Jerusalem has never been destroyed as Messiah said it would be. NO stone shall be left standing upon another. Most evidently and undoubtedly, this has not occurred. Will you make Messiah a liar?”

          Do you make Messiah’s prophetic statement and fulfillment of it to be of such small importance that you’ve never bothered to study the history of when it actually occurred? Back to the history books sir. Here, I’ve taken some of the work out of it for you.

          http://www.templemount.org/destruct2.html

          As to my showing reverence in the way I refer to HaShem, and yes, following the Jewish custom, it is most definitely with good cause. As so many pretend to worship Him when in reality they are worshipping a god of their own making, I don’t want to infer my acceptance of their flawed theology in any way. You need to rid yourself of all malice and begin again sir, praying for enlightenment. Yeshua was a Jew you know, a Torah observant Jew. When you begin your studies again, keep that in mind while also striving to peel away the Greek and RCC influence to our belief, and my Jewish Messiah.

        • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

          “I already explained Ezekiel 36 to you, as well as Edom’s punishment having already taken place then. But it will again be the case when Messiah returns.”

          When Messiah returns. Would you then please explain who the Edomites are that will be punished when He returns? Moreover, where are they now, and why will they be punished for presumptuously occupying a land not their own if they are not, in fact, occupying the land?

          Re the Jews being brought into the land, supposedly by the hand of God, Rivkah yelled:

          “I GAVE YOU SCRIPTURE TO BACK UP MY STAND. JUST LIKE I DID CONCERNING EDOM.”

          I’m sorry. Did someone argue with you that the Most High is the God of all things? If he did, he wasn’t me. Your offered quotes from Scripture do absolutely nothing to negate the possibility that our Adversary is behind the State of Israel. It is true that nothing happens in this world which is contrary to the will of God – but your argument is no different than saying because of that, the hand of God is the driving force behind sodomy and behind witchcraft. Just because it happens here doesn’t mean He condones it. He lets things happen under the auspices of our Enemy all the time – wholly wicked and rebellious things which ULTIMATELY serve the purposes of our Maker.

          “Good for you to pretend good will towards the Messianic Jews, pretend you surely did because you were so very quick to go for the kill by stating that it wasn’t a real belief in Yeshua himself. You obviously know nothing of the sort.”

          My assertion is that anyone who has the Rabbis, the Talmuds or the Kabbalah in any position of authority over them, cannot follow Messiah wherever He leads. I said: “Very few Messianic Jews are standing in the Way.” I did NOT say that the belief of Messianic Jews was a false or fraudulent belief. The Instructions of our Messiah are very specific. Few of us manage to do even little of what He’s asked us to do. I hate the Talmuds and I hate the Kabbalah. I view those bodies of work as infernal. I do not hate Messianic Jews and I do not doubt that sincerity often finds its way to the synagogue on Saturdays. Please take careful note of what I do not impugn: I do not impugn their belief. I impugn ignorance of the Law, the Prophets, the Writings and the Gospel. Memorizing entire passages or even Books of Scripture is not the same as implementing the Way as it is elucidated throughout the written Word. Furthermore, please do not mistake me for boasting that I myself successfully adhere to the Word. I try to. But I am an abysmal failure in most respects. Doctrines and traditions that would contradict or negate the Word are that which I despise. Many believers in Messiah fasten themselves to these very doctrines and traditions and mistake what they do for pleasing to Him and for obedience to the Commandments.

          “Back to the history books sir. Here, I’ve taken some of the work out of it for you.”

          Are you suggesting that Jerusalem has, at any time in its history, undergone a destruction as complete as the destruction Messiah specifically explained in simple terms? Quoting myself from an above post to am123: “Seest thou these great buildings? (and the Temple in particular, per Matthew 24:2) There shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” I said it above and I’ll say it here: That hasn’t happened yet. (Any and all links provided by you notwithstanding.)

          “You need to rid yourself of all malice and begin again sir, praying for enlightenment.”

          If it is enlightenment you seek, you are praying to the wrong God. And what you mistake for malice is nothing of the kind. I do not worship at the altar of the politically correct. Neither do I seek enlightenment. I’ve given you my word that I have no ill will for Messianic Jews or for the Ashkenazim themselves. You have chosen not to believe me and to make me a liar. So be it. But consider your own witness.

          “Yeshua was a Jew you know, a Torah observant Jew.”

          Thank you for reminding me. I am a Torah pursuant seeker after the Way.

          “When you begin your studies again, keep that in mind while also striving to peel away the Greek and RCC influence to our belief, and my Jewish Messiah.”

          Were you a regular contributor to this website, you would know very well that I excoriate Roman Doctrine with enthusiasm equal to my disdain for the traditions of the rabbis. Judaism has nothing to do with Messiah. Neither does Catholicism. Both the rabbis and the papists claim the right to change what is written. If you are unaware that no man has been given such authority, then your position is most unenviable. Note well that last comment was not an invective against your belief.

      • The Real Deal

        Israel is a terrorist state you half-wit. They were responsible for 9/11. The odigo messaging service, along with the 5 dancing ISRAELIS on live TV in Israel ADMITTING to being there to document the event, is a clear case for prior knowledge. Convenient how you Jew lover’s forget that fact.

        • Dr. Rice

          Israel is God’s property and the Jews are God’s people. Those who curse Israel are cursed by the God of Israel. You are under a curse you unwashed heathen and you are too ignorant to know that… Jesus is a Jew and He was born in Israel. You cannot love Jesus and despise Israel… that is an impossibility…

    • Anonymous

      http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/netyahoojihad.jpg go see how much Israel the state loves you. rice, at least you have Jesus the Christ, when no one else loves you, he still will, if we let him.

      • Dr. Rice

        Israel is the only Nation in the Middle East where Christians are free to worship and build churches without fear or Government interference. Israel is the only Nation in the Middle East where women have equal rights. You can stand in the street in Jerusalem and talk about Jesus… you can tell the Immigration Officer at the airport that you are a Christian coming to help a Christian Church in Tel Aviv. He will let you in freely and without recourse. I dare you to try that in Tehran, Amman, Baghdad, Riyadh or any other Capital in the region… You had better be well armed and prepared to die…

    • Dr. Rice

      Zionism is a code word for those who hate Israel and the God of Israel. Zionism brought together a strange and varied group of people with opposing motives but a single goal… the reestablishment of Israel as a nation. There are religious and secular Jews, Christians, Communists, Atheists and New World Order Illuminati all of whom identify as Zionists. These are people with a thousand different motives who have come together with a single purpose.

      Those who stand with Lucifer in opposition to Israel, love to point out the bad Zionists and their evil motives. They use these people and their often evil deeds to justify their anti-Semitic beliefs and actions. They simply miss the point; ZIONISTS DID NOT BRING ABOUT THE REESTABLISHMENT OF ISRAEL, GOD DID. God used Zionists to accomplish His will and fulfill His Word. Zionists were and are a tool in the Master’s Hand… nothing more.

      Israel exists because God said Israel would exist and for no other reason whatsoever. If you choose to stand against Israel, that is your choice but understand clearly that God has promised to curse those who do so. That is God’s promise, not mine. Israel will stand regardless of what you think, say or do. You cannot undo or hinder the hand of God. The stand you have taken places you in direct confrontation with the God of the Bible. You and those who stand with you will be destroyed. That is the Word of God. You are in a very dangerous position. You are placing your opinion, your thoughts and your human wisdom above the express written opinion and will of God. In effect, you are looking Almighty God in the face and asserting that you are smarter and wiser than He is. Please understand that the consequences of such an arrogant stand are both dreadful and eternal. This is what God says about the very Israel you badmouth… Zechariah 12:8 “At that time I will be like a shield to those who live in Jerusalem. Then even the weakest among them will be great warriors like David. And David’s family line will be like the Angel of the Lord who leads them. 9 On that day I will begin to destroy all of the nations that attack Jerusalem.

      • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

        “Israel exists because God said Israel would exist and for no other reason whatsoever.”

        So, according to you, there is NO CHANCE whatsoever that the master deceiver, the master liar, the master counterfeiter, Satan himself, has instituted a deceitful lying counterfeit in order to further his own agenda and to deepen the confusion of this world. No chance.

        Your detective skills are found lacking, Doctor. As are your powers of observation and situational awareness. So too with your attention to Scriptural detail.

        And you have no answer for Ezekiel 36 – an entire chapter in one of the premier Books of Prophecy.

        “If you choose to stand against Israel, that is your choice but understand clearly that God has promised to curse those who do so. That is God’s promise…”

        Nothing but true. And we should proceed with fear in our examination of the State of Israel. The decision to accuse that entity of being a fraud and a counterfeit is not a decision lightly reached. But the decision to defend that entity, as you are doing in blindness, is folly.

        “Israel will stand regardless of what you think, say or do.”

        Yet another fact. Albeit misplaced by you. You have failed to rightly identify Israel.

        “You are in a very dangerous position.”

        Those would by my very words to you.

        “This is what God says about the very Israel you badmouth…”

        You confuse the illegitimate for the legitimate. He will protect Israel — He will protect JACOB. He will not protect ESAU, whom He hates and intends to punish.

        You can provide ten thousand verses stating plainly that God will protect Israel. And you will have done nothing to further your argument because your argument fails in the face of factual evidence and it fails in the face of Scripture.

        The State of Israel is an impostor. They are not Jacob and they are not the House of David.

      • JanCute

        Sing this tune to “Listen to the Rhythm of the Falling Rain”

        Listen to the babble of the christo-CREEPS
        Trying to make a brand new start
        But little did they know when they whined all day
        That their white-skin mangod never existed at all!

        Rain, please tell them now that no one cares.
        We wish they would all go away cause we don’t care
        Their phonemes would be elevated at the christian site
        And they’d all act like christ all day!

        Listen to the babble of the christo-CREEPS
        Trying to make a brand new start
        But little did they know when they whined all day
        That their white-skin mangod never existed at all!

        Gee BEEF JERKY,
        Lighten up, will you?

        Hey, here’s a little song for to sing to yourself.

        Sing to the tune of “Puff, the Magic Dragon”!

        HEY, everyone else on BIN!

        YOU can sing along, too!

        Beef, the magic dragon
        Puffed fire a lot
        But no more than produced
        By a regular human fart

        He thought that he was special
        Directly communicating with a mangod
        He believed every bit of the FALSE Tale
        And it affected his life a lot

        He condemned everybody
        Who did not follow his words
        And that is why BEEF JERKY
        Is just a spiritual cowardly turd

        I am fairly sure that “christian” is a kind way of saying retard :!: :!:
        :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
        Also, :idea: :idea: christo-CREEPS, Please give up all beliefs and switch to critical thinking. :wink: :wink:

        Consider, christo-CREEPS, that Jesus answers all unknowns…
        And if you don’t accept our lord and saviour jesus… I kill you! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Nothing personal!
        AND, jesus does love you, unconditionally! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

        christo-CREEPS, seriously, I’d sooner mainline speedballs into a vein in my cock than read ANY plagiarized judeo-christo-CRIMINAL all male wrote BOOK OF INSANE Babble!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
        :razz: :razz: :razz:

    • Dr. Rice

      What is wrong with people who claim to be Christian but hate Israel?

      Do you not understand? You are not saved because you are good, you are saved because God loved you and sent His Son to die for you. ISRAEL IS NOT GOD’S NATION BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD, ISRAEL IS GOD’S NATION BECAUSE GOD LOVES ISRAEL. Jews are not God’s people because they are good people. Jews are God’s people because a good God made an everlasting covenant with His friend Abraham. It was an unconditional and everlasting covenant… there is no end date and the word “if” does not appear anywhere in the covenant… If God does not love and protect Israel and the Jews, God is a liar and God is not a man that He should lie. ISRAEL IS NOT A NATION BECAUSE OF THE ZIONISTS BUT IN SPITE OF THEM. Israel is a Nation because God almighty promised, repeatedly, over and over and over that in the Last Days, He would bring the Jews home to Israel and that a Nation would be born in a day… This is not about Jews as individuals or any standard of righteousness… this is all about the faithfulness of God and His ability to work miracles and to cause to come to pass the very things He promised thousands of years ago…

      These are the promises of God concerning the Jewish People and the Land of Israel…

      “Who has ever seen or heard of anything as strange as this? Has a nation ever been born in a single day? Has a country ever come forth in a mere moment? But by the time Jerusalem’s birth pains begin, the baby will be born; the nation will come forth.” Isaiah 66:8

      “He will raise a flag among the nations for Israel to rally around. He will gather the scattered people of Judah from the ends of the earth.” Isaiah 11:12

      “‘Do not be afraid, for I am with you. I will gather you and your children from east and west and from north and south. I will bring my sons and daughters back to Israel from the distant corners of the earth. All who claim me as their God will come, for I have made them for my glory. It was I who created them.” Isaiah 43:5-7

      • Damien

        ISRAEL IS NOT A NATION BECAUSE OF THE ZIONISTS BUT IN SPITE OF THEM.

        ————

        Israel isn’t a nation. The Jews are a nation. There are Israelis who are not Jews (like Christians or Muslims). Maybe they don’t want to share a nation with 3 billion self made nationless fundies?

      • CAPTAIN CHAOS!!

        “God almighty promised, repeatedly, over and over and over that in the Last Days, He would bring the Jews home to Israel and that a Nation would be born in a day…”

        Chapter and verse please. You have just amended the Word. Again. There is nothing in Scripture about the JEWS ONLY being returned to that land near the end of the age. ISRAEL will be returned to the land. And Doctor, even if JUDAH actually returned (which they have as yet not done), JUDAH would NOT be permitted to identify as Israel. Judah is NOT Israel. The name Israel is a part of the birthright and, as such, falls squarely and solely to the House of Joseph. Usurpers have stolen the name Israel, just as surely as they have presumptuously entered into a land that is not theirs by any right.

        Then you quote Isaiah 66:8 and you deceitfully leave off this:

        “For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth HER CHILDREN…”

        Not, as you erroneously suggest: ‘she brought forth the Jews.’

        “He will raise a flag among the nations for Israel to rally around. He will gather the scattered people of Judah from the ends of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)

        Is He calling Judah Israel? No. He is describing BOTH HOUSES of the kingdom, returned and restored simultaneously.

        Isaiah 43:5-7 are yet to be fulfilled. What stands now in the holy land is an abomination that makes desolate. And it will make utterly desolate, without ONE STONE standing upon another, before the land is re-occupied by a remnant of authentic Israelites – from all 12 tribes with the possible exception of Dan (arguably to be replaced by Manasseh).

        The land of Israel has yet to be totally destroyed. It hasn’t happened yet. Not in the way Messiah said that it would happen. But it will happen. Exactly as He foretold.

      • Crazy times

        Israel is the apple of Gods Eye, He has rebuilt Zion and will Now come in His Glory …as it is written.

        King James Bible…….. Psalm 102

        This is wrote for the last generation before the coming of the Lord in His GLORY

        13Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.

        14For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.

        15So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.

        16When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

        17He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer.

        18This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.

        King James Bible…… The Redemption of Zion
        For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

        Warning !!! Don’t touch the Apple of His Eye

        Zechariah 12:2-3
        “I will make JERUSALEM a cup of trembling unto all the people round about … And in that day will I make JERUSALEM a burdensome stone for all people … (“In that day” refers to End of the Age.)

        “I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they have divided up My land.” (3:2)

        Joel 3:2
        Consider these words carefully and completely….and let the United Nations be warned….let the United States be warned….let the European Union be warned….let the Arab League be warned….let the Palestinian Authority be warned….let Hamas be warned…in fact all the enemies of Israel be warned ….as it is written.

        Beware !! The Lord remembers his covenant with Jacob and He has chosen this land as His.

        Psalm 83 is next war and it will be another resounding Victory for Israel….as it is written.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lj7PZT4j3Q

        • Crazy times

          Even those (My People as above….Gods says the remaining third (refined) at His coming)…will look on Him whom they have pierced.

          Zechariah 12:10
          “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

          Revelation 1:7
          “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.

        • am123

          If you could only make sense like this when it comes to the rapture :wink: :lol:

    • Amminadab

      THE CHRISTIAN TODAY IS CONSIDERED ISRAEL
      PROPHETIC STATEMENT

      Genesis 49:10, “The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.”

      Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

      PROPHETIC STATEMENT REPEATED BY CHRIST (He is speaking to Jews here)

      Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

      PROPHECY FULFILLED

      Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
      Romans 2:28,29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
      Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
      Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

      Also notice what Jesus Himself said to the Jews…

      Mark 12:1-12, “And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard. And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty. And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled. And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some. Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours. And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: This was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.”

      ANOTHER PROPHETIC FACT…

      Jeremiah 31:35-37, “Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.”

      • Simply Rivkah

        I don’t hold out much hope in changing your view sir but as it looks that you purport to be a man of G-D, I will pray for you. Replacement Theology is a very false teaching. One that only leads to more antisemitism. G-D’s Covenant with the Jewish people is everlasting and therefore not conditional. His purpose for them will be fulfilled. They are the natural branches, are they not? We have only been grafted in, not taken their place.

        • Damien

          They consider themselves to be ‘Israel’. They NEVER consider their church to be the ‘Jews’ it antedates.

          Only Fundie Murican Christian Zionists would think that.

        • Crazy times

          Ahhha the rapture, better not go there atm :wink: glad to c u take a stand for our other sheep, as “Salvation is of the Jews” ,without them we would not have anything.. I/we owe them a great debt of gratitude so its a privilege to stand with any others in their defense as they have many enemies in this world who claim they are a counterfeit.

          16When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

          It does not say The Lord shall build up Zion… a third time ? before He comes in His Glory.

          Matt 24 1-3,32,33,34

          In fact we are Instructed to RECOGNIZE the time of his appearing That HE IS NEAR, RIGHT AT THE DOOR..( in the parable of the fig tree)

          I would also conclude if one struggles with this meaning One does NOT have the Holy Spirit within and is NOT born again, as it’s the Spirit of Truth the comforter which confirms to us we have the TRUTH.

          Furthermore a person who denies the trinity cannot see the kingdom of God nor enter it. imho you have your creed but it’s NOT mine.

          Looking at the parable of the fig tree it does not say wait for it to be totally destroyed again and rebuilt and destroyed again, then he will be at the door !!!

          No’ No’ these who are in Jerusalem are the people God, as the LORD said

          Jeremiah 31:10King James Version (KJV)

          10 Hear the word of the Lord, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

          Clearly then from the Parable and this declaration the JEWS in Israel are His people to be refined by fire and a third chosen, who will look on Him the one whom they have pierced.
          As the lord says when you see all these things RECOGNIZE.

          The lesson of the Fig Tree
          …33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34″Truly I say to you, THIS GENERATION will not pass away until all these things take place.

          Maranatha

        • Crazy times

          You are correct in saying the god of this world has many counterfeits, no less even within Christendom,They the people of Israel have raised up the STAR Act 7:43 and angered God in doing so, agreed, many do not know the deep dark secrets of the Illuminati and whence all this symbolism comes from, these are those who are of the Synagogue of Satan, goats amongst the sheep, and there are those who are amongst us in Christendom , Foxes in sheep cloths, tares amongst the wheat. BOTH have been infiltrated by Satan from the beginning, as he masquerades as an Angle of light.

          Now The Miracle that is the “State of Israel” is clear to see for those who know how it all went down on the battlefield this has baffled all the politicians and diplomats, the valley of dry bones became a Nation. There is no way apart from prophetic eschatological that the rebirth of Israel can be explained it was a miracle.

          In 1948 even General George Marshall said there will be no Jews in Israel in six weeks ( Satan tried his best in the first 8 days to destroy what GOD had done …He failed and the Nation survived. as it is written.

          If they had lost as SATAN intended there would be no UN resolution to claim they put them there !, consider how Satan had prevented Moses from entering the promised land by filling this area with Giants to ensure the birth of Y’shua would not happen, Only Satan would NOT allow a modern State of Israel to exist today, to be the place of His return as He promised,

          BUT GOD gave back the land and gave back the Language as He promised in scripture and also declares they would be fruitful and sell this product to all the world, the Jaffa Orange,and would become cattle herders (Red Hefer ) So if He said that then, THIS MUST BE the PEOPLE GOD intended to be there NOW (Against all Odds), who He would then refine a final Remanent 1/3 as 2/3 will be cut off in the final battle (Ezekiel) who would look on Him whom THEY have pierced.

          I’ve been to Israel many times and the temple of Herod is gone except for the wailing wall that’s WHY they Wail..it was all destroyed, just as Y’shua prophesied about the TEMPLE.

          Satan’s intention was from the beginning NOT to allow the promised land to be owned and inhabited by God people, history and scripture have proven he tried his best ,but YHWH thwarted all his Lies and Snares. I really have trouble believing Satan would let them back a second time to fulfill the Lords return?. He tried his best to stop them as history has shown .

          Imho the existence of Israel proves GODS WILL as He said in the upcoming wars He will glorify himself in front of the gentile Nations to declare He is the Lord the protector of Israel.

          We are at the End of the church age the Judge is at the door a Bride for the Son a Wife for the Father… Israel His Inheritance.

          Genesis 3:20
          Eve was the mother of ALL living, this twisting of scripture to demonize this race is from the Father of Lies…SATAN….the meaning of synagogue of Satan is because they raised up the STAR a demonic symbol Act 7:43 and are in denial atm.

          Maranatha

    • Amminadab

      “The Jews had misinterpreted God’s promise of eternal favor to Israel: “Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is His name: If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever. Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.” Jeremiah 31:35-37. The Jews regarded their natural descent from Abraham as giving them a claim to this promise. But they overlooked the conditions which God had specified. Before giving the promise, He had said, “I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people. . . . For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jeremiah 31:33, 34. {DA 106.1}

      To a people in whose hearts His law is written, the favor of God is assured. They are one with Him. But the Jews had separated themselves from God. Because of their sins they were suffering under His judgments. This was the cause of their bondage to a heathen nation. Their minds were darkened by transgression, and because in times past the Lord had shown them so great favor, they excused their sins. They flattered themselves that they were better than other men, and entitled to His blessings. {DA 106.2}

      These things “are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.” 1 Corinthians 10:11. How often we misinterpret God’s blessings, and flatter ourselves that we are favored on account of some goodness in us! God cannot do for us that which He longs to do. His gifts are used to increase our self-satisfaction, and to harden our hearts in unbelief and sin. {DA 106.3}

      John declared to the teachers of Israel that their pride, selfishness, and cruelty showed them to be a generation of vipers, a deadly curse to the people, rather than the children of just and obedient Abraham. In view of the light they had received from God, they were even worse than the heathen, to whom they felt so much superior. They had forgotten the rock whence they were hewn, and the hole of the pit from which they had been digged. God was not dependent upon them for the fulfilling of His purpose. As He had called Abraham out from a heathen people, so He could call others to His service. Their hearts might now appear as lifeless as the stones of the desert, but His Spirit could quicken them to do His will, and receive the fulfillment of His promise. {DA 106.4}

      “And now also,” said the prophet, “the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” Not by its name, but by its fruit, is the value of a tree determined. If the fruit is worthless, the name cannot save the tree from destruction. John declared to the Jews that their standing before God was to be decided by their character and life. Profession was worthless. If their life and character were not in harmony with God’s law, they were not His people. {DA 107.1}

    • Anonymous

      WOW. How did I miss this until just now?

      Interesting debate here.

      Dr. Rice, I’m glad you wrote an article that brought these people here, who now are engaged in discussion of the matter of free will…

      But what, exactly, compelled you to do such a thing?

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